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seahawk
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Re: Lufthansa Says A380s Won’t Return for at Least Two Years

Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:34 pm

Revelation wrote:
seahawk wrote:
When the time to recover to 2019 passenger numbers is increasingly moved backwards and were are now looking a 2023 or 2024 the A380 has no place in the industry any more.

Will EK be able to cope as a 77W-only airline?


No, they urgently need something smaller.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Lufthansa Group Fleet Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:26 pm

Eight A380s saved from the axe, says Spohr immediately after shareholders approve the government bailout.

https://mobile.twitter.com/SpaethFlies/ ... 5949791237
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:28 pm

D-AIQD will be phased out earlier than planned - it will be ferried on 03.07 to LDE instead of keeping it until 2022. Maybe D-AIQF will follow some days later.

P.S. By the way, LH could have got rid of its remaining A320-211s by getting back D-AIZQ - ZV from EW and it would be an equal swap (6 for 6 remaining) - so LH can become an A320-214-only operator.
Last flown aircrafts: A21N TC-LSF < B738 TC-JVY < E190 D-AECF < B77W VP-BGC < A320 VP-BOM < A320 VQ-BES < A320 OE-LBO < A21N CS-TJO < A21N CS-TXC < E190 CS-TPQ < A319 F-GRXC < A321 F-GTAH < B738 SP-LWF < E175 SP-LII
 
danipawa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:33 pm

Boeing 747 -430 28285 1106 D-ABVR Lufthansa ferried 25jun20 FRA-LDE for onward storage
Boeing 747 -430 29871 1293 D-ABTK Lufthansa ferried 29jun20 FRA-ENS, for part-out & scrap
 
DUSZRH
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:00 pm

A321Lufthansa wrote:
D-AIQD will be phased out earlier than planned - it will be ferried on 03.07 to LDE instead of keeping it until 2022. Maybe D-AIQF will follow some days later.

P.S. By the way, LH could have got rid of its remaining A320-211s by getting back D-AIZQ - ZV from EW and it would be an equal swap (6 for 6 remaining) - so LH can become an A320-214-only operator.


But EW doesn't have any -211s anymore ... (and when they still had, LH had more than 6 of the -211s)

It looks like the rest of the -211s will be out shortly. Interesting to see what will happen to the 2 newer ones.
 
DUSZRH
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Re: Lufthansa Says A380s Won’t Return for at Least Two Years

Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
Ref: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -two-years

So even the plan to fly the remaining 7 out of MUC is now uncertain.


Its 8, not 7.

They have 14 and 6 were sold to Airbus at specific dates. Spohr said at the GA (AHV) that it remains to be seen what happens to them.
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:10 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
A321Lufthansa wrote:
D-AIQD will be phased out earlier than planned - it will be ferried on 03.07 to LDE instead of keeping it until 2022. Maybe D-AIQF will follow some days later.

P.S. By the way, LH could have got rid of its remaining A320-211s by getting back D-AIZQ - ZV from EW and it would be an equal swap (6 for 6 remaining) - so LH can become an A320-214-only operator.


But EW doesn't have any -211s anymore ... (and when they still had, LH had more than 6 of the -211s)

It looks like the rest of the -211s will be out shortly. Interesting to see what will happen to the 2 newer ones.

Sorry, I didn't express my opinion correctly. Under swap I meant D-AIZQ-ZV (total 6) being transferred back to LH (also they can be useful as they are with the regular rear configuration instead of the new one with claustrophobic lavatories and very small galley) and remaining 6 A320-211s being phased out.
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DUSZRH
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 5:57 pm

That’s a bit of wishful thinking. LH won’t turn the clock back/the ship has sailed. There are many people who don’t care (e.g. the smaller examples in my family) or don’t know that there are differences within/between airlines. And the people who care+know get away with checking in early to select front seats.

LH won’t reconfigure EW planes (different front galley) or even more ridiculously accept a different galley layout + different amount of seats. There are enough neos coming in the next 3.5 years to fill any need. (As per the rescue package 80 planes until end of 23, I suspect the majority will be neos).
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:33 pm

DUSZRH wrote:
That’s a bit of wishful thinking. LH won’t turn the clock back/the ship has sailed. There are many people who don’t care (e.g. the smaller examples in my family) or don’t know that there are differences within/between airlines. And the people who care+know get away with checking in early to select front seats.

LH won’t reconfigure EW planes (different front galley) or even more ridiculously accept a different galley layout + different amount of seats. There are enough neos coming in the next 3.5 years to fill any need. (As per the rescue package 80 planes until end of 23, I suspect the majority will be neos).

Those 6 frames are initially from LH, so there was just 1 row added (174 vs 168) and nothing more, as I remember. So they are pretty easy to be reconfigured back to LH as it was done earlier with D-AIPT/Y/Z and D-AIQD/F/H/S.
Last flown aircrafts: A21N TC-LSF < B738 TC-JVY < E190 D-AECF < B77W VP-BGC < A320 VP-BOM < A320 VQ-BES < A320 OE-LBO < A21N CS-TJO < A21N CS-TXC < E190 CS-TPQ < A319 F-GRXC < A321 F-GTAH < B738 SP-LWF < E175 SP-LII
 
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A321Lufthansa
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:22 pm

By the way, what will be with EW A332s after liquidation of SunExpress Germany?
Last flown aircrafts: A21N TC-LSF < B738 TC-JVY < E190 D-AECF < B77W VP-BGC < A320 VP-BOM < A320 VQ-BES < A320 OE-LBO < A21N CS-TJO < A21N CS-TXC < E190 CS-TPQ < A319 F-GRXC < A321 F-GTAH < B738 SP-LWF < E175 SP-LII
 
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mercure1
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Re: LH Group fleet groundings, Germanwings closure

Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:37 pm

mercure f-wtcc
 
xwb777
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Updated: LH Group to establish new AOC for leisure ops

Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:48 pm

Lufthansa has announed that it will be starting up a new leisure airline named ‘Ocean’. The airline is currently in the process of obtaining an AOC. The new airline will be a subsidiary of LH amd will be using LH branding.

Ocean is expected to launch in 2022 and according to the plan:

- It will be a quality leisure airline, similar to Edelweiss
- It will initially have 11 planes, with four based out of Frankfurt, three based out of Munich, and four based out of Dusseldorf
-destinations include so could take over some long haul to Tampa, Anchorage, Las Vegas & Orlando etc

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/l ... 65.article
 
FSDan
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:54 pm

Is this a replacement for Eurowings long haul? How is it different/similar to Jump?

This being LH, maybe we'll end up with LH branding, "operated by Ocean", with SN aircraft flown by EW crews... :duck:
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burnsie28
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:09 pm

This sounds exactly like when cityline was flying the A340's.
 
argentinevol98
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:11 pm

I think I may never understand what LH's brand strategy is. Hopefully they use this to somehow clear up the mess they currently have. Seems like a weird moment to be trying something like this.
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by738
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:11 pm

what a waste of time
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:16 pm

Ocean is the project name for AOC, not brand.
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A380MSN004
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:24 pm

xwb777 wrote:
- It will be a quality leisure airline, similar to Edelweiss


Reminds me Joon from Air France :)
 
DeltaWings
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:26 pm

xwb777 wrote:

- It will be a quality leisure airline, similar to Edelweiss


Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/l ... 65.article



Ähhm no. Edelweiss is not a quality airline.
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Varsity1
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:33 pm

"International leisure travel is basically 0 right now. So lets fire up a new long haul leisure LCC!"
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:34 pm

FSDan wrote:
Is this a replacement for Eurowings long haul? How is it different/similar to Jump?

This being LH, maybe we'll end up with LH branding, "operated by Ocean", with SN aircraft flown by EW crews... :duck:


Hmm, what's the point? Staff on cheaper contracts with a separate seniority list? Cabin service/hand baggage/checked baggage fees different from LH?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:37 pm

Its not a new airline. Simply AOC as confirmed by LH Group spokesperson

Lufthansa spokesperson EMEA Neda Jaafari clarified the separate airline entity planned to supplement leisure travel routes, entitled project ‘Ocean GmbH’, will “not be a new brand, but an AOC operating license”. Ms Jaafari continued: “We are currently marketing a long haul product under the Eurowings brand, for which Lufthansa is commercially responsible and the product will continue to be sold by Lufthansa and Eurowings“.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:38 pm

I think it is to disguise lower service standards. Still wonder why US carriers don't do this.
 
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LH748
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:38 pm

Bad idea and even worse name...
It used to be the norm that you establish a brand name in a market but for unknown reasons it's too trendy for CEOs today and they have to build up one weirdly named start up after another
None of those Joon-Level-whatever nonsense was a good idea and neither is Ocean
I assume they'll go for a dark blue almost black tail design so that they can easily put a white crane on it once they go bust
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mchei
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm

argentinevol98 wrote:
I think I may never understand what LH's brand strategy is. Hopefully they use this to somehow clear up the mess they currently have. Seems like a weird moment to be trying something like this.


This!
But as stated here, it’s just another GmbH to avoid collective agreements they have elsewhere in the group...
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PANAMsterdam
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:41 pm

This is a weird move. They have a good leisure brand called Eurowings, they did a lot to make it a bit like the old Air Berlin (route wise) and now that's being thrown away?

I always thought LH Group's strategy was
- LH + LX premium
- OS + SN semi-premium
- EW + WK lower cost/leisure
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RvA
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
xwb777 wrote:
- It will be a quality leisure airline, similar to Edelweiss


Reminds me Joon from Air France :)


Edelweiss uses the same business class seat as Swiss. Did Joon have business class at all?
 
CALMSP
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:48 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
I think it is to disguise lower service standards. Still wonder why US carriers don't do this.


haven't they already? TED, SONG, etc.?
 
RvA
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:50 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
FSDan wrote:
Is this a replacement for Eurowings long haul? How is it different/similar to Jump?

This being LH, maybe we'll end up with LH branding, "operated by Ocean", with SN aircraft flown by EW crews... :duck:


Hmm, what's the point? Staff on cheaper contracts with a separate seniority list? Cabin service/hand baggage/checked baggage fees different from LH?


At the very least the first point. Similar to city line but I imagine cheaper still.
 
RvA
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:51 pm

PANAMsterdam wrote:
This is a weird move. They have a good leisure brand called Eurowings, they did a lot to make it a bit like the old Air Berlin (route wise) and now that's being thrown away?

I always thought LH Group's strategy was
- LH + LX premium
- OS + SN semi-premium
- EW + WK lower cost/leisure


I think EW and WK are not in the same bucket? EW is more LCC than WK?
 
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IrishAyes
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Re: Updated: LH Group to establish new AOC for leisure ops

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:51 pm

Unreal. LH group has a knack for repeating the same actions and expecting different results. What a mess
 
FSDan
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Re: Updated: LH Group to establish new AOC for leisure ops

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:51 pm

I wonder if the reasoning for establishing a new AOC is something related to CityLine and EW not being able to use LH branding, while the new airline somehow will be able to? With CityLine operating lower cost long haul for LH, they had to paint all the 343s in plain Star Alliance colors, and it sounds like the aim of this venture is essentially the same, but they want to use full LH branding?

I assume that with these changes, EW will stay around but will be just a short haul leisure operation, and LH will find some A330s or A340s to transfer to the new AOC.

Either way, one positive takeaway in my book is that it sounds like they don't plan on completely ending their long haul service from DUS.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
RvA
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:52 pm

CALMSP wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I think it is to disguise lower service standards. Still wonder why US carriers don't do this.


haven't they already? TED, SONG, etc.?


And one that still exists, AC Rouge.
 
canmau
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Re: Updated: LH Group to establish new AOC for leisure ops

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:05 pm

It's just an AOC, let's not get overly excited
 
MalevA346
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Re: Updated: LH Group to establish new AOC for leisure ops

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:14 pm

IrishAyes wrote:
Unreal. LH group has a knack for repeating the same actions and expecting different results. What a mess


What do You except from an airline who's main and only goal is to keep everything as it is? An ancient mammoth which is more and more expensive to keep alive... But we clients, state, tax payers, happily pay for it, no? It is a national interest!
 
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Aisak
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:14 pm

RvA wrote:
CALMSP wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I think it is to disguise lower service standards. Still wonder why US carriers don't do this.


haven't they already? TED, SONG, etc.?


And one that still exists, AC Rouge.

I seems quite similar to what IB wanted to achieve with Iberia Express. New legal entity with new AOC, new IATA/IACO code I2/IBS but effectively all of them sold as IB3600-IB3999 flights operated under a Subsidiary member of oneworld.

Also Virgin Atlantic created a new entity called Virgin Atlantic International Limited with a different AOC and sharing the VS/VIR codes with Virgin Atlantic. But this time it was apparently to obtain some cash from the slots though some sort of mortgage.
 
airhansa
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:14 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
This is a weird move. They have a good leisure brand called Eurowings, they did a lot to make it a bit like the old Air Berlin (route wise) and now that's being thrown away?

I always thought LH Group's strategy was
- LH + LX premium
- OS + SN semi-premium
- EW + WK lower cost/leisure


I'd say that LH / LX / OS are the regular legacy airlines. SN / EW are low cost airlines but SN is more similar to Virgin Australia than Easy Jet.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:32 am

CALMSP wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I think it is to disguise lower service standards. Still wonder why US carriers don't do this.


haven't they already? TED, SONG, etc.?


Why don't they? Aircraft utilization. Better crew productivity from fewer work subsets. Unions don't want lower-paid staff groups. More sophisticated revenue management.
 
Iloveboeing
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Re: Updated: LH Group to establish new AOC for leisure ops

Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:46 am

“Ocean?” “Ocean” is not even a German word, so it shows no connection to LH or Germany itself. I fail to see how the brands could co-exist.

Besides, the “airline within an airline” thing doesn’t work. Think “Song” at DL and “Ted” at United; two of the dumbest names of airlines to date.
 
RvA
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Re: Updated: LH Group to establish new AOC for leisure ops

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:19 am

Iloveboeing wrote:
“Ocean?” “Ocean” is not even a German word, so it shows no connection to LH or Germany itself. I fail to see how the brands could co-exist.

Besides, the “airline within an airline” thing doesn’t work. Think “Song” at DL and “Ted” at United; two of the dumbest names of airlines to date.


Just like you failed to read this thread properly. Ocean is not the brand.
 
RvA
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:22 am

Aisak wrote:
RvA wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

haven't they already? TED, SONG, etc.?


And one that still exists, AC Rouge.

I seems quite similar to what IB wanted to achieve with Iberia Express. New legal entity with new AOC, new IATA/IACO code I2/IBS but effectively all of them sold as IB3600-IB3999 flights operated under a Subsidiary member of oneworld.

Also Virgin Atlantic created a new entity called Virgin Atlantic International Limited with a different AOC and sharing the VS/VIR codes with Virgin Atlantic. But this time it was apparently to obtain some cash from the slots though some sort of mortgage.


Similar but key is that the point is a leisure focused airline. So, taking on Condor etc. rather than using it as an “express” style brand taking on business routes even. I think Rouge may be the closest thing to this. Level in some way but if this Ocean owned entity operates out of the LH hubs I suppose this is something Level doesn’t do for IAG, yet?
 
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vhtje
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:21 am

Ziyulu wrote:
I think it is to disguise lower service standards. Still wonder why US carriers don't do this.


....because they have better morals and are less greedy when it comes to the welfare of their employees?
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
a350lover
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:00 am

PANAMsterdam wrote:
This is a weird move. They have a good leisure brand called Eurowings, they did a lot to make it a bit like the old Air Berlin (route wise) and now that's being thrown away?

I always thought LH Group's strategy was
- LH + LX premium
- OS + SN semi-premium
- EW + WK lower cost/leisure


I wonder if customers appreciate and notice so much benchmarking. They simply fly and having choices is cool, but that many?
 
MalevA346
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:03 am

vhtje wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I think it is to disguise lower service standards. Still wonder why US carriers don't do this.


....because they have better morals and are less greedy when it comes to the welfare of their employees?


Meanwhile they forget about their clients... Enjoy Your rudely served pretzels on the 5 hours flights then!
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Updated: LH Group to establish new AOC for leisure ops

Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:51 pm

Think about it. If US carriers created a separate brand for their domestic products and leave their mainline for international long haul, wouldn't AA, UA, and DL, be better than many of the top tier Asian carriers? They would easily be 5 star airlines.
 
JeremyXWB
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Re: Updated: LH Group to establish new AOC for leisure ops

Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:09 pm

xwb777 wrote:
- It will initially have 11 planes


"Ocean's 11"? :duck:

But on a serious note though, what a muddled and incomprehensible strategy LH has! Really messy and complex. To me, this sounds like Jump 2.0
 
mxaxai
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:19 pm

a350lover wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
This is a weird move. They have a good leisure brand called Eurowings, they did a lot to make it a bit like the old Air Berlin (route wise) and now that's being thrown away?

I always thought LH Group's strategy was
- LH + LX premium
- OS + SN semi-premium
- EW + WK lower cost/leisure


I wonder if customers appreciate and notice so much benchmarking. They simply fly and having choices is cool, but that many?

Most routes don't have service from two LH group carriers anyway, and those that do are sold like code-share flights. On long haul, LH, OS and LX are marketed with the same "premium" strategy, albeit to different markets. So region A or demographic A will see mostly LH advertisements, region B gets mostly LX, and so on ...
 
diverted
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Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:05 pm

mxaxai wrote:
a350lover wrote:
PANAMsterdam wrote:
This is a weird move. They have a good leisure brand called Eurowings, they did a lot to make it a bit like the old Air Berlin (route wise) and now that's being thrown away?

I always thought LH Group's strategy was
- LH + LX premium
- OS + SN semi-premium
- EW + WK lower cost/leisure


I wonder if customers appreciate and notice so much benchmarking. They simply fly and having choices is cool, but that many?

Most routes don't have service from two LH group carriers anyway, and those that do are sold like code-share flights. On long haul, LH, OS and LX are marketed with the same "premium" strategy, albeit to different markets. So region A or demographic A will see mostly LH advertisements, region B gets mostly LX, and so on ...


The only difference I see between OS and LH is the lack of flynet on OS widebodies, and from YUL all the Lufthansa group carriers are basically the same. Just depends whether you want to connect through FRA/MUC/ZRH/VIE.
 
argentinevol98
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:40 pm

Re: Lufthansa to create a new airline ‘Ocean’

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:36 pm

vhtje wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
I think it is to disguise lower service standards. Still wonder why US carriers don't do this.


....because they have better morals and are less greedy when it comes to the welfare of their employees?


I'm gonna go with far stronger unions that have (from the union's perspective) far far better contracts when it comes to limiting "foul play" from the airline in trying to screw them over for cost-savings. US scope won't tolerate even the E175-E2 imagine trying to "outsource" an A340...
"He sospechado alguna vez que la única cosa sin misterio es la felicidad, porque se justifica por sí sola"-Jorge Luis Borges
 
jghealey
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri May 11, 2018 5:46 pm

Re: Updated: LH Group to establish new AOC for leisure ops

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:03 pm

Why is everyone being so sceptical - the whole purpose of this is to simplify the operations structure. Leisure operations on 4 AOCs was totally ridiculous and this promises to fix that. It's very much needed - and the name 'Ocean' is obviously irrelevant. And no, the EW brand isn't going to go, chances are these aircraft will actually carry the EW branding.

Remember as well that leisure travel will be among the first to pick up. Already we are seeing a rebound in shorthaul International travel, it won't be too long before we see the same for longhaul providing restrictions are relaxed.

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