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Justjoshua
Topic Author
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:59 am

Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:56 am

How many Southwest FA’s will be furloughed? It’s bound to happen once traffic falls after Labor Day
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2033
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:39 am

WN is currently offering various extended time off packages (6,12,18 mo) along with a voluntary separation (retirement) packages. Once they have that figured out they will go from there.. Hopefully (fingers and toes crossed) things work out ok.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8068
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:55 am

How many, and how quickly, is probably a function of Southwest's intent (meaning: willingness to carry extra staff to avoid furloughs) and revenue projections. If, in 1Q21, they're carrying no more than 70% of the passengers and 60% of the revenue of 1Q19 (because avg fares are way down, too), I can't see how they avoid furloughs. (It's implicit that they won't get enough to take voluntary leave/long enough leaves, nor early retirements, to put staffing and demand in balance.)
 
wnflyguy
Posts: 1962
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:36 pm

With the deadline for taking the ExTO and VSP on July 15. I wouldn't expect an announcement until sometime in August until WN runs it's revamped next 2021 January-April flight schedule numbers.
I think if the US was on a downward trend with Covid 19 more people would not partake in either program with the anticipation of normal life returning.
But since the cases are spiking and the uncertainties of how safe it's going to be for kids returning to school. This might get a few more people to opt into taking one of the packages available at the last minute.
I'd be surprised if they furlough at all.
But as the always say in this industry NEVER say NEVER!
Fingers crossed from my Old WN friends.

Flyguy
My Wings are clipped just another Retired Airline person. The Ultimate Armchair out of the loop airline industry geek. Aloha Mr Hand!
 
WNagent310
Posts: 60
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:11 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:17 pm

Still a couple days left for those who want to take EXTO and/or VSP. In a video call internally with employees the news is still rather grim, according to GK we are still thousands short of the number needing to be reached for voluntary means. Furloughs are a very real possibility come Oct 1st. I myself have been looking ahead for other work in the case that I won’t make the cut if it happens. Many I know in the 4 stations I’ve worked at those who are at the upper echelon in seniority in there respective stations have been taking the VSP program. Only a handful of stations are accepting EXTO due to staffing needs. Many of our big stations are handing out MOT(Mandatory Overtime) due to a lack of staff. Agents on the ETO program and have not and/or not answering there phones to be called back. Many of us employees are on the ETO program for 1,2, or 3 months. Given the recent slide in bookings, I’d imagine we will scale back just a bit as many flights are now leaving 40-50% full. Compared to a couple weeks ago flights leaving full with our social distancing cap.

With that all said, I’d be very surprised if we do furlough. Worse case and GK alluded to it on his recent video call to employees that a pay and benefits cut would possibly happen before furloughs in an effort to save all our jobs. Hoping for the best for all my WN family.
 
tomaheath
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:39 pm

WNagent310 wrote:
Still a couple days left for those who want to take EXTO and/or VSP. In a video call internally with employees the news is still rather grim, according to GK we are still thousands short of the number needing to be reached for voluntary means. Furloughs are a very real possibility come Oct 1st. I myself have been looking ahead for other work in the case that I won’t make the cut if it happens. Many I know in the 4 stations I’ve worked at those who are at the upper echelon in seniority in there respective stations have been taking the VSP program. Only a handful of stations are accepting EXTO due to staffing needs. Many of our big stations are handing out MOT(Mandatory Overtime) due to a lack of staff. Agents on the ETO program and have not and/or not answering there phones to be called back. Many of us employees are on the ETO program for 1,2, or 3 months. Given the recent slide in bookings, I’d imagine we will scale back just a bit as many flights are now leaving 40-50% full. Compared to a couple weeks ago flights leaving full with our social distancing cap.

With that all said, I’d be very surprised if we do furlough. Worse case and GK alluded to it on his recent video call to employees that a pay and benefits cut would possibly happen before furloughs in an effort to save all our jobs. Hoping for the best for all my WN family.

I have a lot of respect for the employees if most agree to take a cut in pay to save the jobs of others. I wish you the best of luck.
 
737MAX7
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:51 pm

tomaheath wrote:
WNagent310 wrote:
Still a couple days left for those who want to take EXTO and/or VSP. In a video call internally with employees the news is still rather grim, according to GK we are still thousands short of the number needing to be reached for voluntary means. Furloughs are a very real possibility come Oct 1st. I myself have been looking ahead for other work in the case that I won’t make the cut if it happens. Many I know in the 4 stations I’ve worked at those who are at the upper echelon in seniority in there respective stations have been taking the VSP program. Only a handful of stations are accepting EXTO due to staffing needs. Many of our big stations are handing out MOT(Mandatory Overtime) due to a lack of staff. Agents on the ETO program and have not and/or not answering there phones to be called back. Many of us employees are on the ETO program for 1,2, or 3 months. Given the recent slide in bookings, I’d imagine we will scale back just a bit as many flights are now leaving 40-50% full. Compared to a couple weeks ago flights leaving full with our social distancing cap.

With that all said, I’d be very surprised if we do furlough. Worse case and GK alluded to it on his recent video call to employees that a pay and benefits cut would possibly happen before furloughs in an effort to save all our jobs. Hoping for the best for all my WN family.

I have a lot of respect for the employees if most agree to take a cut in pay to save the jobs of others. I wish you the best of luck.

We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.
 
kiowa
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:21 pm

A bit more info. Flying a heavier schedule has a price to pay.

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... furloughs/
 
ZazuPIT
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:32 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:09 pm

WN is my airline of choice. I fear come October1, there's going to to be a lot of bloodletting for every airline.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4759
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:15 am

WN might be much less effected than UA,AA, and DL but I can't see them not needing to furlough or layoff. Would be a real testimate to their packages being very generous if they get enough people voluntarily. AA and UA with so many international routes I see Oct 1 being a historically sad day. Let's all hope for less but the virus and travel are not showing good signs here. WN let's really hope their mostly domestic schedule shields them from the worst of it! Best of luck everyone
 
klkla
Posts: 847
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:51 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:22 am

737MAX7 wrote:
We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.


Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.
 
Mac289
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:33 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:47 am

klkla wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.


Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.


But it's 100 percent true and furthermore a very apt analogy... and you are generally saying the same thing.

From what I've been hearing through the grapevine at my station through different sources, I don't expect any concessions from unions. If it's covered under the CBA, I see hell freezing over a second time before any of that is given concessionary treatment. If we do see benefits cut, it will probably be non union cuts. Supervisors, managers, mid level managers, the guy in the hat who has that one office in that one cubicle who nobody is really certain why he stares at cameras all day issuing letters for minor infractions that hurt literally no one-- all in an effort to seem needed...those are the people who should be more worried. I expect the unions to stand fast and not give on anything, especially ramp/ops/provo under the triple nickel.

Regardless once Octobers roll around I fear that many of us, be we WN, UA, AA, or DL, will be seeing an exceptionally fluid and fast moving situation in regards to cutbacks. Some of us may be out of a job by then, and that's just fact. All we can do is wait and hope... Expect the best and prepare for the worst.
 
737MAX7
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:05 am

klkla wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.


Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.

Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4685
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:41 am

Considering how hard the latest round of negotiations were for some unions during the good times it’s hard to imagine times will ever be good enough in the future to get back anything given up.

Check out what some of the folks who’ve been through this before have to say in the legacy threads. Concessions won’t guarantee no furloughs.

Hoping for the best.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4759
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:19 am

Southwest Airlines CEO: Passenger traffic needs to triple by end of year to avoid layoffs and furloughs

0% chance of happening. I guess that is his way of saying layoffs are coming? That's just impossible and way too soon
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
Posts: 445
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:09 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:46 am

737MAX7 wrote:
klkla wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.


Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.

Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:


Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.
 
AAPramugari14
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:35 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:16 am

klkla wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
We have plenty of people who would rather lose their job than take a pay cut to keep their jobs. They’d rather stay in their nice warm estate room on the Titanic than be inconvenienced by being chilly on the life raft.


Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.


It’s not an incorrect comment. It’s reality. A certain major airline has a significant portion of the FA workforce that are well beyond retirement age. A good portion have passed the age of 65 with a significant amount in their 70s and 80s. This population refuses to leave even though they have the ability to do so. While some can physically do the job many cannot and struggle yet they still stay. The issue? They’ve all been vocal they would never take pay cuts or allow reduced hours to help curb furloughs.
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5280
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:04 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
Southwest Airlines CEO: Passenger traffic needs to triple by end of year to avoid layoffs and furloughs

0% chance of happening. I guess that is his way of saying layoffs are coming? That's just impossible and way too soon


Yep might as well say furloughs are inevitable, triple would basically be 2019 levels
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
reltney
Posts: 635
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:11 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
klkla wrote:

Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.

Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:


Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.


Absolutely true.. great statement. My sw pilot friends were saying about 2000 pilot jobs were on the chopping block . Not seen it in writing yet but no doubt it’s there. Their cockpit talk is just what the thread is about. Do you take a pay/hours cut to possible save a few furloughs or keep what you got Because it’s hard to get concessions back from the company...... seems like no concessions is clearly the way they want to go.

Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:30 pm

Unions generally collapsed in the US and for a variety of reasons. One of them was seniority and high pay. Those at the top 'got theirs', and those at the bottom can go to hell. I grew up in a blue collar union family, and dad was a lower level union boss. In those days unions looked after the lower ranking members. No more. The excuses of those at the top are always the same, phony screeds against management. Which of course lets management off the hook for their real faults.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
reltney
Posts: 635
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:06 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Unions generally collapsed in the US and for a variety of reasons. One of them was seniority and high pay. Those at the top 'got theirs', and those at the bottom can go to hell. I grew up in a blue collar union family, and dad was a lower level union boss. In those days unions looked after the lower ranking members. No more. The excuses of those at the top are always the same, phony screeds against management. Which of course lets management off the hook for their real faults.



Very well put. Sadly unions are still needed and in days like this, it’s helped the worker. Sometimes it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Oh well.

Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
kiowa
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:52 pm

reltney wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:


Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.


Absolutely true.. great statement. My sw pilot friends were saying about 2000 pilot jobs were on the chopping block . Not seen it in writing yet but no doubt it’s there. Their cockpit talk is just what the thread is about. Do you take a pay/hours cut to possible save a few furloughs or keep what you got Because it’s hard to get concessions back from the company...... seems like no concessions is clearly the way they want to go.

Cheers


If the Southwest union had a working relationship with the company, they could come to an agreement where everybody works less hours and prevents furloughs. I’m sure there will be plenty of greedy people who would not like that at all though.
 
reltney
Posts: 635
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:43 pm

It’s a two way streak. The younger pilots (Hired after bankruptcy) at Delta were against helping the older pilots who lost their retirement/pensions in achieving some type of defined benefit in this current contract negotiations. The younger pilots openly stated it was the older pilots fault and the younger pilots should not have to help. Turnabout is fair play as now the younger pilots who were against the retirement plans are now asking the older pilots to leave early so the same younger pilots won’t be furloughed..... guess what answer they got from many older pilots. Only thing to say is...we’ll see.
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
chrisair
Posts: 2155
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2000 11:32 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:56 pm

Mac289 wrote:
[...]the guy in the hat who has that one office in that one cubicle who nobody is really certain why he stares at cameras all day issuing letters for minor infractions that hurt literally no one-- all in an effort to seem needed...[...]


We found the guy who got a letter once! :D
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:39 pm

kiowa wrote:
reltney wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:

Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.


Absolutely true.. great statement. My sw pilot friends were saying about 2000 pilot jobs were on the chopping block . Not seen it in writing yet but no doubt it’s there. Their cockpit talk is just what the thread is about. Do you take a pay/hours cut to possible save a few furloughs or keep what you got Because it’s hard to get concessions back from the company...... seems like no concessions is clearly the way they want to go.

Cheers


If the Southwest union had a working relationship with the company, they could come to an agreement where everybody works less hours and prevents furloughs. I’m sure there will be plenty of greedy people who would not like that at all though.


Or maybe there are plenty of people that have bills to pay and families to feed that need to worry about themselves first. Holding hands and singing Kumbaya around the water cooler isn’t going to pay vary many bills.
 
Passedv1
Posts: 665
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:15 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
klkla wrote:

Wow... what an insensitive and incorrect comment.

Taking a pay cut might not make that big of a difference. They're only going to need so many employees regardless of the payroll cost. They won't keep very many more, if any more, employees because they take a pay cut. Taking a pay cut will only help the stock holders. There is no reason for SWA airline employees to take a pay cut.

Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:


Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.


^^^^^^^ this exactly ^^^^^^^

The lesson has been learned from years of "bargaining" at all the airlines. Every downturn they come running for concessions because "their model this" or "their model that." Every union has learned that you NEVER give permanent contractual concessions in the down times because the lower cost gets built into their models, and we have to use a lot of negotiating capital just to go back to what we had before. If their are any concessions, they are only for a finite amount of time and only for a specific, quantifiable, and measurable benefit to the group.

When things get better, do they come running to us to give us a raise and improved work rules? Absolutely not. Instead you get dividend payouts and stock buybacks. I don't see any of the airlines raising cash by issuing new shares? Maybe they should have put those billions of dollars in the bank. Anyway, you reap what you sow.
 
Sancho99504
Posts: 707
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:44 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:55 pm

Passedv1 wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
737MAX7 wrote:
Insensitive? You know what is insensitive? My ramp brothers and sisters losing their jobs because of the people i talk about. I’d rather take a slight paycut than my fellow rampers be out of a job completely. If you can’t understand that you’re completely tone deaf. Right now we DON’T have enough people taking time off, we DON’T have enough people taking the buyout which means we will need people to take a pay cut :cry:


Airlines have a long history of extracting concessions from labour groups and then furloughing anyways. When the good times return, airline management takes full advantage of the railway labour act to drag out contract talks for years. Even after long negotiations, it is almost impossible for unions to get back all of what they give up. If you give it up, I would not bank on ever seeing it again.

Don't forget that if things take another downturn after the pay cut, management will come asking for more concessions. The initial concession puts the work group in a bad negotiating position going forward.

Job losses are painful. They are usually temporary. Concessions make the good times feel like bad times.


^^^^^^^ this exactly ^^^^^^^

The lesson has been learned from years of "bargaining" at all the airlines. Every downturn they come running for concessions because "their model this" or "their model that." Every union has learned that you NEVER give permanent contractual concessions in the down times because the lower cost gets built into their models, and we have to use a lot of negotiating capital just to go back to what we had before. If their are any concessions, they are only for a finite amount of time and only for a specific, quantifiable, and measurable benefit to the group.

When things get better, do they come running to us to give us a raise and improved work rules? Absolutely not. Instead you get dividend payouts and stock buybacks. I don't see any of the airlines raising cash by issuing new shares? Maybe they should have put those billions of dollars in the bank. Anyway, you reap what you sow.

Look what happened at UA in 2003. 47% pay and benefit cuts to avoid furloughs and then furloughs happened. I can guarantee you, anyone who was around then, which a lot were, will not take a single concession in this time. Too much has been lost that never came back, even what was once promised to comeback.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
san88
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:30 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:09 am

I’ve been on voluntary leave since May. I will also take the additional 18 month leave offered. I’m blessed to do my personal part. 10+ plus years with WN. I think WN is in the strongest position to survive. I’m very hopeful we will be okay. pay cuts and concessions won’t pass with the majority of the FA membership. Tools such as long / short and monthly leaves as well as schedule sharing needs to be exhausted before furloughs. There’s a last minute rush to take the early retirement and bid leaves as the deadline is tonight.
sit on the Captain side when you fly into SAN
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4424
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:26 am

Alright. Let's just take a deep breath for a moment. Will loads triple by December? Probably not. But!! The future is something we are all banking on. With the possibility of a vaccine coming, things will eventually turn better. The cheeks in the seats will return. If there are furloughs, I am hoping they are short.

So, my suggestion to everyone. If you are working now, it is vital to save starting right now. Take as much as you can and stuff it away. Best case scenario would be having your job still, things get better, and you have a nice little chunk of change saved.

I learned many years ago that the airline industry is really a temporary job. For the younger folks, it rings true to this day. We do know this virus will eventually pass, and we will likely find a fix for it! So. Let's hope by December, we will know or see the light at the end of the tunnel. My heart hurts for all of you that are scrambling and scared. I have been there too many times to count. Just know, you will do what you need to do make ends meet. Southwest will be able to weather this.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Westerwaelder
Posts: 240
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:27 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:50 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Unions generally collapsed in the US and for a variety of reasons. One of them was seniority and high pay. Those at the top 'got theirs', and those at the bottom can go to hell. I grew up in a blue collar union family, and dad was a lower level union boss. In those days unions looked after the lower ranking members. No more. The excuses of those at the top are always the same, phony screeds against management. Which of course lets management off the hook for their real faults.


It's a similar story in the UK. Union Reps tend to look after their own rank/area interests and to hell with everyone else. That's how they split cabin crew at BA to a point where the company can drive through pretty much any changes they like. Seeing the bigger picture is not one of their strengths.
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3620
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:01 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
kiowa wrote:
reltney wrote:

Absolutely true.. great statement. My sw pilot friends were saying about 2000 pilot jobs were on the chopping block . Not seen it in writing yet but no doubt it’s there. Their cockpit talk is just what the thread is about. Do you take a pay/hours cut to possible save a few furloughs or keep what you got Because it’s hard to get concessions back from the company...... seems like no concessions is clearly the way they want to go.

Cheers


If the Southwest union had a working relationship with the company, they could come to an agreement where everybody works less hours and prevents furloughs. I’m sure there will be plenty of greedy people who would not like that at all though.


Or maybe there are plenty of people that have bills to pay and families to feed that need to worry about themselves first. Holding hands and singing Kumbaya around the water cooler isn’t going to pay vary many bills.



Be serious. Everyone has bills to pay. But we all can cut out some unneeded things for a short time and take a cut to make sure others can pay their bills too. If you can'y your part of the reason selfish people are continuing to do things that are spreading this more. And part of the reason for what happened in FLL with Spirit. Because a flight was delayed. Guess me me me is more important than us. I cut back on waste late last year. Concentraited on things that need to be covered. I can now cover my bills for at least a year if I loose my job. Have not really missed much.
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:21 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
kiowa wrote:

If the Southwest union had a working relationship with the company, they could come to an agreement where everybody works less hours and prevents furloughs. I’m sure there will be plenty of greedy people who would not like that at all though.


Or maybe there are plenty of people that have bills to pay and families to feed that need to worry about themselves first. Holding hands and singing Kumbaya around the water cooler isn’t going to pay vary many bills.



Be serious. Everyone has bills to pay. But we all can cut out some unneeded things for a short time and take a cut to make sure others can pay their bills too. If you can'y your part of the reason selfish people are continuing to do things that are spreading this more. And part of the reason for what happened in FLL with Spirit. Because a flight was delayed. Guess me me me is more important than us. I cut back on waste late last year. Concentraited on things that need to be covered. I can now cover my bills for at least a year if I loose my job. Have not really missed much.


I’m not part of the reason selfish people are continuing to do things that are spreading this more. I’m a nurse and I’d love for the country to go in to a required lockdown for 21 days and then slowly reopen. But I’m also realistic and know that the airline industry is based on seniority. Everything about it is based on seniority. Once you give any sort of concessions, you are working three time harder to get back those concessions that you gave... but those dividends, et al., will be flying out of the corporate bank account long before any of those “cost saving” measures are returned to the employees. Even at WN, for years, it was preached that once ROIC reached 15%, there would be an explosion of growth. It was in the 20-30% range for years with very little growth. Until there are concessions from the C-suite and across the board of the non-unionized workforce working out of the palace in Dallas, you will not see ANY union agree to any sort of concessions from their groups.
 
san88
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:30 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:03 pm

Flflyer83 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
you will not see ANY union agree to any sort of concessions from their groups.


That is the unfortunate truth. It literally takes years or even decades for any improvements. Heck, the FAs are working within the same contract from 2008 with extensions and no improvements, and it's 2020 today. Unless you live daily life under a contract and see how slow progress can be made, the majority of the workforce will not approve any concessions and roll anything back. The industry learned from past concessions.
sit on the Captain side when you fly into SAN
 
kiowa
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:36 pm

san88 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
rbavfan wrote:


That is the unfortunate truth. It literally takes years or even decades for any improvements. Heck, the FAs are working within the same contract from 2008 with extensions and no improvements, and it's 2020 today. Unless you live daily life under a contract and see how slow progress can be made, the majority of the workforce will not approve any concessions and roll anything back. The industry learned from past concessions.



I do not completely agree that lowering the hours that someone works is a concession. If a Southwest pilot/FA picks up all the flying they can to max out their own paycheck, less flight crew would be needed and more people would be out of work. I would suggest that the unions work to lower the flight hours and discourage working as much as you can at the expense of others.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:52 pm

kiowa wrote:
san88 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:


That is the unfortunate truth. It literally takes years or even decades for any improvements. Heck, the FAs are working within the same contract from 2008 with extensions and no improvements, and it's 2020 today. Unless you live daily life under a contract and see how slow progress can be made, the majority of the workforce will not approve any concessions and roll anything back. The industry learned from past concessions.



I do not completely agree that lowering the hours that someone works is a concession. If a Southwest pilot/FA picks up all the flying they can to max out their own paycheck, less flight crew would be needed and more people would be out of work. I would suggest that the unions work to lower the flight hours and discourage working as much as you can at the expense of others.

Lowering min guarantee is possible, but discouraging picking up extra flying is a status quo violation and falls foul of the RLA. Groups can absolutely not tell employees to pick up less. Good way to get a cease and desist from Mr or Ms Judge.
 
Flflyer83
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:40 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:55 pm

33% of Flight Attendants signed up for either the voluntary separation program or the extended leave program that was offered.
 
737max8
Posts: 618
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 4:13 am

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:20 pm

I am optimistic with the number of folks signing up for voluntary separation and extended leave, WN can avoid furloughs and layoffs. While the rebound in traffic platued due to the recent spikes, I am hopeful in the months coming it continues to rebound and WN is in the best network and financial position of any US airline.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
Flown on: 717 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 7M8 744 744ER 752 753 762 763 772 773ER 788 789 A220 A319/20/21 A332 A333 A339 A343 A346 A359 A388
 
BillShiphr
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:31 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:49 pm

 
avgeekjohn
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun May 27, 2018 2:24 pm

Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:32 pm

My apologies if this has already been posted, but I couldn't find anything about it and thought I'd share.

Southwest has committed to not furloughing or laying off workers on Oct. 1, though it hasn't given another date of when furloughs may be likely. (Source: https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/26/sou ... -on-oct-1/)

Kinda makes me wonder if there is another CARES deal in the works that we don't know about het. I feel like I've seen hints about another one but nothing too substantial. SWA hasn't been immune to all the coronavirus losses, of course. Any thoughts?
Holding short of life's runway
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 731
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:46 pm

Maybe they see a quick recovery and don’t need layoffs to make it through to better times.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
departedflights
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:46 pm

An incredible number of employees took voluntary long-term leaves with partial pay or a buyout to leave the Company.

The last number I saw was nearly 17,000 of 61,000 employees signed up for one of the programs. That is almost 28% of the workforce.

Included in that number is, I believe, almost 24% of the pilots and 33% of the flight attendants.

These long-term leaves begin in September.

I am sure this has contributed to furloughs not being necessary at this time.
The opinions are expressed are my own and do not represent those of anyone else, including my coworkers or my employer.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4985
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:27 pm

avgeekjohn wrote:
My apologies if this has already been posted, but I couldn't find anything about it and thought I'd share.

Southwest has committed to not furloughing or laying off workers on Oct. 1, though it hasn't given another date of when furloughs may be likely. (Source: https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/26/sou ... -on-oct-1/)

Kinda makes me wonder if there is another CARES deal in the works that we don't know about het. I feel like I've seen hints about another one but nothing too substantial. SWA hasn't been immune to all the coronavirus losses, of course. Any thoughts?


WN has prospered from the commitment of it's team members. They require it? and they get it! If they were to start laying them off at the first sign of trouble?
Then that same Commitment might be lost TO them in the future. of all the Major carriers? I would think Southwest would the VERY last to just hand out furlough notices willy-nilly. That's a proud carrier with proud people. and? they like it that way!. And? I didn't work for them! I worked for one of their Major competitors. But I root for anybody who tries to do it Right! And I once met Herb and his wife on a flight to Hawaii, On United! The old dude was cool and somebody I could easily have worked for.
 
User avatar
smithbs
Posts: 485
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:37 pm

departedflights wrote:
An incredible number of employees took voluntary long-term leaves with partial pay or a buyout to leave the Company.

The last number I saw was nearly 17,000 of 61,000 employees signed up for one of the programs. That is almost 28% of the workforce.

Included in that number is, I believe, almost 24% of the pilots and 33% of the flight attendants.

These long-term leaves begin in September.

I am sure this has contributed to furloughs not being necessary at this time.


Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.
 
departedflights
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:46 pm

smithbs wrote:
departedflights wrote:
An incredible number of employees took voluntary long-term leaves with partial pay or a buyout to leave the Company.

The last number I saw was nearly 17,000 of 61,000 employees signed up for one of the programs. That is almost 28% of the workforce.

Included in that number is, I believe, almost 24% of the pilots and 33% of the flight attendants.

These long-term leaves begin in September.

I am sure this has contributed to furloughs not being necessary at this time.


Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.


No, no... those are COMBINED numbers for long-term leaves AND exit packages. Most of those people will be returning at some point.
The opinions are expressed are my own and do not represent those of anyone else, including my coworkers or my employer.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:06 pm

departedflights wrote:
smithbs wrote:
departedflights wrote:
An incredible number of employees took voluntary long-term leaves with partial pay or a buyout to leave the Company.

The last number I saw was nearly 17,000 of 61,000 employees signed up for one of the programs. That is almost 28% of the workforce.

Included in that number is, I believe, almost 24% of the pilots and 33% of the flight attendants.

These long-term leaves begin in September.

I am sure this has contributed to furloughs not being necessary at this time.


Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.


No, no... those are COMBINED numbers for long-term leaves AND exit packages. Most of those people will be returning at some point.


Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4969
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:22 pm

avgeekjohn wrote:
My apologies if this has already been posted, but I couldn't find anything about it and thought I'd share.

Southwest has committed to not furloughing or laying off workers on Oct. 1, though it hasn't given another date of when furloughs may be likely. (Source: https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/07/26/sou ... -on-oct-1/)

Kinda makes me wonder if there is another CARES deal in the works that we don't know about het. I feel like I've seen hints about another one but nothing too substantial. SWA hasn't been immune to all the coronavirus losses, of course. Any thoughts?

If they wanted a new CARES bill they certainly wouldn’t announced that they ARENT laying people off.

There are a lot of good indicators that 2021 will be on the positive side.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4969
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:24 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
departedflights wrote:
smithbs wrote:

Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.


No, no... those are COMBINED numbers for long-term leaves AND exit packages. Most of those people will be returning at some point.


Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period

Is would probably be super expensive for an airline to furlough in October and ramp up pilot training for summer 21.

For people that work at the stations their hours will probably decline with the schedule.
 
alasizon
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:27 pm

32andBelow wrote:
For people that work at the stations their hours will probably decline with the schedule.


Over 90% of WN's station employees are FT - very few PTers and they are all being scheduled for their 40 hours still. In fact, many areas of WN are already running very lean and will plan to get even leaner as more people are given the early out and extended time off.

Not to mention, WN is being very aggressive adding additional capacity at every turn.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Posts: 5280
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:51 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
departedflights wrote:
smithbs wrote:

Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.


No, no... those are COMBINED numbers for long-term leaves AND exit packages. Most of those people will be returning at some point.


Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period


Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
joeblow10
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:02 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
departedflights wrote:

No, no... those are COMBINED numbers for long-term leaves AND exit packages. Most of those people will be returning at some point.


Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period


Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile

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