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CobaltScar
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:47 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
A merger with B6 would destroy whatever B6 has going for it. Parker would turn it into an ULCC over night and labor relations would be beyond sour.


Yeah they or a ULCC would be a disaster for B6. Hopefully they stay very broke and in no position to buy anyone.
 
PHLspecial
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:10 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
A merger with B6 would destroy whatever B6 has going for it. Parker would turn it into an ULCC over night and labor relations would be beyond sour.


Yeah they or a ULCC would be a disaster for B6. Hopefully they stay very broke and in no position to buy anyone.

We are we talking about mergers? Anet is weird you want competition but then you want mergers...
 
winginit
Posts: 2934
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:14 pm

gaystudpilot wrote:
AA+AS+B6 partnership has the potential to drive loyalty away from others, for example, specifically DL in SEA, JFL/LGA and BOS. Agree that they can’t coordinate schedules and pricing and will not benefit from reducing redundant inefficiencies that could be addressed via a merger. However, strengthening market share in key markets and potentially weakening competitors’ position is still valuable.


But there is no AA+AS+B6 partnership. There is an AA+AS partnership which serves the purpose of SEA feed to AA INTL, and then there is a separate AA+B6 partnership, which serves the different purpose of an NYC presence. On top of that, all three of those mentioned carriers are still competitors, full stop. This will unquestionably chip away at DL's market share in SEA, LAX, and NYC, no doubt, but this doesn't make AA some powerhouse in any of those markets.

gaystudpilot wrote:
Again, I doubt this will receive much DOJ scrutiny. The airline industry will be in an ugly place in 2021. Even a threeway merger will not receive much scrutiny.

Will AA be successful? We don’t know. They have a lot of challenges. They could very well fumble. But the potential upside is very attractive.


Agreed.

kavok wrote:
One key difference between AA+B6 and AA+AS is how the partnership impacts networks.

The AA+B6 isn’t likely to result in many situations where AA and B6 “trade routes”, not that they are legally allowed to coordinate anyway.
The main benefit to AA is that B6 can provide feed to 1) AA’s TATL flights from BOS/JFK and 2) feed to AA/Eagle on flights to smaller cities B6 doesn’t serve. The main benefit to B6 is that now B6 frequent flyers have better access to international destinations and small domestic cities. And while that is great for both, it doesn’t really change the network structure much.

Unlike AA+B6, AA+AS will fundamentally change each airline’s scope of service from a key airport (LAX). For that reason, the AS partnership is probably more meaningful to AA. Put simply, AA was flying to a lot of smaller cities from LAX that they didn’t want to serve. Conversely, AS benefits from flying to LAX from those same small west coast cities, but didn’t add them earlier because AS didn’t want to get into a battle with AA over them. The AA+AS partnership allows AA to shrink LAX, and thus allows AS to grow LAX. Thus AA+AS will be more impactful as a whole, but B6+AA is still obviously beneficial to both too.


Very well said.

MKIAZ wrote:
I mean it's not rocket science. You cut out the flights that lose money and suddenly you're profitable. Of course, then you're also giving up market share to competitors which tends to cause local FF's to switch to a competitor, which tends to cause your remaining flights to start losing money, resulting in more cuts, ect. It's a cycle.


Eh, it really isn't that simple though when it comes to cutting loss-making routes. AA doesn't have the fleet flexibility that say DL does (or at least did, that's quickly changing for DL as well). These are not older, paid off aircraft that they can just store in the desert for a marginal cost. These are in many cases brand new, debt-financed aircraft that you need to keep in the air even if it means flying at a loss when the alternative is storing a new, expensive, depreciating asset at a pure loss without any revenue generation whatsoever.
 
CaptCoolHand
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:27 pm

klm617 wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
klm617 wrote:


So I'm confused if AA and B6 can't coadunate schedules with each other how are all these connection carriers able to achieve that. It's been done for eons NW/CO and NW/DL did it as well.

Capacity Purchase Agreements are not the same thing as a Codeshare. You aren’t buying a ticket on SkyWest with their flight that has an American code on it, for example.



Yes but down the road can't B6,AS and AA set the same thing up. B6 and AS operating as AA feeders like Pan Am did with Air Atlanta and Empire.


I thought the same thing when I saw this news.

I hope this doesn't end the same way.
 
raylee67
Posts: 916
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:06 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:38 pm

Does this mean AAdvantage miles can be used to get B6 tickets? including the Mint seats??

This is a great move by AA, snapping up partnership in its weak spots in the network, with AS and B6. It's obviously targeting DL. DL probably needs to spend some time and money to determine what to do with its equity ownership in various airlines worldwide, from LATAM to AM to VS.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
AY LH OU SR BA FI LX
AA DL UA NW AC CP WS FL NK PD
CI NH SQ KA CX JL BR OZ TG KE CA CZ NZ JQ RS
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:41 pm

winginit wrote:
But there is no AA+AS+B6 partnership. There is an AA+AS partnership which serves the purpose of SEA feed to AA INTL, and then there is a separate AA+B6 partnership, which serves the different purpose of an NYC presence. On top of that, all three of those mentioned carriers are still competitors, full stop. This will unquestionably chip away at DL's market share in SEA, LAX, and NYC, no doubt, but this doesn't make AA some powerhouse in any of those markets.


Agree. I’m getting ahead.

Now: AA<->AS and AA<->B6 (within legal parameters)

Next: AA<->AS<->B6<->AA (within legal parameters)

Eventually: AA+AS+B6 (single entity)


I think these partnerships do more than “chip away” at DL in SEA, LAX and NYC. I do not think it makes AA a powerhouse. I think it *potentially* makes AA<->AS in SEA and LAX and AA<->B6 in BOS and NYC a powerhouse. AA can absolutely fumble this.
 
winginit
Posts: 2934
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:48 pm

gaystudpilot wrote:
winginit wrote:
But there is no AA+AS+B6 partnership. There is an AA+AS partnership which serves the purpose of SEA feed to AA INTL, and then there is a separate AA+B6 partnership, which serves the different purpose of an NYC presence. On top of that, all three of those mentioned carriers are still competitors, full stop. This will unquestionably chip away at DL's market share in SEA, LAX, and NYC, no doubt, but this doesn't make AA some powerhouse in any of those markets.


Agree. I’m getting ahead.

Now: AA<->AS and AA<->B6 (within legal parameters)

Next: AA<->AS<->B6<->AA (within legal parameters)

Eventually: AA+AS+B6 (single entity)


So your assumption is that long-term this will result in a three-way merger between AA, AS, and B6? Because shy of that, there are no legal parameters which allow for any sort of pricing or schedule coordination between any of the three carriers and pilot scope clauses are going to make even codeshare controversial internally at a time when pilots are going to be as sensitive as they've ever been with mass furloughs across all carriers.

raylee67 wrote:
This is a great move by AA, snapping up partnership in its weak spots in the network, with AS and B6. It's obviously targeting DL. DL probably needs to spend some time and money to determine what to do with its equity ownership in various airlines worldwide, from LATAM to AM to VS.


It is increasingly likely as LATAM, AM, and VS all restructure that DL's equity ownership in all three will be diluted to the point of no longer impactful.
Last edited by winginit on Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:51 pm

gaystudpilot wrote:
winginit wrote:
But there is no AA+AS+B6 partnership. There is an AA+AS partnership which serves the purpose of SEA feed to AA INTL, and then there is a separate AA+B6 partnership, which serves the different purpose of an NYC presence. On top of that, all three of those mentioned carriers are still competitors, full stop. This will unquestionably chip away at DL's market share in SEA, LAX, and NYC, no doubt, but this doesn't make AA some powerhouse in any of those markets.


Agree. I’m getting ahead.

Now: AA<->AS and AA<->B6 (within legal parameters)

Next: AA<->AS<->B6<->AA (within legal parameters)

Eventually: AA+AS+B6 (single entity)


I realize the rules are going to change dramatically during and after COVID, but won't AA + AS + B6 still be far too large to be approved as a merger? To compete with that domestically, you would almost need to see UA and DL merge, and possibly see WN merge with two or more LCCs (now that's a scary thought). Perhaps we are headed that way, and they are just planting the seeds, but wowza, that getting approved would almost assuredly lead to another round of super consolidations.
 
winginit
Posts: 2934
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:56 pm

flyfresno wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:
winginit wrote:
But there is no AA+AS+B6 partnership. There is an AA+AS partnership which serves the purpose of SEA feed to AA INTL, and then there is a separate AA+B6 partnership, which serves the different purpose of an NYC presence. On top of that, all three of those mentioned carriers are still competitors, full stop. This will unquestionably chip away at DL's market share in SEA, LAX, and NYC, no doubt, but this doesn't make AA some powerhouse in any of those markets.


Agree. I’m getting ahead.

Now: AA<->AS and AA<->B6 (within legal parameters)

Next: AA<->AS<->B6<->AA (within legal parameters)

Eventually: AA+AS+B6 (single entity)


I realize the rules are going to change dramatically during and after COVID, but won't AA + AS + B6 still be far too large to be approved as a merger? To compete with that domestically, you would almost need to see UA and DL merge, and possibly see WN merge with two or more LCCs (now that's a scary thought). Perhaps we are headed that way, and they are just planting the seeds, but wowza, that getting approved would almost assuredly lead to another round of super consolidations.


It depends on both the administration and the health of the industry at the time of such an action, but in so many words yes. Using just round numbers from peak 2019 schedules, such a merger would give the combined AA+AS+B6 roughly 31% of domestic market share measured by seat capacity compared to 21% for DL, 20% for WN, and 16% for UA. It's too much.

Spoiler alert though - a three way merger between AA, AS, and B6 isn't happening.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:59 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
A merger with B6 would destroy whatever B6 has going for it. Parker would turn it into an ULCC over night and labor relations would be beyond sour.


Yeah they or a ULCC would be a disaster for B6. Hopefully they stay very broke and in no position to buy anyone.

We are we talking about mergers? Anet is weird you want competition but then you want mergers...


Some of us don't want competition at all, but a return to the golden age before deregulation when the airlines actually provided good jobs instead of just for CEOs and Pilots.

So yeah, bring on all the mergers.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:08 pm

winginit wrote:
So your assumption is that long-term this will result in a three-way merger between AA, AS, and B6? Because shy of that, there are no legal parameters which allow for any sort of pricing or schedule coordination between any of the three carriers and pilot scope clauses are going to make even codeshare controversial internally at a time when pilots are going to be as sensitive as they've ever been with mass furloughs across all carriers.


1. My belief is this is only a first step in the strategy. Barring collapse of AA, there will be a threeway merger between AA, AS and B6 by the end of 2024

2. AA could be very successful with this or completely fumble the opportunity

3. I understand there can be no pricing and scheduling coordination, hence “within legal parameters — there is still value to be gained from the two partnerships while working within legal parameters
 
flyby519
Posts: 1575
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:12 pm

gaystudpilot wrote:
winginit wrote:
So your assumption is that long-term this will result in a three-way merger between AA, AS, and B6? Because shy of that, there are no legal parameters which allow for any sort of pricing or schedule coordination between any of the three carriers and pilot scope clauses are going to make even codeshare controversial internally at a time when pilots are going to be as sensitive as they've ever been with mass furloughs across all carriers.


1. My belief is this is only a first step in the strategy. Barring collapse of AA, there will be a threeway merger between AA, AS and B6 by the end of 2024

2. AA could be very successful with this or completely fumble the opportunity

3. I understand there can be no pricing and scheduling coordination, hence “within legal parameters — there is still value to be gained from the two partnerships while working within legal parameters


I’d argue that for the 3-way merger to be desirable there would need to be a bankruptcy filing by AA first, along with shedding debt, then a joint plan of reorganization by AS/B6. A long shot indeed.
 
BNAMealer
Posts: 915
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:23 pm

So if AA/AS/B6 merge, that would mean DL/UA would likely merge as well.

Then the US would have two mega legacies and a bunch of LCC/ULCC’s. Not sure if that would be good or bad
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3627
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:25 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
JeremyXWB wrote:
Sounds like AA is trying to take on DL in Seattle, Boston and New York

It sounds more like AA is weak on the West Coast and needed a partner to help them so went with AS who is strong domestically while AA brings international flights to the table. And the same occurred in NYC where AA has been struggling as of late and therefore sought out a partner who helps them significantly domestically while AA brings the international markets to the table.



USAir bought out PSA tears ago & American bought out AirCal. Both airlines that are now 1 wasted the 2 largest west coast operators.They could have been #1 in California, but they dropped route & wasted their lead. Now they can't keep up with WN. It's theri own fault they are weak on the west coast.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:28 pm

winginit wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
I realize the rules are going to change dramatically during and after COVID, but won't AA + AS + B6 still be far too large to be approved as a merger? To compete with that domestically, you would almost need to see UA and DL merge, and possibly see WN merge with two or more LCCs (now that's a scary thought). Perhaps we are headed that way, and they are just planting the seeds, but wowza, that getting approved would almost assuredly lead to another round of super consolidations.


It depends on both the administration and the health of the industry at the time of such an action, but in so many words yes. Using just round numbers from peak 2019 schedules, such a merger would give the combined AA+AS+B6 roughly 31% of domestic market share measured by seat capacity compared to 21% for DL, 20% for WN, and 16% for UA. It's too much.

Spoiler alert though - a three way merger between AA, AS, and B6 isn't happening.


Ahh. There’s the point of difference. I agree if we were in 2019.

The premise of my argument is that the industry will be in a very different place in 2021 and will be *lucky* if it returns to 75% of pre-2020 levels by 2024.

In 2021 all AA, AS and B6 will be in precarious situations with way more capacity, assets and infrastructure than needed and unable to efficiently operate on a much smaller scale within a configuration designed for larger operations. The pitch will be about survival — more will be saved with the three together than letting one fail — and positioning for growth (and therefore jobs and profits for investors) post 2024.

Could there be some divestitures to get approval? Sure. But approval will be much easier than it would have been in 2019.

I have a different POV and therefore believe it could happen.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:35 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
So if AA/AS/B6 merge, that would mean DL/UA would likely merge as well.

Then the US would have two mega legacies and a bunch of LCC/ULCC’s. Not sure if that would be good or bad


The two partnerships (AA+AS and AA+B6) will likely lead to additional partnerships to protect market share.

If AA, AS and B6 merge it will likely lead to further consolidation in the industry.

WN is probably very popular at the dance.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 2487
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:44 pm

Seems like AA elites will have the best of three worlds with respect to this threesome.

    AS elites earn/redeem on both AS and AA
    B6 elites earn/redeem on both B6 and AA
    AA elites earn/redeem on all three.

Seems like a no-brainer for all to switch to AA, unless I am missing something.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:46 pm

gaystudpilot wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
So if AA/AS/B6 merge, that would mean DL/UA would likely merge as well.

Then the US would have two mega legacies and a bunch of LCC/ULCC’s. Not sure if that would be good or bad


The two partnerships (AA+AS and AA+B6) will likely lead to additional partnerships to protect market share.

If AA, AS and B6 merge it will likely lead to further consolidation in the industry.

WN is probably very popular at the dance.


I'm not so sure WN would want to merge with UA or DL; doing so would completely dissolve their business model. Perhaps WN might have to merge out of necessity, but I see DL and UA as much more likely consolidation partners should AA merge with both AS and B6 (they would, however, probably need to divest quite a few overlapping int'l routes, drop some slots at places like LHR and HND, etc). And, then, would WN really want to merge with anyone that's left after that, besides maybe Hawaiian?
 
cpl22586
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:39 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:05 pm

I guarantee that a merger between AA AS and B6 will never happen. The Department Of Justice would never allow it since it would take away so much competition. Basically would only be left with AA, SW, DAL, UA. Seems like everyone what's everybody to merge so we are left with one national carrier
 
Wings396
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:00 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:29 pm

cpl22586 wrote:
I guarantee that a merger between AA AS and B6 will never happen. The Department Of Justice would never allow it since it would take away so much competition. Basically would only be left with AA, SW, DAL, UA. Seems like everyone what's everybody to merge so we are left with one national carrier



I think that you're forgetting that the entire industry is in a much different environment than they were during the previous merger mania era. It's all about survival now, and I don't think that the DOJ is going to be as concerned as they previously were about mergers. All of the airlines are going to come out of this situation much smaller than they were, so mergers are only going to get them back to where they were prior to the pandemic. I doubt that the government wants to keep pumping money into the industry, not do they want to see thousands more unemployed should any airlines fail.
 
winginit
Posts: 2934
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:30 pm

cpl22586 wrote:
I guarantee that a merger between AA AS and B6 will never happen. The Department Of Justice would never allow it since it would take away so much competition. Basically would only be left with AA, SW, DAL, UA. Seems like everyone what's everybody to merge so we are left with one national carrier


Agreed. Especially in a Democratic administration which, politics aside, is the more statistically likely outcome at this point.
 
TW787
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:50 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:52 pm

DMPHL wrote:

IIRC, the main issue with the AA/AS partnership when AS acquired VX was focused on the potential for decreased competition on transcon routes, which AS was acquiring as part of its merger with VX. In order to maintain competition for consumers, AS was required to reduce the scope of its partnership with AA. Someone may correct me if I don't have it exactly right.


Exactly my point, thank you. Reducing codeshare scope improved competition. So therefore increasing codeshare reduces competition.
 
kavok
Posts: 844
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:36 pm

flyfresno wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:
BNAMealer wrote:
So if AA/AS/B6 merge, that would mean DL/UA would likely merge as well.

Then the US would have two mega legacies and a bunch of LCC/ULCC’s. Not sure if that would be good or bad


The two partnerships (AA+AS and AA+B6) will likely lead to additional partnerships to protect market share.

If AA, AS and B6 merge it will likely lead to further consolidation in the industry.

WN is probably very popular at the dance.


I'm not so sure WN would want to merge with UA or DL; doing so would completely dissolve their business model. Perhaps WN might have to merge out of necessity, but I see DL and UA as much more likely consolidation partners should AA merge with both AS and B6 (they would, however, probably need to divest quite a few overlapping int'l routes, drop some slots at places like LHR and HND, etc). And, then, would WN really want to merge with anyone that's left after that, besides maybe Hawaiian?


WN, UA, and DL all have different network models.

WN is more point to point focus, from secondary airports or secondary markets. UAs model is to put hubs in the top 7 largest US markets (plus DEN), and make everyone connect there. DL is a blend of offering point to point flying, focus cities, and primarily relying on interior fortress hubs without congestion issues.

AA is most similar to DL in their network strategy (until the AS/B6 partnerships anyway), and hence why the AA partnerships have been perceived as a threat to DL more than UA.
Last edited by kavok on Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
flyfresno
Posts: 1065
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 6:18 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:39 pm

kavok wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:

The two partnerships (AA+AS and AA+B6) will likely lead to additional partnerships to protect market share.

If AA, AS and B6 merge it will likely lead to further consolidation in the industry.

WN is probably very popular at the dance.


I'm not so sure WN would want to merge with UA or DL; doing so would completely dissolve their business model. Perhaps WN might have to merge out of necessity, but I see DL and UA as much more likely consolidation partners should AA merge with both AS and B6 (they would, however, probably need to divest quite a few overlapping int'l routes, drop some slots at places like LHR and HND, etc). And, then, would WN really want to merge with anyone that's left after that, besides maybe Hawaiian?


WN, UA, and DL all have different network models.

WN is more point to point focus, from secondary airports or secondary markets. UA model is to put hubs in the top 7 largest US markets (plus DEN), and make everyone connect there. DL is a blend of offering point to point flying, and relying on interior fortress hubs without congestion issues.

AA is most similar to DL in their network strategy (until the AS/B6 partnerships anyway), and hence why the AA partnerships have been perceived as a threat to DL more than UA.


I think we have mostly similar points of view, but I think that WN is way further away from DL than DL is from UA.
 
kavok
Posts: 844
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:47 pm

flyfresno wrote:
kavok wrote:
flyfresno wrote:

I'm not so sure WN would want to merge with UA or DL; doing so would completely dissolve their business model. Perhaps WN might have to merge out of necessity, but I see DL and UA as much more likely consolidation partners should AA merge with both AS and B6 (they would, however, probably need to divest quite a few overlapping int'l routes, drop some slots at places like LHR and HND, etc). And, then, would WN really want to merge with anyone that's left after that, besides maybe Hawaiian?


WN, UA, and DL all have different network models.

WN is more point to point focus, from secondary airports or secondary markets. UA model is to put hubs in the top 7 largest US markets (plus DEN), and make everyone connect there. DL is a blend of offering point to point flying, and relying on interior fortress hubs without congestion issues.

AA is most similar to DL in their network strategy (until the AS/B6 partnerships anyway), and hence why the AA partnerships have been perceived as a threat to DL more than UA.


I think we have mostly similar points of view, but I think that WN is way further away from DL than DL is from UA.


Completely agree. There is a reason the term US3 doesn’t include WN, despite WNs large market share. My point is more that AA is most similar to DL in network model.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3340
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:54 pm

tphuang wrote:
I don't think they will operate to DCA/ORD/PHL/BOS. These were mostly down to 1 or 2 flights a day already. Why would they need to keep those around if they got JetBlue doing the feed now? Yes, I do think DCA-JFK on JetBlue is quite possible at this point. PHL is a goner, I'm going to look at this JetBlue thread, but I anticipate JetBlue adding a lot of these within perimeter routes that Eagle operated. if JetBlue is going to make use of AA's JFK slots, it will have to add these type of routes.


I don't think JFK-PHL will come back (did it actually ever operate? ...this was one of the routes where AA kept rolling cuts forward month by month last year...), but I'd be surprised if JFK-ORD gets cut long term. If they cut that one, they lose the ability to efficiently connect most of their relatively vast Midwestern network with JFK, which is bound to be the preferred NY airport for a chunk of passengers. On the flip side, they also make it harder for whatever FF base they have on Long Island (which they presumably expect to grow due to this partnership with B6) to connect to the Midwest and Northwest. JFK-DCA I could also see AA keeping, as that wasn't a 50-seater route and they likely made money on it. Even if it's just something like 1x daily 319 timed to connect to international markets like TLV and GRU/EZE, I think it makes sense for AA to keep a presence there. I could see JFK-BOS getting dropped in favor of codesharing with B6, although I'm not confident enough that I'd put money on it.

I think the rest of the regional network makes sense for AA to drop. Their plans to update T8 as part of co-location with BA indicated they were planning on doing away with the regional gate complex in favor of additional widebody gates, so that seems inevitable.

tphuang wrote:
I don't know where in the Caribbeans they will fly to. Maybe it will be CUN, maybe it will be MBJ, maybe somewhere else. But stuff like SJO/BDA/ANU aren't going to come back. I think they have some sat-only flights to Caribbeans. But amongst daily, I don't see more than 1 destination. Now that AA ff have all of JetBlue's vast Caribbean network, why do they even need to operate their own flight into this region? JetBlue already has so many flights to all the major leisure spots. If you really want to stay on AA, MIA connection takes you everywhere you need to go.


AA network planning made comments that indicated they were doing well on the Caribbean network they still had left pre-COVID (and they backed their words up with decisions like adding JFK-GCM and re-entering JFK-SJO). I think they'll keep a presence there even if it's mostly Saturday-only flights to the likes of SXM, SKB, and ANU.
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
FSDan
Posts: 3340
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:55 pm

What I think a lot of people haven't considered in much of this discussion is that AA has no incentive to drop any route from JFK where they think they can make money. There will be no revenue sharing with B6. Going by pre-COVID statements from Vasu Raja, AA did well on the LAX/SFO transcons, Caribbean leisure routes, and Europe + South America at the very least. I expect they were also doing fine to their other hubs and to certain outside-perimeter destinations like SAT and AUS. The routes that likely were a drag on AA's JFK margins were ones they've already cut such as SEA and MCO, transcons where they weren't competitive with DL and B6 like SAN/LAS, and most of the regional network. Since AA was trying to focus on O&D traffic in New York anyway, it makes a lot of sense for them to cut what wasn't profitable and then codeshare with B6 to improve their network breadth and remain competitive. I wouldn't view that so much as "outsourcing to B6" (since really they have no control over which destinations B6 decides to fly), but rather as doing what they needed to do anyway and trying to make the best of the resulting situation.
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:46 pm

rbavfan wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
JeremyXWB wrote:
Sounds like AA is trying to take on DL in Seattle, Boston and New York

It sounds more like AA is weak on the West Coast and needed a partner to help them so went with AS who is strong domestically while AA brings international flights to the table. And the same occurred in NYC where AA has been struggling as of late and therefore sought out a partner who helps them significantly domestically while AA brings the international markets to the table.



USAir bought out PSA tears ago & American bought out AirCal. Both airlines that are now 1 wasted the 2 largest west coast operators.They could have been #1 in California, but they dropped route & wasted their lead. Now they can't keep up with WN. It's theri own fault they are weak on the west coast.


AA also bought out and trashed Reno Air and the SJC hub as well. But you're right, US did have an extremely strong schedule into LAX after they purchased PSA for most of the 1990s and abandoned it completely. US shut down it's F/A base at LAX around 1999-2000.

BTW: That Plane Perspectives interview article with Vasu is hilarious. He sounds like a mobster but actually seems to know what's going on. Very blunt and too the point.
 
strfyr51
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:36 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but with these partnerships AA+B6/AS will now be the largest carrier in NYC, BOS, LAX, SEA, South Florida, Dallas, DC, PHX, & CLT?

Since they're doing it (they claim) to fend off DL and UA? When did they actually NEED to fend off DL and UA in Boston? and B6 is now in EWR? And AA is fending off Whom? nd AA is the main carrier at PHL with UA and DL at IAD. So what are they now doing? Something is amiss here. B6 can't be doing all they claim of they need AA to cover their backs..
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:25 pm

Vasu today appeared in the AA team member podcast to talk about the B6 deal.

The bottom line is that AA has financially underperformed on the coast and did not see means to organically grow so both AS and B6 deals help make AA more relevant in these key markets and provide a foundation from AA to build from.
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tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:47 pm

FSDan wrote:
What I think a lot of people haven't considered in much of this discussion is that AA has no incentive to drop any route from JFK where they think they can make money. There will be no revenue sharing with B6. Going by pre-COVID statements from Vasu Raja, AA did well on the LAX/SFO transcons, Caribbean leisure routes, and Europe + South America at the very least. I expect they were also doing fine to their other hubs and to certain outside-perimeter destinations like SAT and AUS. The routes that likely were a drag on AA's JFK margins were ones they've already cut such as SEA and MCO, transcons where they weren't competitive with DL and B6 like SAN/LAS, and most of the regional network. Since AA was trying to focus on O&D traffic in New York anyway, it makes a lot of sense for them to cut what wasn't profitable and then codeshare with B6 to improve their network breadth and remain competitive. I wouldn't view that so much as "outsourcing to B6" (since really they have no control over which destinations B6 decides to fly), but rather as doing what they needed to do anyway and trying to make the best of the resulting situation.


I think you are overestimating how well AA was doing on these routes. There was a huge drop in AA's performance at JFK from 2017 to 2019 as they started to chop some of the routes. Sure, the remaining stuff was making money, but their performances were slipping also.

AA and B6 were both in bad situations. DL was getting a lot of AA's ff in NYC and their NYC margin really climbed the last couple of years. I was seeing B6 increasingly getting cornered into a leisure carrier dominated by a larger full service carrier. The only thing saving JetBlue on domestic stuff was mint. AA was increasingly getting into an unsustainable situation.

Using your example of JFK-AUS, that's perfect example of DL's NYC success story. It went from getting around the same yield as AA and JetBlue back in 2015 to getting 30% higher yield than AA and JetBlue. So no, AA definitely wasn't doing well on routes like AUS/SAT. In fact AA had lower yield than DL on JFK-PHX! DL also had a pretty large yield advantage over AA on jFK-ORD although that was probably due to DL operating RJ on that route. Its' hard to justify quantify how much AA's performance out of JFK slid in the last couple of years. Even the hub routes weren't doing that well.

I think COVID gave AA and B6 a lifeline here. B6 can help AA by simply being successful in NYC. And to do that, it needs to complete its JFK network, expand in EWR and add select markets in LGA. AA will hope it can stop losing ff to DL in NYC now that it has a much larger network in NY/NJ area with B6. B6 will hope it can gain ff from everyone as it has more complete network. That alone will make DL less profitable in NYC and give them less resources to win take ff from AA elsewhere.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:49 pm

FSDan wrote:

I don't think JFK-PHL will come back (did it actually ever operate? ...this was one of the routes where AA kept rolling cuts forward month by month last year...), but I'd be surprised if JFK-ORD gets cut long term. If they cut that one, they lose the ability to efficiently connect most of their relatively vast Midwestern network with JFK, which is bound to be the preferred NY airport for a chunk of passengers. On the flip side, they also make it harder for whatever FF base they have on Long Island (which they presumably expect to grow due to this partnership with B6) to connect to the Midwest and Northwest. JFK-DCA I could also see AA keeping, as that wasn't a 50-seater route and they likely made money on it. Even if it's just something like 1x daily 319 timed to connect to international markets like TLV and GRU/EZE, I think it makes sense for AA to keep a presence there. I could see JFK-BOS getting dropped in favor of codesharing with B6, although I'm not confident enough that I'd put money on it.

I think the rest of the regional network makes sense for AA to drop. Their plans to update T8 as part of co-location with BA indicated they were planning on doing away with the regional gate complex in favor of additional widebody gates, so that seems inevitable.



Where do the E175s fit in here? Of which AA has said they will plug more into NYC at the expense of 50 seaters... "Additionally, American said beginning in 2021, it plans to shift more of its short-haul flying from single-class regional jets to ones outfitted with both first class and economy."
https://thepointsguy.co.uk/news/america ... -alliance/

Goes without saying, but if AA is making JFK a complimentary TATL hub to PHL (like they say), you can pretty much count on them to operate DCA/BOS-JFK & obviously ORD-JFK. B6 only serves ORD 2x from NYC total. No reason to drop all these routes unless they lost significant money, as AA won't be able to gain any revenue from B6 flights.

You also have routes like AUS/RDU-JFK, that are important for AA to operate, especially given how much value they have put into those markets. RDU-JFK is also the 2nd largest connecting market for JFK-LHR.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... nal-Routes

Given onward int'l connections, it's basically impossible to get an accurate picture of financials on these domestic routes, unless you have the yield for the int'l leg.
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wnflyguy
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:03 am

hiflyeras wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:
This sets the stage for the eventual next round of consolidation in the industry.

-AA+AS+B6


The question then being, who acquires who? Does AS pull off a HP-style takeover of AA? And B6 is forced to come along for the ride or be left out of the party?


They can call it Jet America since AS holds the legal rights. Hahahahaha

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tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:57 am

LAXintl wrote:
Vasu today appeared in the AA team member podcast to talk about the B6 deal.

The bottom line is that AA has financially underperformed on the coast and did not see means to organically grow so both AS and B6 deals help make AA more relevant in these key markets and provide a foundation from AA to build from.


also saw this from an AA pilot
Listen to Vasu, jfk long haul never made money. They are going to see if this works before pulling it down completely.


JFK was really terrible for AA. Aside from JV with BA and LAX, basically everything didn't do that well. The within perimeter stuff on Eagle had terrible yield numbers (just looking at fare number and load factor) and they connected to LH flights that "never made money". This was their last attempt to stay relevant in NY. It was either this or just pull out completely with no replacement. Apparently, the talks started pre-COVID and picked up at COVID.

That means, AA realized:
1) They didn't have money to burn at NYC anymore
2) They were going to lose slot for nothing once slot waiver ends, so might as well let a partner do those flights.
3) building up JetBlue will make DL and UA's lives hard in Northeast.

Just look at what they were willing to give to JetBlue assuming code share and ff benefits are established. The first 2 are huge by the way.
- A domestic network that JetBlue customers can use to get to places that JetBlue doesn't fly to and still earn TrueBlue miles
- Interline/re-protection relationship that JetBlue needed so it can place its customer can get where they need to go in IRROP.
- An international network that JetBlue customers can fly to and earn TrueBlue miles
- More slots at JFK
- More slots and gates at LGA
- Help at EWR, probably entailing gate access if JetBlue ever becomes constrained there
- Access to AA network and ff in all these markets + BOS

The biggest complaints about JetBlue has always been that they don't fly to all the places where people need to go and you can't trust them if you have to got somewhere. There are so many people that don't fly with JetBlue for these 2 reasons. That's what partnership with AA solves.

Now, they will have that and also the slot/gate space to become as large or larger than UA/DL in NY/NJ. Again, if this works out, that would be good for AA. But at the same time, they just created a whole new competitor that also flies internationally and has much better product. What would be the reason for AA ff to stay with AA in NY and Boston once JetBlue has the network and solves the IRROPS issues? What happens when the large finance and law firms in Northeast decide to put JetBlue on the same level as the big 3 in corporate trravel on these premium transcon and TATL flights?

I'm sure AA isn't blind to these things. So it still went ahead with it anyways. This isn't about having a second TATL hub. It's about keeping its corporate contract that require certain level of service out of NYC. While also help it retain its ff in Northeast. Remember, a big complaint about AA in NYC is that it doesn't fly to leisure destinations. With this partnership, it's ff can go anywhere on JetBlue and earn miles. There is a reason Vasu explicitly mentioned Florida in the press release.

So unless the routes was at least system average pre-COVID, there is no reason keeping them in an environment where yields are sure to be low for a few years. There is a reason why they have only brought back LAX/SFO/PHX/MIA/CLT/LHR/CUN so far. Those are the routes that did at least system average well.
 
Prost
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:47 am

All this talk of merger makes my head spin. I’m just hoping all the airlines are flying by this time next year. And if there is a merger, I hope the HQ is in Seattle with AS management.
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:54 am

Prost wrote:
All this talk of merger makes my head spin. I’m just hoping all the airlines are flying by this time next year.


They won’t be. Too much capacity/assets/infrastructure chasing too little demand. The industry will be lucky if it returns to 75% of pre-2020 levels by 2024. Hence another round of consolidation.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:58 am

winginit wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:
winginit wrote:
But there is no AA+AS+B6 partnership. There is an AA+AS partnership which serves the purpose of SEA feed to AA INTL, and then there is a separate AA+B6 partnership, which serves the different purpose of an NYC presence. On top of that, all three of those mentioned carriers are still competitors, full stop. This will unquestionably chip away at DL's market share in SEA, LAX, and NYC, no doubt, but this doesn't make AA some powerhouse in any of those markets.


Agree. I’m getting ahead.

Now: AA<->AS and AA<->B6 (within legal parameters)

Next: AA<->AS<->B6<->AA (within legal parameters)

Eventually: AA+AS+B6 (single entity)


So your assumption is that long-term this will result in a three-way merger between AA, AS, and B6? Because shy of that, there are no legal parameters which allow for any sort of pricing or schedule coordination between any of the three carriers and pilot scope clauses are going to make even codeshare controversial internally at a time when pilots are going to be as sensitive as they've ever been with mass furloughs across all carriers.

raylee67 wrote:
This is a great move by AA, snapping up partnership in its weak spots in the network, with AS and B6. It's obviously targeting DL. DL probably needs to spend some time and money to determine what to do with its equity ownership in various airlines worldwide, from LATAM to AM to VS.


It is increasingly likely as LATAM, AM, and VS all restructure that DL's equity ownership in all three will be diluted to the point of no longer impactful.


Agreed. Virtually overnight, DL has seen its grand plan for a network of foreign JVs become threatened to the point of potential disaster.
 
gaystudpilot
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:49 am

millionsofmiles wrote:
winginit wrote:
gaystudpilot wrote:

Agree. I’m getting ahead.

Now: AA<->AS and AA<->B6 (within legal parameters)

Next: AA<->AS<->B6<->AA (within legal parameters)

Eventually: AA+AS+B6 (single entity)


So your assumption is that long-term this will result in a three-way merger between AA, AS, and B6? Because shy of that, there are no legal parameters which allow for any sort of pricing or schedule coordination between any of the three carriers and pilot scope clauses are going to make even codeshare controversial internally at a time when pilots are going to be as sensitive as they've ever been with mass furloughs across all carriers.

raylee67 wrote:
This is a great move by AA, snapping up partnership in its weak spots in the network, with AS and B6. It's obviously targeting DL. DL probably needs to spend some time and money to determine what to do with its equity ownership in various airlines worldwide, from LATAM to AM to VS.


It is increasingly likely as LATAM, AM, and VS all restructure that DL's equity ownership in all three will be diluted to the point of no longer impactful.


Agreed. Virtually overnight, DL has seen its grand plan for a network of foreign JVs become threatened to the point of potential disaster.


DL’s strategy seemed interesting with the potential for success. Their risk assessments obviously included regional and country geopolitical scenarios. I wonder if a global pandemic that would bring the global aviation sector to near collapse was a risk factor and how it was weighted. (Probably the same as most other airlines.)
 
Detroit313
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:45 am

American Airlines shook the whole industry twice in less than 5 months with the Alaska and JetBlue moves! Good job!
 
Atlwarrior
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:01 am

AMALH747430 wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
I don’t see why AA people are viewing this as good news. It seems more to me like AA is giving up on competing in NYC on its own and is willing to outsource (not entirely obviously) domestic to B6 while it brings international to the table.

It did the same with AS where it realized it could not build a West Coast transpacific hub on its own and therefore partnered with AS in SEA.


I agree, this is AA retrenching in two major US markets and handing the business over to a codeshare parter that they legally can’t talk pricing or scheduling with. This isn’t some JV (which is prohibited domestically) like AA-IAG. I’m also curious as to what the DOJ will have to say about this. They made AA-AS scale back their codeshare after the AS-VX merger. This is clearly a move to reduce competition.

As for the B6 fanboys claiming that this hurts DL and UA, I wouldn’t be so quick to the draw on that. Traffic is not picking back up like everyone thought it would back in March/April. DL and UA have better balance sheets than AA. Those airlines are being very strategic about protecting their assets. AA and B6 are throwing caution to the wind and betting the farm. It’s great to go to fire sale clearance. However, the bill still has to be paid. AA has less money in the bank than their competitors. DL and UA have more resources to be strategic and fight this battle as needed. B6 is taking on quite a bit of risk considering all this can ever be is a simple codeshare. We also need to look at operations. Neither AA or B6 ate the poster children for operational reliability. I’ll give you UA is only marginally better, but DL is much better.

AA can’t make a go of NYC or LA. B6 is largely irrelevant to the middle of the country unless you ONLY travel to Boston, New York, Orlando, or Ft. Lauderdale. I see why they both need each other. I think they can help each other. I just don’t see them outdoing DL or UA in NYC or LA having to continue to compete at arm’s length.

In a previous thread, somebody brought up the Northwest, Continental, and Delta partnership from the 90s and early 2000s as evidence of a domestic codeshare working. I think at that time it was effective. United did the same thing with US and AS codeshares with almost everybody but WN. The industry is different now though. The market was much more segmented back then. We didn’t have three major airlines plus one behemoth of an LCC that pretty much covered the whole country. I don’t know that is sort of an arm’s-length relationship is going to work now when your two major competitors have their own comprehensive hub operations at NYC and LA.

This reminds me of past visions of grAAndeur that didn’t pAAn out.


I agree and think Delta decision to invest in airport facilities will yield a greater reward when traffic picks back up and also have more financial value.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:14 am

Seems like Delta finally pushed American to its last resort: to rely on other brands in key markets. While this partnership (B6 and AA) can be a successs, it is certain admission that American can never go it alone again without digging itself out of a deeper hole. I think one scenario that can happen is B6 and Alaska merge (SEA, LA, Boston and NY) leaving that new entity needing Chicago, Dallas, Charlotte and Miami as hubs.
 
MLIAA
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:21 pm

Does this mean jetBlue will stay at Terminal 3 at ORD? I assume Alaska will now because of the oneworld hookup.
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airplaneboy
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:45 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Seems like Delta finally pushed American to its last resort: to rely on other brands in key markets. While this partnership (B6 and AA) can be a successs, it is certain admission that American can never go it alone again without digging itself out of a deeper hole. I think one scenario that can happen is B6 and Alaska merge (SEA, LA, Boston and NY) leaving that new entity needing Chicago, Dallas, Charlotte and Miami as hubs.


Great observation. American’s weaker financial position relative to DL & UA forced their hand as a result of the pandemic. I believe their CRO (Vasu Raja) is on record recently saying that 2019 was the first year AA was profitable on transatlantic out of JFK. The pandemic has revealed every carrier’s weaknesses based on their current cost cutting strategies. Because this operating environment is truly unprecedented and travel demand forecasts are no longer viable to rely on, we are seeing some carriers adding routes left and right to gauge where the *current* close-in demand lies (NK, F9, B6 - and even WN, which added new routes/city-pairs within a short window).
 
Miamiairport
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:36 pm

Where this goes is dependent upon a number of factors. If successful it could lead to an actual CodeShare agreement. Hopefully B6 management realizes that a full blown merger (even assuming it gets DOJ approval) would be a disaster. This might also help to prevent B6 from mergering with another competitor or forming a close codeshare relationship with an AA competitor. As stated it also seems to be a way of digging out of the hole at JFK, an airport a legacy carrier just can't abandon.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:47 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
Where this goes is dependent upon a number of factors. If successful it could lead to an actual CodeShare agreement. Hopefully B6 management realizes that a full blown merger (even assuming it gets DOJ approval) would be a disaster. This might also help to prevent B6 from mergering with another competitor or forming a close codeshare relationship with an AA competitor. As stated it also seems to be a way of digging out of the hole at JFK, an airport a legacy carrier just can't abandon.


It is an actual codeshare agreement.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:55 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
Where this goes is dependent upon a number of factors. If successful it could lead to an actual CodeShare agreement. Hopefully B6 management realizes that a full blown merger (even assuming it gets DOJ approval) would be a disaster. This might also help to prevent B6 from mergering with another competitor or forming a close codeshare relationship with an AA competitor. As stated it also seems to be a way of digging out of the hole at JFK, an airport a legacy carrier just can't abandon.


It is an actual codeshare agreement.


Not in the sense they coordinate schedules and offer seats on their website.
 
tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:32 pm

raylee67 wrote:
Does this mean AAdvantage miles can be used to get B6 tickets? including the Mint seats??

This is a great move by AA, snapping up partnership in its weak spots in the network, with AS and B6. It's obviously targeting DL. DL probably needs to spend some time and money to determine what to do with its equity ownership in various airlines worldwide, from LATAM to AM to VS.


I would imagine it has to. Otherwise, I don't know why they would do it

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... rtnership/

This has been received very positively from AA ff. But it would only work if AA ff can earn miles on B6/AS flights and redeem miles. Otherwise, there is no reason for people in NY and Boston to view this as a partnership.

The value of keeping ff from a larger network is a lot more important than the feed B6 might provide.

TYWoolman wrote:
Seems like Delta finally pushed American to its last resort: to rely on other brands in key markets. While this partnership (B6 and AA) can be a successs, it is certain admission that American can never go it alone again without digging itself out of a deeper hole. I think one scenario that can happen is B6 and Alaska merge (SEA, LA, Boston and NY) leaving that new entity needing Chicago, Dallas, Charlotte and Miami as hubs.


Let's be real here. DL clearly has better finances than AA. This is something AA got pushed into due to their lack of ability to continue to operate money losing routes in northeast.

We will see what B6 and AS do. I'm a little surprised they have not established even interline up to this point.
 
raylee67
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:44 pm

gaystudpilot wrote:

DL’s strategy seemed interesting with the potential for success. Their risk assessments obviously included regional and country geopolitical scenarios. I wonder if a global pandemic that would bring the global aviation sector to near collapse was a risk factor and how it was weighted. (Probably the same as most other airlines.)


I would think it is most likely not considered as a risk factor. Even if it was, it would be in the footnote and did not bear any significance in the financial assessment. I am responsible for the operational business continuity plan for my company, and we used SARS as a template scenario (i.e. severe disruption for about 3 months, with possibilities of paralysis of operations during the time due to workers getting sick or dying, and spread of illness within the office). That is a fairly dire scenario already and the belief is the risk is extremely low, close to zero. After all, it has only happened once in modern times, and only restricted to specific geography. Humanity has even successfully prevented the spread of Ebola, even it is very contagious and had spread to major cities such as Conakry and Lagos. No one would have planned for the current level of disruptions. If anyone had, the mitigation put in at the time to prepare for such would be prohibitively expensive.
319/20/21 332/33 342/43/45 359/51 388 707 717 732/36/3G/38/39 74R/42/43/44/4E/48 757 762/63 772/7L/73/7W 788/89 D10 M80 135/40/45 175/90 DH1/4 CRJ/R7 L10
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usflyer msp
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:06 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
Where this goes is dependent upon a number of factors. If successful it could lead to an actual CodeShare agreement. Hopefully B6 management realizes that a full blown merger (even assuming it gets DOJ approval) would be a disaster. This might also help to prevent B6 from mergering with another competitor or forming a close codeshare relationship with an AA competitor. As stated it also seems to be a way of digging out of the hole at JFK, an airport a legacy carrier just can't abandon.


It is an actual codeshare agreement.


Not in the sense they coordinate schedules and offer seats on their website.


You are thinking of a JV, which is something that will never be allowed domestically. A codeshare does not require schedule coordination and you will be able to book AA-coded B6 flights on AA.com
 
tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:35 pm

N649DL wrote:
Uh, sorry to rain on the the parade here, but didn't this happen back in like 2011 with AA & B6 with a Short-Lived "East Coast" Codeshare? Just checking...?

If that's the case, then AA has some great access to EWR's Terminal 1 haha.


I was trying to figure out why EWR got some prominently included in this release since AA probably doesn't care about it.

Then, I got it. They grant B6 additional gate access in terminal 1. JetBlue build a large operation (let's say 100 flights) in by 2022. At same time, NK/F9 also add a bunch of flight (let's say 50 total) Now, UA get to over 300 flights and EWR is constrained during peak hours again. That means less frequencies on some of these business markets like PIT, IND and CMH. That means PHL may offer better connection times to Europe vs EWR. And a smaller EWR operation would be less profitable.
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Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos