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BealineV953
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Official: AA moving to LHR T-5

Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:49 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
If BA does return 20 A320 series aircraft to lessors, isn't it likely to be those acquired for operations from Gatwick?


Possibly, but more likely the A319s, those were already scheduled to leave the fleet. Pre-COVID IAG were moving towards dense A320 and A321s in favour of the A319. WW refers to aircraft due to leave the fleet, so those would predominantly be A319s, although there were a few A320s too. I think they were mainly ex-BD.


Hello.
If I understood the post correctly, the suggestion was that with BA A320 series aircraft leases being terminated ("20+ A320series frames that are coming off lease...") a significant amount of space would be available at LHR.
Being picky, the BA A319s are owned, not leased. As well as the A319s already being retired at a steady rate, the two one-time GB Airways A320s had planned retirement dates.
The 'G-GATx' A320s are leased, as are at least some of the ex-BD A320s and, I think, the ex-BMed A321s.
With BA flights moving from LGW to LHR (eg JER) I'm not convinced that if 20+ A320 series aircraft leave the fleet it will create much space at LHR, but I could be wrong.


Hello.
Correction! I should have said:
If I understood the post correctly, the suggestion was that with BA A320 series aircraft leases being terminated ("20+ A320series frames that are coming off lease...") a significant amount of space would be available at LHR.
Being picky, the BA G-EUxx A319s are owned, not leased. As well as A319s being retired at a steady rate, the two one-time GB Airways A320s had planned retirement dates.
The 'G-GATx' A320s are leased, as are the ex-BD A319s, at least some of the ex-BD A320s and, I think, the ex-BMed A321s.
With BA flights moving from LGW to LHR (eg JER) I'm not convinced that if 20+ A320 series aircraft leave the fleet it will create much space at LHR, but I could be wrong.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
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N717TW
Posts: 563
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Re: Official: AA moving to LHR T-5

Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:25 am

sjones1975 wrote:
N717TW wrote:
Once traffic rebounds next year, however, will they be able to operate everything from Terminal 5?



I think you're being optimistic about the level of passenger travel in 2021. I hope that finding T5 space for AA in 2021 turns out to be a problem for BA, because that means traffic levels will be back near normal, pre-COVID times. However, I suspect that things won't bounce back that quick.


While you are probably right, I hope you're wrong!
 
BealineV953
Posts: 186
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Re: Official: AA moving to LHR T-5

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:26 pm

skipness1E wrote:
fcogafa wrote:
The outer pier is divided in two, length wise, one side for arriving pax, the other for departing. Doors (or valves as they are called) have to be opened/closed to block whichever side and allow access to gates on the opposite side. It blocks movement and creates delays to departing pax (and staff) getting to gates further along while arriving pax are herded across. Not a great system

This is Pier 7 and it doesn’t have a floor above it for arrivals which Pier 5 had added and of course the new Pier 6 was built with. It means 313 is a departures only gate and 318/320/322 can’t be accessed when an arriving flight is unloading. It only affects 7 gates in the whole airport though.


Hello.
From the earlier posts, I make it eight T3 gates that have restricted use:
* 313 is departures only gate
* 318, 320, 322 can not be accessed for departures when an arriving flight is offloading.
* 316, 317, 319, 321 are closed to departing passengers while arriving passengers cross the departures corridor to the arrivals side.
Of T3's twenty on pier stands, eight is forty percent, arguably a significant percentage.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
Posts: 186
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Re: Official: AA moving to LHR T-5

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:36 pm

ClassicLover wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
Any plans for expansion you might have seen are on hold.
The charging criteria for the next few years into the 2020s is for a two runway operation as CAPEX is scaled way back.
There is no plan for a T5D in the short to medium term.

Traffic is expected back to pre COVID levels by 2024ish. However given LHR is the prime airport for London and the use it or lose it slots won’t be suspended for that length of time, LHR will be full again in about a year to 18 months as slots open up.


Heathrow Airport Ltd have been clear about the effect of the pandemic on their expansion plans, but has HAL said anything about the effect on the redevelopment of the Central Area?

On 5th May the CEO of Heathrow, John Holland-Kaye, told the House of Commons Transport Committee that the airport's £14billion expansion plan is no longer a priority. “Whether that [the third runway] will be needed we will have to see how things turn out over the next few years. If we are successful in rebuilding the UK economy, we will be needing that in 10 to 15 years' time; if not, then I think we're all in a different world.”

So, the third runway and Terminal 6 are on hold for, probably, 10 to 15 years. However, what has HAL said, if anything, about the existing terminals?

My understanding is that replacing Terminal 3 is urgent. T3 does not comply with current security and Border protocols with departing and arriving passengers using the same corridors. Am I right in thinking that at times doors are closed to prevent departing and arriving passengers mixing?

See here for a recent Heathrow expansion plan:

https://www.heathrowexpansion.com/expan ... g-process/

Ignore the third runway and Terminal 6, and look at the Central Area.
In that plan:
Terminal 2 expands onto the footprint of Terminal 1 and gets a second satellite.
Terminal 3 is demolished.
A new satellite is built on the site of Terminal 3. This satellite is more ‘T5E’ than ‘T5D’; there is space for a ‘T5D’ to be added at a later date.
I believe that ‘T5E’ will be connected to both Terminal 5 and Terminal 2.
At one time the plan was to demolish T3 Pier 7 (built in the sixties to accommodate 747s) to enable a new satellite to be built while most of T3 remained in use.

Of course, I do fully appreciate that Heathrow Airport Ltd will not have a lot of money right now. However, this may not mean that the redevelopment of the Central Area is on hold.
Has anything been said by HAL about the Central Area, or are people guessing?


You might do better copying and pasting this exact post and starting a new thread?

It's not really anything much to do with AA moving to LHR T5, but I'd say a lot of people would have a lot to say on what you've written, so maybe a new topic?


Hello.
I will raise a new 'Heathrow development' thread.
The reason that I and I suspect others (see posts 35 and 74) were wondering about HAL's plans for the Central Area is that if HAL reworks it's master plan, it could be that capacity is added at T5 and there is no need for T3 to reopen. So, AA and the other oneworld carriers may be able to stay in T5 without constraining BA.
The pre-covid HAL master plan is here:

https://aec.heathrowconsultation.com/plans/

In that plan:
Phase 1, by 2026:
• The third runway.
Phase 2, by 2030:
• ‘T2A’, an extension of T2 onto the site of T1.
• ‘T5X’, an extension of T5.
Phase 3, by 2035:
• ‘T5XN’, an extension of T5X.
Phase 4, by 2050:
• ‘T2C’ on the site of T3.
• T5X and T5XN extended.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
Varsity1
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Re: Official: AA moving to LHR T-5

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:28 pm

jfk777 wrote:
With so many flights to the USA from all terminals at Heathrow, the idea of "Pre-Clearance" gets complicated very fast. Is it going to be Pre-Clearance for AA and BA but not Virgin, Delta and United. It all depends on which terminal an airline uses, Heathrow is not going to have several FIS stations.

Pre-Clearance is a great sounding idea, when an airport has one international terminal and one airline dominates that hub it makes sense. In Places like EZE & GRU it could work very nicely. Sydney, Melbourne, and Auckland could be good ones too. ICN, TPE and HKG could too.



AA and BA alone could support pre clearance at LHR. It would be the largest pre clearance station abroad by pax throughput I believe.

I makes sense to me, probably more so than anywhere else in the world other than large Canadian cities.
"PPRuNe will no longer allow discussions regarding Etihad Airlines, its employees, executives, agents, or other representatives. Such threads will be deleted." - ME3 thug airlines suing anyone who brings negative information public..
 
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william
Posts: 3327
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Re: Official: AA moving to LHR T-5

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:55 pm

RvA wrote:
Why do people keep insisting it is temporary when this has been talked about being in the works for a very long time?
BA will not be at 100% capacity for a few years likely anyway so this is a great time to do it.


Some people will miss the T3-T5 bus connection I guess. :rotfl: What first time pax connecting from AA to BA after a 7 hour flight would not enjoy getting off at T3 not knowing how get to T5 except to follow the "crowd" down a sterile corridor to the bus depot......errrr..........transfer station. Get on a 15-20 minute bus ride through dark tunnels stop on the back side of T5. Go up three floors and have the joy of reentering security one more time. Realizing as you are standing in security line and that an hour fifteen minutes of your two hour connection time is gone. Through security down the stairs to the mall, trying to keep wifey focused because she wants to go "look" at the Christian Dior store (Dang that store is big) but you both have only 30 minutes to get on the train, get to the next concourse to go up again three floors :o ( what is your fascination with height?) Get to the gate 10 minutes left, walk down one floor to the departure gate.......................No, I do not know why AA's move to T5 would be permanent? Its SOOOOO much more fun connecting from T3. :D
 
VS11
Posts: 1661
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: Official: AA moving to LHR T-5

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:25 pm

william wrote:
RvA wrote:
Why do people keep insisting it is temporary when this has been talked about being in the works for a very long time?
BA will not be at 100% capacity for a few years likely anyway so this is a great time to do it.


Some people will miss the T3-T5 bus connection I guess. :rotfl: What first time pax connecting from AA to BA after a 7 hour flight would not enjoy getting off at T3 not knowing how get to T5 except to follow the "crowd" down a sterile corridor to the bus depot......errrr..........transfer station. Get on a 15-20 minute bus ride through dark tunnels stop on the back side of T5. Go up three floors and have the joy of reentering security one more time. Realizing as you are standing in security line and that an hour fifteen minutes of your two hour connection time is gone. Through security down the stairs to the mall, trying to keep wifey focused because she wants to go "look" at the Christian Dior store (Dang that store is big) but you both have only 30 minutes to get on the train, get to the next concourse to go up again three floors :o ( what is your fascination with height?) Get to the gate 10 minutes left, walk down one floor to the departure gate.......................No, I do not know why AA's move to T5 would be permanent? Its SOOOOO much more fun connecting from T3. :D


Funny. This exact scenario happened to me less than 2 weeks ago. Currently, however, T3 is closed so AA was landing at T2 early July. By August it was already operating out of T5.

Also, even if you land at T5 and your next flight is at T5 you still need to go through security. As to making connections at LHR, the Purple line/signs will lead you to the Transfer Bus Gate.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Official: AA moving to LHR T-5

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:27 pm

Just to report, last week when I pass T5, all AA aircraft parked in T5B gates in the northern end. I can see Qatar Airways aircraft in T5B as well but in southern end. BA aircrafts are in between.
 
BealineV953
Posts: 186
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:00 am

Re: Official: AA moving to LHR T-5

Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:37 am

Opus99 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
Opus99 wrote:
There aren't actually that many flights moving to LGW, yes all of LGW short haul with a lot of destinations still cancelled.
Lest we forget the 20+ A320series frames that are coming off lease that will be returned to lessors.

Think about frames. it's frames that directly use space not destinations. if you think how much they're chopping off, there's space. WW said BA is not getting back to its 2019 size till AT LEAST 2024


Hello.
Where you say he "20+ A320series frames that are coming off lease that will be returned to lessors", are you referring to the Willie Walsh statement at the IAG Investors briefing in April?

At that briefing WW said:
"Our analysis of the likely evolution of demand through 2020 is that we would not require all of our aircraft, that we will temporarily ground, to come back into service, so we're now evaluating how many of those that will be grounded will be permanently grounded."
WW said that the thirty-one B747-400s operated by British Airways and the sixteen A340-600s flying for Iberia are all fully depreciated and will be the first to leave the fleet, and that "a couple" of A330s operated by Aer Lingus could also be permanently retired.
The group could also retire around 20 narrowbody aircraft. Walsh did not specify from which carrier they would come.
"I would also point out that we have a significant number of narrowbody aircraft coming off lease as we go through 2020, into 2021, over 40 narrowbodies come off lease in 2021. So there's a lot of flexibility in the fleet," Walsh added.
"At this stage, we are looking at delaying CAPEX... We are having a very good dialogue with the OEMs, Boeing and Airbus, as you would expect, and that has been very constructive, so I'm pleased in relation to that, so we do have flexibility in relation to our contracts but also in the discussions that we're having with them - we're expecting additional flexibility."

Since that statement, have IAG and / or BA said that it would be BA that will return 20 A320 series aircraft to lessors?
If so, isn't it likely to be those acquired for operations from Gatwick?


Hasn’t been officially announced. This is coming from insiders.


At the IAG Second Quarter results presentation (31st July), under "right sizing the business for the future" for BA amongst other things it says:
• 4 A380s to be temporarily grounded
• 6 B777s to be temporarily grounded
• 747 fleet exited through early retirements
• 18 narrow body aircraft to be temporarily grounded
• 13 Airbus narrow bodies to be retired early
• A318 fleet exited

The 6 B777s to be temporarily grounded may be LHR or LGW based, or a mixture of the two.
The 18 narrow body aircraft to be temporarily grounded may be LHR and / or LGW based Airbuses, and / or LCY based Embraers.
If BA means what it says about not restarting Gatwick shorthaul services, the 10 LGW based leased A320s (G-GATx) and the 10 LGW based leased A319s (G-DBCx) may be vulnerable. None of these are containerised, which may mean they are unlikely to transfer to LHR (although over the past year some of the ex-bmi A319s have operated from LHR).
The 13 Airbus narrow bodies to be retired early may be LHR or LGW based, or a mixture. Nine LHR based A319s had pre-covid retirement dates running from SEP ’20 to OCT ’22 (from Flyertalk) and these may be included in the “13 Airbus narrow bodies” to be retired early.
The pre-covid plan put the 747 fleet at 25 at year end.
The presentation did not mention the retirement of the last two B777 ‘A’s.
Given the uncertainty, unsurprisingly, the presentation does not say anything about when the temporary groundings will come to an end.

There have been ‘post-Covid’ new aircraft deliveries.
One A350 was delivered in May. Three more are or were due later this year.
Two B787-10 were delivered in June. Two more are or were due later this year.
Two B777-300 are due later this year, with two more early next year.
One A320 was delivered in March.
One A321 was delivered in March, and another in June.
So, a number of the retirements are offset by new deliveries.
For the IAG group overall, the IAG presentation states “deliveries of 68 new aircraft due in 2020 to 2022 deferred.”

A number of posters appear to be suggesting that the reduction in BA flying at Heathrow will create enough space for BA’s oneworld partners to remain in Terminal 5 permanently. With that in mind, I’m curious to know how much smaller the BA Heathrow based fleet will be after the covid reductions.

For what it is worth, my guess is:
The Heathrow based widebody fleet will be around 25 aircraft smaller. The A380 and any LHR based 777 groundings will be offset by new deliveries. The reduction is the 25 747s having gone. Pre-covid around 5 of the 747s operated from T3. At any one time 5 or so 747s would have been on maintenance.
The Heathrow based narrow-body fleet will remain more or less the size it was pre-covid. Bear in mind that a number of shorthaul routes that were operated from T3 and a number of LGW shorthaul routes (eg JER) now operate from Heathrow T5.

So, as the BA schedule ramps up, at T5 there will be something like 15 fewer daily arrivals and departures than there were pre-covid.
Is 15 turnrounds at T5 enough to enable all the oneworld carriers to operate from T5 permanently?
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’

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