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Nicknuzzii
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:49 pm

How does Spirit even have an argument for more slots/gates when they just totally axed EWR and BOS?
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:25 am

RyanairGuru wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I think this was launched in part because NK will keep complaining until the new DOJ makes a ruling. NK here really just wants more slot divestiture at LGA. It's possible that will be asked. B6 will be busy on the phone with Schumer reminding him of how quickly they've restored service to NY area and brought competition to new markets. I anticipate more route announcements coming.


Exactly, this smells like an attempt at an LGA slot grab by way of a divesture. Isn’t AA+B6 still going to be smaller than DL at LGA? If so it seems fairly unreasonable to force them to divest slots, especially as this is a codeshare and not a revenue sharing joint venture.

As for calling in a political favor with Schumer, hasn’t they added more at EWR recently than JFK? Might not play too well to be growing west of the Hudson, although no doubt B6 have been good for New York overall and Schumer has always been a cheerleader for them ever since their first flight.


Nicknuzzii wrote:
How does Spirit even have an argument for more slots/gates when they just totally axed EWR and BOS?


It's a joke, they just tried this same thing with DL & WS

B6 has 10 destinations from LGA, and was the smallest domestic airline from LGA other than F9 in 2019. The idea that AA merely codesharing with B6 on a couple of routes, drastically reduces competition in LGA is ridiculous.

Forcing airlines like DL & AA to give up slots at LGA & DCA only hurts small markets, as those are the ones the legacies cut if they lose slots. If NK gets extra slots they'll just slap more capacity on routes that are already competitive.
 
jplatts
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:25 am

Midwestindy wrote:
Forcing airlines like DL & AA to give up slots at LGA & DCA only hurts small markets, as those are the ones the legacies cut if they lose slots. If NK gets extra slots they'll just slap more capacity on routes that are already competitive.


NK would probably add nonstop service out of LGA to a few more destinations that it does not currently serve nonstop from LGA such as ATL, IAH, MSP, MSY, and TPA if it acquires extra slots at LGA. NK adding Saturday-only LGA-LAS nonstop service is also a possibility with NK recently adding Saturday-only LGA-LAX nonstop service and with NK already serving LAS nonstop from other East Coast cities.

I agree that forcing DL/AA to give up slots at LGA/DCA does hurt small markets, even though AA is less reliant on the LGA/DCA slot and perimeter restrictions with AA having hubs at PHL, CLT, and ORD. Some of the smaller markets that AA serves nonstop from DCA are served nonstop from IAD on UA. UA can also add nonstop service out of IAD to a smaller market that loses nonstop service out of DCA on AA. UA also already has nonstop service out of IAD to some smaller markets in the Eastern U.S. that have no nonstop service to DCA or BWI, and some of the smaller markets that UA serves nonstop from IAD are far enough from DC to have some O&D traffic.

The situation is worse when a smaller market loses nonstop service to LGA on AA or DL due to forced slot divestitures with JFK being slot restricted and there being limited room at EWR to accommodate a nonstop service to a smaller market on UA, unlike in the WAS market where UA can more easily add nonstop service to a smaller market that loses nonstop service to DCA on AA.
 
Ishrion
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:34 am

JetBlue applied to codeshare on AA's JFK-EZE, so long-haul/international codeshares should be coming soon.

https://www.regulations.gov/document/DO ... -0043-0001
 
FSDan
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:52 am

Midwestindy wrote:
The idea that AA merely codesharing with B6 on a couple of routes drastically reduces competition in LGA is ridiculous.


I'd agree with that. I don't believe any of the routes AA+B6 both fly from LGA would become monopoly routes if the two codeshared. DL flies all of them, and most also have additional competition from WN/NK/F9/UA. The one concern I could see arising at LGA is that AA could drop service to the likes of CAK/CAE/ROA/CHO, etc. in the long run and hand those slots over to B6. That could leave certain small markets as DL monopolies or as entirely unserved destinations, while B6 would likely be increasing competition in other markets. I don't know if now is the right time for the regulatory bodies to evaluate that type of scenario, or if B6/AA would have to file something separate with the DOT in the event that they are actually transferring a specified number of slots from one to the other, in which case it would seem more appropriate to consider any effects at that later time.

DCA-BOS seems like the most egregious concentration of market power resulting from the partnership, but didn't the DOT already require the divestment of some DCA slots to account for that?
 
SESGDL
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:22 pm

surfdog75 wrote:
AAguy1992 wrote:
[twoid][/twoid]
dca1 wrote:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/american-jetblue-alliance-draws-increased-scrutiny-from-justice-department-11618423182

Any ideas on what the plan would be for AA/B6 if the current administration walks back the approval of this alliance?


Looks as though Delta is getting pissy, they don't know what to do when they have to compete. I stick by that statement. The current White House and Delta are BFF's,


Not quite. Delta competing effectively is what's forced AA to try a partnership with a competitor.


:checkmark:

Posts have become so one-sided based on who’s favorite airline is being discussed that facts have become unimportant. DL has been a ruthless competitor in NYC, and it’s ridiculous to state that it hasn’t.

Jeremy
 
Detroit313
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:34 pm

If anyone should be blamed for monopoly practices is Delta. There are several routes from LGA served only by Delta. They control almost half LGA's slots.

Jetblue is almost non existent at LGA. Even with an AA + Jetblue marriage, Delta is still a distant No1.

One of Jetblue's main arguments for the deal is that they'll be able to offer competition from LGA on routes where Delta has total monopoly.
 
SESGDL
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:58 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
If anyone should be blamed for monopoly practices is Delta. There are several routes from LGA served only by Delta. They control almost half LGA's slots.

Jetblue is almost non existent at LGA. Even with an AA + Jetblue marriage, Delta is still a distant No1.

One of Jetblue's main arguments for the deal is that they'll be able to offer competition from LGA on routes where Delta has total monopoly.


Your argument makes zero sense. So DL is monopolistic because it's operating routes that no other airlines operate? Please make that make sense. What's stopping AA or any other carrier from starting flights to compete with DL? Yes, LGA is slot controlled and DL controls a lot of the slots, but any airline is welcome to operate any route that it wants to compete against DL if it so chooses. There's nothing monopolistic about DL being the only carrier on a route. :roll:

Jeremy
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:04 pm

[threeid][/threeid]
Detroit313 wrote:
If anyone should be blamed for monopoly practices is Delta. There are several routes from LGA served only by Delta. They control almost half LGA's slots.

Jetblue is almost non existent at LGA. Even with an AA + Jetblue marriage, Delta is still a distant No1.

One of Jetblue's main arguments for the deal is that they'll be able to offer competition from LGA on routes where Delta has total monopoly.


That is correct. there is almost no appreciable difference at LaGuardia


If anything the two airlines should be forced to give up more slots at JFK.

Spirit doesn’t want Jfk slots. it would be ironic if that’s what they had to take
 
clrd4t8koff
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:34 pm

Nicknuzzii wrote:
How does Spirit even have an argument for more slots/gates when they just totally axed EWR and BOS?


Spirit axed BOS? Do you have a source for this?
 
AAguy1992
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:52 pm

Abeam79 wrote:
I have a feeling nothing will really come out of this


Working in the industry as long as I have and yes I'm biased. I have Delta politics to get their way, like all good companies. However Delta brings in reinforcements to make the playing field very lopsided. We can go back and forth on this all year. Delta right now has the influence to get anything they want. Just look at their past dealings.
 
FSDan
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:19 pm

AAguy1992 wrote:
Delta right now has the influence to get anything they want. Just look at their past dealings.


If that were true, I'd have expected the DL+WS JV to get approved without major concessions...
 
AAguy1992
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:28 am

FSDan wrote:
AAguy1992 wrote:
Delta right now has the influence to get anything they want. Just look at their past dealings.


If that were true, I'd have expected the DL+WS JV to get approved without major concessions...


It was just your average this what we'll do. Nothing special about what was given up, plus that was a different DOJ and Administration
 
PSA727
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:11 am

I think this is just the DoJ playing CYA and nothing will change in the end. Because Spirit seems to be making the same argument that failed a few months ago. In fact, neither AA nor B6 had to give up anything at LGA for this joint venture to proceed. They did have to give up some slots at JFK and DCA -- two airports NK doesn't even fly out of. But LGA? Nothing. And perhaps that's because both AA and B6 combined have fewer slots there than does DL. Just because NK's argument worked regarding WS and DL at LGA, doesn't mean that it will regarding AA and B6 there. In fact, the WS/DL situation at LGA is a lot more comparable to the AA/B6 situation at DCA than it is regarding LGA.
 
ContinentalEWR
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:30 am

PSA727 wrote:
I think this is just the DoJ playing CYA and nothing will change in the end. Because Spirit seems to be making the same argument that failed a few months ago. In fact, neither AA nor B6 had to give up anything at LGA for this joint venture to proceed. They did have to give up some slots at JFK and DCA -- two airports NK doesn't even fly out of. But LGA? Nothing. And perhaps that's because both AA and B6 combined have fewer slots there than does DL. Just because NK's argument worked regarding WS and DL at LGA, doesn't mean that it will regarding AA and B6 there. In fact, the WS/DL situation at LGA is a lot more comparable to the AA/B6 situation at DCA than it is regarding LGA.


Yes and no. AA alone, pre-COVID was the second largest airline at LGA with an average of 178 daily departures (compared to DL with 250-265). I get the ULCC's want more access to airports like LGA, but what are they really bringing to the NYC/LGA market specifically beyond more and cheaper flights to Florida, a market that before COVID was saturated and now, is even more so.
 
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adamh8297
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:44 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
Nicknuzzii wrote:
How does Spirit even have an argument for more slots/gates when they just totally axed EWR and BOS?


Spirit axed BOS? Do you have a source for this?


A good haircut for the month of June is a better term.

BOS-MSY/LAS/ATL/ORD/BWI/EWR cut but BOS-MYR increased

https://crankyflier.com/2021/04/12/five ... -schedule/
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:39 pm

"Following an approximately six-month review, the DOT has agreed to terminate its review of the alliance in exchange for a series of commitments to ensure the alliance delivers consumers benefits without harming competition. With these new markets in both JFK and LaGuardia, JetBlue and American are demonstrating that commitment to growth."

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=74365
 
IdlewildJFK
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:44 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
"Following an approximately six-month review, the DOT has agreed to terminate its review of the alliance in exchange for a series of commitments to ensure the alliance delivers consumers benefits without harming competition. With these new markets in both JFK and LaGuardia, JetBlue and American are demonstrating that commitment to growth."

http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=74365


Yes we already knew that - that was announced in January. I get it was in press release but it is not news. I think it’s a shot messaging that the DOJ shouldn’t be concerned as the DoT already put guard rails in place.
 
tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Wed May 26, 2021 1:17 pm

This is pretty big imo
http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=75086
https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... te-status/

Now you can earn not only miles on the codeshares, but on each others flights that are not codeshared across the network (with the exception of B6's TATL stuff) and get qualify miles on them. The rates on the qualify mile earning for AA ff is the same on B6 flights as on AA flights.

Basically, if you are an SFO/LAX based AAdvantage member, you can build your status on non NYC/Boston B6 flights. Same with Mosaic members.
 
sagechan
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Wed May 26, 2021 2:03 pm

First step to the real benefits on this partnership. Earning and burning among FFs is what will drive any potential success here.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Wed May 26, 2021 2:29 pm

My only question on that is will B6 reverse its decision to no longer allow carry-on luggage for certain fare classes? AA allows carry-ons for all fare classes. If the aim is make the experience as metal and booking neutral as possible, that would be one area to look at. Also, maybe making their checked baggage fees align.
 
aa1818
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Wed May 26, 2021 2:47 pm

tphuang wrote:
This is pretty big imo
http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=75086
https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... te-status/

Now you can earn not only miles on the codeshares, but on each others flights that are not codeshared across the network (with the exception of B6's TATL stuff) and get qualify miles on them. The rates on the qualify mile earning for AA ff is the same on B6 flights as on AA flights.

Basically, if you are an SFO/LAX based AAdvantage member, you can build your status on non NYC/Boston B6 flights. Same with Mosaic members.


I read it and think I get it- I noticed the term "worldwide" was used for B6 flights and not AA flights.
So bonuses aside,
B6 True Blue member can book and earn True Blue points on AA metal DFW-Asia, MIA-LatAm, PHL-Europe, and on any domestic AA flight correct?
AA AAdvantage members can book and earn AAdvantage miles on B6 metal JFK-Caribbean, and any domestic B6 flight correct? The only exclusion being JFK-LON?

Starting to look like AA/BA?!?!

AA1818
 
tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Wed May 26, 2021 3:03 pm

aa1818 wrote:
tphuang wrote:
This is pretty big imo
http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=75086
https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... te-status/

Now you can earn not only miles on the codeshares, but on each others flights that are not codeshared across the network (with the exception of B6's TATL stuff) and get qualify miles on them. The rates on the qualify mile earning for AA ff is the same on B6 flights as on AA flights.

Basically, if you are an SFO/LAX based AAdvantage member, you can build your status on non NYC/Boston B6 flights. Same with Mosaic members.


I read it and think I get it- I noticed the term "worldwide" was used for B6 flights and not AA flights.
So bonuses aside,
B6 True Blue member can book and earn True Blue points on AA metal DFW-Asia, MIA-LatAm, PHL-Europe, and on any domestic AA flight correct?
AA AAdvantage members can book and earn AAdvantage miles on B6 metal JFK-Caribbean, and any domestic B6 flight correct? The only exclusion being JFK-LON?

Starting to look like AA/BA?!?!

AA1818


Yes, I would say it looks to be heading toward a tighter partnership than AA/AS. There are still a complaints about whether elite on 1 airline getting free luggage or upgrade or priority status on the other airlines. I think all of that will get worked out. And then, you have a pretty tight relationship that goes beyond just NYC/Boston.

just think that if you are in LA or Bay Area, AA ff can now benefit from all of AS and B6 flights. And if you are mosaic member in NYC or south Florida, you suddenly have access to earn miles on all those AA international flights that are not codeshared.
 
RL757PVD
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Wed May 26, 2021 4:33 pm

With the elite earning AA is going to see my MIA-CLT/DCA/PHL-PVD go to B6 FLL-PVD pretty quickly...
 
ahj2000
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Wed May 26, 2021 7:56 pm

This makes AA even more appealing for a lot of loyalty members. Even more network that makes it available. Now with AA+AS+B6. From my new airport, we now have AA to BOS,CLT,DFW,FLL,JFK,LAS,LAX,LGA,MCO,MIA,ORD,PHL, and TPA. Huge network.
In places where you’ve got that additional PNW connection with Alaska it’d be an even more full network of nonstops.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:57 pm

Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal calling Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg to investigate a partnership between AA and JetBlue saying the partnership in an already highly consolidated industry decreases competition at airports in New York and Boston.

https://thehill.com/policy/transportati ... n-airlines
 
jayunited
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:37 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Connecticut Senator Richard Blumenthal calling Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg to investigate a partnership between AA and JetBlue saying the partnership in an already highly consolidated industry decreases competition at airports in New York and Boston.

https://thehill.com/policy/transportati ... n-airlines



The train has already left the station, the DOT has already approved the NEA. If Blumenthal had objections to the NEA he should have raised those objections last year when the NEA was announced. To ask for an investigation now at this point in time has nothing to do with decreased competition and smells more like politics. Blumenthal probably thinks his objection stands a better chance with Buttigieg as Secretary than it did when Chao was Secretary.

Why wait until a whole new administration is in office to raise your objections to American and JetBlues partnership?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:38 pm

Senators and Congress people ask for things all the time. Nothing may come of it. That the DOT previously granted approval doesn't mean they can't revoke it with good reason.
 
jayunited
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:27 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Senators and Congress people ask for things all the time. Nothing may come of it. That the DOT previously granted approval doesn't mean they can't revoke it with good reason.



What good reason would there be to revoke it? What has changed between 2020 and 2021 except the administration?

I don't work for either of these airlines so I have no skin in this game but this just rubs me the wrong way. If there is a reason to revoke the NEA then why was it approved to begin with and why didn't Blumenthal raise a single objections to this NEA when Chao was the Secretary of Transportation?
 
jplatts
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:49 pm

jayunited wrote:
The train has already left the station, the DOT has already approved the NEA. If Blumenthal had objections to the NEA he should have raised those objections last year when the NEA was announced. To ask for an investigation now at this point in time has nothing to do with decreased competition and smells more like politics. Blumenthal probably thinks his objection stands a better chance with Buttigieg as Secretary than it did when Chao was Secretary.


There are some more adds that could be made by both DL and WN out of BOS in order to improve competition in the BOS market such as the return of WN BOS-DAL/PHX nonstop service and the addition of DL BOS-MDT/PHX/ROC/SAT/SAN/SRQ/SYR/ILM nonstop service.
 
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janders
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:58 pm

Nothing stops DOT/DOJ from reviewing the deal.

As is DOJ did express concern that the alliance could cause coordination that leads to increased ticket prices. The outgoing Transportation Secretary literally on her final day in office signed off on the joint venture which certainly raised eyebrows.
 
tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:33 am

This is not getting revoked. Schumer is 100% on b6 side on this matter. Blumenthal probably is annoyed that aa is pulling out of hvn. Why else would you wait until 9 months after the approval to raise complaint? It's not like Biden got in power 2 weeks ago
 
jayunited
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:01 am

janders wrote:
Nothing stops DOT/DOJ from reviewing the deal.

As is DOJ did express concern that the alliance could cause coordination that leads to increased ticket prices. The outgoing Transportation Secretary literally on her final day in office signed off on the joint venture which certainly raised eyebrows.


Then why not object to American's partnership with Alaska Airlines? Why single out American partnership with JetBlue while saying nothing about their West Coast partnership with Alaska?

There is something about Blumenthal's sudden objection (after 9 months of silence) to the NEA that bothers me and I think the DOT should reject his request unless he can provide concrete proof that the NEA will kill competition within the aviation industry and this isn't some childish tit for tat or a power trip he suddenly decided to go on against these two carriers.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:23 am

DOJ already launched an antitrust probe of the AA-B6 venture in April as it remains concerned. Blumenthal call just adds to the pressure.
Spirit Airlines similarly called for investigation and reconsideration of the DOTs actions.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/american-j ... _headlines
 
HunterATL
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:35 am

jayunited wrote:
janders wrote:
Nothing stops DOT/DOJ from reviewing the deal.

As is DOJ did express concern that the alliance could cause coordination that leads to increased ticket prices. The outgoing Transportation Secretary literally on her final day in office signed off on the joint venture which certainly raised eyebrows.


Then why not object to American's partnership with Alaska Airlines? Why single out American partnership with JetBlue while saying nothing about their West Coast partnership with Alaska?

There is something about Blumenthal's sudden objection (after 9 months of silence) to the NEA that bothers me and I think the DOT should reject his request unless he can provide concrete proof that the NEA will kill competition within the aviation industry and this isn't some childish tit for tat or a power trip he suddenly decided to go on against these two carriers.


He is writing in support of Spirit's complaint which was filed this year after DOT approved the agreement without a proposed tentative order was publicly filed in response to which objectors could file comments. He certainly could not have written in opposition to DOT's decision before it made it or in support of Spirit's complaint before it was filed.

The entire procedure used by DOT was secretive without any meaningful public comment and certainly no public investigation with public findings published in the record or any published finding that the agreement was in the public interest. You may very well have seen the Senator file an objection or issue a letter if DOT had issued a tentative proposed order with public findings instead of executing an agreement with American and Jet Blue without public review on the secretary's last day in office.

Although I personally oppose both agreements and domestic code-shares in general, there are fundamental differences which make the Northeast Partnership more problematic than others. The agreement is really a de facto merger without revenue/profit sharing for the domestic operations from 4 of the busiest airports in the country. American and Jet Blue can coordinate and work together on everything relating to those airports: schedules, inventory, pricing, gate leases, slot assignments/sharing, route assignments from the covered airports, etc. The agreement also permits the two to share extensive traveler data with each other (which they have done), to negotiate corporate travel agreements as one entity instead of in competition with each other, and to maximize both carriers' profitability while eliminating domestic competition between the two. The agreement has already resulted in American and Jet Blue decreasing significantly the routes which they both fly from the 4 affected airports. Spirit has even objected and sought a public investigation because now American is selling tickets involving connections between Alaska and Jet Blue with the passenger never boarding an American plane but flying on American flight numbers for the entire itinerary.

Finally, DOT is now subject to an executive order to spur competition throughout the U.S. economy and the air transport sector in particular. For a Senator to write to DOT to point that recent change out can hardly be deemed some weird action.
 
HunterATL
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:37 am

LAXintl wrote:
DOJ already launched an antitrust probe of the AA-B6 venture in April as it remains concerned. Blumenthal call just adds to the pressure.
Spirit Airlines similarly called for investigation and reconsideration of the DOTs actions.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/american-j ... _headlines


Something that has always surprised me is that New Jersey, New York, and Massachusetts have not sued or instituted an anti-trust review, at least not of which I am aware.
 
tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:27 am

HunterATL wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
DOJ already launched an antitrust probe of the AA-B6 venture in April as it remains concerned. Blumenthal call just adds to the pressure.
Spirit Airlines similarly called for investigation and reconsideration of the DOTs actions.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/american-j ... _headlines


Something that has always surprised me is that New Jersey, New York, and Massachusetts have not sued or instituted an anti-trust review, at least not of which I am aware.


The entire NY state political machine is behind this partnership. If you don't realize that, then you obviously have not followed this. Schumer himself spoke in support of this deal when it was announced.
http://blueir.investproductions.com/inv ... -191441259
“Due to the COVID crisis, I fought for and delivered over $40 billion in payroll support to the airlines and its workers to keep the industry from collapsing and prevent massive job loss,” said incoming Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-NY). “I am glad to see JetBlue and American Airlines collaborating on innovative solutions to save thousands more jobs in a way that also expands New Yorkers’ travel options.”

The argument is very simple. a 3rd legitimate competitor in the NYC market will bring down fares a lot more than 2 large competitors and 2 medium ones. Frankly, we have already seen increase competition across NYC/Boston than we did before this. There is quite a lot of support for this deal bringing more competition.

He is writing in support of Spirit's complaint which was filed this year after DOT approved the agreement without a proposed tentative order was publicly filed in response to which objectors could file comments. He certainly could not have written in opposition to DOT's decision before it made it or in support of Spirit's complaint before it was filed.

Again, NK has been complaining about this for months. They filed their objections many months ago. Why does Blumenthal only object now. The biden administration has been in power for 8 months. He could've said this at any point, but he did not. It's just so curious this came so soon after it was known to public that AA is leaving HVN at end of September.

NK does not wish this partnership to not go ahead. They just want LGA slots. It's very simple.

American and Jet Blue can coordinate and work together on everything relating to those airports: schedules, inventory, pricing, gate leases, slot assignments/sharing, route assignments from the covered airports, etc. The agreement also permits the two to share extensive traveler data with each other (which they have done), to negotiate corporate travel agreements as one entity instead of in competition with each other, and to maximize both carriers' profitability while eliminating domestic competition between the two.

The part about pricing is completely not true. They cannot coordinate in pricing. It's in the agreement. The only thing this agreement provides on top of what AA & AS has is schedules. I have no idea what you mean by slot assignment and sharing. AA and B6 can trade or lease slots with each other. That is nothing abnormal. AA & AS can do the same too if there were actually slots at LAX. AA got AS and B6 signed up to the same large corporate accounts. They also share traveler data. That's what happens when you have reciprocal mileage earning.

Aside from schedule/capacity coordination, how else is this different from the partnership with AS?

The agreement has already resulted in American and Jet Blue decreasing significantly the routes which they both fly from the 4 affected airports.

That is completely non factual. They have already added many routes since it was announced. Competition has increased across those markets. Even DL's retaliations have provided even more competition across the board. These things are quite to easy to proof actually. Can you actually provide evidence for your statement?
 
User avatar
Midwestindy
Topic Author
Posts: 6300
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:17 am

tphuang wrote:
HunterATL wrote:
American and Jet Blue can coordinate and work together on everything relating to those airports: schedules, inventory, pricing, gate leases, slot assignments/sharing, route assignments from the covered airports, etc. The agreement also permits the two to share extensive traveler data with each other (which they have done), to negotiate corporate travel agreements as one entity instead of in competition with each other, and to maximize both carriers' profitability while eliminating domestic competition between the two.

The part about pricing is completely not true. They cannot coordinate in pricing. It's in the agreement. The only thing this agreement provides on top of what AA & AS has is schedules. I have no idea what you mean by slot assignment and sharing. AA and B6 can trade or lease slots with each other. That is nothing abnormal. AA & AS can do the same too if there were actually slots at LAX. AA got AS and B6 signed up to the same large corporate accounts. They also share traveler data. That's what happens when you have reciprocal mileage earning.

Aside from schedule/capacity coordination, how else is this different from the partnership with AS?


The Mutual Growth Incentive Agreement

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... thince.htm
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1890
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:30 am

Midwestindy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
HunterATL wrote:
American and Jet Blue can coordinate and work together on everything relating to those airports: schedules, inventory, pricing, gate leases, slot assignments/sharing, route assignments from the covered airports, etc. The agreement also permits the two to share extensive traveler data with each other (which they have done), to negotiate corporate travel agreements as one entity instead of in competition with each other, and to maximize both carriers' profitability while eliminating domestic competition between the two.

The part about pricing is completely not true. They cannot coordinate in pricing. It's in the agreement. The only thing this agreement provides on top of what AA & AS has is schedules. I have no idea what you mean by slot assignment and sharing. AA and B6 can trade or lease slots with each other. That is nothing abnormal. AA & AS can do the same too if there were actually slots at LAX. AA got AS and B6 signed up to the same large corporate accounts. They also share traveler data. That's what happens when you have reciprocal mileage earning.

Aside from schedule/capacity coordination, how else is this different from the partnership with AS?


The Mutual Growth Incentive Agreement

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data ... thince.htm


<going to get some popcorn>
 
rnav2dlrey
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:10 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:16 pm

WSJ reporting that the DOJ antitrust lawsuit could be filed as soon as today
 
trueblew
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:55 pm

Is Blumenthal golfing buddies with Ed Bastian? This alliance seems to have a disproportionate competitive impact on Delta and we all know how the folks in Atlanta like to play dirty when someone dares to step up competition with them.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12211
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:20 pm

tphuang wrote:
Again, NK has been complaining about this for months. They filed their objections many months ago. Why does Blumenthal only object now. The biden administration has been in power for 8 months. He could've said this at any point, but he did not. It's just so curious this came so soon after it was known to public that AA is leaving HVN at end of September.

tphuang wrote:
This is not getting revoked. Schumer is 100% on b6 side on this matter. Blumenthal probably is annoyed that aa is pulling out of hvn. Why else would you wait until 9 months after the approval to raise complaint? It's not like Biden got in power 2 weeks ago


Blumenthal is on both the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation and the Senate Judiciary Committee which oversees the DOJ. His timing can easily be from information he knows that we might not, and to serve as a warning.

Where there is smoke…
 
tphuang
Posts: 6637
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:23 pm

Polot wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Again, NK has been complaining about this for months. They filed their objections many months ago. Why does Blumenthal only object now. The biden administration has been in power for 8 months. He could've said this at any point, but he did not. It's just so curious this came so soon after it was known to public that AA is leaving HVN at end of September.

tphuang wrote:
This is not getting revoked. Schumer is 100% on b6 side on this matter. Blumenthal probably is annoyed that aa is pulling out of hvn. Why else would you wait until 9 months after the approval to raise complaint? It's not like Biden got in power 2 weeks ago


Blumenthal is on both the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation and the Senate Judiciary Committee which oversees the DOJ. His timing can easily be from information he knows that we might not, and to serve as a warning.

Where there is smoke…


Well, looks like DOJ is going to challenge this, so we will see what happens. I don't see how this gets rolled back at this point. Maybe they will have to part with more slots.
 
jplatts
Posts: 4876
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:35 pm

rnav2dlrey wrote:
WSJ reporting that the DOJ antitrust lawsuit could be filed as soon as today


The argument could be made in an DOJ antitrust lawsuit that competitors who don't partner with AA, AS, or B6 such as DL, WN, G4, F9, NK, and SY could add nonstop service to additional destinations out of BOS to improve competition in the BOS market.

There are some destinations that B6 serves nonstop from JFK that other airlines don't currently serve nonstop from the NYC market such as ABQ, BOI, BUR, CTG, ONT, PSP, PSE, PAP, SJC, and ORH. A few of these destinations such as BUR, ONT, ORH, and SJC are near airports that DL or UA serve nonstop from NYC, and DL or UA could add nonstop service to BOI, CTG, and PSP nonstop from NYC.

AA is the only airline other than B6 that currently serves FCA nonstop from NYC, but DL or UA could add nonstop service to FCA from NYC.

AA also has nonstop service out of LGA to a few destinations such as DAY, DAB, OKC, ROA, and SBN that DL or UA don't currently serve nonstop from NYC, but DL or UA could add nonstop service to these destinations from NYC.

G4 adding EWR-ABQ/BOI/FCA/PSP nonstop service and WN adding Saturday-only LGA-ABQ nonstop service might also be possibilities.
 
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Midwestindy
Topic Author
Posts: 6300
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:56 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:45 pm

tphuang wrote:
Polot wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Again, NK has been complaining about this for months. They filed their objections many months ago. Why does Blumenthal only object now. The biden administration has been in power for 8 months. He could've said this at any point, but he did not. It's just so curious this came so soon after it was known to public that AA is leaving HVN at end of September.

tphuang wrote:
This is not getting revoked. Schumer is 100% on b6 side on this matter. Blumenthal probably is annoyed that aa is pulling out of hvn. Why else would you wait until 9 months after the approval to raise complaint? It's not like Biden got in power 2 weeks ago


Blumenthal is on both the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation and the Senate Judiciary Committee which oversees the DOJ. His timing can easily be from information he knows that we might not, and to serve as a warning.

Where there is smoke…


Well, looks like DOJ is going to challenge this, so we will see what happens. I don't see how this gets rolled back at this point. Maybe they will have to part with more slots.


I'm still confused on how this is bad for competition.

What about this agreement has decreased competition?
 
RL757PVD
Posts: 3315
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 1999 2:47 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:52 pm

Midwestindy wrote:

I'm still confused on how this is bad for competition.

What about this agreement has decreased competition?


The way I could see it is that if you live in Boston or NYC, AA+ B6 makes it an absolute no brainer in terms of options making otherwise notable competitors of UA or DL for NYC or DL for BOS far less competitive in the long run. I don't see what NK's gripe is however, as higher ticket prices would only benefit them.
 
dca1
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:39 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:55 pm

Could they just now pivot to a full-fledged merger and divest whatever is necessary in the markets of concern?
 
Runway765
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2021 1:21 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:56 pm

dca1 wrote:
Could they just now pivot to a full-fledged merger and divest whatever is necessary in the markets of concern?


This is what I was thinking. It would be in AA's interest to do so. They finally fix their NYC presence, gain a nice presence in BOS and they can dump PHL. They would probably have to divest some DCA slots though.
 
trueblew
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:02 pm

Runway765 wrote:
dca1 wrote:
Could they just now pivot to a full-fledged merger and divest whatever is necessary in the markets of concern?


This is what I was thinking. It would be in AA's interest to do so. They finally fix their NYC presence, gain a nice presence in BOS and they can dump PHL. They would probably have to divest some DCA slots though.


That could be the worst idea possible. JetBlue's NYC/BOS operation is successful because of its cost structure. That is the whole reason AA has linked up with them, and the advantage would be lost if they were to be folded into AA. Not to mention all the South Florida overlap that would be a major issue and cede significant ground to Spirit while giving up JetBlue's cost competitiveness.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 12211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:05 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Polot wrote:


Blumenthal is on both the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation and the Senate Judiciary Committee which oversees the DOJ. His timing can easily be from information he knows that we might not, and to serve as a warning.

Where there is smoke…


Well, looks like DOJ is going to challenge this, so we will see what happens. I don't see how this gets rolled back at this point. Maybe they will have to part with more slots.


I'm still confused on how this is bad for competition.

What about this agreement has decreased competition?

Well before AA and B6 where competitors in the Northeast. Now they are not- thus competition has decreased.

Now whether that is meaningful in the overall picture (eg looking at AA’s competitive presence in the region prior to the agreement, and likely future in region without it) is an entirely different question.
Last edited by Polot on Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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