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toltommy
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:12 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
LHR service began in 2008, though I seem to recall reading DL flew a 747 in the early 1970s to LHR?


Perhaps in was a interchange flight with PA back then, Only PA and TW had LHR access back then, so there's no way DL flew their own 747 to LHR in the 70's.
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Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:22 pm

toltommy wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
LHR service began in 2008, though I seem to recall reading DL flew a 747 in the early 1970s to LHR?


Perhaps in was a interchange flight with PA back then, Only PA and TW had LHR access back then, so there's no way DL flew their own 747 to LHR in the 70's.


Delta flew their 747's into LHR then, but yes, it was interchange with PA. Someone else confirmed it earlier in this thread.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:24 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
AA started DFW-LGW on a 747-100 in 1982, when it took over the route authority from the demise of Braniff. The equipment changed to a DC-10-30 in 1984 when the 747 classics were traded for DC-10-30s from Pan Am, who in turn inherited them from the National merger. DFW-FRA and DFW-ORY were added in 1985, both on DC-10-30s.

The next expansion came in 1986, with ORD-ORY, ORD-FRA, ORD-MAN, ORD-DUS-MUC and ORD-ZRH-GVA added on new delivery 767-200ERs. 1987 saw JFK-ORY and JFK-FRA added on DC-10-30s, which were replaced with the 767-300 on ORY and the 767-200 on FRA the following year. 1988 saw AA add DFW-MAD.

1989 brought RDU-ORY(763), ORD-ARN(762), JFK-LYS(762), JFK-BRU-HAM (763), and ORD-BRU-DUS(763) into the network. When STR was added as a tag from JFK-ZRH, the JFK-ORY flight added a tag to GVA. The ORD-ZRH flight added a tag to MUC.

A lot of routes were cut in early 1990, because the aircraft were needed to start up the new Deep South American routes out of MIA that were purchased from Eastern. JFK lost nonstops to LYS and FRA, and the tags to GVA, HAM and STR were discontinued. ORD-DUS got back to the original tag to MUC, eventually they were operated as separate flights in the mid 90s.

Late 1990 brought ORD-LGW, and then 1991 was a big year when the LHR routes were purchased from TWA. LHR was served from JFK using a mix of 747SP, 762, 763 and DC-10-30s. MIA, LAX and EWR to LHR were flown on the 763, and BOS was initially served by domestic configured DC-10-10s until more 763s were delivered. JFK-MAN and JFK-LGW were also added on the 762. JFK-LGW didn’t last long, less than a year.

That’s about all I remember from 31 years of flying these routes. More might come to mind.


This is awesome. Thank you for sharing. JFK-LYS, as I recall was very short lived (less than a year) and I remember an F/A friend telling my family (I was only 16 then so I don't remember all the details) saying it almost never went out full. There is a long history of US-France (non Paris) service that quickly ended. Other than NCE, the market can't seem to support anything beyond Paris, then and now. DL tried to revive JFK-LYS in the late 2000s with a 757 and it was quickly dropped. AF tried flights on A310's from Boardeaux, Strasbourg, and one other French city that I now do not recall, and they were quickly axed.

I think in 1989 AA started RDU-ORY as well. It lasted into the early 1990s and flown with the 762.


LYS was the first transatlantic IFS (International Flagship Service) trip I worked as a new hire F/A. The highest load I ever saw on the flight was about 90 passengers total on the 762. It was an awesome trip to work, very friendly passengers, Satolas was a cute little airport, and the people in the city itself were very sweet. It had that small town feel to it. The food was incredible, naturally, and I remember one trip I flew that some senior flight attendants made reservations to go to Paul Bocuse. Those were the days! We got to know some people who worked in restaurants where we were regulars, and I remember when we told them that AA was pulling out of LYS, some of them even cried. We were crushed to be leaving, I remember my last trip in February or March of 1990.

RDU-ORY was originally flown on the 763, because all 4 flights into ORY were on the 763 at the time, and later it became a 762. When LGW and later LHR started at RDU, that was the end of ORY.


That is such a great story. Thanks for sharing it!
 
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DLHAM
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:49 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
This is awesome. Thank you for sharing. JFK-LYS, as I recall was very short lived (less than a year) and I remember an F/A friend telling my family (I was only 16 then so I don't remember all the details) saying it almost never went out full. There is a long history of US-France (non Paris) service that quickly ended. Other than NCE, the market can't seem to support anything beyond Paris, then and now. DL tried to revive JFK-LYS in the late 2000s with a 757 and it was quickly dropped. AF tried flights on A310's from Boardeaux, Strasbourg, and one other French city that I now do not recall, and they were quickly axed.

I think in 1989 AA started RDU-ORY as well. It lasted into the early 1990s and flown with the 762.


I think that Lyons could be a destination more than worth a try for United from Newark with the A321XLR. NYC-LYS had a (pre-corona) PDEW of 78 in 2019. Thats not all too bad. I mean HAM had a PDEW of 88 to NYC back in 2004 before CO started EWR-HAM and they made it work with the way more thirsty 757. Only issue could be the vicinity to Geneva.

NYCAAer wrote:
LYS was the first transatlantic IFS (International Flagship Service) trip I worked as a new hire F/A. The highest load I ever saw on the flight was about 90 passengers total on the 762. It was an awesome trip to work, very friendly passengers, Satolas was a cute little airport, and the people in the city itself were very sweet. It had that small town feel to it. The food was incredible, naturally, and I remember one trip I flew that some senior flight attendants made reservations to go to Paul Bocuse. Those were the days! We got to know some people who worked in restaurants where we were regulars, and I remember when we told them that AA was pulling out of LYS, some of them even cried. We were crushed to be leaving, I remember my last trip in February or March of 1990.


Thats a really nice story! Have you flown to HAM as well? This flight operated in the same timeframe as well. Do you remember the loads between BRU and HAM? Do you know if AA could sell tickets between BRU and HAM?
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NYCAAer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:08 pm

DLHAM wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
This is awesome. Thank you for sharing. JFK-LYS, as I recall was very short lived (less than a year) and I remember an F/A friend telling my family (I was only 16 then so I don't remember all the details) saying it almost never went out full. There is a long history of US-France (non Paris) service that quickly ended. Other than NCE, the market can't seem to support anything beyond Paris, then and now. DL tried to revive JFK-LYS in the late 2000s with a 757 and it was quickly dropped. AF tried flights on A310's from Boardeaux, Strasbourg, and one other French city that I now do not recall, and they were quickly axed.

I think in 1989 AA started RDU-ORY as well. It lasted into the early 1990s and flown with the 762.


I think that Lyons could be a destination more than worth a try for United from Newark with the A321XLR. NYC-LYS had a (pre-corona) PDEW of 78 in 2019. Thats not all too bad. I mean HAM had a PDEW of 88 to NYC back in 2004 before CO started EWR-HAM and they made it work with the way more thirsty 757. Only issue could be the vicinity to Geneva.

NYCAAer wrote:
LYS was the first transatlantic IFS (International Flagship Service) trip I worked as a new hire F/A. The highest load I ever saw on the flight was about 90 passengers total on the 762. It was an awesome trip to work, very friendly passengers, Satolas was a cute little airport, and the people in the city itself were very sweet. It had that small town feel to it. The food was incredible, naturally, and I remember one trip I flew that some senior flight attendants made reservations to go to Paul Bocuse. Those were the days! We got to know some people who worked in restaurants where we were regulars, and I remember when we told them that AA was pulling out of LYS, some of them even cried. We were crushed to be leaving, I remember my last trip in February or March of 1990.


Thats a really nice story! Have you flown to HAM as well? This flight operated in the same timeframe as well. Do you remember the loads between BRU and HAM? Do you know if AA could sell tickets between BRU and HAM?


JFK-BRU-HAM was my second International trip, I flew internationally straight out of initial training, because I speak French and Spanish. Up until 2014, we were either international or domestic, and you either had to have the linguistic skills or the seniority to fly those routes. We didn’t have Dutch speakers yet, so we staffed BRU-HAM with French and German speaking crew. Announcements were made in English, French and German, in that order.

It was a tiring trip to work, 2 legs across 6 time zones. We would land early in the morning in Brussels, and sit on the ground for a little over an hour. We had passengers onboard while cleaners came onboard and they cleaned the cabin around us and the passengers. The flight from ORD arrived a little after us, and when the cleaners were done, if any passengers on the ORD flight were continuing to HAM, they would board. Same thing with our passengers, if we had any JFK-originating passengers who were going to DUS, they would go to the ORD plane. BRU was a little “scissor hub.” We weren’t allowed to carry any local traffic on the flight.

The loads between BRU and HAM weren’t completely full, because some passengers were bound for BRU. But we still did a Champagne brunch in all cabins on the short flight, it was like an hour and 10 minutes, as I recall. By the time you got to HAM, you were exhausted. I was in HAM in the winter months, on my first trip, some senior crew took me under their wing, and we had dinner in a restaurant that I want to say was in the basement of city hall. That was the first time I ever had gluwein! Not sure if I’m spelling it correctly.

I’m glad I got to experience what flying was like in the good old days, so different from the Greyhound bus experience of today.
 
N649DL
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:26 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Are we sure Pan Am operated DTW-LHR alongside United’s former PA ops at LHR? Am pretty sure Pan Am left LHR the day before United arrived, only two US airlines could fly to LHR under Bermuda 2.


Yes, but just for a few days at most before DTW-LHR moved to DTW-LGW on Pan Am. Something very similar happened with AA and TWA. The final TWA operation at LHR (departure of TWA 701 from LHR to JFK) coincided with the first day's arrival of AA equipment into LHR from JFK (July 1991). DTW-LHR was not a route included in the sale to UA by PA and PA had no station at LGW prior. It took a few days to get everything up and running. The sale of LHR slots to UA occurred before the sale of the rest of the TATL portfolio (PA) to DL. Delta bought Pan Am's remaining European network in August 1991 (by then UA was already operating to LHR).


I wonder then, how did both AA and UA get to fly LHR-EWR as part of the sale when Pan Am didn't fly the route? AA actually dropped London to EWR and brought it back in the late 1990s through the early 2000s.
 
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IrishAyes
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:36 pm

AA also flew DFW-BRU in the early 1990's, which didn't last too long. Sabena came back in the late 1990's to resume the route when there was a codeshare agreement between them, SR, and AA. That was canned after 9/11 and SN's grounding in 2001/2002.

DL operated DFWFRA for many years after acquiring a FRA hub from Pan Am. This was actually an alternative 1-stop option to get to Delhi, which my dad took in 1995 (DFW-FRA-DEL) and return. I have his old boarding passes in my apt. The a/c was a 767-200 or -300 on both routes. It was canned in the mid-90's because DL's FRA hub was a money-loser and eventually was shut down, and all the route authorities sold.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:49 pm

IrishAyes wrote:
AA also flew DFW-BRU in the early 1990's, which didn't last too long. Sabena came back in the late 1990's to resume the route when there was a codeshare agreement between them, SR, and AA. That was canned after 9/11 and SN's grounding in 2001/2002.


Sure? The late 90s had Delta, SR, SN (and, for a while) Austrian in a codeshare relationship. A Sabena 747 on BRU-CVG.... talk about relying on connections.
 
a320flyer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:08 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
AA also flew DFW-BRU in the early 1990's, which didn't last too long. Sabena came back in the late 1990's to resume the route when there was a codeshare agreement between them, SR, and AA. That was canned after 9/11 and SN's grounding in 2001/2002.


Sure? The late 90s had Delta, SR, SN (and, for a while) Austrian in a codeshare relationship. A Sabena 747 on BRU-CVG.... talk about relying on connections.

P&G’s European headquarters was in BRU during the time that the flight operated and was quite popular (hence the 747). Once the codeshare ended and the flight was cut they were chartering planes between the two cities, there was quite a bit of O&D between the cities at the time.
 
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deltacto
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:17 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
DELTA
-I seem to recall Delta had service from DFW as well, to LGW and from ATL to LGW and FRA as far back as the early 1980s, but the order of service starts, I do not know.!


MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
DL flew DFW-FRA from the early 80's until 1997 but not DFW-LGW IIRC


From Delta's June 1, 1984 timetable DFW-FRA was scheduled to start in June 15, 1984
FRA was DL's only transatlantic destination from DFW
Correct that the flight never continued on to LGW

klm617 wrote:
DL flew FRA to DFW, ATL, CVG and MCO.
DL also flew CLE-DTW-LGW, DTW-LGW-FRA and I believe MCO-DTW-LGW and MIA-DTW-LGW


Cointrin330 wrote:
Much later, in the mid-1990s and at the height of Delta's FRA hub (inherited from the Pan Am acquisition) it briefly flew SFO-FRA on an L1011 (think it was 1995).


In 1992-1993 DL flew from FRA to 10 US destiations: ATL, CVG, DFW, LAX, JFK, EWR, MIA, MCO, SFO and IAD .. JFK and ATL were twice a day

http://www.departedflights.com/DLFRAhub.html
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:30 pm

N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Are we sure Pan Am operated DTW-LHR alongside United’s former PA ops at LHR? Am pretty sure Pan Am left LHR the day before United arrived, only two US airlines could fly to LHR under Bermuda 2.


Yes, but just for a few days at most before DTW-LHR moved to DTW-LGW on Pan Am. Something very similar happened with AA and TWA. The final TWA operation at LHR (departure of TWA 701 from LHR to JFK) coincided with the first day's arrival of AA equipment into LHR from JFK (July 1991). DTW-LHR was not a route included in the sale to UA by PA and PA had no station at LGW prior. It took a few days to get everything up and running. The sale of LHR slots to UA occurred before the sale of the rest of the TATL portfolio (PA) to DL. Delta bought Pan Am's remaining European network in August 1991 (by then UA was already operating to LHR).


I wonder then, how did both AA and UA get to fly LHR-EWR as part of the sale when Pan Am didn't fly the route? AA actually dropped London to EWR and brought it back in the late 1990s through the early 2000s.


Either the NY Area airports end were seen as a co-terminal and not consequential in the slot allocation part of the transfer (LHR yes, the NY end, no). Also, UA had a sizable operation at EWR in the 1980s and 1990s including nonstop service to NRT for a time. Slots at JFK were likely less of an issue (if one at all) and AA was, at the time, much more focused on NY overall and felt the need to offer an EWR to LHR service as well to compete with UA. I'm not sure if AA dropped and then resumed EWR to LHR. That I don't recall. It operated with the 767-300ER and for a time, in the late 1990s, the AB6. UA's sole EWR-LHR route was operated with a 772 (initially, it was flown with a 747SP) and then became the first NY area service to see the 772 by 1995 or 1996 after the type was introduced. Over at JFK, the then 3 daily LHR flights UA operated were all flown with a mix of 762 and 747 at the start but by 1995/6, were on the 767-300ER exclusively, with a daylight departure and two evening flights, very closely mirroring the Pan Am JFK to LHR schedule. By 2006, UA was down to 1 single NYC to LHR flight, from JFK exclusively, and flew it with a 772.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:33 pm

deltacto wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
DELTA
-I seem to recall Delta had service from DFW as well, to LGW and from ATL to LGW and FRA as far back as the early 1980s, but the order of service starts, I do not know.!


MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
DL flew DFW-FRA from the early 80's until 1997 but not DFW-LGW IIRC


From Delta's June 1, 1984 timetable DFW-FRA was scheduled to start in June 15, 1984
FRA was DL's only transatlantic destination from DFW
Correct that the flight never continued on to LGW

klm617 wrote:
DL flew FRA to DFW, ATL, CVG and MCO.
DL also flew CLE-DTW-LGW, DTW-LGW-FRA and I believe MCO-DTW-LGW and MIA-DTW-LGW


Cointrin330 wrote:
Much later, in the mid-1990s and at the height of Delta's FRA hub (inherited from the Pan Am acquisition) it briefly flew SFO-FRA on an L1011 (think it was 1995).


In 1992-1993 DL flew from FRA to 10 US destiations: ATL, CVG, DFW, LAX, JFK, EWR, MIA, MCO, SFO and IAD .. JFK and ATL were twice a day

http://www.departedflights.com/DLFRAhub.html


Around that time and into the mid-1990s DL also operated from FRA to several East European capitals, part of the old PA network at FRA, along with IST. Toward the end of the FRA hub days for DL, there was also service to India, I think.
 
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deltacto
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:54 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Around that time and into the mid-1990s DL also operated from FRA to several East European capitals, part of the old PA network at FRA, along with IST. Toward the end of the FRA hub days for DL, there was also service to India, I think.


yes: ATH, OTP, BUD, IST, SVO, PRG, LED, VIE, and WAW all with 727-200's acquired after Eastern shot down
FRA-SVO operated with 767-200's for a while too
Some of these were 1-stops like FRA-VIE-OTP


Initially DL flew to both Mumbai and Delhi ... later consolidated just to Mumbai. Even after DL pulled down the FRA hub, they still flew to FRA-BOM for a while before moving the flight to Paris.

Departed Flights has an awesome page for DL's FRA hub

http://www.departedflights.com/DLFRAhub.html
Last edited by deltacto on Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
N649DL
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:55 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Yes, but just for a few days at most before DTW-LHR moved to DTW-LGW on Pan Am. Something very similar happened with AA and TWA. The final TWA operation at LHR (departure of TWA 701 from LHR to JFK) coincided with the first day's arrival of AA equipment into LHR from JFK (July 1991). DTW-LHR was not a route included in the sale to UA by PA and PA had no station at LGW prior. It took a few days to get everything up and running. The sale of LHR slots to UA occurred before the sale of the rest of the TATL portfolio (PA) to DL. Delta bought Pan Am's remaining European network in August 1991 (by then UA was already operating to LHR).


I wonder then, how did both AA and UA get to fly LHR-EWR as part of the sale when Pan Am didn't fly the route? AA actually dropped London to EWR and brought it back in the late 1990s through the early 2000s.


Either the NY Area airports end were seen as a co-terminal and not consequential in the slot allocation part of the transfer (LHR yes, the NY end, no). Also, UA had a sizable operation at EWR in the 1980s and 1990s including nonstop service to NRT for a time. Slots at JFK were likely less of an issue (if one at all) and AA was, at the time, much more focused on NY overall and felt the need to offer an EWR to LHR service as well to compete with UA. I'm not sure if AA dropped and then resumed EWR to LHR. That I don't recall. It operated with the 767-300ER and for a time, in the late 1990s, the AB6. UA's sole EWR-LHR route was operated with a 772 (initially, it was flown with a 747SP) and then became the first NY area service to see the 772 by 1995 or 1996 after the type was introduced. Over at JFK, the then 3 daily LHR flights UA operated were all flown with a mix of 762 and 747 at the start but by 1995/6, were on the 767-300ER exclusively, with a daylight departure and two evening flights, very closely mirroring the Pan Am JFK to LHR schedule. By 2006, UA was down to 1 single NYC to LHR flight, from JFK exclusively, and flew it with a 772.


AA definitely dropped LHR-EWR by 1996: http://www.departedflights.com/LHR96intro.html

I recall flying to Aruba on AA in February 1999 and at EWR they had a banner promoting the new LHR service. So they restarted EWR-LHR in late 1998 or early 1999, IIRC.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:36 pm

That’s correct, AA discontinued EWR-LHR and brought it back. I was sitting standby on reserve in June 1991 in operations at EWR, and a flight attendant on special assignment asked me if I’d like to volunteer to help welcome the LHR passengers at EWR on July 1st, for the inaugural. Being young, naive and enthusiastic, I said yes. I lived in Manhattan and preferred to fly out of JFK, but the acquisition of the LHR routes was a really big deal.

July 1st, I showed up and asked what they’d like me to do, I was in my regulation uniform, shirt starched, shoes polished. Then someone said to me, “Would you like to be a Queen’s Guard or a Beefeater?” I was dumbfounded. “Uh, what do you mean? I was told to show up in uniform.” And the woman said, “Oh no, honey. We rented costumes for you to wear. The Queen’s Guards will be in the Admirals Club and the Beefeaters are going to be at the departure gate.” So I figured it would be more interesting to be at the gate. I basically stood around the gate and had my picture taken with passengers on the inaugural. I was probably the youngest Beefeater I’ve ever seen!
 
Floridian
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:33 pm

I recall the DL/PA interchange MSY-ATL-IAD to Europe actually started earlier at some period pre-747 operated with Pan Am DC-8-33s.

Pan American started phasing out the DC-8s as the PA 747s (launch customer) were arriving. Delta was waiting for their 747s to be delivered later and decided to buy seven PA DC-8s to continue the interchange until their 747s arrived and the daily rotations of mixed 747 equipment began.

Delta's DC-8-51 fleet did not have trans-Atlantic range. The PA DC-8s were repainted DL. There may have been a short time when the interchange had DL DC-8 painted equipment as a result seen in Europe.
 
Tokushima
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:44 pm

I've always thought that NW's service to BGO (Bergen, Norway), SVG (Stavanger, Norway) and GOT (Göteborg or Gothernburg, Sweden) were head scratchers. Those cities were listed on their route maps from the late 70s & early 80s, but I couldn't find any actual scheduled service. I did try to find the answer both in this thread and on multiple websites, but to no avail. The maps show service between BGO-SVG, BGO-FBU (Oslo/Fornebu, Norway), BGO-PIK (listed as Glasgow, Scotland), SVG-FBU, SVG-PIK, SVG-GOT, GOT-ARN, GOT-FBU & GOT-CPH. But again, I couldn't find any schedule service between any of those city pairs. Were these a situation of an airline simply wanting to establish service but unable to get the authority to do so? I know there are a few examples of such things on other airlines (National Airlines' route maps showing service between MSY and AMS/FRA/ORY being a well-known example). Does anyone here know if BGO/SVG/GOT ever actually had service on NW?

Thanks in advance!
Last edited by Tokushima on Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:53 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
IrishAyes wrote:
AA also flew DFW-BRU in the early 1990's, which didn't last too long. Sabena came back in the late 1990's to resume the route when there was a codeshare agreement between them, SR, and AA. That was canned after 9/11 and SN's grounding in 2001/2002.


Sure? The late 90s had Delta, SR, SN (and, for a while) Austrian in a codeshare relationship. A Sabena 747 on BRU-CVG.... talk about relying on connections.


It looks like the Atlantic Excellence alliance ended on August 5, 2000. About one year of codesharing with AA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Excellence
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
United1
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:35 am

Tokushima wrote:
I've always thought that NW's service to BGO (Bergen, Norway), SVG (Stavanger, Norway) and GOT (Göteborg or Gothernburg, Sweden) were head scratchers. Those cities were listed on their route maps from the late 70s & early 80s, but I couldn't find any actual scheduled service. I did try to find the answer both in this thread and on multiple websites, but to no avail. The maps show service between BGO-SVG, BGO-FBU (Oslo/Fornebu, Norway), BGO-PIK (listed as Glasgow, Scotland), SVG-FBU, SVG-PIK, SVG-GOT, GOT-ARN, GOT-FBU & GOT-CPH. But again, I couldn't find any schedule service between any of those city pairs. Were these a situation of an airline simply wanting to establish service but unable to get the authority to do so? I know there are a few examples of such things on other airlines (National Airlines' route maps showing service between MSY and AMS/FRA/ORY being a well-known example). Does anyone here know if BGO/SVG/GOT ever actually had service on NW?

Thanks in advance!


All of those cities were served via AMS and on KLM metal....NW and KLM had an extensive codeshare network. NW did serve Glasgow via BOS but I thought it was GLA vs PIK.
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:38 am

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Not sure if it's been mentioned in the thread, but AA also had a brief cup of coffee on BNA-LGW from summer 1994 through summer 1995 with a DC-10.


762 and MD-11s would sometimes operate the route.
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superjeff
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:43 am

findingnema wrote:
Regarding the crew bases that were in London, did the Pan Am London base crew get transferred over to United with the new route authorities or did everyone lose their job and have to reapply? I know that there are some ex Pan Am people at the United station here in London but not sure of their story.

Also, I remember until 9/11 that Northwest had an inflight language ambassador role at Gatwick. Does anyone remember this and what the deal was?
I fl

If I remember correctly, United took some, but not all, of the Pan Am London based crew. I flew ORD-LHR-ORD in October, 2011 (after 9-11 there were some really good airfares), and the crew on the flight back was all London based and pretty senior at that.
 
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:06 am

Tokushima wrote:
I've always thought that NW's service to BGO (Bergen, Norway), SVG (Stavanger, Norway) and GOT (Göteborg or Gothernburg, Sweden) were head scratchers. Those cities were listed on their route maps from the late 70s & early 80s, but I couldn't find any actual scheduled service. I did try to find the answer both in this thread and on multiple websites, but to no avail. The maps show service between BGO-SVG, BGO-FBU (Oslo/Fornebu, Norway), BGO-PIK (listed as Glasgow, Scotland), SVG-FBU, SVG-PIK, SVG-GOT, GOT-ARN, GOT-FBU & GOT-CPH. But again, I couldn't find any schedule service between any of those city pairs. Were these a situation of an airline simply wanting to establish service but unable to get the authority to do so? I know there are a few examples of such things on other airlines (National Airlines' route maps showing service between MSY and AMS/FRA/ORY being a well-known example). Does anyone here know if BGO/SVG/GOT ever actually had service on NW?

Thanks in advance!


NW route maps then showed AUTHORIZED routes so those destinations never actually got NW service.

The NA route maps in 1978 and 1979 with all the Europe service from MSY is confusing - I believe they all either stopped in TPA or MIA.
 
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:21 pm

superjeff wrote:
findingnema wrote:
Regarding the crew bases that were in London, did the Pan Am London base crew get transferred over to United with the new route authorities or did everyone lose their job and have to reapply? I know that there are some ex Pan Am people at the United station here in London but not sure of their story.

Also, I remember until 9/11 that Northwest had an inflight language ambassador role at Gatwick. Does anyone remember this and what the deal was?
I fl

If I remember correctly, United took some, but not all, of the Pan Am London based crew. I flew ORD-LHR-ORD in October, 2011 (after 9-11 there were some really good airfares), and the crew on the flight back was all London based and pretty senior at that.


Yes, and the LHR crew base UA has today has indeed its origins in the Pan Am operation that it purchased.
 
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:23 pm

southwest1675 wrote:
AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Not sure if it's been mentioned in the thread, but AA also had a brief cup of coffee on BNA-LGW from summer 1994 through summer 1995 with a DC-10.


762 and MD-11s would sometimes operate the route.


I thought AA operated BNA-LGW a little later in the 1990s, like 1996, 7, or even 8?
 
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:38 pm

@United1
"All of those cities were served via AMS and on KLM metal....NW and KLM had an extensive codeshare network. NW did serve Glasgow via BOS but I thought it was GLA vs PIK."

I don't believe NW and KL had an extensive codeshare network in the late 70s/early 80s.
Last edited by Tokushima on Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:42 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Tokushima wrote:
I've always thought that NW's service to BGO (Bergen, Norway), SVG (Stavanger, Norway) and GOT (Göteborg or Gothernburg, Sweden) were head scratchers. Those cities were listed on their route maps from the late 70s & early 80s, but I couldn't find any actual scheduled service. I did try to find the answer both in this thread and on multiple websites, but to no avail. The maps show service between BGO-SVG, BGO-FBU (Oslo/Fornebu, Norway), BGO-PIK (listed as Glasgow, Scotland), SVG-FBU, SVG-PIK, SVG-GOT, GOT-ARN, GOT-FBU & GOT-CPH. But again, I couldn't find any schedule service between any of those city pairs. Were these a situation of an airline simply wanting to establish service but unable to get the authority to do so? I know there are a few examples of such things on other airlines (National Airlines' route maps showing service between MSY and AMS/FRA/ORY being a well-known example). Does anyone here know if BGO/SVG/GOT ever actually had service on NW?

Thanks in advance!


@MIAFLLPBIFlyer

”NW route maps then showed AUTHORIZED routes so those destinations never actually got NW service.

The NA route maps in 1978 and 1979 with all the Europe service from MSY is confusing - I believe they all either stopped in TPA or MIA”.

Thank you for clarifying both of those issues.
 
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:52 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:
AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Not sure if it's been mentioned in the thread, but AA also had a brief cup of coffee on BNA-LGW from summer 1994 through summer 1995 with a DC-10.


762 and MD-11s would sometimes operate the route.


I thought AA operated BNA-LGW a little later in the 1990s, like 1996, 7, or even 8?


The service was flown May 1995 through September 1996. By 1996 the AA BNA hub was being dismantled.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1995/06/15 ... 803188800/
 
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:09 pm

AVLAirlineFreq wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:

762 and MD-11s would sometimes operate the route.


I thought AA operated BNA-LGW a little later in the 1990s, like 1996, 7, or even 8?


The service was flown May 1995 through September 1996. By 1996 the AA BNA hub was being dismantled.

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1995/06/15 ... 803188800/


I lived in London from late 1996 to 2000 and in the 1996-7 time frame, a number of London taxicabs were painted in AA colors and branding touting the company's leading position as the #1 US airline to the US from London (including LGW operations) which at the time saw RDU (1), DFW (2), and BNA (1) served from LGW with JFK (6) BOS (2), MIA (1) ORD (4) and LAX (1) all served from LHR. UA on the other hand was SFO (2), IAD (3), LAX (1), ORD (3), JFK (3), EWR (1), and briefly, BOS (1). UA also operated LHR-DEL as part of the UA 1/UA 2 round the world service (LAX-JFK-LHR-DEL-HKG-LAX).
 
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:48 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
AA started DFW-LGW on a 747-100 in 1982, when it took over the route authority from the demise of Braniff. The equipment changed to a DC-10-30 in 1984 when the 747 classics were traded for DC-10-30s from Pan Am, who in turn inherited them from the National merger. DFW-FRA and DFW-ORY were added in 1985, both on DC-10-30s.

The next expansion came in 1986, with ORD-ORY, ORD-FRA, ORD-MAN, ORD-DUS-MUC and ORD-ZRH-GVA added on new delivery 767-200ERs. 1987 saw JFK-ORY and JFK-FRA added on DC-10-30s, which were replaced with the 767-300 on ORY and the 767-200 on FRA the following year. 1988 saw AA add DFW-MAD.

1989 brought RDU-ORY(763), ORD-ARN(762), JFK-LYS(762), JFK-BRU-HAM (763), and ORD-BRU-DUS(763) into the network. When STR was added as a tag from JFK-ZRH, the JFK-ORY flight added a tag to GVA. The ORD-ZRH flight added a tag to MUC.

A lot of routes were cut in early 1990, because the aircraft were needed to start up the new Deep South American routes out of MIA that were purchased from Eastern. JFK lost nonstops to LYS and FRA, and the tags to GVA, HAM and STR were discontinued. ORD-DUS got back to the original tag to MUC, eventually they were operated as separate flights in the mid 90s.

Late 1990 brought ORD-LGW, and then 1991 was a big year when the LHR routes were purchased from TWA. LHR was served from JFK using a mix of 747SP, 762, 763 and DC-10-30s. MIA, LAX and EWR to LHR were flown on the 763, and BOS was initially served by domestic configured DC-10-10s until more 763s were delivered. JFK-MAN and JFK-LGW were also added on the 762. JFK-LGW didn’t last long, less than a year.

That’s about all I remember from 31 years of flying these routes. More might come to mind.


This is awesome. Thank you for sharing. JFK-LYS, as I recall was very short lived (less than a year) and I remember an F/A friend telling my family (I was only 16 then so I don't remember all the details) saying it almost never went out full. There is a long history of US-France (non Paris) service that quickly ended. Other than NCE, the market can't seem to support anything beyond Paris, then and now. DL tried to revive JFK-LYS in the late 2000s with a 757 and it was quickly dropped. AF tried flights on A310's from Boardeaux, Strasbourg, and one other French city that I now do not recall, and they were quickly axed.

I think in 1989 AA started RDU-ORY as well. It lasted into the early 1990s and flown with the 762.


LYS was the first transatlantic IFS (International Flagship Service) trip I worked as a new hire F/A. The highest load I ever saw on the flight was about 90 passengers total on the 762. It was an awesome trip to work, very friendly passengers, Satolas was a cute little airport, and the people in the city itself were very sweet. It had that small town feel to it. The food was incredible, naturally, and I remember one trip I flew that some senior flight attendants made reservations to go to Paul Bocuse. Those were the days! We got to know some people who worked in restaurants where we were regulars, and I remember when we told them that AA was pulling out of LYS, some of them even cried. We were crushed to be leaving, I remember my last trip in February or March of 1990.

RDU-ORY was originally flown on the 763, because all 4 flights into ORY were on the 763 at the time, and later it became a 762. When LGW and later LHR started at RDU, that was the end of ORY.


LYS has a special place in my heart. I spent a summer there, and it's one of my favorite cities. It's understandable that TATL hasn't done the best there as there's not a huge tourist draw, and it's now only a quick TGV train to Paris. AC though has had some recent success flying YUL-LYS for a few years now (as well as MRS, BOD, and TLS), so maybe there's some hope a US carrier will return someday. UA was supposed to start EWR-NCE this summer, but that was of course shelved.
300 319 320 321 332 333 345 346 380 717 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 772 77W 788 789 CR2 CR7 CR9 CRK Q400 E175 DC10 MD82 MD90
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Re: AA, UA, DL TATL Service History

Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:21 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
Going back to the US5, the first TATL service on US was CLT-LGW which was inherited from Piedmont. This was followed by PIT-FRA in 1990, which was closely followed by PHL-MAN/CDG in 1991, and CLT-FRA in 1992.


PHL started service initially to ORY. We were flying to ORY at AA and we all said, “Oh my God, can you imagine Allegheny made it to Paris?” as a joke. Little did we realize that we’d end up merging with them.


You forgot about BWI-LGW on US from the early 90s. Also, PHL-MAN didn't start until much later.

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