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fra-flyer
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80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:11 pm

Hey Guys,

So I had a conversation with my mom recently who flew FRA-JNB on LH and SAA quite often back in the 80s.

She told me that they always had one stop. While sometimes they stopped in Nairobi, she also remembers to refuel on an island but can't recall where this was.

My question would be, do you have any old flight schedules or can you recall from your memory on which island they stopped?

Thanks a lot.

Cheers

David
Greetings from Frankfurt
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:14 pm

http://departedflights.com/SA0380.html

Ilha do Sal off West Africa.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
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klm617
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:14 pm

fra-flyer wrote:
Hey Guys,

So I had a conversation with my mom recently who flew FRA-JNB on LH and SAA quite often back in the 80s.

She told me that they always had one stop. While sometimes they stopped in Nairobi, she also remembers to refuel on an island but can't recall where this was.

My question would be, do you have any old flight schedules or can you recall from your memory on which island they stopped?

Thanks a lot.

Cheers

David


Ilha Do Sal. Cape Verde Islands
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
fra-flyer
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:17 pm

Awesome guys, thanks for the instant reply!!!!!

I assume this was on a 742?
Greetings from Frankfurt
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:17 pm

fra-flyer wrote:
Hey Guys,

So I had a conversation with my mom recently who flew FRA-JNB on LH and SAA quite often back in the 80s.

She told me that they always had one stop. While sometimes they stopped in Nairobi, she also remembers to refuel on an island but can't recall where this was.


Did they also stopped with LH? I would say only with SAA but could be wrong.
 
fra-flyer
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:25 pm

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

Did they also stopped with LH? I would say only with SAA but could be wrong.


With LH they stopped in Nairobi...
Greetings from Frankfurt
 
Eirules
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:27 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
http://departedflights.com/SA0380.html

Ilha do Sal off West Africa.


Their European route network - LHR, FRA, VIE, ZRH, ATH, FCO, MAD, BRU, LIS. How they have fallen
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gmcc
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:36 pm

The South African LHR-JNB flight always landed about 11pm on the island. Just a fuel stop for around an hour. There was a nonstop as well once they got the 747SPs.
 
qm001
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:55 pm

LH stopped in NBO, 100%! SA in SID, in fact they built the airport in SID specifically to cater for these stops, as even the 74L couldn't make Europe around the bulge, non-stop.
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
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DLHAM
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:16 pm

qm001 wrote:
LH stopped in NBO, 100%! SA in SID, in fact they built the airport in SID specifically to cater for these stops, as even the 74L couldn't make Europe around the bulge, non-stop.


LHR/FRA-SID-JNB?! Thats a more than 2.500km detour!
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:23 pm

Well. SAA could not overfly any black African countries, so it’s a long detour
 
Zimzam
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:27 am

LHR or FRA to JNB via SID was nothing compared to TLV/JNB via LIS and SID! That’s got to be one of the craziest routes ever operated...

I flew CPT/LIS/LHR on the 74L, so not all their Europe flights stopped at SID, but most did. I also remember a stop at SID on the 743 when there were four SAA jumbos on the ground at the same time, in the middle of the night!

Cheers
 
Zimzam
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:32 am

As an aside.... LH to JNB were always via Nairobi, as were BA, KL, LY, SK, OA, and AZ.

Whereas TP, UTA, SN and SR operated via Kinshasa.
 
flyjay123
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:08 am

Thought I read somewhere SAA sometimes stopped in Gran Canaria... maybe it was earlier in the 70's.
 
djb77
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:10 am

I recall that SAA/SAL also stopped at Las Palmas, Gran Canaria, but I'm unsure if that was perhaps in the 1970s when they were still operating 707s on the LHR (and other European) routes.
 
Toni_
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:42 am

SAA used to sell seats to the Cape Verde Islands too. That's how AMS-SID became my first flight ever back in '87.

 
jfk777
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:43 am

Nairobi was the refueling stop for most European airlines on the way to Johannesburg. Now it seems odd since it was only about 11 hours from LHR, CDG, AMS & FRA.
 
airbazar
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:10 am

gmcc wrote:
The South African LHR-JNB flight always landed about 11pm on the island. Just a fuel stop for around an hour. There was a nonstop as well once they got the 747SPs.

They also stopped in Faro (FAO). In fact there are fotos in the database. So I don't think the SP's were always able to fly non-stop. Or maybe their final destination wasn't LHR but somewhere further like FRA.

IMO that livery on the SP was arguably the best looking livery-type combination in commercial aviation, even to this day.
 
Zimzam
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:40 am

djb77 wrote:
I recall that SAA/SAL also stopped at Las Palmas, Gran Canaria, but I'm unsure if that was perhaps in the 1970s when they were still operating 707s on the LHR (and other European) routes.


Yes, they did indeed. I recall routing LHR/LPA/HRE on a 742...
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:45 am

airbazar wrote:
They also stopped in Faro (FAO). In fact there are fotos in the database.

IMO that livery on the SP was arguably the best looking livery-type combination in commercial aviation, even to this day.


One caption reads; "Classic SAA livery with the cockpit flash..."
Note that dark flash, running up the nose, picking up the cockpit windows... and then tapering elegantly to a sharp point.

Did anybody else make such a feature like that out of an anti-glare strip? On any aircraft, not just a 747SP?
(on reflection, it could only be a 747, or 747SP, with the raised cockpit - otherwise the line would coincide with the normal run of pax windows / cheat line)

FWIW... P4-MES "The Bandit" doesn't even come close
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
CometOrbit
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:56 am

Ilha do Sal (SID) was also a stop on the JNB-JFK SAA service.
When I did JNB-SID-LHR in 1982 we were not allowed off the plane during the stop.
The same applied at Mauritius on the weekly SYD-PER-MRU-JNB.
Two of the most tedious flights of my life.
The routeing from JNB ran out to sea just south of the Kunene river which was/is the Angola border with Namibia (SW Africa then).
 
raylee67
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:18 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
http://departedflights.com/SA0380.html

Ilha do Sal off West Africa.


Didn't SAL fly JNB-SIN-TPE too in the 1980s? Don't see that on the map?

Didn't know they were flying to HKG via Seychelles! Do they have rights between Seychelles and HKG?
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
TFFIP
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:38 pm

Toni_ wrote:
SAA used to sell seats to the Cape Verde Islands too. That's how AMS-SID became my first flight ever back in '87.



The only place I have ever seen boarding on the right hand side is at Ilha do Sol.
A kind of one way land.taxi.park.shove off again system i guess.
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:40 pm

South African Airways, during the Apartheid years, could not overfly any of the sub-Saharan African countries, hence any South Africa to Europe flight had to be turned into an over-water flight. Not only this added a few more hours to the trip (I believe around 3) but it also increased costs, as the aircraft had to stop at Sal island to be refueled. All of this terminated right after Apartheid got abolished and the first black leadership got into power (Mandela got into presidency in May 1994, so it might have happened one or two years earlier).
 
ZRHYYZ773ER
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:49 pm

fra-flyer wrote:
Hey Guys,

So I had a conversation with my mom recently who flew FRA-JNB on LH and SAA quite often back in the 80s.

She told me that they always had one stop. While sometimes they stopped in Nairobi, she also remembers to refuel on an island but can't recall where this was.

My question would be, do you have any old flight schedules or can you recall from your memory on which island they stopped?

Thanks a lot.

Cheers

David



SAA used to fly the 742 or 74L, due to the Apartheid they had to fly around Africa, LH used the 747, SR the D10 via GVA, NBO or GVA, FIH to JNB and back only via FIH/NBO to ZRH, IB used the D10, KL, AF, BA the 747, OA used the 747 or A300 via NBO, AZ the 747 I guess
707, 732,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, 727, 741, 742, 743, 744, 747-8, 74SP, 772,73, 787-8/9, DC-8-62,63, DC-9s, DC-10-10/30, DC-7, DC-3/4/7, MD11, A319, 20,21, 310,332,333, 342/3/6, TU3/5/204, IL-62/96/18, L410, ATP, H748, 146, S340,2000, E-175/190, D8-400, AT42, 72
 
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BN727227Ultra
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:14 pm

I could have sworn that carriers used Dakar. I hadn't heard of Cabo Verde being used. #themoreyouknow Thanks!
 
Bhoy
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:34 pm

raylee67 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
http://departedflights.com/SA0380.html

Ilha do Sal off West Africa.


[b]Didn't SAL fly JNB-SIN-TPE too in the 1980s? Don't see that on the map?[b]

Didn't know they were flying to HKG via Seychelles! Do they have rights between Seychelles and HKG?

Yes, that was the routing that the 743Combi was on when it crashed off Mauritius due to a fire in the cargo compartment.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:45 pm

Diplomatic relations between South Africa and neighboring countries was weird, but as others here have stated, apartheid was a stupid thing that is now rotting downstairs, consigned to the scrap heap of history.

What is worth noting is that there seemed to be a difference between Europe and North America to South Africa by SAA and foreign airlines. South African Airways was denied overfly permits for virtually every other African country, which forced it to flow around the "bulge" of West Africa. Perhaps the only reason they had any capability of flights to Europe at all is because of Isla do Sal, allowing a refueling stop. Even with that, however, this added 28.6% to the length of the route:

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=JNB-LHR%2C+JNB-SID-LHR&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=nm&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=

It is also worth noting that a few African nations recognized the Apartheid government, including Mauritius, which was a refueling point for some Asian flights into the late 1980's:

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19871128-0

On the other hand, this didn't seem to apply to foreign airlines flying to JNB and/or South Africa. Pan Am, like everyone else, played hopscotch in the early years, stopping at multiple locations along the way.

From 1973: http://www.departedflights.com/PA042973.html "Just five easy stops to Johannesburg!!"

From 1979: http://www.departedflights.com/PA042979.html Great Circle Mapper states that going via South America adds 17.7% to the length of the trip.

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=JFK-JNB%2C+JFK-GRU-JNB&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=&PATH-UNITS=mi&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=

JNB appears to have been pulled in 1980, but returns in 1982, JFK-ABJ-JNB:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042780.html

http://www.departedflights.com/PA090882p50.html Flights #181 and #182

Johannesburg is gone in both the 1985 and 1987 editions.

From one of my most prized possession , my 01 July - 29 Oct 1988 Lufthansa itinerary book, Lufthansa was flying to JNB nonstop, but still also listing SAA flights as well:

Image

Image

Image

Note the flying time difference in the "non-stop" of SAA (13:30) versus Lufthansa (10:55). There's the fuel stop and routing around the bulge of West Africa.

I have an Olympic Airways and SAS timetable from the late 1980's, and while SAS flies only to Cairo in Africa, Olympic was flying ATH-NBO-JNB.

Image
 
andz
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:15 pm

Bhoy wrote:
raylee67 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
http://departedflights.com/SA0380.html

Ilha do Sal off West Africa.


[b]Didn't SAL fly JNB-SIN-TPE too in the 1980s? Don't see that on the map?[b]

Didn't know they were flying to HKG via Seychelles! Do they have rights between Seychelles and HKG?

Yes, that was the routing that the 743Combi was on when it crashed off Mauritius due to a fire in the cargo compartment.


No, the routing was via MRU, this is how the disappearance of the Helderberg was first made public here, it was on the early morning news that "SA295 is overdue at Mauritius".

In addition to SID, ABJ was also used as a fuel stop to Europe.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
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FlyCaledonian
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:18 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
http://departedflights.com/SA0380.html

Ilha do Sal off West Africa.

Windhoek and Salisbury are their only continental Africa destinations in 1980, which may seem odd to some until it's remembered that Windhoek at that time was the capital of South West Africa (under South African rule until 1990, although home rule was gradually granted from 1978) whilst Salisbury (renamed Harare in 1982) was the capital of Southern Rhodesia, re-established temporarily as a British colony in 1979 as part of formally transitioning what had been Rhodesia (from 1965 following a Unilateral Declaration of Independence by the white minority government) to the independent state of Zimbabwe just one month after that timetable map in April 1980.
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
VC10DC10
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Re: 80s Europe-South Africa Fuel Stop Question

Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:15 pm

Zimzam wrote:
As an aside.... LH to JNB were always via Nairobi


In addition to Nairobi, LH had some service to JNB via ACC, too.

https://www.timetableimages.com/ttimage ... h68-01.jpg

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