Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
MonAmQB
Topic Author
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:16 pm

CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Sat Jul 04, 2020 2:53 am

Searched and didn't see this one posted.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3957916

"In an unprecedented incident, the pilots of a China Airlines (CAL) Airbus A330 had to switch to manual braking during a landing in Taipei because three computer systems lost power simultaneously, reports said Friday (July 3).

As a result, the plane came to a halt just 9 meters from the end of the runway at Taipei Songshan Airport, according to CNA. None of the more than 80 passengers on board were injured."
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4899
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:21 am

MonAmQB wrote:
Searched and didn't see this one posted.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3957916

"In an unprecedented incident, the pilots of a China Airlines (CAL) Airbus A330 had to switch to manual braking during a landing in Taipei because three computer systems lost power simultaneously, reports said Friday (July 3).

As a result, the plane came to a halt just 9 meters from the end of the runway at Taipei Songshan Airport, according to CNA. None of the more than 80 passengers on board were injured."

Losing Both BSCU's is pretty serious. That had to be a Buss power loss as the alternate brakes worked manually. So? they lost auto braking power. That's not an easy failure. I worked Airbus troubleshooting for 13 years and never had that happen.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2638
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:53 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Losing Both BSCU's is pretty serious. That had to be a Buss power loss as the alternate brakes worked manually. So? they lost auto braking power. That's not an easy failure. I worked Airbus troubleshooting for 13 years and never had that happen.


I also agree that this is highly unusual. It could be a Bus Pwr issue, but I would also have a look at installation and T/S for the previous several sectors. Were the boxes swapped to attempt a fault-follow? If so, cannon plug connected but not all the way slide-closed? These are WAGs, but also the 1st place to look. Having all three boxes go bad would be incredible odds & likely a first, so I am not inclined to think that was the case...
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
pugman211
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:45 am

Wow, so it lost auto brake, thrust reverse and spoilers in one go? Wouldn't the T/R be part of FADEC?

Sounds scary as hell Bet the pilots were swinging off the manual brakes :shock:
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19731
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:11 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Losing Both BSCU's is pretty serious. That had to be a Buss power loss as the alternate brakes worked manually. So? they lost auto braking power. That's not an easy failure. I worked Airbus troubleshooting for 13 years and never had that happen.


I also agree that this is highly unusual. It could be a Bus Pwr issue, but I would also have a look at installation and T/S for the previous several sectors. Were the boxes swapped to attempt a fault-follow? If so, cannon plug connected but not all the way slide-closed? These are WAGs, but also the 1st place to look. Having all three boxes go bad would be incredible odds & likely a first, so I am not inclined to think that was the case...

There are normally many redundancies. Somewhere something is a single point failure. Probably something connected with QA witness... that wasn't.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
747classic
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:13 am

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:06 pm

See (for a little bit more technical info ) : http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4d97ca46&opt=0

Look also for the METAR's :

Crew decided to land at RW10 (ILS) with tailwind, wet runway, TSRA, because landing at RW 28 was below or at visibilty limits.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
AstroNav
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:51 am

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:11 pm

Does this mean that braking was end-2-end hydraulic, bypassing the "electrical interception"?
 
trex8
Posts: 5553
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:06 am

This plane B18302 was used quite regularly through April then in May was used every 4 days or so (not uncommon it looks like for any of their widebody fleet during the last few months of covid) till Jun 12 when it went to KHH and looks like it did two training flights in and out KHH and then back to TSA same day for this Jun 14 flight
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/b-18302

Could any of that be of any relevance to what happened?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 1706
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:29 am

AstroNav wrote:
Does this mean that braking was end-2-end hydraulic, bypassing the "electrical interception"?

I believe there is not connection (mechanical or hydraulics) between the brake pedals and the brake actuators on the Airbus, and all go through the EHSVs (Electro-Hydraulic Servo-Valves); it could just be that "manual braking" means that the EHSVs are directly controlled by the brake pedals, with no automatic braking, no ABS, nothing of the sort.
 
N6168E
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:57 am

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:42 pm

Just tossing this out there. There were only 80 pax onboard. In normal times with a fuller passenger load, how much higher would the approach speed be and could they have had an overrun?
Thanks,
 
trex8
Posts: 5553
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:03 pm

N6168E wrote:
Just tossing this out there. There were only 80 pax onboard. In normal times with a fuller passenger load, how much higher would the approach speed be and could they have had an overrun?
Thanks,

They may have been very loaded up with cargo even with a light pax load. (though to be fair they usually are loaded up with cargo most of the time anyway on many flights and they do have 744Fs flying to Shanghai still but maybe this flight might be more cargo loaded than usual with covid). While CI has seen a 99% drop in pax with covid, their cargo is way up YOY and their total revenue down only 20 ish %.
I see looking further back on flightradar 24 in March the plane was out of service 2 weeks and had 2 test flights. If some mx problem occurred then I assume this would likely have already manifest itself on the numerous flights it has had in April/may?
 
User avatar
Nomadd
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:26 pm

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:23 pm

I saw something like this happen on a ship once because in spite of almost completely separate, redundant systems, they amazingly connected all the sensors to a single return which came loose.
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:30 pm

Setting the potential systems failures aside, why did the pilots choose to land with a 8 kt. tailwind (gusting to 19 kt.) on a relatively-short (8,500+/- Ft.), wet runway?
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14974
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:25 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
Setting the potential systems failures aside, why did the pilots choose to land with a 8 kt. tailwind (gusting to 19 kt.) on a relatively-short (8,500+/- Ft.), wet runway?


My guess is the weather, the other direction (RW28) the best approach available is the RNAV which gets them down to around 840 ft and requires 3600 m of visibility, the RW10 ILS minima is 253 ft with a 4% go around gradient and required RVR of 750m. The metar reported at the time indicates a RVR of around 1500 m and a few clouds at 600 ft.

A landing calculation on Runway 10 with 10 knots of tailwind, on a wet runway, low autobrake, and no reverse shows some margin on landing with a landing weight of 175 tonnes which would be a freighter flight with 40-45 tonnes of cargo and holding TPE as an alternate. With the failure of PRIM 1/2/3 the landing distance exceeds the runway available in those conditions with low autobrake and no reverse. A margin of 300 ft is shown when manual brakes are used.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
FLALEFTY
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:06 pm

zeke wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
Setting the potential systems failures aside, why did the pilots choose to land with a 8 kt. tailwind (gusting to 19 kt.) on a relatively-short (8,500+/- Ft.), wet runway?


My guess is the weather, the other direction (RW28) the best approach available is the RNAV which gets them down to around 840 ft and requires 3600 m of visibility, the RW10 ILS minima is 253 ft with a 4% go around gradient and required RVR of 750m. The metar reported at the time indicates a RVR of around 1500 m and a few clouds at 600 ft.

A landing calculation on Runway 10 with 10 knots of tailwind, on a wet runway, low autobrake, and no reverse shows some margin on landing with a landing weight of 175 tonnes which would be a freighter flight with 40-45 tonnes of cargo and holding TPE as an alternate. With the failure of PRIM 1/2/3 the landing distance exceeds the runway available in those conditions with low autobrake and no reverse. A margin of 300 ft is shown when manual brakes are used.


Thanks for the clear explanation. It was close, but at least everyone was safe and the aircraft avoided serious damage.

I'm surprised by this one because the A330 has been such a safe and reliable aircraft for so many years. Airbus engineers have been very careful to design out single-point failure modes in their aircraft, but somehow "Murphy's Law" overruled in this case. But they will find it and fix it where it cannot happen again.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14974
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: CI A330 loses 3 computer systems during landing

Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:03 am

FLALEFTY wrote:

Thanks for the clear explanation. It was close, but at least everyone was safe and the aircraft avoided serious damage.

I'm surprised by this one because the A330 has been such a safe and reliable aircraft for so many years. Airbus engineers have been very careful to design out single-point failure modes in their aircraft, but somehow "Murphy's Law" overruled in this case. But they will find it and fix it where it cannot happen again.


It’s a bit hard to speculate how this happened, my initial thoughts maybe some sort of electrical interruption. They may have dispatched for example with a generator 2 operative, had a momentary power glitch on touchdown which resulted in the essential bus momentarily going without power, enough to fit the prims to be reset.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos