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fcogafa
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Manston Airport to re-open

Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:12 pm

Manston has been given the go-ahead to re-open after the government overruled objections. Operational date estimated as 2023

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... ub-critics
 
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Vasu
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:29 am

I find this really exciting - it was so sad to see it close a few years back...

What’s interesting is that the article mentions passenger flights as well as just a cargo hub. What airlines/routes are they envisioning, I wonder?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:16 am

Passenger flights will most likely be LCCs and ULCCs, they fly their planes anywhere an airport has something interesting to offer. I can see Ryanair marketing this airport as London Manston airport.
 
by738
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:28 am

outwith cargo I cant see anyone being interested in this for passenger ops, it never worked in the best of times.
 
UAL777UK
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:46 am

by738 wrote:
outwith cargo I cant see anyone being interested in this for passenger ops, it never worked in the best of times.


I agree. Great to see it open again but i cannot see beyond cargo flights here. I hope i am wrong.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:11 am

Time for Manston gateway for 4 runways and terminals for 150mpax
 
User001
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:00 am

This decision is lunacy.

Firstly, freight is being adequately handled in the UK.
EMA is obviously the main cargo hub best placed to serve the bulk of the UK. Doncaster and Prestwick also taking their fair share of the market.
For London itself, Stansted seems more than capable of handling the majority, with Luton and Southend also having supporting roles. The LHR freighters do so as they use slots that no other airlines really want. So even trying to displace the LHR freight seems a little futile as its unlikely airlines would rush for those slots.

Then there is the fact that this would be another London area Airport. Does London need 9 airports? Definitely not!

For avoidance of doubt the list is Heathrow, Gatwick, City, Luton, Southend, Stansted, Biggin Hill, Northolt and now Manston. I've included Biggin hill and Northolt due to including the general aviation around LAX such as Santa Monica, Le Bourget in Paris and Teteboro in New York. But it still doesn't include Blackbushe as another biz jet entry point for the London area and Oxford, which bizzarely, did market itself as London Oxford for a while!

I can't think of many cities having so many airports?

Paris has 4 (if you count Beauvais).

Los Angeles has several but then the greater Los Angeles area is a huge metropolis.

New York has 4 in its immediate vicinity (if you include Teteboro which is just general

Tokyo has 2 main airports and that's a huge city


You get the idea.

Yes, the London aviation market is big, and London as a city is rather large, but 9 airports large? Crazy!
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:08 am

If you include Beauvais, then Paris actually has 5 airports - Pontoise being the other one

That said, Manston's biggest problem is that the roads aren't great, it's not near major cities, and it's got the sea on 3 sides so the cargo catchment area is severely limited
 
cedarjet
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:28 am

Yes London needs all those airports, until Covid 19 they were all at or close to capacity (even Biggin banned GA a few years ago to make room for all their exec traffic). That said Manston closed because it’s in such a bad location, I think if it’d had the traffic it would have stayed open. As has been pointed out, it’s at the end of Kent surrounded by water and farms. So no catchment area worth serving and because of bad roads, no logistical function. I really don’t see the business case.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
AAMDanny
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:09 am

chunhimlai wrote:
Time for Manston gateway for 4 runways and terminals for 150mpax


Like your super plan you had in mind for EXT?

But really, 150m for Kent? Would never happen.
 
PlymSpotter
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:11 am

A dedicated cargo airport to serve the South East doesn't sound foolish to me, although I am sceptical about the market for passenger flights.

The London / UK market is sizeable. I'd rather see it served by 20 airports with lower utilisation that can therefore employ the best environmental practices, than very few highly utilised airports where aircraft collectively spend hundreds of hours a day spinning circles in the sky, or on taxiways as No.25 in line for departure.

If we're to believe the headline that £300m has been set aside for this project, then the numbers must clearly stand up well to interrogation - especially for it to continue in current times when other projects have been paused or canned completely. Bringing skilled jobs to a relatively deprived area will be a good thing too.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
richcandy
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:21 am

I live near Canterbury and Manston has often been written about in the local papers and discussed in parish council meetings etc. When I first lived here there were lots of objection with regards to night flights. Then the airport was sold and the new owners really seamed to buy it in order to develop it for housing. However that was even more unpopular. It's difficult to say if there is even a need for housing in the area or not. There is not a lot of employment near by.

I flew KLM from there once however that service didn't seam to be that popular. Someone on this forum pointed out ages ago that if you live say in Whistable or Canterbury then you are used to the 1.5-2hr journey to LHR so its difficult to get people to change to fly via AMS with maybe not the best connections.

As for freight it is still a bit of a distance from London but there is the Thanet Earth complex about 10 mins away. However I don't know how much they import or export from there.



Alex
 
JibberJim
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:26 am

AAMDanny wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Time for Manston gateway for 4 runways and terminals for 150mpax


Like your super plan you had in mind for EXT?

But really, 150m for Kent? Would never happen.


It could be a hub, with hourly A380 shuttles to other London airports to take advantage of their better local train connections!
 
Stickpusher
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:45 am

User001 wrote:
For avoidance of doubt the list is Heathrow, Gatwick, City, Luton, Southend, Stansted, Biggin Hill, Northolt and now Manston. I've included Biggin hill and Northolt due to including the general aviation around LAX such as Santa Monica, Le Bourget in Paris and Teteboro in New York. But it still doesn't include Blackbushe as another biz jet entry point for the London area and Oxford, which bizzarely, did market itself as London Oxford for a while!


If you're on the fence about Blackbushe, surely Farnborough has to get a look-in! There are a lot of people heading up into town that drop in there.

As for Manston, I lived in Kent many years ago, and flew from there quite a bit (Headcorn and Rochester) when Manston was active, and it was a ghost town in comparison to the airports I regularly used despite having far better infrastructure at the time. Even Lydd gave it a run for its money. But then it was useful for emergency diversions and also for crew training even on pretty large aircraft- the BA A380. Concorde in its day, got to operate there briefly, I think for training.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-23315750

The use for emergencies was pretty much Manston's best reason for staying active, they could foam the runway, land a stricken aircraft, and not have to concern themselves with diverting away a whole load of flights. For that purpose it was perfect.

There's a lot of talk about freight being an option, but an airport so far to one edge can't really be called a hub, the catchment area is to the west, and the market within Kent is actually quite small, so goods would probably leave the county even if they were destined to come back.

Mind you, a huge warehousing option perhaps tied in with the tunnel and so on would be possible, with internal freight flights as there are from other airports to move things up-country. But that's a lot of up-front investment for no certain return. East Midlands has got things pretty well sewn up.

Manston was relevant pretty much only when even a hop from there to Rotterdam was fraught with risk, and that was a long time ago. From then on it was destined to be overflown.
 
SueD
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:23 am

With the right marketing and a little blue sky thinking Manston could Be a nice little Freeport right on the doorstep of EU;imho it’s immediate competition is really Ostend .

As a Freeport site build onsite clearance facilities to both the EU and UK markets - Gotta build those facilities post Brexit anyway .

How’s about stealing traffic going south east !

If goods bound for the UK can land in the Netherlands and Belgium and traverse the Channel, with careful planning an EU/UK clearing station on site at Manston and careful pricing, imho some of those flows have the potential to be reversed .

I am being quite serous this could be a major transit point into the EU for UK roaded exports and landed traffic transit traffic.

Combine this with the required warehousing as a Freeport area , and the potential is a rival to Shannon and some very needed employment in and around Thanet.

The Freeport tax breaks could easily entice major companies back to the area including Pfizer
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:32 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
If you include Beauvais, then Paris actually has 5 airports - Pontoise being the other one



6 with Vatry if you really want to be anal.....
 
bennett123
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:43 am

HaHa.

This is not EXT.

6 runways!!.

Not sure if there will be any gain for cargo to/from the EU.

Cargo to/from UK to Non EU certainly.
Last edited by bennett123 on Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Leej
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:44 am

chunhimlai wrote:
Time for Manston gateway for 4 runways and terminals for 150mpax


:stirthepot: :stirthepot: :white: :white: :rotfl: :rotfl:

With hourly A380 shuttles to Exeter - what a guaranteed moneyspinner!
 
bennett123
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:25 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-53350272

I see that it will open in 2023.

Light years away in these uncertain times.
 
SEU
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:36 pm

Always have had a soft spot for Manston and always thought it could be a successful airport (relatively) but its never seemed to work. I can see it becoming a cargo hub for the UK post brexit, with flights from EU going through Manston instead of queuing at the border. However anything that can be done at Manston could be done at Luton, EMA, LHR I guess.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:46 am

bennett123 wrote:
HaHa.

This is not EXT.

6 runways!!.

Not sure if there will be any gain for cargo to/from the EU.

Cargo to/from UK to Non EU certainly.


That is suggested by someone (not me) else sa replacement of LHR

https://ibb.co/b3VX76K
 
TC957
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:08 am

Unless you live in or need to get to the eastern half of Kent, MSE is about as useless a location for an airport as it's possible to be.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:33 am

Don’t forget the IR flights..
LHR-MSE-IKA
 
AAMDanny
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:48 am

In all seriousness, why does it need to reopen?

For freight, LHR and STN serve the market well and are better connected to the rest of the UK from the South East of England. Also, very much more established. LTN even has a very small DHL operation. LGW is not that far away either and has their own Cargo facilities, and again is better connected to the rest of the UK.

As a passenger airport, LGW/STN/LHR/LTN/SEN/LCY all encompass the 'London' market very well, EU-Jet didn't have a great track record with their pax ops at MSE. Neither did FlyBe and KLM. So why would it be such a success now? The only benefit it would be is for Locals not wanting to travel to a London Airport - which are accessible by road and rail. If the market ever really was there, why did it fail for passenger operations the first time round?

It would be a huge waste of money reopening. From reading the article, it sounds like local MP's have been using it as leverage to lure in more voters.
 
LJ
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:39 pm

SueD wrote:
With the right marketing and a little blue sky thinking Manston could Be a nice little Freeport right on the doorstep of EU;imho it’s immediate competition is really Ostend .


Please explain why Ostend is a competitor.

SueD wrote:
As a Freeport site build onsite clearance facilities to both the EU and UK markets - Gotta build those facilities post Brexit anyway .


Yet the political climate is not as such that the EU would facilitate pre-clearance which is even not possible under the current EU regulations). Moreover, do you mean that argo arrives at Manston and then flies to EU countries? If so, what's the benefit in cost of doing that? Better to fly your cargo to Liege, Brussels, Amsterdam, Maastricht or Luxembourg.

SueD wrote:
If goods bound for the UK can land in the Netherlands and Belgium and traverse the Channel, with careful planning an EU/UK clearing station on site at Manston and careful pricing, imho some of those flows have the potential to be reversed .


You cannot compete on price when your customer is only a few 100km away at max. Airports like AMS, BRU, LGG, LUX and MST are located perfectly for NW Europe + Ruhrarea.

SueD wrote:
I am being quite serous this could be a major transit point into the EU for UK roaded exports and landed traffic transit traffic.


Why would a logistics manager of a EU based company add another chain when he can just pick it up at an airport in the EU? It's not that an airport is the ultimate destination for most of the cargo.
 
tallis
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:49 pm

To all those asking why it needs to re-open, try diverting in London airspace on a windy or foggy night and then getting offered Birmingham / East Mids as the closest place able to accept you, if you’re lucky! (Manchester or even Glasgow/Paris/Amsterdam if you’re unlucky...)

The fact is that, pre-covid, London’s airports were collectively woefully short of capacity for diversions and unforeseen events.

Pilots will certainly welcome having Manston open and available as a plan B or C. Even if there aren’t any passenger facilities initially, it could still be useful as a place to land, wait for the weather to clear and refuel depending on the time of day.
 
bennett123
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:31 pm

Are you saying that it will only be a stand by.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:47 pm

I can certainly see a reason for Manston being opened as a reserve airport when bad weather appears. However, if that is the primary motivation for reopening the airport, then it should probably be funded in the same way as NATS - namely that the collection of airlines which use the London airport system should all put some money into the pot
Furthermore, there would be a need potentially to have significant handling facilities if being a bad weather reserve airport is the primary motivation. That means having many of the costs of being a major airport if MSE is to be an effective reliever airport, but little of the revenues. If even 5 A320s were diverted from LGW to MSE within 1 hour, would Manston really manage ?

That said, Prestwick is great when bad weather turns up in Scotland - but it seems to be losing large quantities of money. Why would Manston succeed where Prestwick fails ?
 
tallis
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:05 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
if that is the primary motivation for reopening the airport, then it should probably be funded in the same way as NATS - namely that the collection of airlines which use the London airport system should all put some money into the pot


Whilst this would never happen, I completely agree with you. Apart from anything else the airlines would probably end up saving money because if you knew Manston was going to be available you could carry a lot less extra fuel when things are looking a bit dodgy at your destination.

davidjohnson6 wrote:

Furthermore, there would be a need potentially to have significant handling facilities if being a bad weather reserve airport is the primary motivation. That means having many of the costs of being a major airport if MSE is to be an effective reliever airport, but little of the revenues. If even 5 A320s were diverted from LGW to MSE within 1 hour, would Manston really manage ?

That said, Prestwick is great when bad weather turns up in Scotland - but it seems to be losing large quantities of money. Why would Manston succeed where Prestwick fails ?


You’re correct about all of this but I wasn’t arguing there’s a solid business case to be had out of diversions alone (perhaps there isn’t a solid business case at all...), merely that Manston does have a purpose and those who argue that the current London airports provide enough capacity are missing an important point.
 
tallis
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:07 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Are you saying that it will only be a stand by.


No, just that alongside its freight usage it could be a very useful alternate.
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:41 pm

User001 wrote:
This decision is lunacy.

Firstly, freight is being adequately handled in the UK.
EMA is obviously the main cargo hub best placed to serve the bulk of the UK. Doncaster and Prestwick also taking their fair share of the market.
For London itself, Stansted seems more than capable of handling the majority, with Luton and Southend also having supporting roles. The LHR freighters do so as they use slots that no other airlines really want. So even trying to displace the LHR freight seems a little futile as its unlikely airlines would rush for those slots.

Then there is the fact that this would be another London area Airport. Does London need 9 airports? Definitely not!

For avoidance of doubt the list is Heathrow, Gatwick, City, Luton, Southend, Stansted, Biggin Hill, Northolt and now Manston. I've included Biggin hill and Northolt due to including the general aviation around LAX such as Santa Monica, Le Bourget in Paris and Teteboro in New York. But it still doesn't include Blackbushe as another biz jet entry point for the London area and Oxford, which bizzarely, did market itself as London Oxford for a while!

I can't think of many cities having so many airports?

Paris has 4 (if you count Beauvais).

Los Angeles has several but then the greater Los Angeles area is a huge metropolis.

New York has 4 in its immediate vicinity (if you include Teteboro which is just general

Tokyo has 2 main airports and that's a huge city


You get the idea.

Yes, the London aviation market is big, and London as a city is rather large, but 9 airports large? Crazy!


It's not really so crazy. The catchment area around London is about 20 million, so that works out to about 2-3 million per airport. Anyway, each have their own niche and they're doing just fine. Biggin Hill is mainly just private jets, Luton and Stansted are low cost hubs, Gatwick is a mix but mainly leisure and Heathrow is the main hub for foreign legacy airlines and BA. Each serves its own purpose and they generally make use of a single runway.

I think it makes perfect sense to make full use of the runways we already have before we need to start building new airports. There's no real need to build some huge monstrosity far away from the city along with all of the accompanying hotels, rail and road links that would be required. I know that in the US there are huge areas of flat land available for development, but in the UK that simply isn't the case. Wherever you go you'd have to knock down entire villages to build the airport itself as well as new roads and railway links, you'd have to tunnel under rivers and hills at huge expense and the end result would be something worse than what we have now.

Sure, one single airport would be better for transfers but there are already plenty of transfer opportunities and most passengers are travelling to/from London, which is the highest-yield traffic anyway. The so-called "Borisport" idea of a new airport in the Thames Estuary has lots of disadvantages. It would take 2-3 hours to drive there from my side of London, it would cause a huge increase in traffic congestion on the M25 and enormous environmental damage, plus it would cost billions and take a very long time to build. And who would pay for it?

If the people developing Manston think they can make money there, let them try. The runway is right next to the sea so there are no whinging neighbours to complain about arrivals from that direction. It would probably be a good place for cargo flights. For passengers there is probably not much demand but they might find their niche, for example some short hops across the water to Amsterdam.
 
peterinlisbon
Posts: 1773
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:37 am

Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:45 pm

TC957 wrote:
Unless you live in or need to get to the eastern half of Kent, MSE is about as useless a location for an airport as it's possible to be.


Part of London is in Kent.
 
davidjohnson6
Posts: 804
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:17 pm

If the aim is to try to reuse existing runways and avoid the cost of building major infrastructure, then Cranfield Airport if it were converted to cargo, seems likely to be a far superior candidate as a freight hub, compared to Manston...
Next to the M1, close to a major and recently upgraded rail route, runway already exists and oriented so neither Milton Keynes nor Bedford are under the flight path, close to many of the warehouses and logistics centres in the Golden Triangle at the southern half of the M1, etc...
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10711
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Re: Manston Airport to re-open

Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:35 pm

AAMDanny wrote:
In all seriousness, why does it need to reopen?

For freight, LHR and STN serve the market well and are better connected to the rest of the UK from the South East of England. Also, very much more established. LTN even has a very small DHL operation. LGW is not that far away either and has their own Cargo facilities


LGW couldn't get rid of DAS quick enough. Seeing a dedicated freighter movement at LGW is incredibly rare for a reason. At LHR cargo pure cargo movements aren't exactly flourishing due to capacity, and LTN cannot accommodate anything larger than an B767 / A300 Freighter. All these airports are operating at or very near capacity. So the only true competitor is STN - which ultimately will also fill up and reach capacity once the Covid-19 depression is passed. This is why operating Manston primarily as a cargo facility makes a lot of sense.

davidjohnson6 wrote:
If the aim is to try to reuse existing runways and avoid the cost of building major infrastructure, then Cranfield Airport if it were converted to cargo, seems likely to be a far superior candidate as a freight hub, compared to Manston...


But with only a 1,799m runway - a big problem. The whole point of using Manston is that is has a sizeable 2,750m runway which can accommodate any freighter flying.
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