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TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:23 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
I always like the statement. Have your cake and eat it too...

What’s the point of getting the cake if you can’t eat it? I mean I’m not gonna get cake then let someone else eat it.

Right?

Although this completely off topic, in the saying "have your cake and eat it too", the have refers to physically having it, not consuming it. As in you want to physically keep said cake in your possession while simultaneously wanting to eat it which is of course impossible as you can't do both.


Yes, in other words: JetBlue can't collude with American in Boston and NY on routes served and capacity allocation and still play the independence card. American and JetBlue are using the Pandemic to cover the severity of their impending suspect actions at a time touting efficiencies to be realized while at the same time being sanctioned by the gov't. Nice try.
 
JoseSalazar
Posts: 255
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:18 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:32 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
I always like the statement. Have your cake and eat it too...

What’s the point of getting the cake if you can’t eat it? I mean I’m not gonna get cake then let someone else eat it.

Right?

Although this completely off topic, in the saying "have your cake and eat it too", the have refers to physically having it, not consuming it. As in you want to physically keep said cake in your possession while simultaneously wanting to eat it which is of course impossible as you can't do both.


Yes, in other words: JetBlue can't collude with American in Boston and NY on routes served and capacity allocation and still play the independence card. American and JetBlue are using the Pandemic to cover the severity of their impending suspect actions at a time touting efficiencies to be realized while at the same time being sanctioned by the gov't. Nice try.

Patently false criminal accusations, and if there was any merit to them, other airlines would be crying foul. The only thing delta is trying to do is, with a far reach of an argument, stifle competition and say that LHR slots shouldn’t be given. Their argument is quite a show of mental gymnastics. There is 1) no codeshare TATL, 2) it is directly competing against AA/BA/OW, 3) there is no collusion on new or existing routes. You’ve failed to convince anybody of collusion, because it is non-existent. Sorry for the additional competition DL will face. I know the bully doesn’t like competition, and this isn’t the first time they’ve tried to screw with B6. Remember that time when they convinced ATL to give B6 2 gates...but in different terminals? Delta plays dirty. This is just more of that.
Last edited by JoseSalazar on Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
CaptCoolHand
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:32 pm

woolman, the democrats called and want their collusion back.
If it's illegal it won't be allowed. This is a code share on specific routes stop end dot.
All other routes will still remain as competitive flying to include Europe when/if B6 starts that.
I hate to break it to you, but the deal was in the works well before covid ever became a thing.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:34 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
CaptCoolHand wrote:
I always like the statement. Have your cake and eat it too...

What’s the point of getting the cake if you can’t eat it? I mean I’m not gonna get cake then let someone else eat it.

Right?

Although this completely off topic, in the saying "have your cake and eat it too", the have refers to physically having it, not consuming it. As in you want to physically keep said cake in your possession while simultaneously wanting to eat it which is of course impossible as you can't do both.


Yes, in other words: JetBlue can't collude with American in Boston and NY on routes served and capacity allocation and still play the independence card. American and JetBlue are using the Pandemic to cover the severity of their impending suspect actions at a time touting efficiencies to be realized while at the same time being sanctioned by the gov't. Nice try.

Right... AA and B6 are illegally colluding... Delta, having caught this collusion, has chosen to raise the illegality, not in any court of law, but in a filing about Aer Lingus joining a Joint Venture that B6 is not a part of nor invited to join.
Do you even hear yourself?
:roll:
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:55 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
Although this completely off topic, in the saying "have your cake and eat it too", the have refers to physically having it, not consuming it. As in you want to physically keep said cake in your possession while simultaneously wanting to eat it which is of course impossible as you can't do both.


Yes, in other words: JetBlue can't collude with American in Boston and NY on routes served and capacity allocation and still play the independence card. American and JetBlue are using the Pandemic to cover the severity of their impending suspect actions at a time touting efficiencies to be realized while at the same time being sanctioned by the gov't. Nice try.

Right... AA and B6 are illegally colluding... Delta, having caught this collusion, has chosen to raise the illegality, not in any court of law, but in a filing about Aer Lingus joining a Joint Venture that B6 is not a part of nor invited to join.
Do you even hear yourself?
:roll:


I don't know why they don't. Maybe it's financial reasons. Maybe they are waiting for more concrete evidence when the partnership is in full-force so they can upset the partnership when it would hurt the most, the bully that Delta is. How can anyone complicitly believe that American and JetBlue will not be colluding on capacity and frequency in the most important markets of the JetBlue system? Those efficiencies are the foundation of the partnership. American touts increased international growth amid a pandemic recovery from those two cities. Lol. Consulation for collusion. Again, nice try. Dirty to use the demand void in the current landscape to gain efficiencies while getting gov't handouts on the path towards de facto merger rationalization.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:02 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

Yes, in other words: JetBlue can't collude with American in Boston and NY on routes served and capacity allocation and still play the independence card. American and JetBlue are using the Pandemic to cover the severity of their impending suspect actions at a time touting efficiencies to be realized while at the same time being sanctioned by the gov't. Nice try.

Right... AA and B6 are illegally colluding... Delta, having caught this collusion, has chosen to raise the illegality, not in any court of law, but in a filing about Aer Lingus joining a Joint Venture that B6 is not a part of nor invited to join.
Do you even hear yourself?
:roll:


How can anyone complicitly believe that American and JetBlue will not be colluding on capacity and frequency in the most important markets of the JetBlue system?

Because they’re both public companies that don’t privately create strategic plans based upon breaking US law?
Seems like an obvious reason but don’t let anything “real” get in the way of the fantasy scenario you’ve created in your mind. Your Imaginary collusion land is way past Delta’s legal department at this point.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:09 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Right... AA and B6 are illegally colluding... Delta, having caught this collusion, has chosen to raise the illegality, not in any court of law, but in a filing about Aer Lingus joining a Joint Venture that B6 is not a part of nor invited to join.
Do you even hear yourself?
:roll:


How can anyone complicitly believe that American and JetBlue will not be colluding on capacity and frequency in the most important markets of the JetBlue system?

Because they’re both public companies that don’t privately create strategic plans based upon breaking US law?
Seems like an obvious reason but don’t let anything “real” get in the way of the fantasy scenario you’ve created in your mind. Your Imaginary collusion land is way past Delta’s legal department at this point.


With due respect, you need a reality check. Public companies don't break the law, ever? Lol. Prudently wielding the pandemic! Have to hand it to American! Brilliant!
Last edited by TYWoolman on Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JAMBOJET
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:15 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

How can anyone complicitly believe that American and JetBlue will not be colluding on capacity and frequency in the most important markets of the JetBlue system?

Because they’re both public companies that don’t privately create strategic plans based upon breaking US law?
Seems like an obvious reason but don’t let anything “real” get in the way of the fantasy scenario you’ve created in your mind. Your Imaginary collusion land is way past Delta’s legal department at this point.


With due respect, you need a reality check. Public companies don't break the law, ever? Lol. Prudently wielding the pandemic! Have to hand to American! Brilliant!

Of course they do, but you're alleging something in this thread over and over and over again that even Delta isn't: an entire NE network strategy based upon illegal collusion which has zero basis in any fact, purely your imagination.
 
DMPHL
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:33 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:20 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Because they’re both public companies that don’t privately create strategic plans based upon breaking US law?
Seems like an obvious reason but don’t let anything “real” get in the way of the fantasy scenario you’ve created in your mind. Your Imaginary collusion land is way past Delta’s legal department at this point.


With due respect, you need a reality check. Public companies don't break the law, ever? Lol. Prudently wielding the pandemic! Have to hand to American! Brilliant!

Of course they do, but you're alleging something in this thread over and over and over again that even Delta isn't: an entire NE network strategy based upon illegal collusion which has zero basis in any fact, purely your imagination.


Truly. I never realized someone could be this blinded by love and single-minded devotion to...an airline.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:21 pm

JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Because they’re both public companies that don’t privately create strategic plans based upon breaking US law?
Seems like an obvious reason but don’t let anything “real” get in the way of the fantasy scenario you’ve created in your mind. Your Imaginary collusion land is way past Delta’s legal department at this point.


With due respect, you need a reality check. Public companies don't break the law, ever? Lol. Prudently wielding the pandemic! Have to hand to American! Brilliant!

Of course they do, but you're alleging something in this thread over and over and over again that even Delta isn't: an entire NE network strategy based upon illegal collusion which has zero basis in any fact, purely your imagination.


Delta isn't on my timeline. And as far as collusion: call it what you want: Illegal, Unfair, Concession-prone...all the same in my book if you are implying technicality.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5331
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:25 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

With due respect, you need a reality check. Public companies don't break the law, ever? Lol. Prudently wielding the pandemic! Have to hand to American! Brilliant!

Of course they do, but you're alleging something in this thread over and over and over again that even Delta isn't: an entire NE network strategy based upon illegal collusion which has zero basis in any fact, purely your imagination.


Delta isn't on my timeline. And as far as collusion: call it what you want: Illegal, Unfair, Concession-prone...all the same in my book if you are implying technicality.


unfair is a description, not a crime. Something that's illegal is a crime. huge differences.

You have repeatedly made criminal allegations with zero proof provided.

At the same time, you have said something that's unfair/dirty is the same thing as illegal. That's simply not accurate.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:31 pm

tphuang wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Of course they do, but you're alleging something in this thread over and over and over again that even Delta isn't: an entire NE network strategy based upon illegal collusion which has zero basis in any fact, purely your imagination.


Delta isn't on my timeline. And as far as collusion: call it what you want: Illegal, Unfair, Concession-prone...all the same in my book if you are implying technicality.


unfair is a description, not a crime. Something that's illegal is a crime. huge differences.

You have repeatedly made criminal allegations with zero proof provided.

At the same time, you have said something that's unfair/dirty is the same thing as illegal. That's simply not accurate.


Well, don't forget...this is all in my imagination.
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:53 pm

DMPHL wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:

With due respect, you need a reality check. Public companies don't break the law, ever? Lol. Prudently wielding the pandemic! Have to hand to American! Brilliant!

Of course they do, but you're alleging something in this thread over and over and over again that even Delta isn't: an entire NE network strategy based upon illegal collusion which has zero basis in any fact, purely your imagination.


Truly. I never realized someone could be this blinded by love and single-minded devotion to...an airline.


Devotion not to an airline but to what something actually IS transcending law. I love proposed partnerships, mergers, acquisitions, etc...And this is quite intriguing. To point: I will await what I will pedict will be further collusion-like rationalization in terms of efficient deployment of assets between AA and B6 in Boston and NYC area so that the benefits they tout the alliance will bring to each other will be realized.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:58 pm

I could very well be incorrect, but considering a similar AA-AS deal was announced pre-covid, this was very probably in the works at the same time, just not announced until this summer?

I won’t get into legal wrangling here, but ultimately for DL, isn’t this not a big deal? AA reduced their footprint, JB steps in here and there. Ultimately I think some smaller markets will be abandoned altogether if AA kills the 50 seaters, leaving DL with a great share into some cities. It’ll all work out in the end.
 
tphuang
Posts: 5331
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:16 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
DMPHL wrote:
JAMBOJET wrote:
Of course they do, but you're alleging something in this thread over and over and over again that even Delta isn't: an entire NE network strategy based upon illegal collusion which has zero basis in any fact, purely your imagination.


Truly. I never realized someone could be this blinded by love and single-minded devotion to...an airline.


Devotion not to an airline but to what something actually IS transcending law. I love proposed partnerships, mergers, acquisitions, etc...And this is quite intriguing. To point: I will await what I will pedict will be further collusion-like rationalization in terms of efficient deployment of assets between AA and B6 in Boston and NYC area so that the benefits they tout the alliance will bring to each other will be realized.


The markets that AA will leave are likely the markets they would've left anyways. Out of BOS, I expect them to be mostly hub routes with a couple of weekly leisure routes sprinkled in. So I do see them leaving SYR/ROC. But those are routes they were going to exit anyways. They never started RDU/AUS/IND and I don't expect them to start those now.

Out of LGA, AA will leave a bunch of cities that had 50 seaters before. It's possible JetBlue will enter a few of them with mainline, but it won't be able to in most cases, because those markets can't support mainline. So, JetBlue will likely beef up its Florida schedule and maybe add some oher markets it is strong in like CHS/MSY/RIC. All of these would be moves they'd do regardless of who they get the slots from.

Out of JFK, AA will simply leave most of its RJ markets. JetBlue has already added 5 routes out of JFK and only one of them (DFW) has AA presence at the moment. That's not one AA is likely to drop.

so at the end of the day, if JetBlue is going to bring service to additional markets and very few of them will see AA dropping out, what is questionable by any of this? it's simply not in JetBlue's interest to get into most of the markets that AA is likely to withdraw from.

It's funny that you still haven't raised a stink about LAX, where AA has actually withdrew from a few markets that AS added recently. Even that, you'd have to proof that AA/AS were actually colluding rather than just making moves that are logical to them. But you are complaining about a partnership that has not been formalized and have no exhibited any of this stuff.

TonyClifton wrote:
I could very well be incorrect, but considering a similar AA-AS deal was announced pre-covid, this was very probably in the works at the same time, just not announced until this summer?

I won’t get into legal wrangling here, but ultimately for DL, isn’t this not a big deal? AA reduced their footprint, JB steps in here and there. Ultimately I think some smaller markets will be abandoned altogether if AA kills the 50 seaters, leaving DL with a great share into some cities. It’ll all work out in the end.


depends on the market. DL will see less competition in some of the small markets AA served with 50 seaters. It will see more competition to Florida and some of the leisure market out of LGA.

It will also see B6 with more slots at JFK, which will allow JetBlue to start a real TATL hub there. Keep in mind that JetBlue is getting a major terminal expansion at JFK with additional partners being able to move in and widebody gates. What it can do with 230 slots there is entirely different than what it can do with 180 slots. You should see JetBlue add more flights into some of these within perimeter JFK routes it had dropped/reduced like CLT/DCA/ORD/RDU/BUF since they will help feed TATL flights.

For AA, it will help rest of their network since they get codeshared flights to BOS/EWR/JFK that didn't exist before.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 266
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:25 pm

tphuang wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
DMPHL wrote:

Truly. I never realized someone could be this blinded by love and single-minded devotion to...an airline.


Devotion not to an airline but to what something actually IS transcending law. I love proposed partnerships, mergers, acquisitions, etc...And this is quite intriguing. To point: I will await what I will pedict will be further collusion-like rationalization in terms of efficient deployment of assets between AA and B6 in Boston and NYC area so that the benefits they tout the alliance will bring to each other will be realized.


The markets that AA will leave are likely the markets they would've left anyways. Out of BOS, I expect them to be mostly hub routes with a couple of weekly leisure routes sprinkled in. So I do see them leaving SYR/ROC. But those are routes they were going to exit anyways. They never started RDU/AUS/IND and I don't expect them to start those now.

Out of LGA, AA will leave a bunch of cities that had 50 seaters before. It's possible JetBlue will enter a few of them with mainline, but it won't be able to in most cases, because those markets can't support mainline. So, JetBlue will likely beef up its Florida schedule and maybe add some oher markets it is strong in like CHS/MSY/RIC. All of these would be moves they'd do regardless of who they get the slots from.

Out of JFK, AA will simply leave most of its RJ markets. JetBlue has already added 5 routes out of JFK and only one of them (DFW) has AA presence at the moment. That's not one AA is likely to drop.

so at the end of the day, if JetBlue is going to bring service to additional markets and very few of them will see AA dropping out, what is questionable by any of this? it's simply not in JetBlue's interest to get into most of the markets that AA is likely to withdraw from.

It's funny that you still haven't raised a stink about LAX, where AA has actually withdrew from a few markets that AS added recently. Even that, you'd have to proof that AA/AS were actually colluding rather than just making moves that are logical to them. But you are complaining about a partnership that has not been formalized and have no exhibited any of this stuff.

TonyClifton wrote:
I could very well be incorrect, but considering a similar AA-AS deal was announced pre-covid, this was very probably in the works at the same time, just not announced until this summer?

I won’t get into legal wrangling here, but ultimately for DL, isn’t this not a big deal? AA reduced their footprint, JB steps in here and there. Ultimately I think some smaller markets will be abandoned altogether if AA kills the 50 seaters, leaving DL with a great share into some cities. It’ll all work out in the end.


depends on the market. DL will see less competition in some of the small markets AA served with 50 seaters. It will see more competition to Florida and some of the leisure market out of LGA.

It will also see B6 with more slots at JFK, which will allow JetBlue to start a real TATL hub there. Keep in mind that JetBlue is getting a major terminal expansion at JFK with additional partners being able to move in and widebody gates. What it can do with 230 slots there is entirely different than what it can do with 180 slots. You should see JetBlue add more flights into some of these within perimeter JFK routes it had dropped/reduced like CLT/DCA/ORD/RDU/BUF since they will help feed TATL flights.

For AA, it will help rest of their network since they get codeshared flights to BOS/EWR/JFK that didn't exist before.

Delta did fine when AA had a TATL hub, and will continue to be fine when JB builds one up. That’s not me slighting JB, but just saying JFK can handle two different carriers hubs there. When T4A gets expanded, T1 rebuilt and connected to T4, that will help the SkyTeam side of things.

Overall I see JB as the winning partner on this, rather than AA. It’s telling AA has to rely on two other carriers for Major US a hubs (LAX and JFK).
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 20280
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:42 pm

Please post on the topic. If there is a link on the impact on AA's JV or LHR slots, please start a new topic.
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