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Max Q
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Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:32 am

With their numerous fifth freedom route authorities I wondered if PAA ever flew scheduled non stop service between cities in S America and NZ or Australia, what about between S Africa and S America ?

Perhaps with the 747SP ?
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PANAMsterdam
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:45 am

Well Pan Am had their famous flights 1 and 2, the 'round the world flights. And as far as I know people could also buy segments on that flight. But those flights weren't going to/from NZ/Australia
Every country has an airline. The world has Pan Am.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:44 am

Some interesting insights here from 1977. (The height of Pan Am?)

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/261647/197778-panam-routes/

Looks like all Australia services were via Fiji/Hawaii/New Zealand. I do remember my grandmother, in the mid 1970s, flying PA MEL to NAN vv, so they must have had rights.

What I do find interesting is PA flying 727s from LHR to OSL/CPH/ARN. How did that come about? BA and SK must have been furious!

Oh and the 747 LHR to BRU. Imagine being in First Class on that route. Could they have served the chateaubriand and claret, and lit your obligatory cigarette, in that short flight time?
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panamair
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:03 am

Max Q wrote:
With their numerous fifth freedom route authorities I wondered if PAA ever flew scheduled non stop service between cities in S America and NZ or Australia, what about between S Africa and S America ?

Perhaps with the 747SP ?


Yes, they had JNB-GIG mostly with the 707.

Other out of the ordinary routes especially in the 70s included things like SYD-DPS-HKG and SYD-JKT-HKG with the 707s though I am not sure of the traffic rights on those segments.

And of course the oft-mentioned ones in Asia and intra-Europe as well as some of the stops on the PA001/002 RTW routing.
 
iRISH251
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:19 am

vhtje wrote:
Some interesting insights here from 1977. (The height of Pan Am?)

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/261647/197778-panam-routes/

Looks like all Australia services were via Fiji/Hawaii/New Zealand. I do remember my grandmother, in the mid 1970s, flying PA MEL to NAN vv, so they must have had rights.

What I do find interesting is PA flying 727s from LHR to OSL/CPH/ARN. How did that come about? BA and SK must have been furious!

Oh and the 747 LHR to BRU. Imagine being in First Class on that route. Could they have served the chateaubriand and claret, and lit your obligatory cigarette, in that short flight time?


On the European routes I think those were "tag-ons" to and from the LHR and FRA hubs, without point-to-point rights as such. United, Delta and TWA had some similar arrangements over the years too, with short/medium-haul aircraft based in Europe to service their hubs.
 
panamair
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:23 am

iRISH251 wrote:
vhtje wrote:
Some interesting insights here from 1977. (The height of Pan Am?)

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/261647/197778-panam-routes/

Looks like all Australia services were via Fiji/Hawaii/New Zealand. I do remember my grandmother, in the mid 1970s, flying PA MEL to NAN vv, so they must have had rights.

What I do find interesting is PA flying 727s from LHR to OSL/CPH/ARN. How did that come about? BA and SK must have been furious!

Oh and the 747 LHR to BRU. Imagine being in First Class on that route. Could they have served the chateaubriand and claret, and lit your obligatory cigarette, in that short flight time?


On the European routes I think those were "tag-ons" to and from the LHR and FRA hubs, without point-to-point rights as such. United, Delta and TWA had some similar arrangements over the years too, with short/medium-haul aircraft based in Europe to service their hubs.


They had some local rights but not others. For example they could carry local pax on most of the LHR-Germany flights (FRA,MUC,HAM) but not on LHR-BRU/AMS.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:47 am

Carriers did weird things before ULH range was readily obtained with 747-400s. Pan Am AKL-PPG-HNL-LAX on a 707, anyone?
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:02 am

Actually,we opted for LAX-HNL-NAN-SYD (747) and SFO-AKL-SYD (SP). However, CO later operated a bunch of interesting routes in the South Pacific- all of which were almost immediately trashed once their yield management system was installed and they saw how many LON pax they were carrying with an Australian dollar that traded around 55 cents at one point. The pullout was incredibly fast.
 
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:11 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Carriers did weird things before ULH range was readily obtained with 747-400s. Pan Am AKL-PPG-HNL-LAX on a 707, anyone?


Well if a 707 didn’t have the range to fly AKL-HNL then it makes sense, NAN/PPT were used by different airlines to, I see PA did NAN-SYD. So many variations to routes.
 
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cv990Coronado
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:25 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Carriers did weird things before ULH range was readily obtained with 747-400s. Pan Am AKL-PPG-HNL-LAX on a 707, anyone?


Well if a 707 didn’t have the range to fly AKL-HNL then it makes sense, NAN/PPT were used by different airlines to, I see PA did NAN-SYD. So many variations to routes.


I flew AKLHNL on Air NewZealand on a DC-8-50 in 1971 so Pan Am's 707-321B 's would certainly have had the range. I would guess there was enough business to stop in NAN and PPT at times.
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TMccrury
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:48 am

We flew the LAX-HNL-PPG-PPT route in 1977. We got off in PPG and flew on to Tonga. It was interesting arriving in PPG, the middle of the night on a 747. At that time, the airport was basically an out building sized place and we were about the only ones to get off of the plane. We spent the night there before continuing on to Tonga. We were greeted by the locals and they put Lei's around our necks. Not sure why. I was just a kid and happy to be traveling and seeing the world. From there we continued on to New Zealand. I believe that was on Air New Zealand and then on to Jakarta. I don't remember all of the routing on that segment.
 
iRISH251
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:56 am

panamair wrote:
They had some local rights but not others. For example they could carry local pax on most of the LHR-Germany flights (FRA,MUC,HAM) but not on LHR-BRU/AMS.


A legacy of the Internal German Services, I assume.
 
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cougar15
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:06 am

vhtje wrote:
Some interesting insights here from 1977. (The height of Pan Am?)

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/261647/197778-panam-routes/

Looks like all Australia services were via Fiji/Hawaii/New Zealand. I do remember my grandmother, in the mid 1970s, flying PA MEL to NAN vv, so they must have had rights.

What I do find interesting is PA flying 727s from LHR to OSL/CPH/ARN. How did that come about? BA and SK must have been furious!

Oh and the 747 LHR to BRU. Imagine being in First Class on that route. Could they have served the chateaubriand and claret, and lit your obligatory cigarette, in that short flight time?


On you Gran, it might have had to do with the legs the Pratt powered SP´s had. It was a bit of a running gag that it was a one stop nonstop, dropping into another Island in the region regularly for fuel. QF later never had the issue as the Rollers were more efficient. That's how I remember it, but stand to be corrected.

On the European 727s, yes they were extensions, tag alongs. Bit like Iberia did to South America with A319s for a while.
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simairlinenet
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:32 pm

panamair wrote:
Yes, they had JNB-GIG mostly with the 707.

When was this? My research of 60s and daily 70s timetables only showed JNB via Africa. Thanks.

Composite map representing late 60s here: http://www.simairline.net/panamerican/r ... global.gif
 
tonyflyboi
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:58 pm

Do you think PanAm could ever come back ?
 
panamair
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:14 pm

simairlinenet wrote:
panamair wrote:
Yes, they had JNB-GIG mostly with the 707.

When was this? My research of 60s and daily 70s timetables only showed JNB via Africa. Thanks.

Composite map representing late 60s here: http://www.simairline.net/panamerican/r ... global.gif


Here’s an example from W77/78 (scroll quite a bit down in the list)
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... am-routes/
 
simairlinenet
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:27 pm

panamair wrote:
[Here’s an example from W77/78 (scroll quite a bit down in the list)
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... am-routes/

Thank you! I hadn't delved into late 70s, only early 70s (not daily).
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:35 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
Well Pan Am had their famous flights 1 and 2, the 'round the world flights. And as far as I know people could also buy segments on that flight. But those flights weren't going to/from NZ/Australia


United Airlines revived the Flights 1 and 2 route in the 1990s, operating LAX-JFK-LHR-DEL-HKG-LAX. The LAX-JFK flight was a 767-200ER, JFK-LHR segment was flown with a 767-300ER, LHR-DEL was also a 767-300ER, and I think DEL-HKG was a 767-300ER as well. HKG-LAX was a 747-400.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:13 pm

Pan Am did indeed have quite a few routes that, for an American returning home, would be WAY out of the way, indicating that many routes they flew and had authority for weren't targeted at their "home market". For example, in the mid-1970's, Pan Am had a flight from Hong Kong to Sydney, either non-stop or via Djakarta or Bali. Then the flight continued on to the U.S.

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042973intro.html

This timetable includes not only the route map but the flight itineraries as well.

As I have read, TWA and Pan Am, the two major American international carriers to Europe for many years, agreed to semi-split Europe between them, with TWA taking Paris as their main European base, and Pan Am taking Germany. Since Pan Am was the only authorized American carrier into West Berlin, this made sense for the arrangement. And, in the days before code-shares and alliances, Pan Am and TWA covered a lot cities via "tag-ons", such as the infamous TWA flight 847, which was routed Cairo-Athens-Rome-sometimes Paris on a 727, switching to a 747 for the trans-Atlantic portion.

In any case, I HIGHLY recommend the website of Departed Flights, as much of the history of aviation is contained in those timetables. Pretty cool stuff!!
 
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vhtje
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Re: Pan Am questions

Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:16 pm

iRISH251 wrote:
vhtje wrote:
What I do find interesting is PA flying 727s from LHR to OSL/CPH/ARN. How did that come about? BA and SK must have been furious!

Oh and the 747 LHR to BRU.


On the European routes I think those were "tag-ons" to and from the LHR and FRA hubs, without point-to-point rights as such. United, Delta and TWA had some similar arrangements over the years too, with short/medium-haul aircraft based in Europe to service their hubs.


It appears you're correct. According to this thread, PA flew to FBU (predecessor airport to OSL) and HEL from MIA via LHR, with an aircraft type change in LHR, with no local traffic rights from LHR:

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1388333

panamair wrote:
For most of the 80s, PA flew the 727 LHR-FBU. In the late 80s, it was PA98 MIA-LHR-FBU-HEL where the first leg was a 747, and then switched to a 727 for LHR-FBU-HEL; they had no local traffic rights between LHR and FBU.

In 1990, they (re)-started nonstop JFK-FBU flights with the A310 a few times a week
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:06 am

Legacy route authorities will have been part of this. Whilst these days we are increasingly used to Open Skies agreements or quite generous bilateral agreements in many markets, it was quite often the case that for various historic reasons there might be some odd fifth freedom rights that existed and suited being used. In its heyday PA was in a class of its own, with considerable clout, so persuading governments in Brazil and South Africa to grant traffic rights across the South Atlantic was the sort of thing it could do.

A non-PA oddity from 1985 was British Airways, who operated a weekly flight (BA25/BA26) Hong Kong - Colombo - Seychelles - Johannesburg, and with a 747 to boot! That very much feels like a route using some very old BOAC route authorities.
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Phosphorus
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:37 am

tonyflyboi wrote:
Do you think PanAm could ever come back ?

It did, a few times:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Ameri ... %80%931998)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Ameri ... (1998-2004)
as Pan Am Clipper Connection:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston-Maine_Airways

And in way, the last version is still around, just not in air transport:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Railways

Consensus among historians is that none of these attempts was worth the while, and it might have been better, if the Pan Am name was allowed to rest in peace.
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reltney
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:02 pm

cv990Coronado wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Carriers did weird things before ULH range was readily obtained with 747-400s. Pan Am AKL-PPG-HNL-LAX on a 707, anyone?


Well if a 707 didn’t have the range to fly AKL-HNL then it makes sense, NAN/PPT were used by different airlines to, I see PA did NAN-SYD. So many variations to routes.


I flew AKLHNL on Air NewZealand on a DC-8-50 in 1971 so Pan Am's 707-321B 's would certainly have had the range. I would guess there was enough business to stop in NAN and PPT at times.



DC-8s were much longer distance fliers than the 707. The -62 broke many records for airliners in its category. .
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AwysBSB
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:34 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
tonyflyboi wrote:
Do you think PanAm could ever come back ?

Consensus among historians is that none of these attempts was worth the while, and it might have been better, if the Pan Am name was allowed to rest in peace.

I`m not a historian, but I cannot agree with them.
Given that, in the first decade of this century, major mergers would have to occour anyway, I believe that the Northwest-US Airways arrangement (perhaps in 2008) would be conducive to a name change to Pan Am, if US Airways had not merged with America West Airlines, but had merged with Northwest before Delta.
Thus today there would exist four long-haul US carriers, being one of them the emblematic Pan Am (coexisting in Sky Team with Delta), with a market share of around 12%, headquartered in Virginia, and operating TPAC and TATL with A350, A330 and B757 not from JFK, SFO, IAH or MIA, but from MSP, DTW, MEM, CLT, PHL and BOS.
That Pan Am would be much more successful than the previous ones and break historians' paradigms.
 
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:13 pm

AwysBSB wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
tonyflyboi wrote:
Do you think PanAm could ever come back ?

Consensus among historians is that none of these attempts was worth the while, and it might have been better, if the Pan Am name was allowed to rest in peace.

I`m not a historian, but I cannot agree with them.
Given that, in the first decade of this century, major mergers would have to occour anyway, I believe that the Northwest-US Airways arrangement (perhaps in 2008) would be conducive to a name change to Pan Am, if US Airways had not merged with America West Airlines, but had merged with Northwest before Delta.
Thus today there would exist four long-haul US carriers, being one of them the emblematic Pan Am (coexisting in Sky Team with Delta), with a market share of around 12%, headquartered in Virginia, and operating TPAC and TATL with A350, A330 and B757 not from JFK, SFO, IAH or MIA, but from MSP, DTW, MEM, CLT, PHL and BOS.
That Pan Am would be much more successful than the previous ones and break historians' paradigms.


Don't forget the abortive Pam Am-Northwest merger attempt in early 1989. If not for Marvin Davis, Al Checci and Fred Malek's deeper pockets, it might've happened.
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Tango-Bravo
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:45 am

reltney wrote:
cv990Coronado wrote:
I flew AKLHNL on Air NewZealand on a DC-8-50 in 1971 so Pan Am's 707-321B 's would certainly have had the range. I would guess there was enough business to stop in NAN and PPT at times.


DC-8s were much longer distance fliers than the 707. The -62 broke many records for airliners in its category. .


Indeed the DC-8-62 had significantly greater range than the long range 707 (series -320B/C). The DC-8-50, of which cv990' speaks, was roughly comparable in range to the 707-320B/C. And Pan Am, our subject airline, only ever operated one DC-8-62 (N1803, leased from Braniff), in an interchange arrangement with Braniff between the U.S. and South America.
 
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:43 am

Phosphorus wrote:
tonyflyboi wrote:
Do you think PanAm could ever come back ?

It did, a few times:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Ameri ... %80%931998)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Ameri ... (1998-2004)
as Pan Am Clipper Connection:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston-Maine_Airways

And in way, the last version is still around, just not in air transport:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Railways

Consensus among historians is that none of these attempts was worth the while, and it might have been better, if the Pan Am name was allowed to rest in peace.


And the railway company is now for sale, so if someone wants to restart the airline you have a chance to acquire the brand: https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/ ... 64.article
 
SELMER40
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:11 pm

USPIT10L wrote:
AwysBSB wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Consensus among historians is that none of these attempts was worth the while, and it might have been better, if the Pan Am name was allowed to rest in peace.



Don't forget the abortive Pam Am-Northwest merger attempt in early 1989. If not for Marvin Davis, Al Checci and Fred Malek's deeper pockets, it might've happened.

I really wanted that one to happen
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Tango-Bravo
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:24 pm

tonyflyboi wrote:
Do you think PanAm could ever come back ?


Not in anything even close to the form we associate with Pan Am's pre-1986 network (before the sale of their entire Pacific network, followed by much of Europe). It would take billion$ just to start up in a viable form and, even then, there would be no certainty -- or even likelihood -- of survival. Beside that risk, it seems the name Pan Am has long since lost its mystique except as a memory of the golden age of air travel. So why would investors risk the vast amount of money it would take to start an airline even resembling pre-1986 Pan Am? Anything less would not be worthy of the Pan Am name (IMHO)
 
incitatus
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Re: Pan Am questions

Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:34 pm

tonyflyboi wrote:
Do you think PanAm could ever come back ?


Not quite sure the meaning of that question. It would be a 100% completely different company that just happens to sport the same name. The US-based supply for foreign travel seems to be nicely divided to three large chunks, with JetBlue possibly entering the fray in the near term.
A new PanAm from scratch will take maybe 25 lucky years to acquire scale.
A renamed airline as PanAm will continue to face formidable competition from the other ones and a different name may buy them nothing.
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MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: Pan Am questions

Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:10 pm

vhtje wrote:
Some interesting insights here from 1977. (The height of Pan Am?)

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/261647/197778-panam-routes/

Looks like all Australia services were via Fiji/Hawaii/New Zealand. I do remember my grandmother, in the mid 1970s, flying PA MEL to NAN vv, so they must have had rights.

What I do find interesting is PA flying 727s from LHR to OSL/CPH/ARN. How did that come about? BA and SK must have been furious!

Oh and the 747 LHR to BRU. Imagine being in First Class on that route. Could they have served the chateaubriand and claret, and lit your obligatory cigarette, in that short flight time?


1977 was after route swaps with TWA and American as well as the sale or transfer of Seattle-Alaska routes to Alaska. So I'd look at something pre-1975 to get a really good picture. Between 1971-1975 I'd say was Pan Am's height.
 
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Aug 02, 2020 4:04 am

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Between 1971-1975 I'd say was Pan Am's height.


It is interesting you seem to mention Pan Am’s peak was during the fuel crisis, when the world was over the barrel and at the mercy of OPEC.

I like to think of Pan Am at its peak with the merger of National. It’s just a shame PA was never able to profit immensely with this transaction.
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cityshuttle
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:01 am

FlyCaledonian wrote:
A non-PA oddity from 1985 was British Airways, who operated a weekly flight (BA25/BA26) Hong Kong - Colombo - Seychelles - Johannesburg, and with a 747 to boot! That very much feels like a route using some very old BOAC route authorities.


I guess this had to do with Hong Kong being British territory by that time, so BA was allowed these routes.
 
panamair
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:41 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Between 1971-1975 I'd say was Pan Am's height.


It is interesting you seem to mention Pan Am’s peak was during the fuel crisis, when the world was over the barrel and at the mercy of OPEC.

I like to think of Pan Am at its peak with the merger of National. It’s just a shame PA was never able to profit immensely with this transaction.


Pan Am’s peak was probably in the late 1960s..they were profitable in 1968 and became the launch customer for the 747; but they fell into a string of annual losses after that until 1977. They temporarily crept back into the black for 3 years in the late 70s (1977-79 with 1978 being the best year for all US airlines then). And then the losses started piling up again from 1980 on, with two barely profitable years during that entire decade.
 
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vhtje
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:49 am

panamair wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
Between 1971-1975 I'd say was Pan Am's height.


It is interesting you seem to mention Pan Am’s peak was during the fuel crisis, when the world was over the barrel and at the mercy of OPEC.

I like to think of Pan Am at its peak with the merger of National. It’s just a shame PA was never able to profit immensely with this transaction.


Pan Am’s peak was probably in the late 1960s..they were profitable in 1968 and became the launch customer for the 747; but they fell into a string of annual losses after that until 1977. They temporarily crept back into the black for 3 years in the late 70s (1977-79 with 1978 being the best year for all US airlines then). And then the losses started piling up again from 1980 on, with two barely profitable years during that entire decade.



We have to be careful not be revisionist when we look at the past. Everyone - including historians - are guilty of it, so please don't think I am accusing you of anything.

I can only relate my own impression of Pan Am in the 1970s and 1980s. I was born in Australia in 1968. In the early 1970s, Pan Am meant excitement, the best of the best. I can remember going to Tullamarine and being excited by seeing PA aircraft. I posted earlier about my Grandmother flying PA MEL to NAN vv. I mean, she could easily have flown Qantas or Air Pacific, but she chose to fly Pan Am. Why? She wanted the best.

By the late 1970s, after deregulation, Pan Am had stopped innovating and it was clear even to the causal observer (me) that the shine on Pan Am was slipping. For one thing, we saw fewer PA aircraft in Australia from the late 1970s. PA advertising signage disappeared from Australian city streetscapes, and adverts stopped appearing in newspapers; this sort of constant presence is what fed my excitement for the brand as a child. By the 1980s, in my eyes, the brand was decidedly tarnished, and by the late 1980s my impression was definitely that you only flew Pan Am if there was no alternative - I think PA withdrew from Australia around 1986.

So I am going to maintain my view that Peak Pan Am was around 1976-1978. Happy for you to dissuade me otherwise; I appreciate your view from your position may be completely different to mine.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:27 am

tonyflyboi wrote:
Do you think PanAm could ever come back ?

They have, twice...but I wish they could again!
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:08 pm

AntonioMartin wrote:
tonyflyboi wrote:
Do you think PanAm could ever come back ?

They have, twice...but I wish they could again!

It's best to exceed customer expectations. Kia stomps customer satisfaction surveys because they do well with managing expectations. A Kia owner does not have BMW expectations, and they are satisfied with what they got for $20k.

No airline could match the expectation set by America's metaphorical flag carrier during the height of our unrepentant imperial power.
 
iRISH251
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Re: Pan Am questions

Sun Aug 02, 2020 6:58 pm

For anyone interested in a very readable history of Pan Am, I would recommend this book. https://www.panam.org/skygods

The "Skygods" were the old-school captains who grew up in the flying-boat or piston era and transitioned onto jets, often with tragic consequences. Pan Am lost ten 707s in accidents, for a variety of reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... _incidents
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Pan Am questions

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:49 am

NameOmitted wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
tonyflyboi wrote:
Do you think PanAm could ever come back ?

They have, twice...but I wish they could again!

It's best to exceed customer expectations. Kia stomps customer satisfaction surveys because they do well with managing expectations. A Kia owner does not have BMW expectations, and they are satisfied with what they got for $20k.

No airline could match the expectation set by America's metaphorical flag carrier during the height of our unrepentant imperial power.

Very true, my friend....
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Pan Am questions

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:56 am

vhtje wrote:
panamair wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:

It is interesting you seem to mention Pan Am’s peak was during the fuel crisis, when the world was over the barrel and at the mercy of OPEC.

I like to think of Pan Am at its peak with the merger of National. It’s just a shame PA was never able to profit immensely with this transaction.


Pan Am’s peak was probably in the late 1960s..they were profitable in 1968 and became the launch customer for the 747; but they fell into a string of annual losses after that until 1977. They temporarily crept back into the black for 3 years in the late 70s (1977-79 with 1978 being the best year for all US airlines then). And then the losses started piling up again from 1980 on, with two barely profitable years during that entire decade.



We have to be careful not be revisionist when we look at the past. Everyone - including historians - are guilty of it, so please don't think I am accusing you of anything.

I can only relate my own impression of Pan Am in the 1970s and 1980s. I was born in Australia in 1968. In the early 1970s, Pan Am meant excitement, the best of the best. I can remember going to Tullamarine and being excited by seeing PA aircraft. I posted earlier about my Grandmother flying PA MEL to NAN vv. I mean, she could easily have flown Qantas or Air Pacific, but she chose to fly Pan Am. Why? She wanted the best.

By the late 1970s, after deregulation, Pan Am had stopped innovating and it was clear even to the causal observer (me) that the shine on Pan Am was slipping. For one thing, we saw fewer PA aircraft in Australia from the late 1970s. PA advertising signage disappeared from Australian city streetscapes, and adverts stopped appearing in newspapers; this sort of constant presence is what fed my excitement for the brand as a child. By the 1980s, in my eyes, the brand was decidedly tarnished, and by the late 1980s my impression was definitely that you only flew Pan Am if there was no alternative - I think PA withdrew from Australia around 1986.

So I am going to maintain my view that Peak Pan Am was around 1976-1978. Happy for you to dissuade me otherwise; I appreciate your view from your position may be completely different to mine.


Nothing revisionist in all of these above observations.

I just really liked and enjoyed the crisp, clean, billboard titles upon the fresh and pure Eurowhite livery towards Pan Am’s ending years.

Thanks for the observations.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
TheWorm123
Posts: 254
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Re: Pan Am questions

Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:38 am

iRISH251 wrote:
For anyone interested in a very readable history of Pan Am, I would recommend this book. https://www.panam.org/skygods

The "Skygods" were the old-school captains who grew up in the flying-boat or piston era and transitioned onto jets, often with tragic consequences. Pan Am lost ten 707s in accidents, for a variety of reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... _incidents

When you look at old lists of 20th century crashes one thing that strikes me is the frequency. Nowadays a single crash can end up bankrupting the airline (eg. TWA, Swissair, Helios, Adam Air, Flash Airlines etc) or even result in the entire type being grounded; yet in the 20th century crashes every few weeks or months were considered a nuisance and they’d move on like it was nothing with no economic troubles.

An example is the Constellation which had a crash every 2-3 months but it wasn’t an issue for them:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... stellation

American’s own record for crashes was pretty crap as well between 1970-2001 (including 9/11 for economic effect) they a lot of fairly frequent hull losses with fatalities yet they bounced back each time. Now they’re safer than ever with 587 being the last fatal accident. But in between were was flights 1490, 985 and 191.

Point is it’s surprising how before 2001 airlines could bounced back from repeated very fatal accidents and survive. Only recent examples are probably Malaysian and Ethiopian airlines.
B752 B753 A332 A321 B738
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Pan Am questions

Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:34 am

TheWorm123 wrote:
iRISH251 wrote:
......Nowadays a single crash can end up bankrupting the airline (eg. TWA, Swissair, Helios, Adam Air, Flash Airlines etc) or even result in the entire type being grounded.


In a few words SOCIAL MEDIA replacing news reporting, has created a new and unnecessary exaggerated kind of world havoc for aviation, in which bad things the size of ants are bumped up and escalated to grand things of dinosauric proportions without thorough investigation.

Small ego types emulating Kardashian television show draws, often want to be the first on the scene to get the most “likes,” or other types of social popular fashion reactions.

We often see this here on aNet too I might add.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
TheWorm123
Posts: 254
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:29 pm

Re: Pan Am questions

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:19 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
TheWorm123 wrote:
iRISH251 wrote:
......Nowadays a single crash can end up bankrupting the airline (eg. TWA, Swissair, Helios, Adam Air, Flash Airlines etc) or even result in the entire type being grounded.


In a few words SOCIAL MEDIA replacing news reporting, has created a new and unnecessary exaggerated kind of world havoc for aviation, in which bad things the size of ants are bumped up and escalated to grand things of dinosauric proportions without thorough investigation.

Small ego types emulating Kardashian television show draws, often want to be the first on the scene to get the most “likes,” or other types of social popular fashion reactions.

We often see this here on aNet too I might add.

I agree but some of those airlines in my list should’ve been gone before they killed someone, by which I mean Helios, Flash and Adam Air, what all 3 had in common was being all 737 fleets who refused to maintain their planes and flew death traps as a result.

I think some of it as well is that the authorities only getting involved once someone dies, but Alaska and American managed to survive that (291 and 191) in the 20th century.
B752 B753 A332 A321 B738
 
Cody
Posts: 2274
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 12:16 pm

Re: Pan Am questions

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:26 pm

In regard to that route from South America to South Africa, United inherited that authority but it had no local traffic rights.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4979
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Pan Am questions

Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:51 pm

vhtje wrote:
Some interesting insights here from 1977. (The height of Pan Am?)

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/261647/197778-panam-routes/

Looks like all Australia services were via Fiji/Hawaii/New Zealand. I do remember my grandmother, in the mid 1970s, flying PA MEL to NAN vv, so they must have had rights.

What I do find interesting is PA flying 727s from LHR to OSL/CPH/ARN. How did that come about? BA and SK must have been furious!

Oh and the 747 LHR to BRU. Imagine being in First Class on that route. Could they have served the chateaubriand and claret, and lit your obligatory cigarette, in that short flight time?

United also used those route authorities and flew 727-200's in Europe from LHR as well.
 
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sjones1975
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Re: Pan Am questions

Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:58 pm

iRISH251 wrote:

The "Skygods" were the old-school captains who grew up in the flying-boat or piston era and transitioned onto jets, often with tragic consequences. Pan Am lost ten 707s in accidents, for a variety of reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... _incidents


That list is pretty eye-opening. As you noted, crazy amount of crashes of 707s in a short period of time. However, it looks like Pan Am's airmanship drastically improved starting in the 1980s. There was 'only' one fatal accident in the 1980s that wasn't the result of terrorism. Contrast that to the sorry record of the previous decades.
my longest flight in a 757: FRU-ADA-SNN-BWI
 
apodino
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Re: Pan Am questions

Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:33 am

Question I always wondered about Pan Am. They had this massive International network, but because of the way their network was set up, it was very O and D dependent on New York and Miami and Los Angeles and had very little feed to these gateways to fill those international flights. It's obvious to me that they would have really benefitted had they had some domestic feed on the US side. Yet prior to deregulation, every attempt they made to try to get a domestic route authority from the CAB in order to help this international feed, was turned down. Why was the CAB so dead set against Pan Am getting domestic feed to help their international network, yet seemed to look the other way when airlines such as United and American expanded internationally? A related question is, it seems TWA to a lesser extent had the same fate? So why did the CAB take this position? Secondly, if the CAB had given them some of the domestic route they sought, do you believe they would still be around today? It is obvious to me that this issue killed them post deregulation, and the ill fated national airlines purchase that this forced hurt them badly, that they were in bad shape already and subsequently 103 coupled with the first gulf war finally nailed their coffin.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Pan Am questions

Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:39 am

apodino wrote:
Question I always wondered about Pan Am. They had this massive International network, but because of the way their network was set up, it was very O and D dependent on New York and Miami and Los Angeles and had very little feed to these gateways to fill those international flights. It's obvious to me that they would have really benefitted had they had some domestic feed on the US side. Yet prior to deregulation, every attempt they made to try to get a domestic route authority from the CAB in order to help this international feed, was turned down. Why was the CAB so dead set against Pan Am getting domestic feed to help their international network, yet seemed to look the other way when airlines such as United and American expanded internationally? A related question is, it seems TWA to a lesser extent had the same fate? So why did the CAB take this position? Secondly, if the CAB had given them some of the domestic route they sought, do you believe they would still be around today? It is obvious to me that this issue killed them post deregulation, and the ill fated national airlines purchase that this forced hurt them badly, that they were in bad shape already and subsequently 103 coupled with the first gulf war finally nailed their coffin.

Pan Am made some political enemies that never forgot. Juan Trippe and subsequent CEOs like Seawell and Acker weren't particularly known for playing nice especially with Congress.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
Italianflyer
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: Pan Am questions

Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:19 am

What I find fascinating about Pan Am's history is how it entangled aviation, innovation, politics & foreign policy. Multiple books, papers, documentaries speculate how Trippes marriage to the sister of SecState and career diplomat Edward Stettinius solidified PAs place as the US "chosen instrument" of international aviation.
PanAms technical experience in overseas navigation brought a woefully unprepared US Army Air Force (precursor to the USAF) into battle ready shape during WWII.

The postwar reward was a hegemony on route authorities that, to this day, made zero economic sense but allowed the US to 'fly the flag' to all corners of the earth. Even after Trippe passed there is an interesting ping pong of management people between PA Tower in Manhattan & Foggy Bottom (or the WH, UN or FAA). Over time political calculus changes but the Company was slow to adapt.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6014
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Pan Am questions

Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:43 am

Remember Conquest’s Third Law, “bureaucracies can best be understood as being run by a secret cabal of their enemies.” The CAB was run for the benefit of the airlines, especially by airlines that didn’t want competition which is to say, a very cozy industry. It was all divided by the companies. Domestic carriers had a nice deal running regulated routes, wanted to see PAA stay a flag carrier.

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