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xwb777
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The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:10 pm

In a post by Alex Macheras, on his instagram handle, the International Court of Justice is expected tomorrow to announce its final cersict in regards to the airspace restriction to Qatar registered aircraft over flying the UAE, Bahrain, Egypt and Saudia Arabia, thats in place since 2016.
The ICJ ruling will enforce ICAO to force its jurisdiction on the blockading countries and allow A7- registered jets to overly those countries.
Image
Source: @alexmacheras imstagram handle.


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enilria
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:49 pm

Likelihood that works?
 
xwb777
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Mon Jul 13, 2020 7:57 pm

enilria wrote:
Likelihood that works?


If there any chances for it to work, it would have worked years ago, when the dispute was still fresh, It would been easier to deal with.
 
AngelsDecay
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:18 pm

Alex who..!!??? (Is that a kid?)
"Well be thy one,
and wisdom too.
And grew, and joyed in my growth.
From a word to a word, I was lead to a Wyrd.
From a deed, to another deed."
 
CALMSP
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:49 pm

AngelsDecay wrote:
Alex who..!!??? (Is that a kid?)


a "journalist" who has inside connections with the Royal Family and inner circles of QR.
 
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:59 pm

How exactly the ruling be enforced?

Make no the difference. Icj is toothless.
 
Arion640
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:26 pm

CALMSP wrote:
AngelsDecay wrote:
Alex who..!!??? (Is that a kid?)


a "journalist" who has inside connections with the Royal Family and inner circles of QR.


Source? I know he’s pally with QR, but the royal family?
 
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calstanford
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:55 am

Who do you think QR belongs to?
 
tobsw
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:25 am

Does it really matter? As long as the information is accurate, do you actually care whether you work for X, Y or Z airline, get support from X, Y or Z airline, or whatever?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:56 pm

As expected ICJ ruled against Bahrain, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE confirming ICAO as the right body to judge in the dispute and ICAO initial finding that actions were unlawful can proceed to final verdict.

Summary of judgement:
https://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-rela ... -00-EN.pdf
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Opus99
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:00 pm

The question now becomes. Does it make a difference to the current situation or is this just noise?
 
Thenoflyzone
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:24 pm

Saudi Arabia has never signed the International Air services transit agreement. Bahrain, U.A.E and Egypt have. Saudi Arabia therefore has no legal obligation to let Qatar registered planes over its airspace if it doesn’t want to. The other 3 States have to abide by the agreement they signed all those years ago.

At least that’s the way I see it.

https://www.icao.int/secretariat/legal/ ... sit_EN.pdf
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
usflyer msp
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:30 pm

FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
How exactly the ruling be enforced?

Make no the difference. Icj is toothless.


Exactly. Nothing is going to change.
 
Toinou
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:36 am

usflyer msp wrote:
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:
How exactly the ruling be enforced?

Make no the difference. Icj is toothless.


Exactly. Nothing is going to change.

If I'm not mistaken, states have to agree for their dispute to be submitted to ICJ, which theoretically is giving them a responsibility to accept the verdict. But this means only that ICAO now has to judge on the matter. Whether they will submit to this second decision is another matter and I'm not much more optimistic that you are. The states involved (and that is including Qatar) seem to agree with international law mostly when it agrees with their decisions.
 
xwb777
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:50 am

The Qataris are seeing this as a win. They don’t really know that the ICJ can’t do a thing to the blockading countries.
 
hohd
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:08 pm

Some of this depends on the November US presidential election. If Trump loses, which at this point is looking likely, the new President Biden may put Saudi under pressure or at least not as supportive as Trump was. That in turn could force Saudi to relax the air blockade to patch up to new US President.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:06 pm

QR is seeking “at least $5 billion” in compensation for what the company describes as unlawful actions by Bahrain, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and UAE

“The Notices of Arbitration make clear that by imposing the measures against Qatar Airways, the blockading states have violated their obligations under the agreements, including by expropriating and failing to adequately protect and secure Qatar Airways’ investments, discriminating against Qatar Airways, and failing to provide fair and equitable treatment to the airline and its investments,” the company said.

https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... light-bans
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Kikko19
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:17 am

LAXintl wrote:
QR is seeking “at least $5 billion” in compensation for what the company describes as unlawful actions by Bahrain, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and UAE

“The Notices of Arbitration make clear that by imposing the measures against Qatar Airways, the blockading states have violated
their obligations under the agreements, including by expropriating and failing to adequately protect and secure Qatar Airways’ investments, discriminating against Qatar Airways, and failing to provide fair and equitable treatment to the airline and its investments,” the company said.


https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... light-bans


I wonder how will they enforce it after they win the case :)
 
SueD
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:37 am

Kikko19 wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
QR is seeking “at least $5 billion” in compensation for what the company describes as unlawful actions by Bahrain, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and UAE

“The Notices of Arbitration make clear that by imposing the measures against Qatar Airways, the blockading states have violated
their obligations under the agreements, including by expropriating and failing to adequately protect and secure Qatar Airways’ investments, discriminating against Qatar Airways, and failing to provide fair and equitable treatment to the airline and its investments,” the company said.


https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/ ... light-bans


I wonder how will they enforce it after they win the case :)


They could employ bailiffs in third countries such as the UK to seek recompense via asset seizure.

The UK system is rather friendly to the works of bailiffs and they have been successful in the past is such actions on behalf of foreign agents .
 
xwb777
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:52 am

I feel that Akbar AlBaker will be having a heart attack becuase of this issue.

This whole matter is a boycott rathar than a blockade. If the 4 countires do not want to have business with Qatar, this can’t be a blockade.


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Toinou
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:14 am

xwb777 wrote:
This whole matter is a boycott rathar than a blockade. If the 4 countires do not want to have business with Qatar, this can’t be a blockade.

Not allowing QR planes to land in those countries is a boycott.
Cutting supplies to a country is a blockade. (It's not all supplies but if I remember correctly, 80% of Qatar supplies were coming through Saudi Arabia (Qatar's only land border) so it's pretty close to it.)
So neither words is fully describing the situation: Qatar's is a bit too strong, yours is clearly not enough.

Not allowing overflights is the contentious matter here. On that precise matter, "blockade" is probably an excessive word but it's clearly a good PR choice and it's the one used by Qatari officials and media to describe the situation.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:44 am

Isn't Saudi Arabia cutting a canal to make Qatar an island ? Pretty unprecedented move...

Apparently that madness has not been started.
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lalib
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:59 am

If the judgement cannot be enforced against these countries what's options do the ICJ have?

Too far fetched for ICACO to enforce other Member States increase the the airspace charges that these 4 countries use to make a one off payment to Qatar. That would be great.

ICJs reputation is at stake rendering this a toothless judgment.
 
xwb777
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:05 pm

I once commented on Alex Macheras instagram post when he posted the news. I wrote to him that the ICJ can’t enforce the blockading countries to open up their airspace to QR and that Saudia Arabia is not a signatory country. The next day I found that he has deleted my comment and blocked me.


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Toinou
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:48 pm

lalib wrote:
ICJs reputation is at stake rendering this a toothless judgment.

As I mentioned earlier, for a case to be brought in front of ICJ, states that are part of the disputes need to agree to submit to this decision :
All contentious cases have been brought before the Court by means of an application instituting proceedings, irrespective of whether the Court’s jurisdiction was founded on a provision in a treaty or convention, declarations recognizing the Court’s jurisdiction as obligatory made by each of the parties to the dispute, or any other alleged form of consent.
Source: https://www.icj-cij.org/en/basis-of-jurisdiction

So the immediate problem is not that ICJ is toothless. It is that some states may not be truth to their word.

But the judgement is not going very far, it is not deciding on any concrete matter: it just states that ICAO is the competent body to rule on that aspect.
So the organization whose reputation is at stake is not ICJ, it's ICAO. (And to some extant that of states implicated in that dispute but I'm not sure they care that much about that as they see this as a purely political question.)
 
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Re: The Qatar blockade, ICJ and ICAO

Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:37 am

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