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usflyer msp
Posts: 3892
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:16 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
flyby519 wrote:

AS can’t compete with B6 t-con product, and B6 can’t compete on short haul west coast against AS. Both carriers need to seize this chance to add bulk to their network offerings in the quickest and most economic way possible.


I agree, AS needs to GIVE IT UP when it comes to trans cons. They have zero to no scope protection, they should take advantage of that and become a glorified regional to feed AA international and B6 trans continental.


oh brother... here we go again. AS flies transcons to a substantial number of markets that B6 doesn't, and likely wouldn't operate. On transcons operated using the B6 core A320's, which are a majority of their transcons, B6 isn't providing a product that is better than any other airline. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. Just because you don't like AS doesn't mean they should fold up a major part of their operation and become a small regional airline operating up and down the west coast only. :roll:


I concur. Plus they already have AA for the premium transcons so what exactly is B6 offering them? Seems like most the benefit would be in one direction.
 
stevemat11
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:20 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:13 pm

Will the international arrivals park at the gates they currently use in T5? Is there a working FIS in T5 LAX?
 
tphuang
Posts: 5471
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Thu Oct 08, 2020 10:27 pm

On the tcon front, AS product is quite good for the non-premium TCON market. Having an aircraft with domestic FC cabin instead of lie flat bed is actually a good way to go for markets like BOS-SEA or LAX-TPA where lie flat might be too much. I'd love to see B6 try something like 2 rows of domestic FC on A220-300, but it doesn't look like they will do that.

I concur. Plus they already have AA for the premium transcons so what exactly is B6 offering them? Seems like most the benefit would be in one direction.

consistent premium product to EWR, FLL, PBI, BOS. And transcon to places AA is unlikely to serve post pandemic because those routes are long and thin and probably only viable with A220-300. Also, large presence at JFK/EWR/BOS that AS flights can connect to.

I do think the need for AS and B6 partnership have gone down now that they have both individually partnered up with AA.

mooseofspruce wrote:
Speaking purely for myself, I hope they add more than the current 2-daily morning/evening flights between SFO/LAX. With enough mental gymnastics/reaching it'd be like VX never left after AS turned SFO/LAX into mostly E175s, with B6's restyled A320s going up and down. Although they'd need to actually put restyled A320s onto the route because whenever I've checked previously, the seat map is for a pre-styled A320.


They will definitely do more than 2x daily between LAX-SFO once demand comes back a little more. I see A220-300 as the future workhorse up and down west coast for them.

The pandemic has opened up real estate for them to try the old VX playbook of focusing on transcon and leisure market out of LAX/SFO while offering some flights along the west coast business markets. A220-300 has vastly better economics than the A319 and A320 that VX was using on those 1 to 4 hour flights out of LAX/SFO. And mint is a far better product for premium transcon markets. They have a lot of projects going on right now, but I think they will add more stuff out of SFO and LAS. The former would make sense as a secondary focus city on the west coast and the latter would be a small focus city/large out station.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Thu Oct 08, 2020 11:35 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
flyby519 wrote:

AS can’t compete with B6 t-con product, and B6 can’t compete on short haul west coast against AS. Both carriers need to seize this chance to add bulk to their network offerings in the quickest and most economic way possible.


I agree, AS needs to GIVE IT UP when it comes to trans cons. They have zero to no scope protection, they should take advantage of that and become a glorified regional to feed AA international and B6 trans continental.


oh brother... here we go again. AS flies transcons to a substantial number of markets that B6 doesn't, and likely wouldn't operate. On transcons operated using the B6 core A320's, which are a majority of their transcons, B6 isn't providing a product that is better than any other airline. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. Just because you don't like AS doesn't mean they should fold up a major part of their operation and become a small regional airline operating up and down the west coast only. :roll:


As a frequent flier I beg to differ. DL and B6 have by far the best transcon product offering. AS Would be in there with UA and AA for me. Standard nothing to write home about. Had they adopted more of the VX experience and kept the routes and frequencies AS would have been a force to reckon with. They botched that transaction and basically walked away the same Pre merger.
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1734
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:03 am

nine4nine wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:

I agree, AS needs to GIVE IT UP when it comes to trans cons. They have zero to no scope protection, they should take advantage of that and become a glorified regional to feed AA international and B6 trans continental.


oh brother... here we go again. AS flies transcons to a substantial number of markets that B6 doesn't, and likely wouldn't operate. On transcons operated using the B6 core A320's, which are a majority of their transcons, B6 isn't providing a product that is better than any other airline. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. Just because you don't like AS doesn't mean they should fold up a major part of their operation and become a small regional airline operating up and down the west coast only. :roll:


As a frequent flier I beg to differ. DL and B6 have by far the best transcon product offering. AS Would be in there with UA and AA for me. Standard nothing to write home about. Had they adopted more of the VX experience and kept the routes and frequencies AS would have been a force to reckon with. They botched that transaction and basically walked away the same Pre merger.


Virgins model didn't work. It wasn't working. Sticking with a money losing model would have only been a recipe for disaster. As a consumer, I have no doubt that you loved paying rock bottom fares for a premium product, but it wasn't working for Virgin. Everyone, frequent fliers and otherwise, have an opinion about which airline they prefer. You prefer DL and B6, that's your opinion. Just as an aside, AS IS a force to be reckoned with. This theme here that, because AS didn't jump into the premium lie flat seat race causes them harm is not based in any kind of reality.
 
User avatar
Rajahdhani
Posts: 610
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:13 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:40 am

ASFlyer wrote:
nine4nine wrote:
ASFlyer wrote:

oh brother... here we go again. AS flies transcons to a substantial number of markets that B6 doesn't, and likely wouldn't operate. On transcons operated using the B6 core A320's, which are a majority of their transcons, B6 isn't providing a product that is better than any other airline. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. Just because you don't like AS doesn't mean they should fold up a major part of their operation and become a small regional airline operating up and down the west coast only. :roll:


As a frequent flier I beg to differ. DL and B6 have by far the best transcon product offering. AS Would be in there with UA and AA for me. Standard nothing to write home about. Had they adopted more of the VX experience and kept the routes and frequencies AS would have been a force to reckon with. They botched that transaction and basically walked away the same Pre merger.


Virgins model didn't work. It wasn't working. Sticking with a money losing model would have only been a recipe for disaster. As a consumer, I have no doubt that you loved paying rock bottom fares for a premium product, but it wasn't working for Virgin. Everyone, frequent fliers and otherwise, have an opinion about which airline they prefer. You prefer DL and B6, that's your opinion. Just as an aside, AS IS a force to be reckoned with. This theme here that, because AS didn't jump into the premium lie flat seat race causes them harm is not based in any kind of reality.


...and to add - I think that nine4nine also kinda missed the point above. It's not just the premium trans-con market that AS has to work on - and in many of those markets, where AS will be competing against DL, or UA - they will be offering many of the same services at a lower cost. Removing the premium trans-con flying and there is alot to still get - and none outside of that get the premium products.

Backing to the topic, though - the same applies to B6 here as well. They are not needing to put that same premium experience on every LAX-based trans-con flight/destination. An expansion of their LAX services is not necessarily (and hopefully not just) going to equate to an expansion of their premium services.
 
n7371f
Posts: 1851
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Fri Oct 09, 2020 4:24 am

This is about JetBlue and LAX. And having seen a couple of market polling results in last few years, I will confidently say that JetBlue has a wider and more Q score in the LA/SoCal area than Alaska does. And when Virgin America was around, their Q score was higher than AS's as well.

Now if you want to go to SEA and PDX, AS could come out tomorrow and support a Trump re-election and they'd still be the most preferred airline in those markets. OK...maybe an exaggeration.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1734
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:32 am

n7371f wrote:
This is about JetBlue and LAX. And having seen a couple of market polling results in last few years, I will confidently say that JetBlue has a wider and more Q score in the LA/SoCal area than Alaska does. And when Virgin America was around, their Q score was higher than AS's as well.

Now if you want to go to SEA and PDX, AS could come out tomorrow and support a Trump re-election and they'd still be the most preferred airline in those markets. OK...maybe an exaggeration.


a lot of good that Q score did Virgin. B6 is a really nice airline and VX was a nice airline. Cheap fares and low costs will win the day every time.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5471
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:20 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
n7371f wrote:
This is about JetBlue and LAX. And having seen a couple of market polling results in last few years, I will confidently say that JetBlue has a wider and more Q score in the LA/SoCal area than Alaska does. And when Virgin America was around, their Q score was higher than AS's as well.

Now if you want to go to SEA and PDX, AS could come out tomorrow and support a Trump re-election and they'd still be the most preferred airline in those markets. OK...maybe an exaggeration.


a lot of good that Q score did Virgin. B6 is a really nice airline and VX was a nice airline. Cheap fares and low costs will win the day every time.


VX did something well, but it had really large problems too. On the revenue side, it simply was not large enough or recognized enough to get a lot of the casual flyers. It also did not have enough presence to really make in-roads with corporate accounts until closer to the end. On the cost side, those A319/A320 were way too low density and the leases on them were really high. So despite being a new airline, they did not have any CASM advantage. I just checked their final quarters earnings report, they had higher CAM-ex than JetBlue in that quarter despite stage length being 30% longer.

If JetBlue can attract a good portion of those old VX ff, they can run the old VX playbook a lot better than VX ever did. It will now have more gates at LAX than VX ever did. An airline with 75 flights and presence in other parts of the country will have more relevance/brand recognition than 1 with 40+ flights and no presence elsewhere. On the cost side of things, A220-300 will be very efficient for not only the long-thin transcon, but also 1 to 3 hour flights that require frequencies. I can't imagine a better aircraft they can use than that on LAX-SFO/SEA/SMF/SLC/DEN, since much of the competitors are running small to medium mainline aircraft. Mint will be the highest margin aircraft they can use on flights with some premium demand to East Coast and Hawaii. All core A321 will be very cost efficient on VFR flights to central America and also to LAS.

I think they will run into problems in other types of market like smaller west coast market that have very little demand or have medium level of demand but requires frequency. They don't have a RJ fleet that they can use to open up a lot of these smaller west coast destinations that AS has been able to open up recently. They are also not going to be competitive on stuff like LAX-SJC/OAK which would probably require RJ to compete with WN's schedule. They also don't have the right aircraft for markets that have demand for FC seating, but not lie flat. I think they'd struggle mightily to places like ORD/MSY/TPA/BNA.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5036
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:27 pm

n7371f wrote:
This is about JetBlue and LAX. And having seen a couple of market polling results in last few years, I will confidently say that JetBlue has a wider and more Q score in the LA/SoCal area than Alaska does. And when Virgin America was around, their Q score was higher than AS's as well.

Now if you want to go to SEA and PDX, AS could come out tomorrow and support a Trump re-election and they'd still be the most preferred airline in those markets. OK...maybe an exaggeration.

The B6 and AS route networks don’t overlap much. One maint goes north south and west and the other goes east.
 
laca773
Posts: 2081
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 7:10 am

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:41 am

The bottom line is for B6 to operate these competitive markets out of LAX & longer, thin transcons, the A220 will help B6 succeed in markets where the A321 is too large & others where A320 has too much capacity to operate daily or multiple frequencies which the A220 will help solve demand fluctuations daily, weekly, seasonally.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:07 pm

When do the 220’s come online for B6?
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
cpl22586
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:39 am

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:33 pm

nine4nine wrote:
When do the 220’s come online for B6?


I believe the first A220 arrives in December and now back to LAX
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 336
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:44 am

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:14 pm

With this expansion. Will we ever see B6 fly to HNL? I know of course B6 is partnered with HA but they certainly have the aircraft for it and they are growing frequent flier bases in LA and the Bay. I don't expect them to fly hourly but a few flights a day would be sustainable, especially connecting with flights from the East Coast.
 
SurfandSnow
Posts: 1591
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:09 am

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:21 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
With this expansion. Will we ever see B6 fly to HNL? I know of course B6 is partnered with HA but they certainly have the aircraft for it and they are growing frequent flier bases in LA and the Bay. I don't expect them to fly hourly but a few flights a day would be sustainable, especially connecting with flights from the East Coast.


Could LAX-Hawaii support MINT services? Hawaii is a pretty upscale and popular destination for O&D travelers, so...?
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
 
cpl22586
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:39 am

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:28 pm

Insertnamehere wrote:
With this expansion. Will we ever see B6 fly to HNL? I know of course B6 is partnered with HA but they certainly have the aircraft for it and they are growing frequent flier bases in LA and the Bay. I don't expect them to fly hourly but a few flights a day would be sustainable, especially connecting with flights from the East Coast.


It’s interesting I can see them eventually going to Hawaii every time it is brought up to Scott Laurence he doesn’t rule out the possibility. It’s not if just when. The LRs and XLRS definitely give them the option
 
tphuang
Posts: 5471
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:38 pm

I think LAX-Hawaiii is a given at this point. I think it's a 2022 event. I'd be curious to see if they will use LR to operate it or NEO? I could see the justification for operating LRs while TATL demand is slow to come back.

I think SFO to Hawaii is also a possibility at this point. It really depends on what their plans for SFO is.

JetBlue is a leisure focused airline that appeals to premium travelers. Hawaii fits that description pretty well.
 
nine4nine
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:44 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:54 pm

tphuang wrote:
I think LAX-Hawaiii is a given at this point. I think it's a 2022 event. I'd be curious to see if they will use LR to operate it or NEO? I could see the justification for operating LRs while TATL demand is slow to come back.

I think SFO to Hawaii is also a possibility at this point. It really depends on what their plans for SFO is.

JetBlue is a leisure focused airline that appeals to premium travelers. Hawaii fits that description pretty well.



Aside from the typical Hawaiian flights from the mainland, would the LR have range or ETOPS capability to do something like LAX-PPT/LAX-RAR/LAX-NAN?
717, 727-100, 727-200, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 748, 752, 753, 762, 763, 772, 77W, 787-10, DC9, MD80/88/90, DC10, 319, 220-300, 320, 321, 321n, 332, 333, CS100, CRJ200, Q400, E175, E190, ERJ145, EMB120
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5092
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:04 pm

I for one? Think JBLU should do OK at LAX. Especially since Nobody from those other cities is going to ant to connect via LGB and? JBLU will need the international connections to sustain themselves to make LAX a thriving Hub and a connecting point to Asia or south America. Or otherwise? Why fly into LAX at all?
 
tphuang
Posts: 5471
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: JetBlue makes LAX West Coast focus city

Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:09 pm

nine4nine wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I think LAX-Hawaiii is a given at this point. I think it's a 2022 event. I'd be curious to see if they will use LR to operate it or NEO? I could see the justification for operating LRs while TATL demand is slow to come back.

I think SFO to Hawaii is also a possibility at this point. It really depends on what their plans for SFO is.

JetBlue is a leisure focused airline that appeals to premium travelers. Hawaii fits that description pretty well.



Aside from the typical Hawaiian flights from the mainland, would the LR have range or ETOPS capability to do something like LAX-PPT/LAX-RAR/LAX-NAN?


I think LR is a big no.

XLR to PPT is a maybe if they try a light configuration.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LAX-NRT%3B ... =wls&DU=mi

It would be a big plus if they can do NRT, but I don't think XLR can go that far.
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