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lowfareair
Posts: 314
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:18 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
lowfareair wrote:
Hmm, I wonder what this means for PHL as a European gateway. I cannot see AA giving it up (as that would likely cause a downward spiral for other flights there) but not sure how having a stronger European gateway at JFK will do anything but hurt PHL in the long-term.



It was worded right in Vasu's statement that this would not impact PHL as the TA gateway.


I saw that it would continue to complement PHL; where did they mention that it would not impact PHL?

Also, I specifically mentioned long-term. What they say today does not impact long-term. Exhibit A, the PR from when NW and DL announced their merger: "The merged airline will maintain all hubs at Atlanta, Cincinnati, Detroit, Memphis, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New York-JFK, Salt Lake City, Amsterdam and Tokyo-Narita – each of which will benefit from improved global connectivity."
 
maverick4002
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:18 pm

Anyone have insight as to why specifically NYC - Athens and Tel Aviv are included in this announcement. What specifically about this partnership makes those two routes viable now, and not before? And why those two routes and not idk, JFK-IST (just as a generic example)
 
AMALH747430
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:21 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
I don’t see why AA people are viewing this as good news. It seems more to me like AA is giving up on competing in NYC on its own and is willing to outsource (not entirely obviously) domestic to B6 while it brings international to the table.

It did the same with AS where it realized it could not build a West Coast transpacific hub on its own and therefore partnered with AS in SEA.


I agree, this is AA retrenching in two major US markets and handing the business over to a codeshare parter that they legally can’t talk pricing or scheduling with. This isn’t some JV (which is prohibited domestically) like AA-IAG. I’m also curious as to what the DOJ will have to say about this. They made AA-AS scale back their codeshare after the AS-VX merger. This is clearly a move to reduce competition.

As for the B6 fanboys claiming that this hurts DL and UA, I wouldn’t be so quick to the draw on that. Traffic is not picking back up like everyone thought it would back in March/April. DL and UA have better balance sheets than AA. Those airlines are being very strategic about protecting their assets. AA and B6 are throwing caution to the wind and betting the farm. It’s great to go to fire sale clearance. However, the bill still has to be paid. AA has less money in the bank than their competitors. DL and UA have more resources to be strategic and fight this battle as needed. B6 is taking on quite a bit of risk considering all this can ever be is a simple codeshare. We also need to look at operations. Neither AA or B6 ate the poster children for operational reliability. I’ll give you UA is only marginally better, but DL is much better.

AA can’t make a go of NYC or LA. B6 is largely irrelevant to the middle of the country unless you ONLY travel to Boston, New York, Orlando, or Ft. Lauderdale. I see why they both need each other. I think they can help each other. I just don’t see them outdoing DL or UA in NYC or LA having to continue to compete at arm’s length.

In a previous thread, somebody brought up the Northwest, Continental, and Delta partnership from the 90s and early 2000s as evidence of a domestic codeshare working. I think at that time it was effective. United did the same thing with US and AS codeshares with almost everybody but WN. The industry is different now though. The market was much more segmented back then. We didn’t have three major airlines plus one behemoth of an LCC that pretty much covered the whole country. I don’t know that is sort of an arm’s-length relationship is going to work now when your two major competitors have their own comprehensive hub operations at NYC and LA.

This reminds me of past visions of grAAndeur that didn’t pAAn out.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:26 pm

History repeats.

AA-B6 were partners previously.

http://blog.jetblue.com/american-airlin ... ment-faqs/
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:32 pm

And I always thought that AS and B6 should interline as each covers different but large parts of the US. Maybe it will happen. Now if the two of them could inspire AA on customer service ......
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:06 pm

Didn't American warn it will lay off people? Can't this be considered outsourcing future growth in the Northeast at the detriment of those being convinced that furloughs are inevitable? I can see the brilliance of the move, no doubt, but this does indicate American has not been able to make it on its own and has to rely on other brands to make things work. Delta at this point needs to get more efficient and nimbler, touting one-branded consistency.
 
hohd
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:09 pm

This is an extremely good situation developing for both AA and B6, originally I thought Alaska and B6 would get into some kind of partnership, since they have minimum overlap and were smaller carriers, but this will be a jolt to both DL and UA and to some extent WN.

Curious point both Alaska and JetBlue have alliances with EK and both have the same with AA, how will that relationship change, will AA eventually do code sharing with EK as well ? It now looks like either DL or UA have to swallow their pride and start code sharing with EK, more likely UA since they have more overlap with EK markets in US.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:14 pm

United1 wrote:
catiii wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but with these partnerships AA+B6/AS will now be the largest carrier in NYC, BOS, LAX, SEA, South Florida, Dallas, DC, PHX, & CLT?


Since they all remain standalone carriers, no. AA isn’t the largest carrier in BOS.


I don't know about NYC either...UA and DL may still be larger. This could also be a sign that AA plans to shrink fairly significantly in the Northeast. B6's press release mentions AA plans to deploy larger 2-class RJs to the region next year. That implies AA is pulling mainline back and backfilling with Eagle.


Not necessarily. Eagle operates a lot of flights out of LGA with ERJ-145s that aren’t really competitive, when compared to ERJ-170/175s. For what it’s worth, even Delta has a huge LGA operation with regional partners rather than mainline.
 
MrPeanut
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:14 pm

I think AA is planning on significantly downsizing both coasts in lieu of these partnerships. It’s no secret they struggled on the west coast (enter Alaska) and dropped all those JFK slots (enter JetBlue). AA is going to be much smaller after Covid-19, so it appears their plan is to draw down those unprofitable west coast / northeast flying in lieu of partnerships.
 
MrPeanut
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:17 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but with these partnerships AA+B6/AS will now be the largest carrier in NYC, BOS, LAX, SEA, South Florida, Dallas, DC, PHX, & CLT?


You are assuming AA stays the same size in these markets. They are shrinking certain areas in lieu of partnerships. They have no choice, they will be coming out of covid much smaller and are focusing on DFW and CLT.
 
FlyHPN
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:30 pm

http://blog.jetblue.com/american-airlines-agreement-faqs/ wrote:
Will customers be able to earn AAdvantage miles on a JetBlue flight and vice versa?
No, we have not announced frequent flier reciprocity today.

And then...
http://blog.jetblue.com/american-airlines-agreement-faqs/ wrote:
Will these flights be sold as American Airlines flights or JetBlue Flights?
JetBlue flights in the selected markets will be sold on aa.com as JetBlue flights.


Interesting that you will be able to but JetBlue flights on AA.com, but can't earn points on them. The email I got from TrueBlue does seem to indicate they are working on that.

I'm also confused on the wording. Does that also mean B6 won't be selling AA, while AA will be selling B6?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:31 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Didn't American warn it will lay off people? Can't this be considered outsourcing future growth in the Northeast at the detriment of those being convinced that furloughs are inevitable? I can see the brilliance of the move, no doubt, but this does indicate American has not been able to make it on its own and has to rely on other brands to make things work. Delta at this point needs to get more efficient and nimbler, touting one-branded consistency.


That's one way to spin it, although DL has been doing this with int'l (AM, VS, LATAM, e.t.c), I would not consider it a failure to make either brand work. Each and every airline has weaknesses, these moves are ways to address them.

MrPeanut wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but with these partnerships AA+B6/AS will now be the largest carrier in NYC, BOS, LAX, SEA, South Florida, Dallas, DC, PHX, & CLT?


You are assuming AA stays the same size in these markets. They are shrinking certain areas in lieu of partnerships. They have no choice, they will be coming out of covid much smaller and are focusing on DFW and CLT.


In case you missed it AA is expanding long-haul from NYC, and upguaging 50 seaters at NYC

tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but with these partnerships AA+B6/AS will now be the largest carrier in NYC, BOS, LAX, SEA, South Florida, Dallas, DC, PHX, & CLT?


Right, I think you are 100% right about this part. These deals help AA by making them more relevant in rest of the country where they are fight UA/DL for high yielding traffic. The biggest losers here are DL and UA.

Just taking your home airport as an example, I see JetBlue now entering IND from BOS/JFK and possible EWR. That would give people a lot more reason to pick AA ahead of DL.


With AA operating IND-BOS/LGA/JFK (at least for now), I don't think that will happen. The northeast should be interesting to watch the next few years though.....
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CobaltScar
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:32 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
Anyone have insight as to why specifically NYC - Athens and Tel Aviv are included in this announcement. What specifically about this partnership makes those two routes viable now, and not before? And why those two routes and not idk, JFK-IST (just as a generic example)



Way more Greeks and Jews in NYC than Turks?
 
Alias1024
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:33 pm

And now we also know why the details of JetBlue's 'no furlough' clause with their pilots was kept under wraps. The B6 pilots gave domestic codeshare scope relief so this deal could be done. They also agreed to reduce reserve guarantee from 75 to 70 hours in exchange for two more days off.

It'll be interesting if there are any ramifications to their union leadership from members. Giving away scope protection and pay without even sending it to a membership ratification vote is a bold move.
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klm617
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:36 pm

Great news for AA, B6 and AS. Congrats on this amazing partnership and the alliance they are building.
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1337Delta764
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:44 pm

Since I have most of my FF miles in AAdvantage since I live in the Phoenix area, this can be useful since I often go to Puerto Rico to visit my family. My uncle also lives in NYC.
Last edited by 1337Delta764 on Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
chonetsao
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:44 pm

I wonder if AA will further scale back in FLL and PBI while concentrate on MIA. B6 could build more prescence in FLL and PBI.
 
sailsail
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:45 pm

NWAESC wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
catiii wrote:
Why is Vasu the man? Who’s to say this wasn’t originated on the B6 side?


Arguably the most respected network planning guy in the business... look what he has done in SEA, LAX, and now the northeast. Now with better feed, their int'l business will be much more viable


Can you imagine a dinner party with him, Glen Hauenstein, and Scott Kirby all at the table?



I’ve worked with him. He is an jerk who can break all the rules and not get punished. He selected a good team under him which makes the decisions and figures out the logistics. He is just a puppet. Vasu’s attitude, disrespect unwillingness to thank his team and general person demeanor is one of the reasons I left AA in February. VPs should be held to a higher standard, not a lower one.

His team figured this out, not him. He is just the talker....

I will say though, the guy can talk his way out of and into anything. He could kill three people in Cold blood in front of a cop and probably talk his way into a verbal warning.
 
onwFan
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:46 pm

One is free to interpret it the way they want. However you interpret it, this lays a foundation for recovery post covid for AA, AS and B6. With international feed significantly low for the next few years, AS and B6 need a way to gain more passengers from more destinations (and AA can provide that with its donestic network). AA is going to shrink and so are UA and DL. But they all obviously need a back-up to retain FFs in the regions they shrink. It helps that AA’s network overlaps the least with AS and B6, on top of complementing their international network; and so they jumped. Even though they are not in a JV, they all see the benefit of establishing a friend circle, giving their FFs a strong proposition at pretty much all the major cities in the US. This is clearly about achieving what they want with little cost; and definitely gives them an edge above DL/UA. What happens long term, no one knows including any of the airlines.
 
Brandon757
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:51 pm

Ah, so this is why B6 decided to start JFK-DFW.
 
CLT704
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:56 pm

The return of CLT-JFK on B6 seems like a lock imo!
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:07 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Didn't American warn it will lay off people? Can't this be considered outsourcing future growth in the Northeast at the detriment of those being convinced that furloughs are inevitable? I can see the brilliance of the move, no doubt, but this does indicate American has not been able to make it on its own and has to rely on other brands to make things work. Delta at this point needs to get more efficient and nimbler, touting one-branded consistency.


That's one way to spin it, although DL has been doing this with int'l (AM, VS, LATAM, e.t.c), I would not consider it a failure to make either brand work. Each and every airline has weaknesses, these moves are ways to address them.


Yes, all airlines have and are doing it, including Delta, but domestic is the largest of the revenue-pulls for U.S. carriers. In addition, most alliances have formed not predicated upon massive layoff proposals, the majority of which will be within the U.S. But on a separate note, I can see how forging alliances can also secure long-term survivability, and a case for less future layoffs, amid an unpredictable domestic booking climate.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:11 pm

In addition to evaluating all facets of the partnership, wouldn't the DOT have to look at how Alaska and JetBlue intend to continue to compete against each other while both being tied at each hip to the success of American?
 
tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:14 pm

Midwestindy wrote:

With AA operating IND-BOS/LGA/JFK (at least for now), I don't think that will happen. The northeast should be interesting to watch the next few years though.....


They just gave up 70 slots at JFK. They are not coming back to IND-JFK. For BOS, I think they will just concentrate on hub markets.. I see this for IND, CMH and STL. AA will not be operating these markets from JFK going forward. B6 will add these markets over the next couple of years to complete its network out of JFK and BOS. It's possible EWR will be added too. AA is relying on JetBlue for domestic feed in these markets.

Alias1024 wrote:
And now we also know why the details of JetBlue's 'no furlough' clause with their pilots was kept under wraps. The B6 pilots gave domestic codeshare scope relief so this deal could be done. They also agreed to reduce reserve guarantee from 75 to 70 hours in exchange for two more days off.

It'll be interesting if there are any ramifications to their union leadership from members. Giving away scope protection and pay without even sending it to a membership ratification vote is a bold move.

Without this domestic codeshare and the expected adds at NYC, there would definitely have been furloughs. Seems like a pretty reasonable tradeoff.

chonetsao wrote:
I wonder if AA will further scale back in FLL and PBI while concentrate on MIA. B6 could build more prescence in FLL and PBI.

Not at all. JetBlue is going to put all its eggs in NYC area for the next couple of years if this isn't obvious. The landscape is open for them to become the largest carrier in NYC and Boston. Florida will have to wait.

Brandon757 wrote:
Ah, so this is why B6 decided to start JFK-DFW.

Keep in mind they also started MSP, DTW. B6 is going to make a really big push at JFK and EWR this next year.

FlyHPN wrote:
http://blog.jetblue.com/american-airlines-agreement-faqs/ wrote:
Will customers be able to earn AAdvantage miles on a JetBlue flight and vice versa?
No, we have not announced frequent flier reciprocity today.

And then...
http://blog.jetblue.com/american-airlines-agreement-faqs/ wrote:
Will these flights be sold as American Airlines flights or JetBlue Flights?
JetBlue flights in the selected markets will be sold on aa.com as JetBlue flights.


Interesting that you will be able to but JetBlue flights on AA.com, but can't earn points on them. The email I got from TrueBlue does seem to indicate they are working on that.

I'm also confused on the wording. Does that also mean B6 won't be selling AA, while AA will be selling B6?

I think that means as usual, JetBlue IT is terrible.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:15 pm

Doesn't AA's pilot union have to give their approval before a deal like this can move forward? And if so, why would they agree to something like this? Seems like this will make it easier and more necessary to reduce AA staffing (including pilots).
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United1
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:21 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
[

MrPeanut wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but with these partnerships AA+B6/AS will now be the largest carrier in NYC, BOS, LAX, SEA, South Florida, Dallas, DC, PHX, & CLT?


You are assuming AA stays the same size in these markets. They are shrinking certain areas in lieu of partnerships. They have no choice, they will be coming out of covid much smaller and are focusing on DFW and CLT.


In case you missed it AA is expanding long-haul from NYC, and upguaging 50 seaters at NYC



AA is adding a few long haul flights but you are assuming AA is upguaging 50 seats RJs. AA could very easily be cutting some mainline in favor of 2 cabin RJ's. ie AA mainline longhaul and trunk routes, B6 mainline and Eagle on regional routes.

AA is shrinking (as are all the legacies) so any growth in one market is coming from another this is not an add...this is a shift.
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United1
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:25 pm

DL747400 wrote:
Doesn't AA's pilot union have to give their approval before a deal like this can move forward? And if so, why would they agree to something like this? Seems like this will make it easier and more necessary to reduce AA staffing (including pilots).


Thanks for bringing this up...the response from AA's unions should be epic. This is almost being pitched as outsourcing mainline markets to B6. That is not going to fly and nor should it B6 pilots get furlough protection and AAs pilots are out on the street.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
ahj2000
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:27 pm

This si actually quite great. The two carriers can now offer each other way more from JFK especially, and somewhat from BOS (where it seems B6 gets the short straw--a token flight to LHR, which they want to serve themselves anyway). Sounds like they're going to ignore that they're partners and go full competitive on S.FL and LAX routes, but overall this was welcome news to wake up to this morning. With a better AS relationship and an expanded presence in NY with B6, American really has no network holes outside of Asia, Africa and India.

Hopefully the new routes on both sides will help the companies keep jobs.
This sentence in the PR from B6 has me wondering if they've talked about more though... "And, once the coronavirus pandemic has ended, the new partnership is certain to facilitate American adding new long-haul markets in Europe, Africa, India and South America"
I see returns to business markets in EU like ZRH, and the introduction of new markets like CMN, LOS, BOM, and BOG or LIM.
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tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:29 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
I think AA is planning on significantly downsizing both coasts in lieu of these partnerships. It’s no secret they struggled on the west coast (enter Alaska) and dropped all those JFK slots (enter JetBlue). AA is going to be much smaller after Covid-19, so it appears their plan is to draw down those unprofitable west coast / northeast flying in lieu of partnerships.

Yep. It was obvious 3 months ago this was going to their strategy. I don't see what other choices they had. Frankly, JetBlue management did a good job here in getting AA to agree to this.

Midwestindy wrote:
I don't think AA is giving B6 any gates in LAX, since this is a Northeast partnership.

Well, JetBlue just got enough gates at T-5 to have 70 flights. So at minimum, AA is allowing JetBlue to stay at T-5 and take over gates from ULCCs as they get moves to MSC. Which means, AA themselves are not taking those same gates.

Brickell305 wrote:
They've announced firm plans (announced schedule of expanded service) to grow in EWR. Outside of that, they haven't done any of that. In LAX, they shifted their current operations from LGB to LAX. They said they hoped to get the station to 70 flights a day within 5 years. Nothing firm announced. Re JFK/LGA/BOS, what firm plans have been announced?


Did you miss the 4 routes they added out of jFK (3 of which are their largest missing routes out of JFK) and 2 routes they added out of LGA in the same announcement?

https://crankyflier.com/2020/07/16/amer ... rtnership/
"JetBlue could grow beyond its tiny presence at LaGuardia by utilizing gates and slots that American might not need."

Looks like they are already utilizing slots that AA doesn't need with 2 new routes to TPA/RSW.

Look, utilizing gates AA might not need. JetBlue right now has 16 flights out of 6 gates. So they are going to get so many additional slots at LGA that they would need additional gates? MAT should be able to handle 30 to 35 flights. So looks like AA is going to give JetBlue at least 20 slots to add flights at LGA. Remember what I predicted?

Let's not forget AA released 70 JFK slots.

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=69683
"
JetBlue will grow in greater New York City, adding flights at LaGuardia (LGA) and Newark (EWR), while also increasing its presence at JFK for seamless connections to American’s expanded international network.
...
As New York’s Hometown Airline®, JetBlue plans to increase flying out of New York’s three major airports, bringing its award-winning experience to more customers. Its growth at JFK will be aimed at offering even more connection opportunities to American’s growing international network of destinations. From both New York and Boston, JetBlue plans to enhance service to strategic markets, including those on the East Coast, West Coast, and in the Southeast. This will further build on JetBlue’s recently announced growth between EWR and nine markets, including Mint service to LAX and SFO.
"
Oh look, they are adding more flights at LGA, EWR and JFK on top of what they already announced. They are going to add more connection opportunities to AA's JFK international flights. Which means, more destinations expected.

How much more clear can they be? Huge expansion coming at all 3 major NYC airports.

And they got enough gates to have 70 flights at LAX.
 
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SteveXC500
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:29 pm

Rumor has it DL and WN are looking at similar.
 
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dennypayne
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:34 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
UpNAWAy wrote:


Because flying routes that always loose money even in boom times just to be in the market is a bad idea!

And congrats to AA for reducing its costs in NYC but let’s treat this as what it is; a retreat. People are talking about AA “swinging for the fences” when this is the opposite of that.


In the end if AA only flies to JFK from Hubs with mainline, operates a bunch of regionals for the small NE cities and greatly increases international flying out of JFK all while making a profit is not retreating in any way, but a huge win and success. It is called smart and strategic business thinking! The airline business is not about market share, that has always been the dumbest idea ever! No other businesses have huge, never ending, guaranteed loss leaders just to say they sell to a certain area.
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MKIAZ
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:35 pm

maverick4002 wrote:
Anyone have insight as to why specifically NYC - Athens and Tel Aviv are included in this announcement. What specifically about this partnership makes those two routes viable now, and not before? And why those two routes and not idk, JFK-IST (just as a generic example)


TLV has insane demand to NYC and it's out of range of the LR variants of the 321 which B6 has on order. WIth B6's feed they should be able to get very good yields on TLV. As for ATH, no clue.
 
onwFan
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:38 pm

tphuang wrote:
MrPeanut wrote:
I think AA is planning on significantly downsizing both coasts in lieu of these partnerships. It’s no secret they struggled on the west coast (enter Alaska) and dropped all those JFK slots (enter JetBlue). AA is going to be much smaller after Covid-19, so it appears their plan is to draw down those unprofitable west coast / northeast flying in lieu of partnerships.

Yep. It was obvious 3 months ago this was going to their strategy. I don't see what other choices they had. Frankly, JetBlue management did a good job here in getting AA to agree to this.

Midwestindy wrote:
I don't think AA is giving B6 any gates in LAX, since this is a Northeast partnership.

Well, JetBlue just got enough gates at T-5 to have 70 flights. So at minimum, AA is allowing JetBlue to stay at T-5 and take over gates from ULCCs as they get moves to MSC. Which means, AA themselves are not taking those same gates.

Brickell305 wrote:
They've announced firm plans (announced schedule of expanded service) to grow in EWR. Outside of that, they haven't done any of that. In LAX, they shifted their current operations from LGB to LAX. They said they hoped to get the station to 70 flights a day within 5 years. Nothing firm announced. Re JFK/LGA/BOS, what firm plans have been announced?


Did you miss the 4 routes they added out of jFK (3 of which are their largest missing routes out of JFK) and 2 routes they added out of LGA in the same announcement?

https://crankyflier.com/2020/07/16/amer ... rtnership/
"JetBlue could grow beyond its tiny presence at LaGuardia by utilizing gates and slots that American might not need."

Looks like they are already utilizing slots that AA doesn't need with 2 new routes to TPA/RSW.

Look, utilizing gates AA might not need. JetBlue right now has 16 flights out of 6 gates. So they are going to get so many additional slots at LGA that they would need additional gates? MAT should be able to handle 30 to 35 flights. So looks like AA is going to give JetBlue at least 20 slots to add flights at LGA. Remember what I predicted?

Let's not forget AA released 70 JFK slots.

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=69683
"
JetBlue will grow in greater New York City, adding flights at LaGuardia (LGA) and Newark (EWR), while also increasing its presence at JFK for seamless connections to American’s expanded international network.
...
As New York’s Hometown Airline®, JetBlue plans to increase flying out of New York’s three major airports, bringing its award-winning experience to more customers. Its growth at JFK will be aimed at offering even more connection opportunities to American’s growing international network of destinations. From both New York and Boston, JetBlue plans to enhance service to strategic markets, including those on the East Coast, West Coast, and in the Southeast. This will further build on JetBlue’s recently announced growth between EWR and nine markets, including Mint service to LAX and SFO.
"
Oh look, they are adding more flights at LGA, EWR and JFK on top of what they already announced. They are going to add more connection opportunities to AA's JFK international flights. Which means, more destinations expected.

How much more clear can they be? Huge expansion coming at all 3 major NYC airports.

And they got enough gates to have 70 flights at LAX.

B6 did not need AA’s permission to stay at T5. AA’s lease only allowed them to have preferential access to a maximum of 10 gates in T5. If anything, AA may now be willing to share some of those with B6.
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2363
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:39 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
I honestly feel despite the industry literally burning to the ground that AA is taking the "go big or go home approach" for the future while DL and UA have turtled into their shell.

DL and UA seem focused on trying to navigate the next 9 months, meanwhile AA is like ah screw it who cares about the rest of 2020 and early 2021 we are focused on Summer 2021 and beyond at this point.


AA has so much debt (especially compared to UA and DL), they can't hide in their shell. Time will tell if it works - I think it may. But when things get better, DL and UA are in much better financial positions to reassert themselves.
 
MKIAZ
Posts: 279
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:39 pm

Seems to me something's gotta give with AA's 321T fleet. Either being refitted to a more standard config (maybe with some lie flat business still) or sold - potentially to B6 who is going to need more planes for all this expansion.
 
Philly65
Posts: 94
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:52 pm

Massive divestitures will be required and I doubt it will make this venture worthwhile. Plus layer job losses etc.. Southwest and others will be lining up for NYC slots. Then you have the JFK vs PHL question. JFK would be the victor but who steps up for PHL? Southwest?
 
Tack
Posts: 90
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:53 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
I don’t see why AA people are viewing this as good news. It seems more to me like AA is giving up on competing in NYC on its own and is willing to outsource (not entirely obviously) domestic to B6 while it brings international to the table.

It did the same with AS where it realized it could not build a West Coast transpacific hub on its own and therefore partnered with AS in SEA.


You are totally missing the point. Us AAflyers like this because to us, OW is the most valuable alliance out there. The benefits and carriers far exceed the other two. For us AAflyers, network is why we stick with AA. For my business this allows me to stay locked into one alliance, it provides me everything I need to sell my service in every part of the world and rewards me with services that add immense value to my flying experience. Certainly, YMWV. But I’ll say many of us put up with AA because as an Emerald in OW it works very well. UA and DL lovers can spin it anyway they want, but the bottom line, the AAdvantage program and thus, my OW Emerald status just got better.
Last edited by Tack on Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OA412
Moderator
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:53 pm

I think people are getting WAY ahead of themselves choosing winners and losers here. UA has a large hub at EWR to feed its flights. DL has a split operation between LGA and JFK. The key in both cases is that they are not relying on partners to feed their flights. Both of the carriers are able to control pricing and scheduling because it's all "in house." AA is going to have to rely on a partner with whom it cannot coordinate pricing or scheduling to feed it's flights, just like in SEA. This may work out very well for AA, or it may blow up in their face. Time will tell, but if I were a betting man, I'd be betting on UA and DL right now, not AA. UA and DL aren't going down without a fight in NYC.

And let's be honest, AA is going to shrink in the NE as a result of this partnership. They've been flailing at JFK for years. They didn't announce this partnership because they suddenly want to grow. They want a stronger foothold in the NYC market like they once enjoyed, and they knew their only option was to partner with B6. AA is likely going to shrink its own operation in NYC and BOS and rely more heavily on B6.

maverick4002 wrote:
Anyone have insight as to why specifically NYC - Athens and Tel Aviv are included in this announcement. What specifically about this partnership makes those two routes viable now, and not before? And why those two routes and not idk, JFK-IST (just as a generic example)

Well JFK-ATH was one of the only seasonal routes (perhaps the only one) that DL was planning on bringing back this summer, so I have to assume that means it does fairly well. AA already flies ORD-ATH and PHL-ATH, so I'm assuming their customers were requesting a JFK flight. IST isn't going to happen on a US airline anytime soon given the hometown carriers tendency to price dump. The US airlines can't compete with that.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
ScottB
Posts: 6995
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:55 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Didn't American warn it will lay off people? Can't this be considered outsourcing future growth in the Northeast at the detriment of those being convinced that furloughs are inevitable?


The optics here are really ugly with respect to AA's labor groups. Essentially AA has signaled they are throwing in the towel in non-hub domestic markets from NYC and handing over those customers to B6 while also announcing tens of thousands of layoffs. And the benefit to AA is feed for a couple of new long-haul flights, one of which is seasonal (along with another which will run for a month or two). They announced B6 will grow at LGA -- the source of that growth will be AA's slots. And FWIW, they're still competing with their own connections over PHL for long-haul, but giving the domestic feed to B6 at JFK. It feels like near-total capitulation on AA's part, although obviously NYC hasn't worked for them in years (and never was going to work with the America West guys running the show).

Midwestindy wrote:
In case you missed it AA is expanding long-haul from NYC, and upguaging 50 seaters at NYC


It's not entirely clear they are actually upgauging at NYC. They said more two-class RJs are joining the fleet, but they weren't specific about flying them from NYC. Plus I really have to wonder about the impact on scope with a massive reduction in AA's mainline flying. They may end up increasing gauge in markets B6 won't serve from LGA but that will partly be necessary due to handing B6 slots at that airport. Or, as others have speculated, two-class RJs might well replace mainline flights at LGA -- on the Shuttle, for example.
 
MAH4546
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:56 pm

Philly65 wrote:
Massive divestitures will be required and I doubt it will make this venture worthwhile. Plus layer job losses etc.. Southwest and others will be lining up for NYC slots. Then you have the JFK vs PHL question. JFK would be the victor but who steps up for PHL? Southwest?


Zero divestitures will be required. This is a fancy interline agreement.

People are reading WAY too in on this. This relationship also has nothing to do with LAX and AA isn’t giving up gates to JetBlue at LAX. The Eagle’s Nest terminal at LAX has been gutted and AA needs T5 gates to consolidate from the loss of those nine gates.

Also I see certain poster spreading the lie again that AA gave up 70 JFK slots with zero proof.
a.
 
Philly65
Posts: 94
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:00 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Philly65 wrote:
Massive divestitures will be required and I doubt it will make this venture worthwhile. Plus layer job losses etc.. Southwest and others will be lining up for NYC slots. Then you have the JFK vs PHL question. JFK would be the victor but who steps up for PHL? Southwest?


Zero divestitures will be required. This is a fancy interline agreement.

People are reading WAY too in on this. This relationship also has nothing to do with LAX and AA isn’t giving up gates to JetBlue at LAX. The Eagle’s Nest terminal at LAX has been gutted and AA needs T5 gates to consolidate from the loss of those nine gates.

Also I see certain poster spreading the lie again that AA gave up 70 JFK slots with zero proof.


A fancy interline agreement that reduces competition without massive divestitures.
 
onwFan
Posts: 447
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:02 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:04 pm

OA412 wrote:
I think people are getting WAY ahead of themselves choosing winners and losers here. UA has a large hub at EWR to feed its flights. DL has a split operation between LGA and JFK. The key in both cases is that they are not relying on partners to feed their flights. Both of the carriers are able to control pricing and scheduling because it's all "in house." AA is going to have to rely on a partner with whom it cannot coordinate pricing or scheduling to feed it's flights, just like in SEA. This may work out very well for AA, or it may blow up in their face. Time will tell, but if I were a betting man, I'd be betting on UA and DL right now, not AA. UA and DL aren't going down without a fight in NYC.

And let's be honest, AA is going to shrink in the NE as a result of this partnership. They've been flailing at JFK for years. They didn't announce this partnership because they suddenly want to grow. They want a stronger foothold in the NYC market like they once enjoyed, and they knew their only option was to partner with B6. AA is likely going to shrink its own operation in NYC and BOS and rely more heavily on B6.

maverick4002 wrote:
Anyone have insight as to why specifically NYC - Athens and Tel Aviv are included in this announcement. What specifically about this partnership makes those two routes viable now, and not before? And why those two routes and not idk, JFK-IST (just as a generic example)

Well JFK-ATH was one of the only seasonal routes (perhaps the only one) that DL was planning on bringing back this summer, so I have to assume that means it does fairly well. AA already flies ORD-ATH and PHL-ATH, so I'm assuming their customers were requesting a JFK flight. IST isn't going to happen on a US airline anytime soon given the hometown carriers tendency to price dump. The US airlines can't compete with that.

Again, you seem to miss the point. It is not as if AA is announcing some massive expansion that could ‘blow up on their face’. None of the carriers are investing big money into anything. The flights were already there. They are merely saying you can now connect between them, and earn points. AA was not big in NYC or BOS but had a large FF base, for historical reasons. Now, they decided to just offer their FFs more options than restrict. At a time when all 3 carriers are going to be loss-making, they will get mutual help to reduce that, not hurt.
 
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SANFan
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:04 pm

I'm curious if AA will continue (or restart) serving JFK-SAN or if this ancient route will "officially" be turned over to the Folks in Blue?

Follow up question: if AA does vacate JFK-SAN, will AS finally jump in and start flying it?

bb
 
SUNCTRY738
Posts: 138
Joined: Sun May 14, 2017 3:39 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:04 pm

Seems like a real inconsistent product domestically for sure between B6 and AA. I wouldn't want to be the B6 flyer that ends up booked on an AA codeshare flight.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26228
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Philly65 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Philly65 wrote:
Massive divestitures will be required and I doubt it will make this venture worthwhile. Plus layer job losses etc.. Southwest and others will be lining up for NYC slots. Then you have the JFK vs PHL question. JFK would be the victor but who steps up for PHL? Southwest?


Zero divestitures will be required. This is a fancy interline agreement.

People are reading WAY too in on this. This relationship also has nothing to do with LAX and AA isn’t giving up gates to JetBlue at LAX. The Eagle’s Nest terminal at LAX has been gutted and AA needs T5 gates to consolidate from the loss of those nine gates.

Also I see certain poster spreading the lie again that AA gave up 70 JFK slots with zero proof.


A fancy interline agreement that reduces competition without massive divestitures.


Interline agreements aren’t competition. Airlines don’t even need to seek approval for interline. There’s zero proof that competition is being reduced, just a bunch of A.netters and their per usual inane theories.
a.
 
Philly65
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:08 pm

SANFan wrote:
I'm curious if AA will continue (or restart) serving JFK-SAN or if this ancient route will "officially" be turned over to the Folks in Blue?

Follow up question: if AA does vacate JFK-SAN, will AS finally jump in and start flying it?

bb


Exactly. There is quite some overlap and competitive issues here, including access to slots and gates. Would've been more productive for B6 to discuss a relationship with AS. Maybe Parker views this as part of his exit plan. Time will tell.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:09 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I wonder if AA will further scale back in FLL and PBI while concentrate on MIA. B6 could build more prescence in FLL and PBI.


How much more can AA scale back at FLL and PBI? It’s just service to a few hubs.

tphuang wrote:
http://blog.jetblue.com/american-airlines-agreement-faqs/ wrote:
Will these flights be sold as American Airlines flights or JetBlue Flights?
JetBlue flights in the selected markets will be sold on aa.com as JetBlue flights.


Interesting that you will be able to but JetBlue flights on AA.com, but can't earn points on them. The email I got from TrueBlue does seem to indicate they are working on that.

I'm also confused on the wording. Does that also mean B6 won't be selling AA, while AA will be selling B6?

I think that means as usual, JetBlue IT is terrible.[/quote]

AA’s IT isn’t far behind.

Surely there has to be a reciprocal FF arrangement in the works? Otherwise this is basically just a glorified resumption of an interline agreement that existed years ago. This is great for the airlines themselves but without the FF reciprocity the utility is limited for passengers.
 
Philly65
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:10 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Philly65 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:

Zero divestitures will be required. This is a fancy interline agreement.

People are reading WAY too in on this. This relationship also has nothing to do with LAX and AA isn’t giving up gates to JetBlue at LAX. The Eagle’s Nest terminal at LAX has been gutted and AA needs T5 gates to consolidate from the loss of those nine gates.

Also I see certain poster spreading the lie again that AA gave up 70 JFK slots with zero proof.


A fancy interline agreement that reduces competition without massive divestitures.


Interline agreements aren’t competition. Airlines don’t even need to seek approval for interline. There’s zero proof that competition is being reduced, just a bunch of A.netters and their per usual inane theories.

oh, okay. Whatever you say.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5224
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:10 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
Rumor has it DL and WN are looking at similar.

WN's pilot contract would be a big obstacle. They have a more stringent scope clause than B6's pilot contract.

MKIAZ wrote:
maverick4002 wrote:
Anyone have insight as to why specifically NYC - Athens and Tel Aviv are included in this announcement. What specifically about this partnership makes those two routes viable now, and not before? And why those two routes and not idk, JFK-IST (just as a generic example)


TLV has insane demand to NYC and it's out of range of the LR variants of the 321 which B6 has on order. WIth B6's feed they should be able to get very good yields on TLV. As for ATH, no clue.

I don't know if they need JetBlue feed. I think this just gave JetBlue customers more reason to pick AA instead of DL to ATH/TLV.

Philly65 wrote:
Massive divestitures will be required and I doubt it will make this venture worthwhile. Plus layer job losses etc.. Southwest and others will be lining up for NYC slots. Then you have the JFK vs PHL question. JFK would be the victor but who steps up for PHL? Southwest?

you are over thinking this. JFK slots are already widely up for grab. Not just those AA slots. I doubt DL will come close to using its slots anytime soon.

Divestiture is unlikely to be needed here if AA/AS partnership didn't result in any divestiture. And that partnership is more involved. There is no JV here.

onwFan wrote:
B6 did not need AA’s permission to stay at T5. AA’s lease only allowed them to have preferential access to a maximum of 10 gates in T5. If anything, AA may now be willing to share some of those with B6.

I think JetBlue is getting more than 5 total gates if they are planning 70 flights a day (they need at least 7 or 8 I think). i'm sure more news will come out in the next couple of years, but I'd be surprised here if AA wasn't involved in this discussion.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 652
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:13 pm

MKIAZ wrote:
Seems to me something's gotta give with AA's 321T fleet. Either being refitted to a more standard config (maybe with some lie flat business still) or sold - potentially to B6 who is going to need more planes for all this expansion.


Read AA's press release again, it specifically mentioned A321T would be complementary on flagship transcon route to Jetblue's MINT service.

B6 is not going to take over AA's A321T, and AA is not doing anything to its A321T as its contract with the entertainment industry requires a full service First class. AA has a great product in A321T and it got the balance just right. B6's MINT is wonderful but it is not replacement to AA A321T's Flagship First.
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