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UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:56 am
by DELee
Based on a May 1970 United route map post by erussell1984/airbus777 on Flickr (https://www.flickr.com/photos/erussell1984/26415986889/) that shows an inset map of non-stop routes (https://www.flickr.com/photos/189070686 ... 081508578/).

nonstoproutestohawaii-may1970.jpg


My question is: Where would I find info on the route frequency and aircraft for some of these United flights to Hawaii such as CLE-HNL or BOS-HNL?

David

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:27 am
by Flaps
I cant answer with regard to frequency but equipment would be all DC8. From the east coast, 62's, from the west coast 50/61/62. Possibly some earlier series DC8's from the west coast as well.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:33 am
by MIflyer12
Have look at the Departed Flights image capture. Their earliest UA timetable is 6/1/72. http://www.departedflights.com/UA060172intro.html

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:36 am
by Cointrin330
Flaps wrote:
I cant answer with regard to frequency but equipment would be all DC8. From the east coast, 62's, from the west coast 50/61/62. Possibly some earlier series DC8's from the west coast as well.


As a little kid in 1970s and early 1980s, I'd watch re-runs of the Brady Bunch and always loved the two or three episode special when they all go to Hawaii. There is footage of a UA DC8 landing at HNL in one episode. I once did a little bit of research on UA's service to Hawaii and found that the vast majority of services before the 747 was indeed the DC8.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:06 am
by OzarkD9S
I found this link from 1969:

http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/ua69.htm

You'll have to click each page on the left.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:02 pm
by modernArt
OzarkD9S wrote:


http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/ua/ua69/ua69-02.jpg
Here's a page from above with the complete Hawaiian schedules. Only LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Chicago and NYC.

It's pretty unlikely that United ever served any of cities on the route map with regular nonstop flights at the time. Maybe they were served once a season nonstop...but that might only appear in a OAG.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 4:56 pm
by MO11
These were all routes that were awarded to UA by the CAB in November 1968 as part of a Transpacific Route Investigation. Most were never served. AA, BN, CO, NW, TW, and WA also got generous route authorities out of this route investigation.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:05 pm
by airzona11
BUF to HNL Non-Stop? How great is that.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:13 pm
by dfwjim1
In the opening of the original Hawaii 5-0 series one of the shots was of a DC8 landing at HNL. Not sure if it was UAL though.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:28 pm
by OzarkD9S
dfwjim1 wrote:

In the opening of the original Hawaii 5-0 series one of the shots was of a DC8 landing at HNL. Not sure if it was UAL though.


It was indeed, pre-Saul Bass livery,

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:45 pm
by dfwjim1
OzarkD9S wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:

In the opening of the original Hawaii 5-0 series one of the shots was of a DC8 landing at HNL. Not sure if it was UAL though.


t was indeed, pre Saul Bass livery,


Okay. Forgot to mention that in the second Hawaii 5-0 series there was a shot of an Hawaiian Airlines A330 but I guess this was a paid for ad by HA as I did not see it in subsequent episodes.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:09 pm
by barefootchris
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR8RHBXjMlE

Here is the original Hawaii Five-0 opening title. Aircraft is at 43 seconds in. You all are better than me to identify it from that fleeting glimpse.

Interestingly, the intro clip that Google/YouTube found seems to involve a dead airline passenger. Is that flight attendant/stewardess uniform accurate? (My airline experiences begin in the mid to late 1990s).

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:07 am
by 880dc8707
Yes the F/A uniform is accurate,- Hawaii 5-0 2nd installment- had Hawaiian airbus almost every week,
There was never PHL - HNL non stops on a regular basis, nor many others as noted above.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:56 am
by millionsofmiles
880dc8707 wrote:
Yes the F/A uniform is accurate,- Hawaii 5-0 2nd installment- had Hawaiian airbus almost every week,
There was never PHL - HNL non stops on a regular basis, nor many others as noted above.


United stewardesses of the era wore flower print muu-muus on Hawaiian flights, not the standard domestic uniform as featured in the clip. The headrest covers were accurate for United Hawaiian flights of the era, but the entry area in which the stewardess is standing appears to belong to either a 727 or a 720, while the cabin is that of a DC-8.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:00 am
by RWA380
modernArt wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:


http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/ua/ua69/ua69-02.jpg
Here's a page from above with the complete Hawaiian schedules. Only LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Chicago and NYC.

It's pretty unlikely that United ever served any of cities on the route map with regular nonstop flights at the time. Maybe they were served once a season nonstop...but that might only appear in a OAG.


UA had some odd Hawaii routes in the CAB days, I just found the ITO-ORD n/s Fr only DC-8 service noted in a 1975 timetable - http://www.departedflights.com/UA061176p40.html
IIRC UA was one of the only mainland carriers that carried local traffic HNL-ITO when the ITO routes came with HNL awards.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:04 am
by MIflyer12
ITO-ORD is quite a timetable find.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:51 pm
by cathay747
MO11 wrote:
These were all routes that were awarded to UA by the CAB in November 1968 as part of a Transpacific Route Investigation. Most were never served. AA, BN, CO, NW, TW, and WA also got generous route authorities out of this route investigation.


:checkmark:

Many airline route maps in the day were inaccurate in showing "certificated routes" which actually weren't operated but with no footnote indicating such, making the map deceptive. Look at this 1969 route map of CO:

http://www.departedflights.com/CO102669.html

It shows HNL <-> MKC/DEN/PHX which they never operated and I'm not sure if they'd started SEA/PDX yet (but they did operate those).

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:59 pm
by cathay747
airzona11 wrote:
BUF to HNL Non-Stop? How great is that.


It never operated. Nor did nonstops from CLE/BOS/PHL/PIT/DTW-HNL. UA only operated nonstops from ORD/JFK/BAL. The BAL flight did a tag to/from PHL; IIRC a DTW tag was done on the ORD flight, although I think it was an on/off thing. And initially, they were all done with the DC-8-62H; ORD eventually became the only surviving route, and of course transitioned to a 747.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:07 pm
by jmscsc
My first trip to Hawaii was with UA in the mid-80's. The routing was BDL-BOS-LAX-HNL and all were on a DC-10. The return was HNL-ORD (747) and ORD-BDL (DC-8). It was the first time that I flew each of those aircraft types!

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:12 pm
by cathay747
MIflyer12 wrote:
ITO-ORD is quite a timetable find.


CO route maps (including the 1969 one I just posed above) also show ITO-ORD, and I swear I've seen in a schedule that they actually operated the route, also eastbound-only same as UA, but the departedflights website doesn't have a CO timetable or OAG earlier than 1974 so I can't remember where I think I saw it; it may have been another certificated route as I mention above that was never operated. I just have a really strong memory of CO doing it though, but that it was very short-lived.

The CAB was "in collusion" with the state of HI in that they required all those airlines granted Hawaii route authority in the T-Pac Route Investigation to include some minimum level of service to ITO besides HNL; nearly all did it as a tag on a LAX route.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:22 pm
by barefootchris
There really has NEVER been nonstop service PHL to HNL (or any Hawai'ian island)? I find it odd it couldn't be profitable. Maybe I'm just wishful thinking as PHL is my home airport. Last I checked, not even EWR, right? JFK only?

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:37 pm
by MIflyer12
cathay747 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ITO-ORD is quite a timetable find.


CO route maps (including the 1969 one I just posed above) also show ITO-ORD, and I swear I've seen in a schedule that they actually operated the route, also eastbound-only same as UA, but the departedflights website doesn't have a CO timetable or OAG earlier than 1974 so I can't remember where I think I saw it; it may have been another certificated route as I mention above that was never operated. I just have a really strong memory of CO doing it though, but that it was very short-lived.

The CAB was "in collusion" with the state of HI in that they required all those airlines granted Hawaii route authority in the T-Pac Route Investigation to include some minimum level of service to ITO besides HNL; nearly all did it as a tag on a LAX route.


It's in the timetable linked by RWA380. It shows ITO-ORD as a non-stop. Whether they actually operated it I can't say.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:45 pm
by Trk1
United did operate the following Dc8-62 non stop routes:

JFK/HNL. BTW/HNL DTW/HNL. ORD/HNL

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:56 pm
by eta unknown
cathay747 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
BUF to HNL Non-Stop? How great is that.


It never operated. Nor did nonstops from CLE/BOS/PHL/PIT/DTW-HNL. UA only operated nonstops from ORD/JFK/BAL. The BAL flight did a tag to/from PHL; IIRC a DTW tag was done on the ORD flight, although I think it was an on/off thing. And initially, they were all done with the DC-8-62H; ORD eventually became the only surviving route, and of course transitioned to a 747.


When ORD-HNL transitioned to 747, the flight originated in JFK. As a kid got to fly it once (first class over to HNL, economy back).

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:56 pm
by hawaiian717
880dc8707 wrote:
Hawaii 5-0 2nd installment- had Hawaiian airbus almost every week


The Hawaiian A330 appears in the opening titles sequence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNCu4Uh-JqU

barefootchris wrote:
Last I checked, not even EWR, right? JFK only?


United has operated EWR-HNL for a while now.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:06 pm
by Trk1
This is from a closed 18 year old thread on this forum:

United operated DC-8-62's to HNL from ORD, JFK, DTW, and BWI (then BAL), prior to the introduction of the 747. Only the ORD service was maintained, later operated by both 747's and DC-10's until last last spring when the DC-10's were retired.

After being replaced by wide bodies, the Series 62's were used interchangably with series 20 and 50 aircraft in domestic service. United kept their non fan jet JT-4 powered DC-8's in service longer than most other carriers. The DC-8-33's acquired from Pan Am in 1967-68 were grounded first and parked at DEN in 1974. The series 20's were gone by 1978 being replaced by 727-222A's (N72XXU and N74XXU). The JT-3D powered series 50 passenger aircraft were all retired by 1981. I believe that the 62's were parked at the same time. The airline continued to operate Series 50 all cargo aircraft until about 1986. Two of these aircraft were lost in accidents, one near SLC and the other near DTW. The series 61's were all converted to CF-56 powered series 70 aircraft and were retired by about 1992. The Series 62 aircraft were not repowered because they didn't carry enough passengers to make it economically feasible. Their capacity was similar to a 727-222.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:27 pm
by codc10
cathay747 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ITO-ORD is quite a timetable find.


CO route maps (including the 1969 one I just posed above) also show ITO-ORD, and I swear I've seen in a schedule that they actually operated the route, also eastbound-only same as UA, but the departedflights website doesn't have a CO timetable or OAG earlier than 1974 so I can't remember where I think I saw it; it may have been another certificated route as I mention above that was never operated. I just have a really strong memory of CO doing it though, but that it was very short-lived.

The CAB was "in collusion" with the state of HI in that they required all those airlines granted Hawaii route authority in the T-Pac Route Investigation to include some minimum level of service to ITO besides HNL; nearly all did it as a tag on a LAX route.


The State of Hawaii maintains a tremendous website on the fascinating history of aviation in the Islands... highly recommended for anyone with a few hours to kill! https://aviation.hawaii.gov/

ITO is a particularly interesting subset of the history of aviation in Hawaii. While lovely, the east side of the Big Island isn't exactly a tourism hotspot, simply because it rains constantly. Yet, the (decaying) airport infrastructure looks to have been constructed for a much higher-volume operation than what it actually serves... in terms of size, it is along the lines of KOA, OGG or LIH with a fraction of the traffic.

Going back to the early 60s, in an effort to promote tourism in the Neighbor Islands, the CAB approved a discount fare structure for Hawaii to encourage island-hopping. Travelers on certain common fares could add interisland segments on AQ or HA for just $5 in conjunction with a mainland itinerary, with the caveat that if a traveler who arrived in HNL passed through Maui, they would have to return to the mainland via ITO (or vice-versa), generally by way of an inclusive-tour package with bus transportation. This was known as the "Maui Fence" and created significant artificial tourist demand in the Hilo area. This is still noticeable in the area today, as much of the large-scale development clearly dates to the 60s and 70s.

During the era of the Maui Fence, PA and UA had mainland service from ITO, and in the late 60s, the CAB awarded routes to Northwest, Braniff, Continental and Western. In 1972, the Maui Fence came down and traffic steadily declined, in favor of the Kona side with much better weather.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:53 pm
by flyingclrs727
dfwjim1 wrote:
In the opening of the original Hawaii 5-0 series one of the shots was of a DC8 landing at HNL. Not sure if it was UAL though.


I'm pretty sure it was a UA DC-8. If you ever read the credits on a Hawaii 5-0 episode, it says that United provided air travel in exchange for promotion.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:03 pm
by vfw614
From what I gather, KOA and OGG only started to have mainland flights in the early 1980s - what was the reason for that?

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:16 pm
by ZazuPIT
cathay747 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
BUF to HNL Non-Stop? How great is that.


It never operated. Nor did nonstops from CLE/BOS/PHL/PIT/DTW-HNL. UA only operated nonstops from ORD/JFK/BAL. The BAL flight did a tag to/from PHL; IIRC a DTW tag was done on the ORD flight, although I think it was an on/off thing. And initially, they were all done with the DC-8-62H; ORD eventually became the only surviving route, and of course transitioned to a 747.


DTW did have a nonstop according to UAs April 26, 1970 timetable.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:18 pm
by departedflights
cathay747 wrote:
Many airline route maps in the day were inaccurate in showing "certificated routes" which actually weren't operated but with no footnote indicating such, making the map deceptive. Look at this 1969 route map of CO:

http://www.departedflights.com/CO102669.html

It shows HNL <-> MKC/DEN/PHX which they never operated and I'm not sure if they'd started SEA/PDX yet (but they did operate those).


cathay747 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
CO route maps (including the 1969 one I just posed above) also show ITO-ORD, and I swear I've seen in a schedule that they actually operated the route, also eastbound-only same as UA, but the departedflights website doesn't have a CO timetable or OAG earlier than 1974 so I can't remember where I think I saw it; it may have been another certificated route as I mention above that was never operated. I just have a really strong memory of CO doing it though, but that it was very short-lived.


Regarding the Continental October 26, 1969 timetable:

At this time, Continental was operating 3 daily Los Angeles-Honolulu flights. There was also 1 daily Portland-Seattle-Honolulu flight and 1 daily return Honolulu-Portland-Seattle flight.

There was, indeed, one weekly Saturday only service that operated Chicago-Hilo-Honolulu-Chicago.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:56 pm
by MO11
vfw614 wrote:
From what I gather, KOA and OGG only started to have mainland flights in the early 1980s - what was the reason for that?


1. Airport runway limitations.

2. The neighbor islands weren't nearly popular tourist destinations as they are today.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:01 pm
by cathay747
Thanks all for the bits about CO on ITO-ORD nonstop...I KNEW I'd seen it in a schedule and wasn't hallucinating!! LOL

Also, I stand corrected on UA DTW-HNL nonstop...as I was typing my reply above, I hesitated about DTW as I wasn't 100% sure it wasn't nonstop and settled on my fuzzy memory that DTW was a tag from ORD. Thanks for the info.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:36 pm
by cathay747
codc10 wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
ITO-ORD is quite a timetable find.


CO route maps (including the 1969 one I just posed above) also show ITO-ORD, and I swear I've seen in a schedule that they actually operated the route, also eastbound-only same as UA, but the departedflights website doesn't have a CO timetable or OAG earlier than 1974 so I can't remember where I think I saw it; it may have been another certificated route as I mention above that was never operated. I just have a really strong memory of CO doing it though, but that it was very short-lived.

The CAB was "in collusion" with the state of HI in that they required all those airlines granted Hawaii route authority in the T-Pac Route Investigation to include some minimum level of service to ITO besides HNL; nearly all did it as a tag on a LAX route.


The State of Hawaii maintains a tremendous website on the fascinating history of aviation in the Islands... highly recommended for anyone with a few hours to kill! https://aviation.hawaii.gov/

ITO is a particularly interesting subset of the history of aviation in Hawaii. While lovely, the east side of the Big Island isn't exactly a tourism hotspot, simply because it rains constantly. Yet, the (decaying) airport infrastructure looks to have been constructed for a much higher-volume operation than what it actually serves... in terms of size, it is along the lines of KOA, OGG or LIH with a fraction of the traffic.

Going back to the early 60s, in an effort to promote tourism in the Neighbor Islands, the CAB approved a discount fare structure for Hawaii to encourage island-hopping. Travelers on certain common fares could add interisland segments on AQ or HA for just $5 in conjunction with a mainland itinerary, with the caveat that if a traveler who arrived in HNL passed through Maui, they would have to return to the mainland via ITO (or vice-versa), generally by way of an inclusive-tour package with bus transportation. This was known as the "Maui Fence" and created significant artificial tourist demand in the Hilo area. This is still noticeable in the area today, as much of the large-scale development clearly dates to the 60s and 70s.

During the era of the Maui Fence, PA and UA had mainland service from ITO, and in the late 60s, the CAB awarded routes to Northwest, Braniff, Continental and Western. In 1972, the Maui Fence came down and traffic steadily declined, in favor of the Kona side with much better weather.


Fascinating info I never knew...the Maui Fence details. Sure sheds a LOT more light on what I knew and what I said above. Thank you!!

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:58 am
by DELee
ZazuPIT wrote:
cathay747 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
BUF to HNL Non-Stop? How great is that.


It never operated. Nor did nonstops from CLE/BOS/PHL/PIT/DTW-HNL. UA only operated nonstops from ORD/JFK/BAL. The BAL flight did a tag to/from PHL; IIRC a DTW tag was done on the ORD flight, although I think it was an on/off thing. And initially, they were all done with the DC-8-62H; ORD eventually became the only surviving route, and of course transitioned to a 747.


DTW did have a nonstop according to UAs April 26, 1970 timetable.


Do you have a link to an online version of the UA April 26, 1970 timetable?

David

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:58 am
by Tan Flyr
barefootchris wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR8RHBXjMlE

Here is the original Hawaii Five-0 opening title. Aircraft is at 43 seconds in. You all are better than me to identify it from that fleeting glimpse.

Interestingly, the intro clip that Google/YouTube found seems to involve a dead airline passenger. Is that flight attendant/stewardess uniform accurate? (My airline experiences begin in the mid to late 1990s).


The DC 8 in that quick shot was at least a 62, and perhaps a 61. The camera angle distorts the length a bit. But no doubt a DC8.

BTW, the 3 seconds of the woman running on the beach is a classic also. Just my 2 cents.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:28 am
by codc10
vfw614 wrote:
From what I gather, KOA and OGG only started to have mainland flights in the early 1980s - what was the reason for that?


Both OGG and KOA mainland service launched in 1983 with United DC-8s. LIH and ITO started around the same time and operated briefly; in the case of LIH, until Hurricane Iniki.

After deregulation, nonstop mainland service at ITO went away for a while until the Kona side developed into a major resort area in the 80s. Widebody flights nonstop to the mainland didn't come to KOA until the 90s when the runway was extended. Similar to Hawaii, Maui resort areas (starting with Kaanapali) were in their infancy in the early 80s, so the nonstop market hadn't really developed yet.

departedflights wrote:
There was, indeed, one weekly Saturday only service that operated Chicago-Hilo-Honolulu-Chicago.


During much of the CAB era, the only really economical fares to Hawaii were a special group tariff for travel agents and tour operators that required a minimum purchase of 40 (I think) passengers on a given itinerary, so many tourists of the era came to Hawaii as part of a guided "island hopping" tour over 7 nights. Because of the Maui Fence, island-hopping passengers arriving ITO had to depart for the mainland from HNL. The interisland segment on CO and other airlines (in the pre-deregulation era) was not available for local sale unless part of a transpacific fare.

I would imagine the CO ORD-ITO-HNL-ORD round robin was substantially driven by Chicagoland travel agency sales and tour operators, shepherding large groups of passengers all over the Islands for a week at a time.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:38 am
by jsnww81
codc10 wrote:

ITO is a particularly interesting subset of the history of aviation in Hawaii. While lovely, the east side of the Big Island isn't exactly a tourism hotspot, simply because it rains constantly. Yet, the (decaying) airport infrastructure looks to have been constructed for a much higher-volume operation than what it actually serves... in terms of size, it is along the lines of KOA, OGG or LIH with a fraction of the traffic.

Going back to the early 60s, in an effort to promote tourism in the Neighbor Islands, the CAB approved a discount fare structure for Hawaii to encourage island-hopping. Travelers on certain common fares could add interisland segments on AQ or HA for just $5 in conjunction with a mainland itinerary, with the caveat that if a traveler who arrived in HNL passed through Maui, they would have to return to the mainland via ITO (or vice-versa), generally by way of an inclusive-tour package with bus transportation. This was known as the "Maui Fence" and created significant artificial tourist demand in the Hilo area. This is still noticeable in the area today, as much of the large-scale development clearly dates to the 60s and 70s.

During the era of the Maui Fence, PA and UA had mainland service from ITO, and in the late 60s, the CAB awarded routes to Northwest, Braniff, Continental and Western. In 1972, the Maui Fence came down and traffic steadily declined, in favor of the Kona side with much better weather.


The saga of mainland service in Hilo is definitely one of the more interesting chapters in Hawaiian aviation. As you said, in the early 1960s the state was actively looking to develop a second gateway to supplement HNL. Hilo was (and still is!) the second-biggest city in the state, and ITO was sited on a large parcel of land with plenty of space for development. Kona was still using its old airport near town, which had a very short runway that could barely handle DC9s and One-Elevens. Accordingly Hilo's main runway was extended to handle jet flights to the mainland in 1965, and service actually started in 1967 - initially just United and Pan Am. For a little while it seemed to work, thanks to the Maui Fence, and most of today's very dated hotels on Banyan Drive were built during this era to handle the influx of tourists.

Two years later came the CAB route case that more than doubled flights to Hawaii - and in came NW, BN, CO and WA (American was given Honolulu flights, but was not authorized to serve Hilo). Hilo built a dedicated overseas building the same year, and started design work on today's (very large) terminal complex. My mom grew up on Maui and attended college in San Francisco from 1970-74, and regularly flew OGG-ITO-SFO to get to and from school.

As you pointed out, once the Maui Fence came down it became pretty clear that tourists weren't going to spend a lot of time in Hilo if they didn't have to. Pan Am and Braniff pulled out in 1972, just as construction on the new terminal started. It opened in 1976 with separate wings for overseas and interisland traffic and seven jetbridge gates.

Continental and Northwest pulled out pretty much as soon as Deregulation passed in 1978, and Western followed in 1981. By then resort construction was in full swing on the leeward side of every island, and so demand flipped to Kona (and to Maui and Kauai) where there was reliable sunshine and sandy beaches. United hung on at Hilo until 1986, although they started service to Kona in 1983-84 as well. That was pretty much the end of mainland service for another twenty years, until ATA gave Hilo a shot in the aughties.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:21 pm
by cathay747
jsnww81 wrote:

The saga of mainland service in Hilo is definitely one of the more interesting chapters in Hawaiian aviation. As you said, in the early 1960s the state was actively looking to develop a second gateway to supplement HNL. Hilo was (and still is!) the second-biggest city in the state, and ITO was sited on a large parcel of land with plenty of space for development. Kona was still using its old airport near town, which had a very short runway that could barely handle DC9s and One-Elevens. Accordingly Hilo's main runway was extended to handle jet flights to the mainland in 1965, and service actually started in 1967 - initially just United and Pan Am. For a little while it seemed to work, thanks to the Maui Fence, and most of today's very dated hotels on Banyan Drive were built during this era to handle the influx of tourists.

Two years later came the CAB route case that more than doubled flights to Hawaii - and in came NW, BN, CO and WA (American was given Honolulu flights, but was not authorized to serve Hilo). Hilo built a dedicated overseas building the same year, and started design work on today's (very large) terminal complex. My mom grew up on Maui and attended college in San Francisco from 1970-74, and regularly flew OGG-ITO-SFO to get to and from school.

As you pointed out, once the Maui Fence came down it became pretty clear that tourists weren't going to spend a lot of time in Hilo if they didn't have to. Pan Am and Braniff pulled out in 1972, just as construction on the new terminal started. It opened in 1976 with separate wings for overseas and interisland traffic and seven jetbridge gates.

Continental and Northwest pulled out pretty much as soon as Deregulation passed in 1978, and Western followed in 1981. By then resort construction was in full swing on the leeward side of every island, and so demand flipped to Kona (and to Maui and Kauai) where there was reliable sunshine and sandy beaches. United hung on at Hilo until 1986, although they started service to Kona in 1983-84 as well. That was pretty much the end of mainland service for another twenty years, until ATA gave Hilo a shot in the aughties.


Love all this additional info about the ITO situation back then, this is all fascinating and much more than I ever knew; I feel like I'm in school LOL

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:15 pm
by MrBretz
I recall flying from LAX to KOA on UA’s DC-8’s until the end of 1991. I loved the sound of the 4 engines. After that they used DC-10’s even before the runway was lengthened. And for a brief period, I know they used a 747, I think -200s, after the longer runway was put in. I know that since I was on the inaugural flight on the UA 747 from SFO to KOA. I have a handout somewhere that United gave us. We were met by a Hawaiian band and did a flyover of the airport before landing. I think it was in the late 90s sometime. On my last trip over, I was on a 737. What a comedown.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:43 pm
by IAHWorldflyer
Great info here on early service to Hawaii! Some very informative posts.
For the youngsters or non-american readers wondering why Baltimore and Detroit had service, in the 1960 US Census, the largest cities were:
1-New York
2-Chicago
3-Los Angeles
4-Philadelphia
5-Detroit
6-Baltimore
7 Houston
8-Cleveland

Basically, all the top 6 cities had Hawaiian service with the exception I think of PHL. I do not see any n/s service from PHL to HNL in the early OAG's on line. If someone knows differently, I'd be interested.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:17 pm
by DELee
IAHWorldflyer wrote:
Great info here on early service to Hawaii! Some very informative posts.
For the youngsters or non-american readers wondering why Baltimore and Detroit had service, in the 1960 US Census, the largest cities were:
1-New York
2-Chicago
3-Los Angeles
4-Philadelphia
5-Detroit
6-Baltimore
7 Houston
8-Cleveland

Basically, all the top 6 cities had Hawaiian service with the exception I think of PHL. I do not see any n/s service from PHL to HNL in the early OAG's on line. If someone knows differently, I'd be interested.


Another reason Baltimore had service is BAL was the DC area's airport where larger planes could take off and land from so it served much of the greater DC area given the limits at DCA.

David

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:07 pm
by PI4EVR
I flew BAL-HNL in 1971 on an airline employee non-revenue pass. I was able to fly the nonstop as when I called UA to list myself on a IAD-LAX-HNL routing the agent volunteered that a group had canceled on the BAL flight and plenty of seats were available.
I believe it was a Saturday-only nonstop, but a great flight. I did not get F class, but they gave me the entire back row and beyond two meals, the F/A's plied me with Primo beer the entire 9 hours. The crew was fun and personable and very welcoming to another airline employee.
Catering was by "Trader Vic's" and beyond Mai Tai's as the signature drink, I remember the lunch was Chicken Teriyaki and dessert was pineapple cake. A bag of Frito's were served with the beer. The F/A's did wear muumuu's, but we were not met with lei's on arrival as had been mentioned as part of the "Royal Hawaiian" service.
I do remember a big sign in the BAL gate area with a picture of the DC8 with the logo "Super 8 to the Aloha State."
I returned on a routing HNL-SFO-IAD all on DC-8's as well
P.S. Those were the days. I stayed at the Sheraton Surfrider Hotel beachfront on Waikiki Beach for $22 a day and rented a Datsun sedan from Tropical Rent-A-Car for $5 a day! The breakfast buffet in an oceanfront restaurant was an outrageous $10 per person, but an awesome welcome experience to HI on your first morning.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:00 am
by MrBretz
MrBretz wrote:
I recall flying from LAX to KOA on UA’s DC-8’s until the end of 1991. I loved the sound of the 4 engines. After that they used DC-10’s even before the runway was lengthened. And for a brief period, I know they used a 747, I think -200s, after the longer runway was put in. I know that since I was on the inaugural flight on the UA 747 from SFO to KOA. I have a handout somewhere that United gave us. We were met by a Hawaiian band and did a flyover of the airport before landing. I think it was in the late 90s sometime. On my last trip over, I was on a 737. What a comedown.


I have found the date of my 747 flight from SFO to KOA on the aviation.hawaii.gov website that someone else posted. What I found was this:

"United Airlines boosted its direct San Francisco-Kona service carrier from a 285-seat DC-10 to a 747 on March 2, 1994"

Thanks for that site. It has some great information.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:51 pm
by cathay747
IAHWorldflyer wrote:
Great info here on early service to Hawaii! Some very informative posts.
For the youngsters or non-american readers wondering why Baltimore and Detroit had service, in the 1960 US Census, the largest cities were:
1-New York
2-Chicago
3-Los Angeles
4-Philadelphia
5-Detroit
6-Baltimore
7 Houston
8-Cleveland

Basically, all the top 6 cities had Hawaiian service with the exception I think of PHL. I do not see any n/s service from PHL to HNL in the early OAG's on line. If someone knows differently, I'd be interested.


Correct, PHL has never had nonstop service to HNL; of your total list of 8 cities, Houston of course eventually got it, but CLE is another that's never had nonstops (regularly scheduled that is, but we're not discussing charters here).

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:11 pm
by cathay747
DELee wrote:
IAHWorldflyer wrote:
Great info here on early service to Hawaii! Some very informative posts.
For the youngsters or non-american readers wondering why Baltimore and Detroit had service, in the 1960 US Census, the largest cities were:
1-New York
2-Chicago
3-Los Angeles
4-Philadelphia
5-Detroit
6-Baltimore
7 Houston
8-Cleveland

Basically, all the top 6 cities had Hawaiian service with the exception I think of PHL. I do not see any n/s service from PHL to HNL in the early OAG's on line. If someone knows differently, I'd be interested.


Another reason Baltimore had service is BAL was the DC area's airport where larger planes could take off and land from so it served much of the greater DC area given the limits at DCA.

David


That's not correct, I'm afraid. I can't speak as to why UA got the route rights from BAL vs. IAD as I don't know when and can't find when they were awarded the rights, but IAD opened in 1962, way before the start of the route...the DC-8-62 wasn't even rolled out by Douglas until April, 1967 and the "H" (high gross weight) variant UA bought, specifically for nonstops to Hawaii from the eastern third of the country because of it's range, came a bit later than that IIRC. So it could have been run from IAD, but it wasn't as UA didn't have an aircraft with sufficient range. What you stated is true only up to Dulles' opening in 62.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:19 pm
by cathay747
PI4EVR wrote:
...but they gave me the entire back row and beyond two meals...Catering was by "Trader Vic's" and beyond Mai Tai's...
I do remember a big sign in the BAL gate area with a picture of the DC8 with the logo "Super 8 to the Aloha State."
I returned on a routing HNL-SFO-IAD all on DC-8's as well
P.S. Those were the days. I stayed at the Sheraton Surfrider Hotel beachfront on Waikiki Beach for $22 a day and rented a Datsun sedan from Tropical Rent-A-Car for $5 a day! The breakfast buffet in an oceanfront restaurant was an outrageous $10 per person, but an awesome welcome experience to HI on your first morning.


GREAT memories/story! But...what do you mean when you twice said "and beyond" as per above? Back to the memories, ah yes, catering by Trader Vic's, which was to counter upstart CO's catering by Don the Beachcomber...and yes, mai tai's, which should have come with little packages of Mauna Loa macadamia nuts, right? And FYI, "Super 8 to the Aloha State" was the ship name given to their DC-8-61 N8073U for a while (it was renamed Eric A. Johnston later)...and your flight of course was op by a -62H, funny that they kept using that title.

Those rates you paid for the hotel, car and buffet are just insane! LOL Again, those were the days...I wonder what that all would = in today's dollars.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:58 pm
by strfyr51
Flaps wrote:
I cant answer with regard to frequency but equipment would be all DC8. From the east coast, 62's, from the west coast 50/61/62. Possibly some earlier series DC8's from the west coast as well.

the DC8-54 and the -62 were still at United when I arrived in October of 1984, I almost got smoked with the reverser on the DC8-54 as I didn't really know how it worked and I was standing in the wrong area because I thought it would open one way and it opened laterally. the -62 was closer to the 737-200 so I wasn't surprised with it. Luckily I never really had to work on the -54 0r the -62 as they were all leaving the next month, and all I got to work on was the -71. with the CFM56-2's. . It was a good airplane We probies got a LOT of DC8-71 work under the guise of "Teaching us". We got a LOT of teaching from the old Timers. But it worked out because I went to the terminal after my 1st month and spent another 15 years working the terminal. the work wasn't all that hard but it was continuous as I had a foreman who threatened to fire me nearly every day on Probation and worked the 3 probies through lunch just about every day. Hell! we were scared to ASK him For a lunch break! but he passed us all through probation and then had a damn nerve to Laugh about it!!
the old Geezer!

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:14 pm
by PI4EVR
cathay747 - I did use beyond instead of "in addition to" as to food and drinks/service descriptions. Maybe too much info, but things I do still recall 49 years later :old: as distinctive to that flight. I did not like the Mai Tai and switched to the Primo beer.
The Surfrider is now part of the Sheraton/Westin brand and 5 nights for a Sat-Thur stay quoted for next month would be $339+taxes and fees per night.
I saved up for months to go as my base salary was only $505 a month so that $10 breakfast was a treat.
Another 1971 dollar comparison. I had a 1 BR apartment w/balcony in Arlington VA near the GW Parkway about 8 miles to DCA and it was a whopping $175 a month including utilities, and drove a 1969 VW Beetle w/a payment of $53, but I loved the city and my airline career that subsequently spanned 32 years.

Re: UA Route Frequency to Hawaii, Pre-747

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:34 pm
by cathay747
PI4EVR wrote:
cathay747 - I did use beyond instead of "in addition to" as to food and drinks/service descriptions. Maybe too much info, but things I do still recall 49 years later :old: as distinctive to that flight. I did not like the Mai Tai and switched to the Primo beer.
The Surfrider is now part of the Sheraton/Westin brand and 5 nights for a Sat-Thur stay quoted for next month would be $339+taxes and fees per night.
I saved up for months to go as my base salary was only $505 a month so that $10 breakfast was a treat.
Another 1971 dollar comparison. I had a 1 BR apartment w/balcony in Arlington VA near the GW Parkway about 8 miles to DCA and it was a whopping $175 a month including utilities, and drove a 1969 VW Beetle w/a payment of $53, but I loved the city and my airline career that subsequently spanned 32 years.


Ah OK, I get it. It was confusing what you meant. Primo beer is of course another memory (the brand only...I was never old enough to drink while it still existed).

LOL...when I left NoVA to move here to PHX in Oct. 2014, our 1BR at Bailey's Crossroads (you know it? Borders Arlington.) was pushing $1400/mo. and did NOT include utilities, so I know what you mean!!!