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rmoore7734
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Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:58 pm

Looks like the SJ30x (2,500 nm range) could do the job based on interactive range map https://www.syberjet.com/tools/range-map from ACV airport for example.
The SJ30x is still in development at this time.

Question, could the highly modified Citation S/II with the Williams FJ44 engine & auxiliary fuel tank with winglets get the job done as well or any other existing SP jet ?

Here is a picture of the beast here https://www.airliners.net/photo/Untitle ... II/1299889
 
zuckie13
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:05 pm

The problem is with a couple of their assumptions here:

"Zero wind and ISA temperatures are assumed" - good luck getting zero wind - you'll likely have a head wind getting out there.
"Extended over water flights may require additional equipment that may reduce the range of the aircraft." - in other words - if you have what you need to fly from mainland to Hawaii, you wont' make it to Hawaii - not to mention probably the extra fuel you will need above their assumptions.

Probably going to be a close but not quite kind of scenario - especially if you are carrying passengers.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:06 pm

Unfortunately, with required diversion margins, a bit more range us required.

Lightsaber
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:30 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Unfortunately, with required diversion margins, a bit more range is required.

Lightsaber


Thx for reply, any idea of bare minimum range requirements for diversion margins ?
 
barney captain
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:30 pm

To give yourself a fighting chance, you would need to depart from somewhere closer than ACV......OAK for example.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:34 pm

barney captain wrote:
To give yourself a fighting chance, you would need to depart from somewhere closer than ACV......OAK for example.


Looks like difference is 10 miles acv to Ito 2,335 mi vs 2325 from oak.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:47 pm

barney captain wrote:
To give yourself a fighting chance, you would need to depart from somewhere closer than ACV......OAK for example.

Cold bay. Or adak
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:55 pm

You’ll also have to factor in fuel for ETP diversions at an acceptable flight level depressurised. The best answer is to choose F100. Or, pack on a lot of extra oxygen to divert at something like F240 or below. Doubtful any early Citation could do it. You’d need to be able to fly about 1200nm plus reserves from the mid-point at F100. Its fairly common to have a -90 knot wind factor, too.
 
barney captain
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:58 pm

rmoore7734 wrote:
barney captain wrote:
To give yourself a fighting chance, you would need to depart from somewhere closer than ACV......OAK for example.


Looks like difference is 10 miles acv to Ito 2,335 mi vs 2325 from oak.


Ah, my bad, I interpreted ACV as VCV......need more coffee.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:00 pm

32andBelow wrote:
barney captain wrote:
To give yourself a fighting chance, you would need to depart from somewhere closer than ACV......OAK for example.

Cold bay. Or adak


Adak to lih is 1964 nm or 2261 Miles

Cold bay to lih Is 2001 nm or 2302.71 miles

I picked Lihue because it would be closest to Hawaii.
Perhaps headwinds could be avoided going this route with adak coming in closest.
 
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:22 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You’ll also have to factor in fuel for ETP diversions at an acceptable flight level depressurised. The best answer is to choose F100. Or, pack on a lot of extra oxygen to divert at something like F240 or below. Doubtful any early Citation could do it. You’d need to be able to fly about 1200nm plus reserves from the mid-point at F100. Its fairly common to have a -90 knot wind factor, too.


I did happen upon this https://www.guardianjet.com/hal/userfil ... 11_SII.pdf

On page 3 for this super s/II it says unique 2700 nm range perhaps this could do it say with no passengers ?
 
Max Q
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:56 pm

Just barely making it is not a plan..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:03 pm

Max Q wrote:
Just barely making it is not a plan..


Understand but this one looks like it does not have winglets and if it did perhaps another 100 plus nm could be achieved. Medivac Learjet 36a have 2800 nm range and I heard they do California to Hawaii runs sometimes
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:40 pm

rmoore7734 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Just barely making it is not a plan..


Understand but this one looks like it does not have winglets and if it did perhaps another 100 plus nm could be achieved. Medivac Learjet 36a have 2800 nm range and I heard they do California to Hawaii runs sometimes


Perhaps, but I’d like to see how big a “wet” footprint they have. Even a 3,100nm CL300 has days where it’s challenged to not have a wet footprint without raising the divert level to F130.

Today, a F400/430 plan has -18 winds (AD ACV-PHTO is 2417) and essentially zero component on a F100, so possible. Wouldn’t plan on it.
 
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:53 pm

:lol:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
[quote="rmoore7734"

Perhaps, but I’d like to see how big a “wet” footprint they have. Even a 3,100nm CL300 has days where it’s challenged to not have a wet footprint without raising the divert level to F130.

Today, a F400/430 plan has -18 winds (AD ACV-PHTO is 2417) and essentially zero component on a F100, so possible. Wouldn’t plan on it.


Thanks, wish I understood the “technicals” as well as you but if the super s-II was flown single-pilot you could strap a nice size oxygen tank in the empty co-pilot seat in event of depressurization lol.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:48 am

Max Q wrote:
Just barely making it is not a plan..

Ask the Cirrus Driver in the widespread BRS parachute video about that. And he had a bladder added.
 
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:50 am

rmoore7734 wrote:
:lol:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
[quote="rmoore7734"

Perhaps, but I’d like to see how big a “wet” footprint they have. Even a 3,100nm CL300 has days where it’s challenged to not have a wet footprint without raising the divert level to F130.

Today, a F400/430 plan has -18 winds (AD ACV-PHTO is 2417) and essentially zero component on a F100, so possible. Wouldn’t plan on it.


Thanks, wish I understood the “technicals” as well as you but if the super s-II was flown single-pilot you could strap a nice size oxygen tank in the empty co-pilot seat in event of depressurization lol.

Pack the seats away, Send them via FedEx, and add a couple of bladders.
 
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:07 pm

pp
rmoore7734 wrote:
:lol:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
[quote="rmoore7734"

Perhaps, but I’d like to see how big a “wet” footprint they have. Even a 3,100nm CL300 has days where it’s challenged to not have a wet footprint without raising the divert level to F130.

Today, a F400/430 plan has -18 winds (AD ACV-PHTO is 2417) and essentially zero component on a F100, so possible. Wouldn’t plan on it.


Thanks, wish I understood the “technicals” as well as you but if the super s-II was flown single-pilot you could strap a nice size oxygen tank in the empty co-pilot seat in event of depressurization lol.


So, how about any pax?
 
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:06 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
[s]pp[/s [quote="GalaxyFlyer"

So, how about any pax?
[/quote][/quote]

I was thinking pilot only like your own personal jet not hauling anyone else.
 
nws2002
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:21 pm

rmoore7734 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Just barely making it is not a plan..


Understand but this one looks like it does not have winglets and if it did perhaps another 100 plus nm could be achieved. Medivac Learjet 36a have 2800 nm range and I heard they do California to Hawaii runs sometimes


A Lear 36 will barely (just barely and highly dependent on configuration and specific aircraft weights) make it if you lose an engine or have a pressurization issue at the equal time point (ETP). Remember there are zero diversion points between the mainland and Hawaii, so if something happens you have to be able to turn around and come back or continue on. It is way more than just being able to carry enough fuel to make it across.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:30 pm

Do these jets fall under ETOPS requirements? And can you do single pilot ETOPS?
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Braniff747SP
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:34 pm

sixtyseven wrote:
Do these jets fall under ETOPS requirements? And can you do single pilot ETOPS?


To the best of my knowledge, ETOPS only applies to 121 ops. The rule doesn't apply to private jets.
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32andBelow
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:35 pm

Braniff747SP wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
Do these jets fall under ETOPS requirements? And can you do single pilot ETOPS?


To the best of my knowledge, ETOPS only applies to 121 ops. The rule doesn't apply to private jets.

You do wonder how wise such a flight would be. A single pilot have a medical event might have a chance with a quick diversion but 5 hours over the ocean would be tough.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:23 pm

Braniff747SP wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
Do these jets fall under ETOPS requirements? And can you do single pilot ETOPS?


To the best of my knowledge, ETOPS only applies to 121 ops. The rule doesn't apply to private jets.



ETOPS applies to 135 as well.

The sovereign is the smallest "realistic" Hawaii airplane. Some weird stuff might squeeze out there on perfect days, but the 680 is widely regarded as the smallest practical. It has a still air range of 3200nm.

The biggest issue is a depressurization at the ETP. Descend to 10,000ft and make land.
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PA110
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:10 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
It has a still air range of 3200nm.


That might work for the return journey, but Mainland USA to Hawaii is usually bucking headwinds. In the winter time, significant enough to weight-restrict commercial some flights.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:10 pm

Varsity1 wrote:

The sovereign is the smallest "realistic" Hawaii airplane. Some weird stuff might squeeze out there on perfect days, but the 680 is widely regarded as the smallest practical. It has a still air range of 3200nm.

The biggest issue is a depressurization at the ETP. Descend to 10,000ft and make land.
[/quote]


Looks like a citation latitude with 2850 nm range with 5 passengers & 2 pilots did a California to Hawaii run in 2015

https://txtav.com/en/newsroom/2015/07/c ... al-flights
 
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:29 pm

When I play with range map For the latitude with same 5 pax 2 pilots you get 2650 nm

https://txtav.com/en/range-map
 
Varsity1
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:47 pm

rmoore7734 wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:

The sovereign is the smallest "realistic" Hawaii airplane. Some weird stuff might squeeze out there on perfect days, but the 680 is widely regarded as the smallest practical. It has a still air range of 3200nm.

The biggest issue is a depressurization at the ETP. Descend to 10,000ft and make land.



Looks like a citation latitude with 2850 nm range with 5 passengers & 2 pilots did a California to Hawaii run in 2015

https://txtav.com/en/newsroom/2015/07/c ... al-flights[/quote]

Like I said, sometimes smaller stuff will squeeze out there. I have heard of CJ-3's ferried out there from Socal before. The 680 can do it practically, though still limited or unable on the worst days.
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:53 pm

Yes and it was flown in July before winter headwind season
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:01 am

Varsity1 wrote:
Braniff747SP wrote:
sixtyseven wrote:
Do these jets fall under ETOPS requirements? And can you do single pilot ETOPS?


To the best of my knowledge, ETOPS only applies to 121 ops. The rule doesn't apply to private jets.



ETOPS applies to 135 as well.

The sovereign is the smallest "realistic" Hawaii airplane. Some weird stuff might squeeze out there on perfect days, but the 680 is widely regarded as the smallest practical. It has a still air range of 3200nm.

The biggest issue is a depressurization at the ETP. Descend to 10,000ft and make land.


So you can do single pilot ETOPS? Crazy to me.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:09 am

No, you can’t. ETOPS is a air carrier rule, doesn’t apply to private operators and no air carrier operates single pilot, by regulation. Single-engine Cessnas are ferried across oceans and they’re not ETOPS. If you own a single-pilot certified CJ-3, weather is good, go for Hilo, but you’re ETOPS, by definition. There are several larger bizjets owner-operated, husband and wife teams that fly all over the world, again not ETOPS. Military doesn’t use ETOPS, either. Lastly, Part 135 ETOPS starts with operations beyond 180 minutes from suitable diversion airports, so the vast majority of bizjet overwater legs aren’t ETOPS, either.

Don’t confuse ETOPS with overwater planning and using ETPs to fuel plan for diverts under various emergencies. Two different things.
 
26point2
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:09 am

This is a ridiculous idea and debating it, winglets or not, Is only an academic exercise at best.

Is the SJ30 even certified? Regardless, all the reasons this is a terrible idea have been mentioned. Wet footprint, contingency planning. FANS 1A equip requirements, etc.

I’ve seen the Air Ambulance Lear 36 in PHNL a few times In years past. They usually would come from VNY by way of Adak, AK to avoid the wind. Not sure how they made a profit running that route regularly. I haven’t seen that plane in Hawaii for over 15 years so they might have wised up and now use a Hawker? ....slightly better but not by much.

There are small fleets of Honda Jets and PC-12s based in Hawaii. They only fly inter island and not to the mainland. Obviously they made it but certainly with bladder tanks.
 
bomber996
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:31 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Just barely making it is not a plan..

Ask the Cirrus Driver in the widespread BRS parachute video about that. And he had a bladder added.


He had a mechanical malfunction and wasn't able to get fuel from to be fed from his auxiliary tanks. He knew a few hours before he ran out that he was going to run dry. He was an experienced ferry pilot, not just some Yahoo. He did it right, his equipment failed him. Dude works at one of the majors in the US now.

Peace :box:
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:03 am

[quote="GalaxyFlyer"]No, you can’t. ETOPS is a air carrier rule, doesn’t apply to private operators and no air carrier operates single pilot, by regulation. Single-engine Cessnas are ferried across oceans and they’re not ETOPS. If you own a single-pilot certified CJ-3, weather is good, go for Hilo.


Wow if you use a cj-3+ you would definitely have to pull out passenger seats and put in a bladder tank.
2040 nm range without It
https://cessna.txtav.com/en/citation/cj3
 
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rmoore7734
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:15 am

[quote="26point2"]

I’ve seen the Air Ambulance Lear 36 in PHNL a few times In years past. They usually would come from VNY by way of Adak, AK to avoid the wind.


Another reason to use adak, you have midway island as an emergency diversion airport going down to Hawaii via Adak.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:51 pm

rmoore7734 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
No, you can’t. ETOPS is a air carrier rule, doesn’t apply to private operators and no air carrier operates single pilot, by regulation. Single-engine Cessnas are ferried across oceans and they’re not ETOPS. If you own a single-pilot certified CJ-3, weather is good, go for Hilo.


Wow if you use a cj-3+ you would definitely have to pull out passenger seats and put in a bladder tank.
2040 nm range without It
https://cessna.txtav.com/en/citation/cj3


As was posted above, they’ve been ferried out there, how I can’t say. Having been in the business close-up, don’t take much stock in websites or brochures.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:01 pm

26point2 wrote:
This is a ridiculous idea and debating it, winglets or not, Is only an academic exercise at best.

Is the SJ30 even certified? Regardless, all the reasons this is a terrible idea have been mentioned. Wet footprint, contingency planning. FANS 1A equip requirements, etc.

I’ve seen the Air Ambulance Lear 36 in PHNL a few times In years past. They usually would come from VNY by way of Adak, AK to avoid the wind. Not sure how they made a profit running that route regularly. I haven’t seen that plane in Hawaii for over 15 years so they might have wised up and now use a Hawker? ....slightly better but not by much.

There are small fleets of Honda Jets and PC-12s based in Hawaii. They only fly inter island and not to the mainland. Obviously they made it but certainly with bladder tanks.


SJ-30 has been certified since 2005, there's around 8 that have been built.
From my cold, dead hands
 
goboeing
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:04 pm

Not only would I not want to be the single pilot of an airplane that is going to fly for six hours, and have to sit in discomfort for far too long and ration water intake . . . but I would not want to be a passenger on an airplane where there was only one pilot up front for six hours doing so.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:18 pm

Ferry pilots do it all the time—it’s about 18 hours to HNL in Cessna 206 and maybe 12-13 in a light twin
 
goboeing
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Re: Single pilot jets with enough range to Hawaii

Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:29 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Ferry pilots do it all the time—it’s about 18 hours to HNL in Cessna 206 and maybe 12-13 in a light twin


They sure do, but that is not a routine operation for anyone except them.

They do that for the purposes of repositioning an airplane across a body of water that it does not even have the capability to cross until it is reconfigured with extra fuel tanks.

Experienced ferry pilots are also a niche and don't fly 6-18 hour flights day in and day out. They airline into Point A, ferry the airplane to Point B, and airline home.

The thread starter points to airplanes that would be designed to do 6 hours in normal operations -- making ferry pilots a different discussion entirely.

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