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Ishrion
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Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:29 am

In order to boost tourism in the country, Garuda Indonesia is working with the Tourism Ministry to launch direct flights from Denpasar/Bali to Los Angeles, San Francisco, Paris, Delhi, and Mumbai.

“Garuda and the Tourism Ministry have agreed that the only way to boost foreign tourist visits is by introducing direct flights to Denpasar. Hopefully, we can make it through this crisis and start direct flights from countries that have large spending capabilities.”


https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/202 ... urism.html

The reasoning for launching even if they face losses, taking Paris as an example:

"Because if a Parisian, a Frenchman spends US$10,000 on his vacation in Bali, there is no problem if Garuda loses US$500 per passenger, because we can get US$10,500 in this country."


https://www.cnbcindonesia.com/market/20 ... ncis-india

I believe Garuda was supposed to do CGK-NRT-LAX a few years ago but it never launched due to Japan not favoring them carrying passengers on NRT-LAX or something?

Either way, great to see new routes, and finally a link between Indonesia and the United States.
Last edited by Ishrion on Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TheEuphorian
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:35 am

Does DPS even need TPAC flights? since even larger Southeast Asian cities like CGK, KUL or even BKK (which has much more TPAC demand than DPS or even CGK) can't even sustain TPAC demand due to all the cheap Chinese airlines with the 737-800 fleets dumping capacity onto Southeast Asia.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:46 am

TheEuphorian wrote:
Does DPS even need TPAC flights? since even larger Southeast Asian cities like CGK, KUL or even BKK (which has much more TPAC demand than DPS or even CGK) can't even sustain TPAC demand due to all the cheap Chinese airlines with the 737-800 fleets dumping capacity onto Southeast Asia.

One has to admit that fares are already cheap before any Chinese airlines come in and given the stage length only SIN can sustain a USA flight for a lengthy period of time throughout the SEA region (I'm excluding Philippines in this regard).

We've also heard numerous times that LHR is a loss leader and if that can't stop them from adding PAR, well, good luck.

Michael
 
deltairlines
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:59 am

I'll preface this by saying Bali is probably my favorite place to vacation in the world.

And yes, it's a pain to get to from the United States - when I went on my last trip, I ended up with overnights in PVG and BKK along the way (not an issue since I enjoy both those cities, but still).

That being said, the only other Americans I saw there were a wedding party that had some serious cash (they had the ceremony on the beach at the St. Regis where I was staying at the time).

A lot of Americans will simply choose Hawaii if they're on the west coast instead of going all the way to Bali. You still get a good bit of what Bali has to offer in Hawaii, with the mountains, the beach, etc. Yeah, it's a bit more expensive (one lunch I had on the beach in Bali cost me $7 for what would have easily been $35 in the States) but the distance will turn people off. A ~8500mi flight (especially in Y) for vacation doesn't seem to entice me.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:09 am

I went to Bali in March 2019 and I have to say I was sorrily disappointed. It honestly felt like Australia's version of Cancun, and I wasn't even staying near the major "party" centers of the island. I happened to tie the trip to DPS with a visit to friends in HKG, but I would have been extremely let down if I flew straight to the DPS just for what they have to offer. Don't get me wrong, it was beautiful, but I feel like today's media hypes it up so much as a destination. There are other simply other places in Asia that are nicer (and closer!) IMO...not to mention Hawaii and the Caribbean...

Granted if I had 30,000 dollars to blow on a vacation and stay in a resort that was $2000 a night I might have a different perspective.

But I fail to see how they would make LAX/SFO work. The average American doesn't even know that Bali is in Indonesia.
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hpff
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:12 am

USAirALB wrote:
The average American doesn't even know that Bali is in Indonesia.


To be fair, I've been told the Australian government accepts "Bali" as a country on your incoming customs card.
 
x1234
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:13 am

Now that DL & KE have joint schedules, DPS/Bali is easier to get to from DL gateways in the US to ICN or even MU via PVG. GA does fly to Bali from NRT but they should get slots at HND. Also HKG has the most flights to DPS from an airport that serves the US directly. Also price dumping from the CN3 to the ME3.
 
flyfresno
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:14 am

Bali is starting to get really popular with Americans...it's a super long flight, but if going for a whole week, it's probably worth it. I think it could become just as popular with American tourists as, say, New Zealand, with the right development.
 
onwFan
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:16 am

There you go, GA’s new plan to burn some money! I cannot understand why they don’t just do something like codeshare with KE/DL to the US? There are going to be a lot of empty seats on all currently running TPAC flights for the next few years... Notably they also have an investor/partner in NH, whose TPAC network I am sure they cannot make use of for obvious reasons.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:20 am

My only trip to DPS was from GUM (DC-10-10). When did Air Mike stop flying that?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
tphuang
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:21 am

This seems to be quite risky.

Here is something to think about. When looking up flights to Thailand, you can always find cheap options via CN3.

To fly to DPS, CN3 don't offer as convenient options. Bali isn't as easy to get to from Europe or Asia. The flight options to BKK or HKT is much greater than DPS. Maybe if there are direct flights, there will be more demand. I fail to see the need for both SFO and LAX though.
 
737max8
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:46 am

Everyone in the US will want to go to Bali for their instagram selfies. I don't think it was that hard to get to before if you just one stop somewhere major like HKG...but I can see these flights doing well and I for one might take it.
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TMccrury
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:06 am

I would gladly fly Garuda from LAX/SFO to DPS on my way to CGK. I've flown GA in the past coupe of years a few times and the flight were great. The crew was superb. I've flown A330's and 777's with them. The question is where would the flights stop on the way to/from LAX/SFO or is it manageable non-stop? GCMap has DPS-LAX at 8633 and DPS-SFO at 8355 miles. A 777-200LR can do the SFO portion not sure about the LAX portion.
 
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:15 am

737max8 wrote:
but I can see these flights doing well

Based on what, the fact that only 2 S.E.Asian airlines have been able to make N.America work?

BKK is several orders of magnitude more popular/recognized/patronized as a tourist destination to+from the Americas, and even it couldn't sustain (not only) a nonstop, but even 1stops by any of the flag carriers on either side who tried it.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
NW
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:51 am

Are these flights truly planned to be "direct" or non-stop? If direct, where will they stop?
 
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jsnww81
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:57 am

USAirALB wrote:
I went to Bali in March 2019 and I have to say I was sorrily disappointed. It honestly felt like Australia's version of Cancun, and I wasn't even staying near the major "party" centers of the island. I happened to tie the trip to DPS with a visit to friends in HKG, but I would have been extremely let down if I flew straight to the DPS just for what they have to offer. Don't get me wrong, it was beautiful, but I feel like today's media hypes it up so much as a destination. There are other simply other places in Asia that are nicer (and closer!) IMO...not to mention Hawaii and the Caribbean...

Granted if I had 30,000 dollars to blow on a vacation and stay in a resort that was $2000 a night I might have a different perspective.

But I fail to see how they would make LAX/SFO work. The average American doesn't even know that Bali is in Indonesia.


Agree 100%. I went to Bali several years ago with extremely high expectations and it disappointed on almost every dimension. Dense traffic, shockingly long travel times between major tourist centers, throngs of visitors. To be sure, there are some serene corners and plenty of natural beauty, but there's also definitely more haphazard development, roaring vehicle traffic and general chaos than you'd expect to find.

I understand the appeal for Australians, for whom Bali is just 5-6 hours away - and on top of that it's often a cheaper all-in destination than domestic beach spots like the Gold Coast (which has the unfortunate effect of drawing boozing bogans in large numbers...) At 18-20 hours flying time and with multiple connections involved, the only Americans and Canadians visiting Bali are the ones who REALLY want to go to Bali. Most of that already-very-small number will probably visit once in their lives, check the box, and be done.
 
paulduwon
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:01 am

I remember reading an article about their attempt to start CGK-NRT-LAX years ago.

https://onemileatatime.com/garuda-lax/

Not sure what happened, but if they are still serious about trying to get back to the US, I cannot see direct LAX/SFO-DPS working out.
Maybe if they try for fifth freedom flights, then I see some hope. I can see ICN working better for them though than NRT.
 
Antarius
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:15 am

deltairlines wrote:
I'll preface this by saying Bali is probably my favorite place to vacation in the world.

And yes, it's a pain to get to from the United States - when I went on my last trip, I ended up with overnights in PVG and BKK along the way (not an issue since I enjoy both those cities, but still).

That being said, the only other Americans I saw there were a wedding party that had some serious cash (they had the ceremony on the beach at the St. Regis where I was staying at the time).

A lot of Americans will simply choose Hawaii if they're on the west coast instead of going all the way to Bali. You still get a good bit of what Bali has to offer in Hawaii, with the mountains, the beach, etc. Yeah, it's a bit more expensive (one lunch I had on the beach in Bali cost me $7 for what would have easily been $35 in the States) but the distance will turn people off. A ~8500mi flight (especially in Y) for vacation doesn't seem to entice me.


DPS isn't that hard, IMO. one stop through HKG is my preference and its pretty seamless.

I don't really understand the allure of Bali or Hawaii. Why fly all the way there from the continental US when Mexico is right there.
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mercure1
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:22 am

Seems like perfect means to lose lots of money chasing tourist on longhaul routes.
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Antarius
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:26 am

737max8 wrote:
Everyone in the US will want to go to Bali for their instagram selfies. I don't think it was that hard to get to before if you just one stop somewhere major like HKG...but I can see these flights doing well and I for one might take it.


Bali has always been easy to get to and frequently, quite cheap. I'm not sure how these flights would do well though - the front isn't going to be filled with business travelers shelling out 10 grand a seat.

They will be full, but they will lose a lot of money. But hey, Indonesia can whip it out and wave it to the neighbors.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
CALMSP
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:49 am

nothing like losing a cool million+ per flight!!!
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:53 am

TMccrury wrote:
The question is where would the flights stop on the way to/from LAX/SFO or is it manageable non-stop? GCMap has DPS-LAX at 8633 and DPS-SFO at 8355 miles.

Other than cabotage and the lack of sustainable demand, what else is preventing GA from doing at least a tech stop in HNL on the way to/from DPS :?:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=DPS-HNL-LA ... =wls&DU=nm
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SCFlyer
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:14 am

Non-stop flights from DPS to LAX/SFO won't work. Low/Junk/Tourist (and VFR) Yields with minimal Business demand. Pretty much the same reasons why BKK-USA non-stops didn't work despite being operated by a government owned carrier.

Although there's not likely be such an aircraft for the foreseeable future, if there had been an aircraft that could cram it in LCC style with LCC style service to suit the low yielding/tourist nature of the DPS market, it may suit such a market.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:40 am

Guys this is just a fluff piece from GA PR to keep Bali tourism government officials happy- the possibility of any of these routes being reinstated/inaugurated is almost zero. GA came within months of starting LAX about 2 years ago and it never happened- and those were in the good times. As for BOM- well they recently pulled out.

LAX was served with DC-10 & MD-11 aircraft in the past: CGK-DPS-Biak-HNL-LAX. Biak tech stop was eliminated with the MD-11's.
 
Toinou
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:03 am

Even though I don't think this will happen, I think the reasoning behind it is not uninteresting.
You can consider an airline as a business that should pay for itself or you can consider it a public service that is necessary for a wholes economical systems to exist (in this case, tourism) and in this case you just need the whole system to be profitable (which is obviously much more complicate to assess).
You could compare this reasoning to a winter resort: they need the ski areas installation to be functioning for all other businesses to be able to work, so it may be interesting to keep it in function even if it's not profitable per se.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:37 am

eta unknown wrote:
LAX was served with DC-10 & MD-11 aircraft in the past: CGK-DPS-Biak-HNL-LAX. Biak tech stop was eliminated with the MD-11's.

Shows how big Indonesia is — tech stop Biak is in the country of origin
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VSMUT
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:47 am

jsnww81 wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
I went to Bali in March 2019 and I have to say I was sorrily disappointed. It honestly felt like Australia's version of Cancun, and I wasn't even staying near the major "party" centers of the island. I happened to tie the trip to DPS with a visit to friends in HKG, but I would have been extremely let down if I flew straight to the DPS just for what they have to offer. Don't get me wrong, it was beautiful, but I feel like today's media hypes it up so much as a destination. There are other simply other places in Asia that are nicer (and closer!) IMO...not to mention Hawaii and the Caribbean...

Granted if I had 30,000 dollars to blow on a vacation and stay in a resort that was $2000 a night I might have a different perspective.

But I fail to see how they would make LAX/SFO work. The average American doesn't even know that Bali is in Indonesia.


Agree 100%. I went to Bali several years ago with extremely high expectations and it disappointed on almost every dimension. Dense traffic, shockingly long travel times between major tourist centers, throngs of visitors. To be sure, there are some serene corners and plenty of natural beauty, but there's also definitely more haphazard development, roaring vehicle traffic and general chaos than you'd expect to find.

I understand the appeal for Australians, for whom Bali is just 5-6 hours away - and on top of that it's often a cheaper all-in destination than domestic beach spots like the Gold Coast (which has the unfortunate effect of drawing boozing bogans in large numbers...) At 18-20 hours flying time and with multiple connections involved, the only Americans and Canadians visiting Bali are the ones who REALLY want to go to Bali. Most of that already-very-small number will probably visit once in their lives, check the box, and be done.


I've got the same feeling about the place. It takes several days to get there and just doesn't live up to the hype. There are annoying street salesmen everywhere you go, the beaches are only so and so, I've had better food other places in Asia. It's like the Canary islands or Balearics in South Asia (Cancun or Hawaii for the Americans). Sure it was nice, but not worth several days travel (with associated jet-lag) and thousands of euros worth of tickets.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:43 am

Time to build a new denpasar airport.... well they are considering to build new one already
 
n757kw
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:22 am

Nothing worse for a nice location than to be the place everyone wants to go. There is a lot more to Indonesia than Bali. For better or worse getting to those places is not always easy. Limited flights and not the best infrastructure. Also, the 2-3 days to get to Indonesia is a real pain from the US.

I have spent quite a bit of time in Indonesia, almost all of it in Sumatra. One of the the things I liked about traveling in Sumatra was the lack of crowds and not many tourists. I understand the draw of Bali, I have not been yet been except to change planes in Denpasar. There are places in Indonesia that are just as nice as Bali without the crowds and the expense. How long those places stay that way is another story. Last year I went to Belitong which was a very nice small island. However, it has been found by the Chinese and is becoming more developed and crowded.

If I was Garuda, I would figure out a few good transit cities, time my flights to match with a number of carriers to bring the passengers to Indonesia, not just Bali. Not sure even if you lose money on the non-stop flight, you will make it back in tourist dollars at destination. But, what do I know. Many things in Indonesia boggle the mind.

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melpax
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:41 am

hpff wrote:
USAirALB wrote:
The average American doesn't even know that Bali is in Indonesia.


To be fair, I've been told the Australian government accepts "Bali" as a country on your incoming customs card.


A good number of Aussies visiting Bali think that Bali is it's own country, and don't think of it as being part of Indonesia. As others have said, it's Australia's Cancun, while Fiji/Vanuatu/New Caledonia are the Aussie Bahamas.

Sounds like the Indonesians have realised that us Aussies won't be able to travel to Bali for the next couple of years at least, so are scouting for new markets....

From what's been reported, sounds like the planned NZ/South Pacific travel bubble has been put off until at least early/mid 2021, with Melbourne having a lockdown re-imposed. So Australian travel to Bali will probably have to wait until late 2021-22 at least...
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freakyrat
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:34 am

USAirALB wrote:
I went to Bali in March 2019 and I have to say I was sorrily disappointed. It honestly felt like Australia's version of Cancun, and I wasn't even staying near the major "party" centers of the island. I happened to tie the trip to DPS with a visit to friends in HKG, but I would have been extremely let down if I flew straight to the DPS just for what they have to offer. Don't get me wrong, it was beautiful, but I feel like today's media hypes it up so much as a destination. There are other simply other places in Asia that are nicer (and closer!) IMO...not to mention Hawaii and the Caribbean...

Granted if I had 30,000 dollars to blow on a vacation and stay in a resort that was $2000 a night I might have a different perspective.

But I fail to see how they would make LAX/SFO work. The average American doesn't even know that Bali is in Indonesia.


I was there in 1991 for a Skydiving event. Bali was OK but I stayed in Lombok and it was much quieter and the winds blew in off the water at night and kept the mosquitos away. Got to take a tour of the island for a day and observed the culture.
 
nicode
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:48 am

Ishrion wrote:
"Because if a Parisian, a Frenchman spends US$10,000 on his vacation in Bali, there is no problem if Garuda loses US$500 per passenger, because we can get US$10,500 in this country."[/quote.

I live in Paris and I can tell you anyone won't spend US$10,000 for a vacation !
 
spud757
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:59 am

tphuang wrote:
This seems to be quite risky.

Here is something to think about. When looking up flights to Thailand, you can always find cheap options via CN3.

To fly to DPS, CN3 don't offer as convenient options. Bali isn't as easy to get to from Europe or Asia. The flight options to BKK or HKT is much greater than DPS. Maybe if there are direct flights, there will be more demand. I fail to see the need for both SFO and LAX though.


When you say “Bali isn't as easy to get to from Europe or Asia”, that’s not strictly correct. Putting aside current COVID-19 traffic reductions, from Manchester (UK) I can get to Bali with SQ, CX, QR (I think EK, too) via 1 stop at their respective home hubs. Add in London market with that from MAN plus BA (via HKG), TG (via BKK), MH (via KUL), BR (via BKK) plus the Chinese carriers. The ME3 + ST/*A carriers likely replicate this across large parts of Europe via DOH, DXB, BKK, SIN, etc.

Easy to get to? yes, with 1-stop. Long journey worth it? Depends. Been to Bali 3 times - love it - as part of SE Asia trips to BKK/SIN, KUL, HKG. However, there are just as nice places closer with direct or 1-stop flights, so maybe it’s that which Bali tourism needs to work on; what is the difference that’ll draw people in?
 
TMccrury
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:06 am

Devilfish wrote:
TMccrury wrote:
The question is where would the flights stop on the way to/from LAX/SFO or is it manageable non-stop? GCMap has DPS-LAX at 8633 and DPS-SFO at 8355 miles.

Other than cabotage and the lack of sustainable demand, what else is preventing GA from doing at least a tech stop in HNL on the way to/from DPS :?:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=DPS-HNL-LA ... =wls&DU=nm


I was thinking a tech stop in HNL. It maybe possible they could do what SQ done many years ago to get to LAX/SFO with a tech stop in HNL. Passengers could disembark in HNL and then rejoin later to finish the journey. However, a person couldn't purchase a ticket on SQ for only the HNL-LAX/SFO segments or vice versa. Doing the tech stop makes it reachable with at least the 777's they have. Not sure about an A330, I don't remember exactly what their range is.
 
jfk777
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:13 am

The only way this might work is with 787-9, if you could get enough people to fly Business Class. Doubtful though. Any flight to the USA would need a stop in HNL. Garuda would be better trying to get Koreans and Japanese there. With Singapore Airlines nearby they do a good job getting tourists to Bali. This sounds like another Garuda dream.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:21 pm

Toinou wrote:
Even though I don't think this will happen, I think the reasoning behind it is not uninteresting.
You can consider an airline as a business that should pay for itself or you can consider it a public service that is necessary for a wholes economical systems to exist (in this case, tourism) and in this case you just need the whole system to be profitable (which is obviously much more complicate to assess).
You could compare this reasoning to a winter resort: they need the ski areas installation to be functioning for all other businesses to be able to work, so it may be interesting to keep it in function even if it's not profitable per se.


Yes, you can, but then how do you get the people who benefit economically to pay for it (and specifically, pay for it more than the people who don't directly benefit from it)? You can't do it with VAT or income taxes; it's the problem of discerning & taxing those who benefit. It's not as if you can have higher hotel room taxes for long-haul-arriving guests. If you can't make that differentiation and tax it you're just taxing everyone to make construction companies and hotel owners wealthy. Sochi Olympics, anyone? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -5-reasons
 
Toinou
Posts: 278
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:51 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Toinou wrote:
Even though I don't think this will happen, I think the reasoning behind it is not uninteresting.
You can consider an airline as a business that should pay for itself or you can consider it a public service that is necessary for a wholes economical systems to exist (in this case, tourism) and in this case you just need the whole system to be profitable (which is obviously much more complicate to assess).
You could compare this reasoning to a winter resort: they need the ski areas installation to be functioning for all other businesses to be able to work, so it may be interesting to keep it in function even if it's not profitable per se.


Yes, you can, but then how do you get the people who benefit economically to pay for it (and specifically, pay for it more than the people who don't directly benefit from it)? You can't do it with VAT or income taxes; it's the problem of discerning & taxing those who benefit. It's not as if you can have higher hotel room taxes for long-haul-arriving guests. If you can't make that differentiation and tax it you're just taxing everyone to make construction companies and hotel owners wealthy. Sochi Olympics, anyone? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -5-reasons

I totally agree on that issue. (Even though most policies benefits not equally to everybody.) As it's benefiting more to companies than to individuals, I guess corporate tax could be a source. You could even imagine to have a different level of corporate tax (or a different tax) for companies working in tourism.
In this case, I guess some sort of tourist tax could be an option as it would apply directly to those who benefit the most. If it finances different touristic infrastructures (not just the airline), it's not such a problem if it's not targeted at long-haul travelers. (BTW, you say you can't have a higher tax for long-haul travelers. Maybe you can, it depends of local laws.)
I am not saying there is a perfect solution, only that sometimes the benefit of keeping a vital infrastructure working may be much larger that what it costs.

But just to be clear: I don't think Bali would really need this. I just think that the reasoning is somewhat interesting.
 
Galwayman
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:07 pm

nicode wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
"Because if a Parisian, a Frenchman spends US$10,000 on his vacation in Bali, there is no problem if Garuda loses US$500 per passenger, because we can get US$10,500 in this country."[/quote.

I live in Paris and I can tell you anyone won't spend US$10,000 for a vacation !


Haha so true ... people go to Bali to spend $2000 for 3 weeks and if the place is drowned with Americans overspending on their 5 day vacations , the repeat business will soon go elsewhere .

Theres no need for these new flights, QR and EK offer rock bottom fares from Europe and the US already
 
hiflyeras
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:39 pm

Had a lovely vacation on Bali in 1988...thankfully before it was overrun by Aussies (sorry to focus on you, mates) and tourists. I've always wanted to go back but from everything I've read it does not sound at all like the same place. My memory is empty two-lane roads and having the temples and sights to myself. I'm curious to go back and see it again as it's beautiful but might just leave well alone. Bali isn't about the beaches...go somewhere else for those. It's about the culture and the gracious people. I hope they haven't been ruined as well.

I think LAX and SFO are terribly overambitious. 3x weekly from LAX would suffice.
 
hohd
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:57 pm

GA pulled out from BOM, but there was another airline flying from MAA to Indonesia, not sure which. I think they should give DEL a try, it could work, in addition to tourist connections, there is the religious aspect.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:02 pm

TMccrury wrote:
Not sure about an A330, I don't remember exactly what their range is.

PR regularly fly their A330ceo MNL-HNL-MNL with high load factors. Perhaps GA's newly delivered A339s could hurdle the extra 819 nm difference to DPS with fewer passengers or a lighter load :?:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=HNL-DPS%2FMNL&MS=wls&DU=nm


jfk777 wrote:
Any flight to the USA would need a stop in HNL. Garuda would be better trying to get Koreans and Japanese there.

Just for clarity, does the US/Indonesia bilateral allow this...or did you mean stop at either Japan or Korea?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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CPS001
Posts: 246
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:46 pm

hohd wrote:
GA pulled out from BOM, but there was another airline flying from MAA to Indonesia, not sure which. I think they should give DEL a try, it could work, in addition to tourist connections, there is the religious aspect.


Batik flew MAA to both KNO and DPS, switched DPS to CGK just before Covid.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4760
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:53 pm

Sounds like a really good way to burn thru large piles of cash with these very long flights. Fares will have to be low. Chances of this working seem very low
 
behramjee
Posts: 5081
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:23 pm

Just to give everyone commenting here on this thread an idea of the p2p market demand in 2019 (full year round trip pax) on the segments being identified:

To/from DPS

BOM 128,000
DEL 112,000
CDG 137,000
LAX 74,000
SFO 41,000

Operating DPS-USA + CDG nonstop would indeed burn a lot of cash and also note that unlike all other SE Asian leisure markets, DPS peak season is June-Sep and not Nov-Jan due to the latter part being its rainy season.

Nonstops to BOM/DEL will indeed perform well from a seat factor perspective as Indonesia has marketed very well that DPS is predominantly a Hindu majority island which has caught on a lot with Indian pax especially the hardcore vegetarians. Yes India will still lose money but not as much as CDG/USA would.

Unfortunately for both BOM and DEL, GA needs to deploy a wide body since the flying time would be 7 hours 25 minutes approximately and they dont have A321Neos with 1ACT available in their fleet to do this. In order to save costs in the post-Corona environment for the next year, if they are very serious it would be best operating a 4 weekly triangular DPS-DEL-BOM-DPS using an A333 rather than 3 weekly dedicated DPS-DEL-DPS + DPS-BOM-DPS each respectively as they would save $$$ by operating in total 2 less wide body services.

LAX/SFO should be served as a JV with KE via ICN.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3325
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:25 pm

behramjee wrote:
Just to give everyone commenting here on this thread an idea of the p2p market demand in 2019 (full year round trip pax) on the segments being identified:

To/from DPS

BOM 128,000
DEL 112,000
CDG 137,000
LAX 74,000
SFO 41,000


Yikes. It's never good when the longest routes are the smallest markets...

Even if the market were larger (perhaps through market stimulation), GA just doesn't have the right aircraft for the SFO and LAX routes. I think the 789 could practically make both routes (QF's PER-LHR is longer), but the longest range jets GA has are 339s and 77Ws. Once you add a stop somewhere, there's almost no point to offering these routes as there's already one-stop competition on carriers that U.S. fliers are more familiar with.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
Toinou
Posts: 278
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:08 am

behramjee wrote:
Operating DPS-USA + CDG nonstop would indeed burn a lot of cash and also note that unlike all other SE Asian leisure markets, DPS peak season is June-Sep and not Nov-Jan due to the latter part being its rainy season.

I did not know that. It may explain a bit of the attraction of Bali for people from northern hemisphere, especially Europe, as the largest vacation period (and the longest school holidays, which is relevant for family travelers) is in (northern) summer.
 
hohd
Posts: 924
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Re: Garuda Indonesia Plans DPS-LAX/SFO/PAR/BOM/DEL

Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:27 pm

GA had a one stop flight via BKK to BOM, but discontinued, probably it was not marketed very well. I used it for BKK-BOM sector and the fares were quite high, but had to choose this flight due to good flight timings. I think one stop via a city outside India wont work, best is to do the triangular route or separate 3 times a week to DEL and BOM.

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