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FlyingElvii
Topic Author
Posts: 995
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:41 pm

Wow...
We knew this was coming, but still, the reality of it all is beginning to set in.

15,000 flight attendants, 11,000 customer service and gate agents, 5,500 maintenance, and 2,250 pilots. (Just guessing, this translates into around 200 fewer aircraft?)
This does not include managerial and HQ staff layoffs of around 1,500 so far.
Any ideas about how this is going to affect the SCOPE-covered Regionals?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/un ... -ntp-feeds
 
Blockplus
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:55 pm

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:45 pm

Expressjet just warned every employee.... so there’s that
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5036
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:46 pm

You can’t lay-off an employee you didn’t warn but you can warn an employee you don’t lay off. As I expected major airlines appear to be trying to keep as many pilots as possible.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8511
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:51 pm

32andBelow wrote:
You can’t lay-off an employee you didn’t warn but you can warn an employee you don’t lay off. As I expected major airlines appear to be trying to keep as many pilots as possible.


That is true, but I don't believe these are grossly inflated numbers just to scare people (employees into taking leave, Congress into more $Billion grants). If the actual numbers effective Oct 1 are notably less, then great.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5036
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:55 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
You can’t lay-off an employee you didn’t warn but you can warn an employee you don’t lay off. As I expected major airlines appear to be trying to keep as many pilots as possible.


That is true, but I don't believe these are grossly inflated numbers just to scare people (employees into taking leave, Congress into more $Billion grants). If the actual numbers effective Oct 1 are notably less, then great.

I’d be surprised if delta lays off as many pilots as they said. This looks fairly reasonable. Any airline that gives up to many pilots is going to have big challenges if there is a recovery any time in 2021.
 
DoctorVenkman
Posts: 218
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:56 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
You can’t lay-off an employee you didn’t warn but you can warn an employee you don’t lay off. As I expected major airlines appear to be trying to keep as many pilots as possible.


That is true, but I don't believe these are grossly inflated numbers just to scare people (employees into taking leave, Congress into more $Billion grants). If the actual numbers effective Oct 1 are notably less, then great.


UA has publicly stated that these are the "worst case" numbers and they hope that actual layoffs will be much less than this.
 
Varsity1
Posts: 2238
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 4:55 am

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:07 pm

32andBelow wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
You can’t lay-off an employee you didn’t warn but you can warn an employee you don’t lay off. As I expected major airlines appear to be trying to keep as many pilots as possible.


That is true, but I don't believe these are grossly inflated numbers just to scare people (employees into taking leave, Congress into more $Billion grants). If the actual numbers effective Oct 1 are notably less, then great.

I’d be surprised if delta lays off as many pilots as they said. This looks fairly reasonable. Any airline that gives up to many pilots is going to have big challenges if there is a recovery any time in 2021.



They can lay off pilots at the bottom of the lists with relatively little pain thanks to the latest displacement bid at Delta. 2500 pilots are going UNA or "unassigned" to an aircraft, and unqualified in less than 12 months.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5036
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:10 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

That is true, but I don't believe these are grossly inflated numbers just to scare people (employees into taking leave, Congress into more $Billion grants). If the actual numbers effective Oct 1 are notably less, then great.

I’d be surprised if delta lays off as many pilots as they said. This looks fairly reasonable. Any airline that gives up to many pilots is going to have big challenges if there is a recovery any time in 2021.



They can lay off pilots at the bottom of the lists with relatively little pain thanks to the latest displacement bid at Delta. 2500 pilots are going UNA or "unassigned" to an aircraft, and unqualified in less than 12 months.

well if aviation comes back to anything close to what it was in 2019 we still don’t have enough pilots. the LCCs and freight guys will gobble all these guys up
 
The777Man
Posts: 6128
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 1999 4:54 am

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:10 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Wow...
We knew this was coming, but still, the reality of it all is beginning to set in.

15,000 flight attendants, 11,000 customer service and gate agents, 5,500 maintenance, and 2,250 pilots. (Just guessing, this translates into around 200 fewer aircraft?)
This does not include managerial and HQ staff layoffs of around 1,500 so far.
Any ideas about how this is going to affect the SCOPE-covered Regionals?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/un ... -ntp-feeds


The 11 000 number is actually 5100 customer service and 5900 ramp agents....just to clarify.

The777Man
Last edited by The777Man on Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:12 pm

DL and UA are publicly making their case here for employees to take compensation. AA and WN both would like employees to take concessions as well but so far have largely kept it in house. This announcement is all part of the management versus labour chess game.

DL only has 2 unions on property but only 1 large union so they didn't need to announce as many company wide layoffs as UA has done. UA has more large unions on property that they are negotiating with.

UA like the other majors will demand large concessions. Unions and their membership will cave. Furloughs will be reduced or eliminated. If traffic doesn't pick up by next summer, there will be more concessionary demands but furloughs won't be able to be mitigated as much.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:17 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I’d be surprised if delta lays off as many pilots as they said. This looks fairly reasonable. Any airline that gives up to many pilots is going to have big challenges if there is a recovery any time in 2021.



They can lay off pilots at the bottom of the lists with relatively little pain thanks to the latest displacement bid at Delta. 2500 pilots are going UNA or "unassigned" to an aircraft, and unqualified in less than 12 months.

well if aviation comes back to anything close to what it was in 2019 we still don’t have enough pilots. the LCCs and freight guys will gobble all these guys up


I seriously doubt many if anyone furloughed by the majors would go to NK, F9, or G4 and then turn down a recall to UA, AA, DL, WN. The difference in pay and work rules is too large for most pilots to turn down a recall. Some might go to FX and 5X but the night flying lifestyle is not for everyone so that will limit how many go the freight route.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5470
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:22 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
I’d be surprised if delta lays off as many pilots as they said. This looks fairly reasonable. Any airline that gives up to many pilots is going to have big challenges if there is a recovery any time in 2021.



They can lay off pilots at the bottom of the lists with relatively little pain thanks to the latest displacement bid at Delta. 2500 pilots are going UNA or "unassigned" to an aircraft, and unqualified in less than 12 months.

well if aviation comes back to anything close to what it was in 2019 we still don’t have enough pilots. the LCCs and freight guys will gobble all these guys up


Clearly, big 4 are not expecting demand, especially the high yielding business and LH international demand, to come back to 2019 anytime soon. This type of downturn is always going to favor the lower cost guys a lot more.

Whether the pilots end up getting furloughed or leave through early outs and extended time offs, the airlines all have an idea of how many pilots they need and will stick to that.

Based on what UA has been doing, I'd be surprised if they will be even runing a 70% schedule next summer. I'm thinking 60 to 65% is more likely at this point.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 295
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:24 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:


They can lay off pilots at the bottom of the lists with relatively little pain thanks to the latest displacement bid at Delta. 2500 pilots are going UNA or "unassigned" to an aircraft, and unqualified in less than 12 months.

well if aviation comes back to anything close to what it was in 2019 we still don’t have enough pilots. the LCCs and freight guys will gobble all these guys up


I seriously doubt many if anyone furloughed by the majors would go to NK, F9, or G4 and then turn down a recall to UA, AA, DL, WN. The difference in pay and work rules is too large for most pilots to turn down a recall. Some might go to FX and 5X but the night flying lifestyle is not for everyone so that will limit how many go the freight route.

Contract and pay at LCCs is far better than it was last downturn. Plenty went to JetBlue from USAirways and never went back. I’ve heard various stats that between 10-30% of furloughees never take recall. Plenty might find a new gig that they enjoy, maybe based closer to home, etc.

Does United have an early out program for pilots like America, Delta, Southwest, for example?
 
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janders
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Re: United Airlines sends WARN ACT Layoff Notices to 36,000

Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:24 pm

Todays news is posted and being discussed in two threads already.

United specific >>> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1437915

Broader COVID fall out >>> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1448423

Please continue as appropriate in above threads.
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle

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