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Sdmccray1984
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767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:31 pm

I remember back in the early 2000s, DL regularly used wide body aircraft on short domestic routes. Even their daily short hops from ATL to JAX utilized the B767-300, MCO & FLL (B767-400, B777-200), MIA/PBI/TPA/RSW (B767-400). But the most intriguing to me was the LGA service from ATL on the B767-400. Given the numerous constraints at LGA, could those big birds take off with full payloads? Interesting...
 
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LotsaRunway
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:34 pm

Do some searches and you will find L1011s and DC10s have served LGA through the years. Pretty good for 7000' of runway.
 
brilondon
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:47 pm

Since fuel would likely be minimal considering the rules that govern LGA, 767-400s would be workable, especially on routes that warrant the capacity.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
ethernal
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:50 pm

Sdmccray1984 wrote:
I remember back in the early 2000s, DL regularly used wide body aircraft on short domestic routes. Even their daily short hops from ATL to JAX utilized the B767-300, MCO & FLL (B767-400, B777-200), MIA/PBI/TPA/RSW (B767-400). But the most intriguing to me was the LGA service from ATL on the B767-400. Given the numerous constraints at LGA, could those big birds take off with full payloads? Interesting...


Define full payloads. Could it take off at MTOW? Probably not without getting wet. Could it take off with full passengers and plenty of bags/cargo given the fact that the 160,000 pound capacity fuel tank was more than 4/5ths empty since ATL-LGA is a 750 statute mile route? Probably.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:53 pm

Sdmccray1984 wrote:
I remember back in the early 2000s, DL regularly used wide body aircraft on short domestic routes. Even their daily short hops from ATL to JAX utilized the B767-300, MCO & FLL (B767-400, B777-200), MIA/PBI/TPA/RSW (B767-400). But the most intriguing to me was the LGA service from ATL on the B767-400. Given the numerous constraints at LGA, could those big birds take off with full payloads? Interesting...


Don't forget, they were configured even heavier back in the day. The initial config of the 764s was domestic F, not lie-flat J.
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:02 pm

How about A300/A330/B777?
 
KFTG
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:04 pm

A300 was a regular at LGA. But the A330 and 777 have never visited.
 
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N62NA
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:11 pm

And just for the record, 707*, 720, 747, Convair 880/990 and DC-8 never did either.

* Passenger.
 
asuflyer
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:12 pm

The 764 is the largest aircraft that can operate out of LGA due to gate size restrictions. However the DL 764's have not visited in quite a few years. Up until last year AC was regularly sending the 763 on subs from YYZ.
 
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cathay747
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Sdmccray1984 wrote:
I remember back in the early 2000s, DL regularly used wide body aircraft on short domestic routes. Even their daily short hops from ATL to JAX utilized the B767-300, MCO & FLL (B767-400, B777-200), MIA/PBI/TPA/RSW (B767-400). But the most intriguing to me was the LGA service from ATL on the B767-400. Given the numerous constraints at LGA, could those big birds take off with full payloads? Interesting...


Don't forget, they were configured even heavier back in the day. The initial config of the 764s was domestic F, not lie-flat J.


True, but methinks the lie-flat "suites" each weigh considerably more than one domestic F seat, I should think the weight evens out to a large degree.
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FriscoHeavy
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:17 pm

Sdmccray1984 wrote:
I remember back in the early 2000s, DL regularly used wide body aircraft on short domestic routes. Even their daily short hops from ATL to JAX utilized the B767-300, MCO & FLL (B767-400, B777-200), MIA/PBI/TPA/RSW (B767-400). But the most intriguing to me was the LGA service from ATL on the B767-400. Given the numerous constraints at LGA, could those big birds take off with full payloads? Interesting...



Easily, because they were never at 'full payload'. It would need very little fuel to reach ATL, therefore, they'd never be at 'full payload'/MTOW. No issues whatsoever with a full passenger load, bags and a lot of cargo for the short hop.
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Polot
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:18 pm

asuflyer wrote:
The 764 is the largest aircraft that can operate out of LGA due to gate size restrictions. However the DL 764's have not visited in quite a few years. Up until last year AC was regularly sending the 763 on subs from YYZ.

It’s not just gates, The entire field really can’t handle aircraft with wingspans wider than the 764. That plane is already restricted to 10 kt on some taxiways (and banned from others along with all other LGA capable wide bodies) as a precaution.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:20 pm

LotsaRunway wrote:
Do some searches and you will find L1011s and DC10s have served LGA through the years. Pretty good for 7000' of runway.


Eastern, Delta, TWA, and American Airlines all operated wide body aircraft into LGA years ago. Eastern operated L1011s, as did DL and TW. American operated both the DC10 and the 767 (200). United also operated the 767-200 in the early days of the plane's type in their fleet. Later on, Delta flew the 767-300 (domestic) and the -300ER, as well as the -400. The 767-400 was originally ordered by Delta to replace L1011s on domestic flying. Well into the 1990s and 2000s, 757 were also common at LGA, across the DL, UA, AA fleets. EA also operated the 757 into LGA before it went bust.

The runway could handle these jets and having been on some of these flights, I can tell you it could be one hell of a ride, particularly on approach and landing, navigating the turns and adjustments that are a fixture of LGA approaches. The 757 takes off like a rocket so it felt even more powerful lifting off from LGA on one.
 
concordeforever
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:41 pm

One of my most memorable approaches was in a Delta TriStar from Cincinnati to La Guardia in October 1994. Was sat right near the back in economy, great flight, good service, loads of space, and then the approach low over houses turning one way and the other like it was being flown by a fighter pilot, brilliant!
 
Cointrin330
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:51 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
Do some searches and you will find L1011s and DC10s have served LGA through the years. Pretty good for 7000' of runway.


Eastern, Delta, TWA, and American Airlines all operated wide body aircraft into LGA years ago. Eastern operated L1011s, as did DL and TW. American operated both the DC10 and the 767 (200). United also operated the 767-200 in the early days of the plane's type in their fleet. Later on, Delta flew the 767-300 (domestic) and the -300ER, as well as the -400. The 767-400 was originally ordered by Delta to replace L1011s on domestic flying. Well into the 1990s and 2000s, 757 were also common at LGA, across the DL, UA, AA fleets. EA also operated the 757 into LGA before it went bust. The odd CO 757 occasionally ended up at LGA as well, mostly from IAH.

The runway could handle these jets and having been on some of these flights, I can tell you it could be one hell of a ride, particularly on approach and landing, navigating the turns and adjustments that are a fixture of LGA approaches. The 757 takes off like a rocket so it felt even more powerful lifting off from LGA on one.
 
UA444
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:31 pm

CO and DL wanted a DC-10 and L-1011 replacement that could serve LGA. They got one, and stopped using it domestically within a decade.

Those design constraints I believe hurt the 764 from ever being a sales success. If it had the range of the 763, it would’ve sold more.
 
TWFlyGuy
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:31 pm

I remember in the 80's & 90's AA had a DC-10 routed LGA-RDU-MCO-RDU-LGA

Keep in mind one of DLs design requirements was to be able to be able to use it in LGA. I believe (I'm sure you can find one of the many threads on it) but that this requirement sort of stunted sales because it hurt performance on other routes. I could be wrong but I thought I had seen that and heard that.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:52 pm

UA444 wrote:
CO and DL wanted a DC-10 and L-1011 replacement that could serve LGA. They got one, and stopped using it domestically within a decade.

Those design constraints I believe hurt the 764 from ever being a sales success. If it had the range of the 763, it would’ve sold more.


And yet CO never operated a 764 in scheduled service at LGA. CO really wasn't looking for a DC10 replacement for LGA at all. They just needed a plane bigger than the 762 and smaller than the 777. The 764 was bought for long haul at CO. It was DL that drove the 764 design and functionality, principally.
 
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:03 pm

KFTG wrote:
A300 was a regular at LGA. But the A330 and 777 have never visited.


But I seem to remember that Eastern couldn't operate the A300 at LGA when it was new (a slap in the face since it intended to use it on the Air Shuttle). Something about the narrow track of the main landing gear creating too small a footprint on the Flushing Bay runway extensions. I'm not sure how that was worked out.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:16 pm

brilondon wrote:
Since fuel would likely be minimal considering the rules that govern LGA, 767-400s would be workable, especially on routes that warrant the capacity.

IF you can find the space to park them....
Not as much of a concern now, as it would have been 4 months ago.
 
Max Q
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:30 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
CO and DL wanted a DC-10 and L-1011 replacement that could serve LGA. They got one, and stopped using it domestically within a decade.

Those design constraints I believe hurt the 764 from ever being a sales success. If it had the range of the 763, it would’ve sold more.


And yet CO never operated a 764 in scheduled service at LGA. CO really wasn't looking for a DC10 replacement for LGA at all. They just needed a plane bigger than the 762 and smaller than the 777. The 764 was bought for long haul at CO. It was DL that drove the 764 design and functionality, principally.



The 764 was Continental’s DC10 replacement and a fine one with outstanding economics


Gate space was a consideration not only at LGA but EWR as well which was another reason why the A332 with its much larger wingspan was rejected.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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FSDan
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:55 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Well into the 1990s and 2000s, 757 were also common at LGA, across the DL, UA, AA fleets.


Even well into the 2010s the 757 remained common at LGA. DL flew mostly 757s on the ATL-LGA route until a few years ago when it went all 320/321. AA flew them on LGA-MIA until whenever the number of 757s was drastically reduced out of MIA in favor of more 738s and 7M8s.
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N649DL
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:43 pm

asuflyer wrote:
The 764 is the largest aircraft that can operate out of LGA due to gate size restrictions. However the DL 764's have not visited in quite a few years. Up until last year AC was regularly sending the 763 on subs from YYZ.


Back in the day (mid-2000s) UA did fly domestic 763s as subs on LGA-DEN on occasion as well.
 
catiii
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:21 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
brilondon wrote:
Since fuel would likely be minimal considering the rules that govern LGA, 767-400s would be workable, especially on routes that warrant the capacity.

IF you can find the space to park them....
Not as much of a concern now, as it would have been 4 months ago.


They parked just fine at the old Delta terminal for years. Would park just fine there now too.
 
brilondon
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:33 pm

N649DL wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
The 764 is the largest aircraft that can operate out of LGA due to gate size restrictions. However the DL 764's have not visited in quite a few years. Up until last year AC was regularly sending the 763 on subs from YYZ.


Back in the day (mid-2000s) UA did fly domestic 763s as subs on LGA-DEN on occasion as well.

I didn't know that was allowed out of LGA.
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Cointrin330
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:11 pm

Max Q wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
UA444 wrote:
CO and DL wanted a DC-10 and L-1011 replacement that could serve LGA. They got one, and stopped using it domestically within a decade.

Those design constraints I believe hurt the 764 from ever being a sales success. If it had the range of the 763, it would’ve sold more.


And yet CO never operated a 764 in scheduled service at LGA. CO really wasn't looking for a DC10 replacement for LGA at all. They just needed a plane bigger than the 762 and smaller than the 777. The 764 was bought for long haul at CO. It was DL that drove the 764 design and functionality, principally.



The 764 was Continental’s DC

Indeed, the 764 was CO's DC10 replacement but primarily for long haul flights to Europe, EWR-HNL, some deep South America (it operated EWR-GRU), and not a DC10 replacement for domestic or short haul flights. CO did fly the 764 between EWR and SJU, SDQ, and between hubs, principally IAH and EWR, and that was between TATL missions and to reposition aircraft. The 764 at DL on the other hand was initially ordered as an L1011 replacement for domestic trunk routes. That's the key difference. CO never had use for the 764 at LGA, except for irregular ops or subs. The focus for CO was EWR. Gate space was not really an issue at LGA for where CO operated (Concourse A). They could have fit a 764 there if they needed to, but it just wasn't part of the operational plan.
 
Silverstreak
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:12 pm

In the early 70s, I was a steward with a company based at Love Field in Dallas. We had 2 Grumman G-2s and a G-1, plus 2 Jetstars. I remember seeing at Shreveport, La. and on occasion at Savannah, Ga. Delta DC-8-63s. Shreveport could have been a military charter (?) and we were told in Savannah a Series 63 was used to go to Atlanta. Still hard to believe.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:18 pm

Used to see when driving by Delta L-1011 tails parked at LGA all the time, especially in the 80s.
 
N649DL
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:25 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

And yet CO never operated a 764 in scheduled service at LGA. CO really wasn't looking for a DC10 replacement for LGA at all. They just needed a plane bigger than the 762 and smaller than the 777. The 764 was bought for long haul at CO. It was DL that drove the 764 design and functionality, principally.



The 764 was Continental’s DC

Indeed, the 764 was CO's DC10 replacement but primarily for long haul flights to Europe, EWR-HNL, some deep South America (it operated EWR-GRU), and not a DC10 replacement for domestic or short haul flights. CO did fly the 764 between EWR and SJU, SDQ, and between hubs, principally IAH and EWR, and that was between TATL missions and to reposition aircraft. The 764 at DL on the other hand was initially ordered as an L1011 replacement for domestic trunk routes. That's the key difference. CO never had use for the 764 at LGA, except for irregular ops or subs. The focus for CO was EWR. Gate space was not really an issue at LGA for where CO operated (Concourse A). They could have fit a 764 there if they needed to, but it just wasn't part of the operational plan.


I think the immediate attempt with regards to CO was to use the 764s for International Expansion overall. CO also had the benefit of having a refurbished fleet of DC-10-30s before 9/11 to use as well (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think CO's D10 fleet was fully phased out because of 9/11.)

I did happen to fly a CO 762 on EWR-LAX back in 2004. They were regularly scheduled on the route back then as well as LAX-IAH. Definitely a nice but strange ride with the looped PTVs and 777-Style overhead bins. One of my biggest regrets is not being able to fly AA's 767 on EWR-LAX as they were on and off scheduled through even 2009 believe it or not.

brilondon wrote:
N649DL wrote:
asuflyer wrote:
The 764 is the largest aircraft that can operate out of LGA due to gate size restrictions. However the DL 764's have not visited in quite a few years. Up until last year AC was regularly sending the 763 on subs from YYZ.


Back in the day (mid-2000s) UA did fly domestic 763s as subs on LGA-DEN on occasion as well.

I didn't know that was allowed out of LGA.


There are several photos in the database from like 2007 if you want to look it up. It was rare but allowed.
 
deltairlines
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:31 pm

cathay747 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Sdmccray1984 wrote:
I remember back in the early 2000s, DL regularly used wide body aircraft on short domestic routes. Even their daily short hops from ATL to JAX utilized the B767-300, MCO & FLL (B767-400, B777-200), MIA/PBI/TPA/RSW (B767-400). But the most intriguing to me was the LGA service from ATL on the B767-400. Given the numerous constraints at LGA, could those big birds take off with full payloads? Interesting...


Don't forget, they were configured even heavier back in the day. The initial config of the 764s was domestic F, not lie-flat J.


True, but methinks the lie-flat "suites" each weigh considerably more than one domestic F seat, I should think the weight evens out to a large degree.


It would be close. The domestic 764s had a pretty significant capacity - they held 287 passengers in a F36Y251 configuration - they even had a mini-Y cabin of 4-5 rows right in front of the second set of doors. That's 51 more seats than the Old J40 setup or (I think) 63 more than the new J34 (but with Premium Select).

As for gates, there were only a handful of gates at Terminal D that could take widebodies. I know what is currently D2 can; I believe D4 can as well. Not sure if any gates in Terminal C can handle them. That being said, in the terminal redesign, the largest plane a stand can handle is a 757. No real point in sending in a widebody now; the 757-300 has the same net capacity as a 767-400 (and more than a 767-300 in the J26 configuration). With the hub now at LGA, there's really no need to be running as high capacity equipment on LGA-ATL; back when it was widebodies, the Delta operation at LGA was a fraction the size that it is today - it was the Shuttle to BOS/DCA, hub flights to ATL/CVG/DFW and plenty of Florida, plus only a handful of regional operations around the Northeast. Pre-merger, Delta only had six gates in Terminal D, with Northwest having the four gates in the Northwest corner of the terminal.
 
alpine1989
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:32 pm

Loved seeing the long body ATA B757-300 at LGA (and DCA, MDW).
 
MIflyer12
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:36 pm

cathay747 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Sdmccray1984 wrote:
I remember back in the early 2000s, DL regularly used wide body aircraft on short domestic routes. Even their daily short hops from ATL to JAX utilized the B767-300, MCO & FLL (B767-400, B777-200), MIA/PBI/TPA/RSW (B767-400). But the most intriguing to me was the LGA service from ATL on the B767-400. Given the numerous constraints at LGA, could those big birds take off with full payloads? Interesting...


Don't forget, they were configured even heavier back in the day. The initial config of the 764s was domestic F, not lie-flat J.


True, but methinks the lie-flat "suites" each weigh considerably more than one domestic F seat, I should think the weight evens out to a large degree.


I'm not talking weight of empty seats, where 1 suite weighs 4x a coach seat. Occupied seats, please. A loaded plane is heavier in the domestic F config - the extra passenger count assures it.
 
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dennypayne
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:38 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
The runway could handle these jets and having been on some of these flights, I can tell you it could be one hell of a ride, particularly on approach and landing, navigating the turns and adjustments that are a fixture of LGA approaches.


My stepdad was a DL 767 captain and his word for landing the -400 at LGA was "sporting."
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:58 pm

MO11 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
A300 was a regular at LGA. But the A330 and 777 have never visited.


But I seem to remember that Eastern couldn't operate the A300 at LGA when it was new (a slap in the face since it intended to use it on the Air Shuttle). Something about the narrow track of the main landing gear creating too small a footprint on the Flushing Bay runway extensions. I'm not sure how that was worked out.


That was DCA not LGA that EA couldnt fly the AB3 into on the shuttle because of pier loadings. There were a few taxiways off limits at LGA but those were the same as for the L1011/DC10 ops which were there years earlier.

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zrs70
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:09 pm

Not only could the DC10's and L1011's operate out of LGA.... If I recall correctly, they were specifically designed with LGA ops in mind.
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aeromoe
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:22 pm

Silverstreak wrote:
... Delta DC-8-63s.


Definitely hard to believe since DL didn't operate -63s....they were 61s. Eastern on the other hand had both -61s and -63s.
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Insertnamehere
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:34 pm

Imagine riding on a 764 doing the Expressway visual 31? It's already enough of a sight when the Trump 757 does it let alone an even bigger 764.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:41 pm

N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Max Q wrote:



The 764 was Continental’s DC

Indeed, the 764 was CO's DC10 replacement but primarily for long haul flights to Europe, EWR-HNL, some deep South America (it operated EWR-GRU), and not a DC10 replacement for domestic or short haul flights. CO did fly the 764 between EWR and SJU, SDQ, and between hubs, principally IAH and EWR, and that was between TATL missions and to reposition aircraft. The 764 at DL on the other hand was initially ordered as an L1011 replacement for domestic trunk routes. That's the key difference. CO never had use for the 764 at LGA, except for irregular ops or subs. The focus for CO was EWR. Gate space was not really an issue at LGA for where CO operated (Concourse A). They could have fit a 764 there if they needed to, but it just wasn't part of the operational plan.


I think the immediate attempt with regards to CO was to use the 764s for International Expansion overall. CO also had the benefit of having a refurbished fleet of DC-10-30s before 9/11 to use as well (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think CO's D10 fleet was fully phased out because of 9/11.)

I did happen to fly a CO 762 on EWR-LAX back in 2004. They were regularly scheduled on the route back then as well as LAX-IAH. Definitely a nice but strange ride with the looped PTVs and 777-Style overhead bins. One of my biggest regrets is not being able to fly AA's 767 on EWR-LAX as they were on and off scheduled through even 2009 believe it or not.

brilondon wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Back in the day (mid-2000s) UA did fly domestic 763s as subs on LGA-DEN on occasion as well.

I didn't know that was allowed out of LGA.


There are several photos in the database from like 2007 if you want to look it up. It was rare but allowed.


Yes, I think CO phased out the DC10s in the aftermath of 9/11. CO's new ordered wide bodies (777-200ER, 767-400ER, 767-200ER) began arriving in 1998 and the last of the 764's arrived in 2002 (764's were delivered relatively quickly). There was a top up 772 order later (leased or ordered, I am not sure). The fleet went from 16 frames to 20. Maybe 21.
 
Jo8338
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 4:27 am

Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:21 am

AA sent the 763 from ORD - LGA well into the 2010’s as recovery flights the day after a storm. I remember my then fiancé carrying her wedding dress on a 763 back in 2009. The gate agent blocked a middle seat for the dress to hang over.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1991
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:50 am

Off topic, but 4 of CO's 767-400s were initially assigned to Micronesia services, and operated a few routes including GUM-HNL, GUM-NRT, and I think occasionally operated EWR-HNL. They were in a slightly different configuration but the fleet was harmonized before the merger, as I recall.
 
N649DL
Posts: 964
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:18 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:


The 764 was Continental’s DC

Indeed, the 764 was CO's DC10 replacement but primarily for long haul flights to Europe, EWR-HNL, some deep South America (it operated EWR-GRU), and not a DC10 replacement for domestic or short haul flights. CO did fly the 764 between EWR and SJU, SDQ, and between hubs, principally IAH and EWR, and that was between TATL missions and to reposition aircraft. The 764 at DL on the other hand was initially ordered as an L1011 replacement for domestic trunk routes. That's the key difference. CO never had use for the 764 at LGA, except for irregular ops or subs. The focus for CO was EWR. Gate space was not really an issue at LGA for where CO operated (Concourse A). They could have fit a 764 there if they needed to, but it just wasn't part of the operational plan.


I think the immediate attempt with regards to CO was to use the 764s for International Expansion overall. CO also had the benefit of having a refurbished fleet of DC-10-30s before 9/11 to use as well (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think CO's D10 fleet was fully phased out because of 9/11.)

I did happen to fly a CO 762 on EWR-LAX back in 2004. They were regularly scheduled on the route back then as well as LAX-IAH. Definitely a nice but strange ride with the looped PTVs and 777-Style overhead bins. One of my biggest regrets is not being able to fly AA's 767 on EWR-LAX as they were on and off scheduled through even 2009 believe it or not.

brilondon wrote:
I didn't know that was allowed out of LGA.


There are several photos in the database from like 2007 if you want to look it up. It was rare but allowed.


Yes, I think CO phased out the DC10s in the aftermath of 9/11. CO's new ordered wide bodies (777-200ER, 767-400ER, 767-200ER) began arriving in 1998 and the last of the 764's arrived in 2002 (764's were delivered relatively quickly). There was a top up 772 order later (leased or ordered, I am not sure). The fleet went from 16 frames to 20. Maybe 21.


I actually think CO converted several widebodies to additional 737s because they straight up couldn't afford them or couldn't allocate them as needed. As a result, legacy CO really relied on legacy UA's fleet to help out the network when they combined out of EWR/IAH.

LGA rarely ever saw UA widebody metal by the 2000s (unless as a sub), however 757s were basically daily to ORD and DEN until the middle of the last decade.
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 4749
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:37 am

Yeah air Canada has run 767-300s many times to LGA. Last summer even I think pretty recently they were on YYZ-LGA. Granted Toronto is alot less miles than Atlanta from NY they really didn't need much fuel, but 767s have been scheduled to LGA pretty recently even.

Iirc they were a spare widebody and would get pulled sometimes when they needed a widebody because a plane had a technical issue. NYC is such a short hop that the plane can be back in Toronto really quickly.
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 895
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:39 am

Wasn't the aircraft in Home Alone 2 a widebody and it landed at La Guardia?
 
mikedelta720
Posts: 19
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:02 am

Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:53 am

I remember in my times at Vaughn College when DL used to regularly send 757s to LGA from ATL, DTW or MSP and UA sending them from DEN until around 2015. UA even had an early morning flight to DEN on a 753 for a short time. Those were good days. Too bad DL only uses A321s now.

With the new terminal design, I wonder if the new gates will also be able to handle birds as big as the 763 or 764. It would be cool.
 
reltney
Posts: 635
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:09 am

N62NA wrote:
And just for the record, 707*, 720, 747, Convair 880/990 and DC-8 never did either.

* Passenger.


I have been into LGA in an Delta 880 and DC-8-55 many times.
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7080
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Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:33 am

mikedelta720 wrote:
I remember in my times at Vaughn College when DL used to regularly send 757s to LGA from ATL, DTW or MSP and UA sending them from DEN until around 2015. UA even had an early morning flight to DEN on a 753 for a short time. Those were good days. Too bad DL only uses A321s now.

With the new terminal design, I wonder if the new gates will also be able to handle birds as big as the 763 or 764. It would be cool.


New Delta terminal only supports up to the 757.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1991
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:43 am

N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

I think the immediate attempt with regards to CO was to use the 764s for International Expansion overall. CO also had the benefit of having a refurbished fleet of DC-10-30s before 9/11 to use as well (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think CO's D10 fleet was fully phased out because of 9/11.)

I did happen to fly a CO 762 on EWR-LAX back in 2004. They were regularly scheduled on the route back then as well as LAX-IAH. Definitely a nice but strange ride with the looped PTVs and 777-Style overhead bins. One of my biggest regrets is not being able to fly AA's 767 on EWR-LAX as they were on and off scheduled through even 2009 believe it or not.



There are several photos in the database from like 2007 if you want to look it up. It was rare but allowed.


Yes, I think CO phased out the DC10s in the aftermath of 9/11. CO's new ordered wide bodies (777-200ER, 767-400ER, 767-200ER) began arriving in 1998 and the last of the 764's arrived in 2002 (764's were delivered relatively quickly). There was a top up 772 order later (leased or ordered, I am not sure). The fleet went from 16 frames to 20. Maybe 21.


I actually think CO converted several widebodies to additional 737s because they straight up couldn't afford them or couldn't allocate them as needed. As a result, legacy CO really relied on legacy UA's fleet to help out the network when they combined out of EWR/IAH.

LGA rarely ever saw UA widebody metal by the 2000s (unless as a sub), however 757s were basically daily to ORD and DEN until the middle of the last decade.


Continental had a relatively small wide body fleet and leveraged the narrow body fleet to expand. The 777/767 fleet consisted of 21 772s, 16 764s, and 10 762s at the merger. That is all. I recall top up 737 orders long before the merger, but I am not sure if any were substitutions for outstanding wide body orders. The 777/767 and 757 fleets at CO had a higher utilization level when compared to other US airlines. As the merger took shape and cross fleeting began between UA and CO, the combined airline suffered operational issues stemming from a variety of issues. First, UA deferred non-essential maintenance as a matter of practice to save money. This was very evident with the 747s, which at one point in 2013 or 2014 were entirely repositioned to SFO for a time so maintenance could be performed in one place. The dispatch reliability of the 747 did improve after these measures were taken but still accounted for a significant number of UA delayed flights. Same with the 767 at UA.

As for LGA, yes, UA rarely if ever flew a wide body into the airport by the 2000s unless it was due to subs or irregular operations. 757s were still a fixture on ORD and DEN, and for a brief time post-merger, there was one operating LGA-CLE but it did not last very long. CO occasionally operated a 757 on IAH-LGA before the merger, but it was very rare. For the most part, CO's operation at LGA was the 737 and the ERJ (stretching back to the early 1990s, it was MD80, DC9, 732, 733, and later 735, 737-700, 738).
Last edited by Cointrin330 on Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
twaconnie
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:43 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
LotsaRunway wrote:
Do some searches and you will find L1011s and DC10s have served LGA through the years. Pretty good for 7000' of runway.


Eastern, Delta, TWA, and American Airlines all operated wide body aircraft into LGA years ago. Eastern operated L1011s, as did DL and TW. American operated both the DC10 and the 767 (200). United also operated the 767-200 in the early days of the plane's type in their fleet. Later on, Delta flew the 767-300 (domestic) and the -300ER, as well as the -400. The 767-400 was originally ordered by Delta to replace L1011s on domestic flying. Well into the 1990s and 2000s, 757 were also common at LGA, across the DL, UA, AA fleets. EA also operated the 757 into LGA before it went bust.

The runway could handle these jets and having been on some of these flights, I can tell you it could be one hell of a ride, particularly on approach and landing, navigating the turns and adjustments that are a fixture of LGA approaches. The 757 takes off like a rocket so it felt even more powerful lifting off from LGA on one.





The one airline you didn't mention was National airlines they had 10 DC-10 daily flights to Florida.
2X PBI
4XFLL
4XMIA
 
twaconnie
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:18 pm

Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:58 am

deltairlines wrote:
mikedelta720 wrote:
I remember in my times at Vaughn College when DL used to regularly send 757s to LGA from ATL, DTW or MSP and UA sending them from DEN until around 2015. UA even had an early morning flight to DEN on a 753 for a short time. Those were good days. Too bad DL only uses A321s now.

With the new terminal design, I wonder if the new gates will also be able to handle birds as big as the 763 or 764. It would be cool.


New Delta terminal only supports up to the 757.


Just wondering where did you find this info on Delta's new terminal?
 
N649DL
Posts: 964
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Re: 767-400s at LaGuardia

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:34 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

Yes, I think CO phased out the DC10s in the aftermath of 9/11. CO's new ordered wide bodies (777-200ER, 767-400ER, 767-200ER) began arriving in 1998 and the last of the 764's arrived in 2002 (764's were delivered relatively quickly). There was a top up 772 order later (leased or ordered, I am not sure). The fleet went from 16 frames to 20. Maybe 21.


I actually think CO converted several widebodies to additional 737s because they straight up couldn't afford them or couldn't allocate them as needed. As a result, legacy CO really relied on legacy UA's fleet to help out the network when they combined out of EWR/IAH.

LGA rarely ever saw UA widebody metal by the 2000s (unless as a sub), however 757s were basically daily to ORD and DEN until the middle of the last decade.


Continental had a relatively small wide body fleet and leveraged the narrow body fleet to expand. The 777/767 fleet consisted of 21 772s, 16 764s, and 10 762s at the merger. That is all. I recall top up 737 orders long before the merger, but I am not sure if any were substitutions for outstanding wide body orders. The 777/767 and 757 fleets at CO had a higher utilization level when compared to other US airlines. As the merger took shape and cross fleeting began between UA and CO, the combined airline suffered operational issues stemming from a variety of issues. First, UA deferred non-essential maintenance as a matter of practice to save money. This was very evident with the 747s, which at one point in 2013 or 2014 were entirely repositioned to SFO for a time so maintenance could be performed in one place. The dispatch reliability of the 747 did improve after these measures were taken but still accounted for a significant number of UA delayed flights. Same with the 767 at UA.

As for LGA, yes, UA rarely if ever flew a wide body into the airport by the 2000s unless it was due to subs or irregular operations. 757s were still a fixture on ORD and DEN, and for a brief time post-merger, there was one operating LGA-CLE but it did not last very long. CO occasionally operated a 757 on IAH-LGA before the merger, but it was very rare. For the most part, CO's operation at LGA was the 737 and the ERJ (stretching back to the early 1990s, it was MD80, DC9, 732, 733, and later 735, 737-700, 738).


That's correct, forgot about that. Once UA and CO combined and started cross-fleeting sUA 757s were on both LGA-CLE and LGA-IAH (ex-CO routes) and actually rather consistently for a few years. I think at one time LGA-IAH was mostly flown with a majority of sUA 757s instead of sCO 737 (briefly.) UA was also hellbent on having EWR be acquainted early on with the sUA 763 in 2012 & initially had severe maintenance issues on the 3-class variants at the airport (UA didn't stock EWR with replacement parts when they broke down to cut costs).

As for CO's widebody fleet, I think there were planes to keep the D10 around into the early 2000s to expand the network. For instance HNL was quickly replaced with 764 after they retired the D10 as they really had no choice to fly much else. CO was flying 757 across the pond out of EWR pre-9/11 but not nearly as much as in the mid-late 2000s. For instance the majority of CO's TATL at EWR routes in 2000 were on D10s and quite a few routes were downgraded to 757 when they quickly retired the D10 (EWR-MAN being one of them).

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