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Philly65
Posts: 94
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:15 pm

Philly65 wrote:
Massive divestitures will be required and I doubt it will make this venture worthwhile. Plus layer job losses etc.. Southwest and others will be lining up for NYC slots. Then you have the JFK vs PHL question. JFK would be the victor but who steps up for PHL? Southwest?

you are over thinking this. JFK slots are already widely up for grab. Not just those AA slots. I doubt DL will come close to using its slots anytime soon.

Divestiture is unlikely to be needed here if AA/AS partnership didn't result in any divestiture. And that partnership is more involved. There is no JV her

There is minimal overlap re AA/AS and layering B6 over this will certainly add objections to these "interline" agreements.
 
EMB170
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:15 pm

To a couple of questions earlier, I'd offer the following:

(1) Why JFK-ATH and TLV vs IST? IMHO it's TK and the rock-bottom fares they offer between NYC and the Middle East. Fares on TK can often be as little as $300-$400 one way, and if you're going on to TLV, BEY, or other cities, you sometimes get a free stopover in IST if you want one. So I think there was some demand that AA sees for those markets, plus if they can use B6 to feed the flights, so be it.

(2) JFK-midwest, like IND, CMH, etc, could ultimately come back on B6, but if it came back on AA, it would be on larger Eagle flights, likely using E70/E75 equipment. IIRC IND-JFK was running on Eagle using EMB-145s, which aren't the most competitive offering. Also, don't forget that IND in particular is a base for RW, so Eagle may keep IND-JFK/BOS (vs. CMH or STL being farmed out to B6) simply to rotate aircraft in and out.

My question about the whole AA/B6 deal is this: What sort of logistical infrastructure will be put into place to facilitate connections? For example, I *think* there is a sterile way to get between T5/T6 (which will be the B6 ops @ LAX) and TBIT S/T4 (which is AA ops there). At JFK, however, B6 is in T5 with AA in T8. Will they run shuttle buses airside between terminals? I'd hate to think that if I wanted to connect from one to the other, I'd have to clear security and go out to the AirTrain...
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:18 pm

tphuang wrote:
Let's not forget AA released 70 JFK slots.


tphuang wrote:
They just gave up 70 slots at JFK. They are not coming back to IND-JFK. For BOS, I think they will just concentrate on hub markets.. I see this for IND, CMH and STL. AA will not be operating these markets from JFK going forward. B6 will add these markets over the next couple of years to complete its network out of JFK and BOS. It's possible EWR will be added too. AA is relying on JetBlue for domestic feed in these markets.


There is no source for this, so I don't know why you keep repeating this as if it is fact.

40 slots or less, is less than AA needs to operate hub and int'l flying from JFK, plus if AA truly wanted to get rid of these slots why would they not lease them to B6 or something creative........you know..... since the center piece of this agreement is B6 feeding AA long-haul from JFK!

United1 wrote:
AA is adding a few long haul flights but you are assuming AA is upguaging 50 seats RJs. AA could very easily be cutting some mainline in favor of 2 cabin RJ's. ie AA mainline longhaul and trunk routes, B6 mainline and Eagle on regional routes.

ScottB wrote:
It's not entirely clear they are actually upgauging at NYC. They said more two-class RJs are joining the fleet, but they weren't specific about flying them from NYC. Plus I really have to wonder about the impact on scope with a massive reduction in AA's mainline flying. They may end up increasing gauge in markets B6 won't serve from LGA but that will partly be necessary due to handing B6 slots at that airport. Or, as others have speculated, two-class RJs might well replace mainline flights at LGA -- on the Shuttle, for example.


http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetb ... wsid=69683

"American intends to operate more dual-class regional aircraft featuring first class beginning next year, providing the premium experience customers in the Northeast prefer."

Not sure why B6 would include this in their press release unless it meant 50 seaters to 76 seaters.....

AA is almost exclusively RJs outside of hubs from NYC, unless the destination is out of RJ range or a massive market. NYC-DCA was already nearly all RJ, could we see more RJ on NYC-ORD/BOS yeah, but ultimately that would mean less 50 seaters across other routes as the planes route in from other routes.
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MrPeanut
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:19 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
In case you missed it AA is expanding long-haul from NYC, and upguaging 50 seaters at NYC.


Both can be accomplished while still reducing overall capacity. The less profitable routes dropped and kicked over to JetBlue while the remaining routes upgraded - and some of those upgraded routes could be on JetBlue. AA doesn’t need the footprint it had with JetBlue as a partner.

That said, let’s not forget that this is not a profit sharing agreement. Partnerships like these do not fix the inherent problem AA has. Partnerships like these only last a few years and collapse either because they are not successful / profitable or are highly successful and one airline is unable to accommodate the capacity needs of another (DL / AS). There is also the added problem in that each airline will always look out for its own interests first and partner second, eventually resulting in friction along the way.

It’s good that AA is doing something to address its west coast and east coast weaknesses by creating alliances or partnerships, but these moves shed light on their geographical weaknesses and are not a long term solution.
Last edited by MrPeanut on Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Philly65
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:24 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
In case you missed it AA is expanding long-haul from NYC, and upguaging 50 seaters at NYC.


Both can be accomplished while still reducing overall capacity. The less profitable routes dropped and kicked over to JetBlue while the remaining routes upgraded - and some of those upgraded routes could be on JetBlue. AA doesn’t need the footprint it had with JetBlue as a partner.

That said, let’s not forget that this is not a profit sharing agreement. Partnerships like these do not fix the inherent problem AA has. Partnerships like these only last a few years and collapse either because they are not successful / profitable or are highly successful and one airline is unable to accommodate the capacity needs of another (DL / AS). There is also the added problem in that each airline will always look out for its own interests first and partner second, eventually resulting in friction along the way.

It’s good that AA is doing something to address its west coast and east coast weaknesses by creating alliances or partnerships, but these moves shed light on their geographical weaknesses and are not a long term solution.


You are making the case this is more than an "interline" agreement. This is a virtual merger and given the constraints of the NYC market I am certain this will be challenged as anti-competitive.
 
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vhtje
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:26 pm

Whilst this is terrific for AA's frequent flyers, it doesn't do anything for oneworld passengers flying into NYC, unlike the AS deal on the west coast. That is disappointing.
I only turn left when boarding aircraft. Well, mostly. All right, sometimes. OH OKAY - rarely.
 
jayunited
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:27 pm

Philly65 wrote:
Massive divestitures will be required and I doubt it will make this venture worthwhile. Plus layer job losses etc.. Southwest and others will be lining up for NYC slots. Then you have the JFK vs PHL question. JFK would be the victor but who steps up for PHL? Southwest?



There will be no divestitures because this is nothing more than a codeshare. People are trying to make this more than what it is but a codeshare is a codeshare, this isn't a JV or a merger. Both airlines still maintain separate airlines, separate systems, separate pricing. Of course AA in their announcement is going to play this up to make it seem like this partnership is something new but in reality we've all seen this before with UA and US, AA and B6, AA and AS (were partners in the past), and if I'm not mistaken weren't CO and DL, or CO and NW at one point codeshare partners.

I'm saying all of that to say this is nothing new.
 
Ishrion
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:28 pm

So AA and JetBlue’s hard products in their aircraft are quite different... JetBlue has PTVs in all of their aircraft while AA is stripping out the PTVs... could this lead to AA retaining the PTVs as rumored a few weeks ago?

Probably unlikely though.
 
Philly65
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:37 pm

jayunited wrote:
Philly65 wrote:
Massive divestitures will be required and I doubt it will make this venture worthwhile. Plus layer job losses etc.. Southwest and others will be lining up for NYC slots. Then you have the JFK vs PHL question. JFK would be the victor but who steps up for PHL? Southwest?



There will be no divestitures because this is nothing more than a codeshare. People are trying to make this more than what it is but a codeshare is a codeshare, this isn't a JV or a merger. Both airlines still maintain separate airlines, separate systems, separate pricing. Of course AA in their announcement is going to play this up to make it seem like this partnership is something new but in reality we've all seen this before with UA and US, AA and B6, AA and AS (were partners in the past), and if I'm not mistaken weren't CO and DL, or CO and NW at one point codeshare partners.

I'm saying all of that to say this is nothing new.


Times have changed. We are down to effectively 5 or 6 core airlines. What does this "interline" arrangement gain and for whom? I can fly AA from RSW to ATH for example via PHL or ORD. Where is the benefit from a B6 RSW-JFK and AA JFK-ATH connection. It already exists on AA metal. I am not seeing the value of this and sorry but it is a virtual merger. just hoping AA unions kill this quickly with pending job losses.
 
x1234
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:41 pm

I like this strategy by Vasu. This is ALL to feed AA's long-haul destinations from Europe (JFK/PHL) to Asia/Oceania (LAX/SEA) to Latin America (MIA).
 
trueblew
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:47 pm

United1 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Doesn't AA's pilot union have to give their approval before a deal like this can move forward? And if so, why would they agree to something like this? Seems like this will make it easier and more necessary to reduce AA staffing (including pilots).


Thanks for bringing this up...the response from AA's unions should be epic. This is almost being pitched as outsourcing mainline markets to B6. That is not going to fly and nor should it B6 pilots get furlough protection and AAs pilots are out on the street.


They agreed to this when they ratified their pilot contract that includes scope language that permits agreements of this type. You don't get to approve deals of this nature and then be outraged when they get implemented.
 
ahj2000
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:47 pm

Philly65 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Philly65 wrote:
Massive divestitures will be required and I doubt it will make this venture worthwhile. Plus layer job losses etc.. Southwest and others will be lining up for NYC slots. Then you have the JFK vs PHL question. JFK would be the victor but who steps up for PHL? Southwest?



There will be no divestitures because this is nothing more than a codeshare. People are trying to make this more than what it is but a codeshare is a codeshare, this isn't a JV or a merger. Both airlines still maintain separate airlines, separate systems, separate pricing. Of course AA in their announcement is going to play this up to make it seem like this partnership is something new but in reality we've all seen this before with UA and US, AA and B6, AA and AS (were partners in the past), and if I'm not mistaken weren't CO and DL, or CO and NW at one point codeshare partners.

I'm saying all of that to say this is nothing new.


Times have changed. We are down to effectively 5 or 6 core airlines. What does this "interline" arrangement gain and for whom? I can fly AA from RSW to ATH for example via PHL or ORD. Where is the benefit from a B6 RSW-JFK and AA JFK-ATH connection. It already exists on AA metal. I am not seeing the value of this and sorry but it is a virtual merger. just hoping AA unions kill this quickly with pending job losses.

This is less about connections and more about new/expanded markets for both carriers out of NYC. No one needs to fly CDG-JFK-DTW on AA/B6 when they can do it over PHL, ORD, and (out of the way/seasonally MIA/DFW/CLT) This is more about flyers to/from NY who are going to places where they couldn't reach well on only one preexisting network and increasing the value proposition of AA/B6 loyalty to FFs/corporate accounts that would otherwise want the expanded networks of DL and UA.
Still don't see how this is even close to a merger. It's cooperation in two markets. That's it. We still don't even know about what the frequent flyer benefits will be. Last time they were partners, AA flyers couldn't even get EQM on B6.
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panamair
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:54 pm

B6 is the big winner here; they didn't have to give up a thing and got a lot more out of this than AA.

IMO, for AA, this is a last ditch attempt to salvage what they have left in NYC and not be completely cast out of the lucrative market. The benefit for AA is that their FFers in NYC can (presumably) earn and burn on B6 flights (but how generous that will be isn't even clear - e.g., could you only accrue status miles in AAdvantage on AA-coded flights perhaps and not B6 coded flights?). And how many seats on B6 flights will B6 allocate to AA codeshares? Usually in many cases, the codeshare flights (operated by another airline) are more expensive (hence, AA FFers may be faced with more expensive AA coded direct flights operated by B6, so where's the gain?)

Connections and feed at JFK sound good in theory, but until the grand vision of linking JFK terminals is complete, connections at JFK between the two will be far from seamless given that each will be staying put in their own terminals).

As already mentioned by others, this sounds like just a codesharing arrangement for now. This is not a JV (no revenue or profit sharing) nor will they have anti-trust clearance, so they will not be allowed to coordinate on schedules or fares. This will only help put more butts in seats, but at what revenue levels?
 
ScottB
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:13 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
"American intends to operate more dual-class regional aircraft featuring first class beginning next year, providing the premium experience customers in the Northeast prefer."

Not sure why B6 would include this in their press release unless it meant 50 seaters to 76 seaters.....

AA is almost exclusively RJs outside of hubs from NYC, unless the destination is out of RJ range or a massive market. NYC-DCA was already nearly all RJ, could we see more RJ on NYC-ORD/BOS yeah, but ultimately that would mean less 50 seaters across other routes as the planes route in from other routes.


So the press release is identical between AA & B6 -- it's a joint release. And you should always read language in a press release very carefully because it is virtually always finely crafted to create false impressions even if the actual statements are completely factual. Yes, they may fly more two-class regional aircraft from NYC (compared to when?) but it's not stated which aircraft these will replace. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see AA exit the LGA-BOS leg of the Shuttle -- B6 was planning to compete more aggressively in that airport pair and AA has little need to lose money in that market if they can put their customers on B6.

It's all so non-specific because they just refer to the Northeast, which could even include PHL and DCA. Heck, it could cover two-class RJs from MHT to CLT or BDL to ORD.

Ishrion wrote:
So AA and JetBlue’s hard products in their aircraft are quite different... JetBlue has PTVs in all of their aircraft while AA is stripping out the PTVs... could this lead to AA retaining the PTVs as rumored a few weeks ago?


Yeah, outside of customers in NYC/BOS who are Concierge Key and/or always book domestic F, I can't see why anyone would book AA if they can get a B6 flight as a code share. The AA domestic product behind the first class divider is woeful.
 
catiii
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:15 pm

Philly65 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Philly65 wrote:

A fancy interline agreement that reduces competition without massive divestitures.


Interline agreements aren’t competition. Airlines don’t even need to seek approval for interline. There’s zero proof that competition is being reduced, just a bunch of A.netters and their per usual inane theories.

oh, okay. Whatever you say.


He's right. An interline agreement isn't competitive.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:17 pm

vhtje wrote:
Whilst this is terrific for AA's frequent flyers, it doesn't do anything for oneworld passengers flying into NYC, unlike the AS deal on the west coast. That is disappointing.


B6 already codeshares or interlines with every other OW carrier out of JFK and BOS, even AT.
 
winginit
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:23 pm

Philly65 wrote:
This is a virtual merger and given the constraints of the NYC market I am certain this will be challenged as anti-competitive.


A virtual merger? Let's see here:

- No pricing coordination
- No network coordination
- No capital planning, supply-chain, or workforce coordination
- No possible legal channel with which these carriers can pursue any sort of anti-trust immunity barring an actual merger

Pray tell, how is this a virtual merger? Be specific, and before we go accusing basic interline of being anti-competitive, know that for years and in many cases to this day, the biggest interline volumes within the US market are exchanged between the US3, often during IROPS. The standard practice has never, not once, been formally accused as being anti-competitive in any sort of meaningful setting.
Last edited by winginit on Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
ScottB
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:25 pm

ahj2000 wrote:
We still don't even know about what the frequent flyer benefits will be. Last time they were partners, AA flyers couldn't even get EQM on B6.


I think the bigger hurdle for AA flyers now will be EQD qualification when booking B6 flights.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:40 pm

A couple of key points have been left out by posters here:

-AA, AS and B6 all operating transcon. Who's going to be the winner here?!
-"Creating seamless connections"- We are talking about JFK. Not ATL or DFW. To connect at JFK you need to exit the airside zone, take the airtran and re-enter airside. That takes a lot of time and doesn't make it the "enjoyable" experience that they proclaim it to be. No way can B6 move to T8 as their operations are too big.
-What does this even mean for B6's expansion at LAX that was announced last week?
-The cannabalisation of B6's FLL hub due to the points sharing scheme that now TrueBlue members can take advantage of AAs flights?

The list literally goes on and on. Sounds more of a deal on the run compared to what AS did. At least DL made its goals direct with the Latam deal.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
rjbesikof
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:51 pm

EMB170 wrote:
To a couple of questions earlier, I'd offer the following:

(1) Why JFK-ATH and TLV vs IST? IMHO it's TK and the rock-bottom fares they offer between NYC and the Middle East. Fares on TK can often be as little as $300-$400 one way, and if you're going on to TLV, BEY, or other cities, you sometimes get a free stopover in IST if you want one. So I think there was some demand that AA sees for those markets, plus if they can use B6 to feed the flights, so be it.

(2) JFK-midwest, like IND, CMH, etc, could ultimately come back on B6, but if it came back on AA, it would be on larger Eagle flights, likely using E70/E75 equipment. IIRC IND-JFK was running on Eagle using EMB-145s, which aren't the most competitive offering. Also, don't forget that IND in particular is a base for RW, so Eagle may keep IND-JFK/BOS (vs. CMH or STL being farmed out to B6) simply to rotate aircraft in and out.

My question about the whole AA/B6 deal is this: What sort of logistical infrastructure will be put into place to facilitate connections? For example, I *think* there is a sterile way to get between T5/T6 (which will be the B6 ops @ LAX) and TBIT S/T4 (which is AA ops there). At JFK, however, B6 is in T5 with AA in T8. Will they run shuttle buses airside between terminals? I'd hate to think that if I wanted to connect from one to the other, I'd have to clear security and go out to the AirTrain...


I think AA is also doing Tel Aviv to respond to United significantly expanding their presence there over the next few months.
 
United1
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:52 pm

trueblew wrote:
United1 wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
Doesn't AA's pilot union have to give their approval before a deal like this can move forward? And if so, why would they agree to something like this? Seems like this will make it easier and more necessary to reduce AA staffing (including pilots).


Thanks for bringing this up...the response from AA's unions should be epic. This is almost being pitched as outsourcing mainline markets to B6. That is not going to fly and nor should it B6 pilots get furlough protection and AAs pilots are out on the street.


They agreed to this when they ratified their pilot contract that includes scope language that permits agreements of this type. You don't get to approve deals of this nature and then be outraged when they get implemented.


It's not just the pilots, although I did specifically call them out. Every AA union is going to go insane over this if AA draws down NYC even further and leases slots out to B6 just to codeshare on their flights. While domestic codesharing wouldn't trigger the unions wrath farming out their members jobs will...that is certainly not something the unions agreed to.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
deltairlines
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:01 pm

lesfalls wrote:
A couple of key points have been left out by posters here:

-AA, AS and B6 all operating transcon. Who's going to be the winner here?!
-"Creating seamless connections"- We are talking about JFK. Not ATL or DFW. To connect at JFK you need to exit the airside zone, take the airtran and re-enter airside. That takes a lot of time and doesn't make it the "enjoyable" experience that they proclaim it to be. No way can B6 move to T8 as their operations are too big.
-What does this even mean for B6's expansion at LAX that was announced last week?
-The cannabalisation of B6's FLL hub due to the points sharing scheme that now TrueBlue members can take advantage of AAs flights?

The list literally goes on and on. Sounds more of a deal on the run compared to what AS did. At least DL made its goals direct with the Latam deal.


On point one, AA and B6 both blow AS out of the water on transcon service, especially in the premium cabin. AS is plain jane domestic F with meals that aren't exactly inspiring. AA and B6 offer lie-flats and an upgraded menu. Personally, I'd take AA in the premium cabin since I'm not a huge fan of how Mint does its meal service and also due to lounge access. The big thing this does is gives AA passengers flying coach more options - B6 has a better coach experience than AA or AS, and AA had a pretty small Y cabin on those 32Ts.

On point two, seamless connections at JFK have always been iffy for any airline. Sure, things have improved a lot over ten years ago and continue to evolve. Soon, we'll have a lot of oneworld under the same roof at T8. Delta got better with T4 (and having VS, AM, LA, KL there) but connecting to AF (which handles the bulk of the CDG flying historically) and KE means the same landside transfer to T1. It's just one of the pains of JFK. And no way B6 moves out of T5; to even consider it is laughable.

On point three, nothing. This is for coverage out of the Northeast. The writing had been on the wall for a long time regarding LGB; it was just a matter of when they could get the real estate at LAX to make the move. COVID just sped that up a bit.

On point four, I don't really see any canibalisation. Sure, they can earn and burn on each other, but if you're in Broward County, do you really want to go all the way down to MIA? Same - if you're in Miami or Miami Beach, do you want to deal with going to FLL? I've done it (flying into FLL and staying on Miami Beach) - it's a huge hassle.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:01 pm

If this is like before it's not a true codeshare. IIRC with the past arrangement B6 flights did not show up on aa.com. If I booked a qualifying flight on B6's website I could enter my AAdvantage account and get RDMs. That was it-no other benefits. In the prior arrangement the unions said very little. Now if it goes further to a true codeshare and AA is dropping routes NE routes to JFK like crazy then the Unions will probably complain. But given the state of the industry and AA they don't have much leverage. I assume both AA and B6 are feeling competitive pressures and don't want to get involved in adding capacity and no one will win fare wars. This is one way for 2 adversaries to fight their bigger adversaries.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:05 pm

Has AA changed it's JFK/SFO/LAX meal service back to the transcon service? MIA is still a single plate and I would bet it will stay that way unless AA at some point puts a 3 class 773 back on the MIA/LAX route. (F meal being more substantial than the J meal).
 
onwFan
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:20 pm

Philly65 wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Philly65 wrote:
Massive divestitures will be required and I doubt it will make this venture worthwhile. Plus layer job losses etc.. Southwest and others will be lining up for NYC slots. Then you have the JFK vs PHL question. JFK would be the victor but who steps up for PHL? Southwest?



There will be no divestitures because this is nothing more than a codeshare. People are trying to make this more than what it is but a codeshare is a codeshare, this isn't a JV or a merger. Both airlines still maintain separate airlines, separate systems, separate pricing. Of course AA in their announcement is going to play this up to make it seem like this partnership is something new but in reality we've all seen this before with UA and US, AA and B6, AA and AS (were partners in the past), and if I'm not mistaken weren't CO and DL, or CO and NW at one point codeshare partners.

I'm saying all of that to say this is nothing new.


Times have changed. We are down to effectively 5 or 6 core airlines. What does this "interline" arrangement gain and for whom? I can fly AA from RSW to ATH for example via PHL or ORD. Where is the benefit from a B6 RSW-JFK and AA JFK-ATH connection. It already exists on AA metal. I am not seeing the value of this and sorry but it is a virtual merger. just hoping AA unions kill this quickly with pending job losses.

Do you realize that what you just said is contradictory to what you intended? The deal finally goves NYC passengers another nonstop option to TLV and ATH. You are trying to say, deals like these should be probibited because they are making new entrants in markets like JFK-TLV/ATH possible, which is exactly what is anti-competitive. This is all about giving the FFs of B6 additional international route options... If anything, this is the type of partnerships that DOT would want to see, not more and more JVs.
 
incitatus
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:21 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
Rumor has it DL and WN are looking at similar.


If that happens, United can partner with Allegiant!
I do not consume Murdoch products including the Wall Street Journal
 
kavok
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:22 pm

I view this more of a situation where AA would be struggling to fill long haul international flights from BOS and JFK to anywhere but LHR, given the reduced presence by AA in both markets. And if AA can’t offer TATL flights to anywhere but LHR, they are essentially giving up the BOS and JFK business markets. Similarly, B6 is losing business pax to DL also because of their lack of any TATL service.

Thus AA provides the necessary TATL service B6 needs to be competitive, and B6 provides the necessary feed that AA needs to operate TATL beyond LHR from BOS/JFK. TATL is where I see the value in this partnership, and far less significant is any B6/AA domestic connections or codeshares that may occur.
 
ScottB
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:24 pm

lesfalls wrote:
-What does this even mean for B6's expansion at LAX that was announced last week?


B6's "expansion" at LAX is actually a reduction of LAX+LGB. Most of the markets moving from LGB to LAX are going to see reduced frequency. The elimination of BOS-LGB and JFK-LGB won't result in increased frequency in those markets to LAX. LAS, SEA, and SLC will see reduced frequency year-over-year to LAX compared to LGB, and PDX-LGB doesn't move over. So while they've got five new flights to EWR, they're dropping seven frequencies that were at LGB.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:37 pm

JFK-TLV and JFK-ATH would sound pretty good on the B789 (not needing the premium cabin size of the B772/B77W)...it would also put pricing pressure on DL on the New York side of the market. (As for DFW-TLV, I still believe that will happen for W21; JFK to TLV would be for O&D on each end and cargo.) On ATH-NYC though, there will be 4 carriers (don't forget Emirates from Newark)...can the market support 4 carriers on what's a highly-seasonal route? Only EK flies ATH-EWR year-round.

On short haul, AA needs that B6 customer base in the Northeast, and B6 doesn't want to fly a plane larger than 6 abreast. Also, some of those slots that AA used to use for long-haul from LAX to Asia, on routes now moving to DFW, could be moved to B6 along with some gates being shared.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:39 pm

What the new flights to ATH&TLV offer compared with PHL is non stop, no backtracking or minimal backtracking connection travel to Greece and Israel from NY, NJ, CT and RI.
And just from those states the size of the market to these two countries is massive.
Last year ATH had double daily flights from JFK by DL and 4-5 weekly from Norwegian plus daily UA and EK service from EWR.
TLV was served by at least daily DL and LY plus UA from EWR.
AA could only offer connections via PHL.
Now it is a real player.
Last edited by P1aneMad on Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
trueblew
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:39 pm

United1 wrote:
trueblew wrote:
United1 wrote:

Thanks for bringing this up...the response from AA's unions should be epic. This is almost being pitched as outsourcing mainline markets to B6. That is not going to fly and nor should it B6 pilots get furlough protection and AAs pilots are out on the street.


They agreed to this when they ratified their pilot contract that includes scope language that permits agreements of this type. You don't get to approve deals of this nature and then be outraged when they get implemented.


It's not just the pilots, although I did specifically call them out. Every AA union is going to go insane over this if AA draws down NYC even further and leases slots out to B6 just to codeshare on their flights. While domestic codesharing wouldn't trigger the unions wrath farming out their members jobs will...that is certainly not something the unions agreed to.


It quite literally is what they agreed to.
 
ckfred
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:46 pm

I think airlines are simply trying to survive for the next 1 to 3 years. I've read that aviation pundits think it will be some time after a vaccine becomes readily available, before businesses put employee back on airplanes. My wife works in financial services, and there were executives from Europe regularly flying to U.S. offices, sometimes 3 times a month. Now, everyone is working from home until January, and the CEO has said that there is no such thing as an emergency, in terms of travel. If a client wanted people on its site for a major problem, the answer would be no.

My family was supposed to travel ORD-IAH in September, AA dropped the Sunday schedule (traditionally set at 4 non-stops, mix of mainline and Eagle) to one A320 from 2 A319s and a CRJ700. This tells me that the increase in Covid-19 in the South and West is dropping travel volume.

Delta said that it expects to be 30% smaller next summer, compared to the summer of 2019, assuming that a vaccine becomes widely available over the winter. United has also said that it expects to be significantly smaller.

What would be interesting to know is how long the agreement with B6 lasts, as well as the termination provisions. Both carriers may be thinking that their woes will last for some time, and this is a stop-gap to smooth things a bit until traffic volumes start to return. Once traffic starts back towards 2019 levels, then the agreement may be terminated.

One to three years is what a lot of pundits say, but I've seen travel analysts say that it could be 5 years or even longer, before airlines around the world see as many passengers as they did in 2019.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:56 pm

Barron's has an article questioning if this is the beginning phases of what could be an AA/B6 merger, down the road, but quickly pivots to UA being a better fit for B6, going on to say UA would get access to JFK in a meaningful way, and B6 could rationalize EWR. I don't see either happening in the immediate, given AA's huge debt load and UA's precarious financial position as well. From a DOJ perspective, if a merger eventually materialized, I don't see it allowing UA and B6 to combine as it would give them too much in the NY Area market. AA though, could theoretically be approved, if it divests B6 assets at FLL (overlap with MIA). I've been saying an AA/B6 merger would be the solution to AA's NY problem and rationalize and streamline the northeast generally.
 
tphuang
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:04 pm

kavok wrote:
I view this more of a situation where AA would be struggling to fill long haul international flights from BOS and JFK to anywhere but LHR, given the reduced presence by AA in both markets. And if AA can’t offer TATL flights to anywhere but LHR, they are essentially giving up the BOS and JFK business markets. Similarly, B6 is losing business pax to DL also because of their lack of any TATL service.

Thus AA provides the necessary TATL service B6 needs to be competitive, and B6 provides the necessary feed that AA needs to operate TATL beyond LHR from BOS/JFK. TATL is where I see the value in this partnership, and far less significant is any B6/AA domestic connections or codeshares that may occur.


I think there are a lot of AA ff in BOS area. With this move, those ff have no reason to move to DL. While at the same time, DL/UA ff now have a lot of reasons to move to AA. Also, there is more reason for people who traditionally stick with legacy airlines to try out JetBlue. What's the rationale for DL in BOS now?

Keep in mind, this does not stop JetBlue from launching TATL service. That's still going forward. The big deal here is all the slots/gates jetBlue will be getting at JFK/LGA/EWR. AA may have more feed now to try certain longer range markets that it couldn't try before. We will see.

Midwestindy wrote:

40 slots or less, is less than AA needs to operate hub and int'l flying from JFK, plus if AA truly wanted to get rid of these slots why would they not lease them to B6 or something creative........you know..... since the center piece of this agreement is B6 feeding AA long-haul from JFK!


a post-COVID schedule in peak summer month probably looks like this
10x LAX
4x SFO
4x PHX
6x MIA
2x DFW
4x CLT
2x ORD
4x LHR
1x CDG
1x MAD
1x TLV
1x GRU
1x EZE
1x Caribbean leisure

40 to 45 flights sound about right. AA probably had close to 120 slots before this started.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 269
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:22 pm

This sets the stage for the eventual next round of consolidation in the industry.

-AA+AS+B6
-DL+UA

-WN
-F9
-G4
-HA
-NK

To obtain real value AA, AS and B6 will have to coordinate schedules and pricing. US antitrust laws prevent them from doing so. This “partnership” will play out as an interim step with some incremental value. A merger is inevitable.

With the industry remaining in a precarious situation at least through 2024, carriers “emerging smaller” and layoffs all around, the industry is ripe for consolidation.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:27 pm

The only airport where some connections may actually flow is EWR. Of course it’s the airport with the least amount of service from both carriers. Currently AA and B6 are in separate concourses (for the most part) but this will change next year. In terminal 1 B6 should easily be able to grab 8 gates with AA only needing 5 or so.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 269
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:32 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Barron's has an article questioning if this is the beginning phases of what could be an AA/B6 merger, down the road, but quickly pivots to UA being a better fit for B6, going on to say UA would get access to JFK in a meaningful way, and B6 could rationalize EWR. I don't see either happening in the immediate, given AA's huge debt load and UA's precarious financial position as well. From a DOJ perspective, if a merger eventually materialized, I don't see it allowing UA and B6 to combine as it would give them too much in the NY Area market. AA though, could theoretically be approved, if it divests B6 assets at FLL (overlap with MIA). I've been saying an AA/B6 merger would be the solution to AA's NY problem and rationalize and streamline the northeast generally.


Whatever the combination, some of the players in the industry will be in such bad shape in 2021 that I don’t think there will be much pushback from DOJ. Perhaps a few asset divestitures.

An AA+AS+B6 threeway will breeze through.
 
United1
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:36 pm

trueblew wrote:
United1 wrote:
trueblew wrote:

They agreed to this when they ratified their pilot contract that includes scope language that permits agreements of this type. You don't get to approve deals of this nature and then be outraged when they get implemented.


It's not just the pilots, although I did specifically call them out. Every AA union is going to go insane over this if AA draws down NYC even further and leases slots out to B6 just to codeshare on their flights. While domestic codesharing wouldn't trigger the unions wrath farming out their members jobs will...that is certainly not something the unions agreed to.


It quite literally is what they agreed to.


Not to a mainline carrier like B6 they didn't....if you believe otherwise please cite the specific section of the contract that allows AA to cut their own flying, contract out those assets (slots/gates ect) to a mainline carrier, lay off AAs employees and then code share on that mainline carrier.

P.S. just because a MOU exists between two parties does not mean that both parties agree how everything in that contract is interpreted. I've been on both sides of the union fence over the last 20 years or so and I don't see any scenario where this doesn't end up as a battle.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
alfa164
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:48 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Interline agreements aren’t competition. Airlines don’t even need to seek approval for interline. There’s zero proof that competition is being reduced, just a bunch of A.netters and their per usual inane theories.


:checkmark: People seem to misunderstand... this is a major change on the part of Jetblue only, because - until now - they hesitated to interline with most of the other U.S. airlines (although they did experiment with it previously with AA). It is not a codeshare... nor a sharing of frequent flyer programs... nor should it be considered a prelude to a merger (let's nip that in the bud quickly!). Indeed, there is nothing to prevent B6 from interlining with any of the other U.S. majors (I don't believe WN's computer system lends itself to interlining, just as B6's hasn't in the past) even with this agreement in place.
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Midwestindy
Topic Author
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:03 pm

tphuang wrote:
kavok wrote:
I view this more of a situation where AA would be struggling to fill long haul international flights from BOS and JFK to anywhere but LHR, given the reduced presence by AA in both markets. And if AA can’t offer TATL flights to anywhere but LHR, they are essentially giving up the BOS and JFK business markets. Similarly, B6 is losing business pax to DL also because of their lack of any TATL service.

Thus AA provides the necessary TATL service B6 needs to be competitive, and B6 provides the necessary feed that AA needs to operate TATL beyond LHR from BOS/JFK. TATL is where I see the value in this partnership, and far less significant is any B6/AA domestic connections or codeshares that may occur.


I think there are a lot of AA ff in BOS area. With this move, those ff have no reason to move to DL. While at the same time, DL/UA ff now have a lot of reasons to move to AA. Also, there is more reason for people who traditionally stick with legacy airlines to try out JetBlue. What's the rationale for DL in BOS now?

Keep in mind, this does not stop JetBlue from launching TATL service. That's still going forward. The big deal here is all the slots/gates jetBlue will be getting at JFK/LGA/EWR. AA may have more feed now to try certain longer range markets that it couldn't try before. We will see.

Midwestindy wrote:

40 slots or less, is less than AA needs to operate hub and int'l flying from JFK, plus if AA truly wanted to get rid of these slots why would they not lease them to B6 or something creative........you know..... since the center piece of this agreement is B6 feeding AA long-haul from JFK!


a post-COVID schedule in peak summer month probably looks like this
10x LAX
4x SFO
4x PHX
6x MIA
2x DFW
4x CLT
2x ORD
4x LHR
1x CDG
1x MAD
1x TLV
1x GRU
1x EZE
1x Caribbean leisure

40 to 45 flights sound about right. AA probably had close to 120 slots before this started.


Your numbers are leaving out many destinations:
1. AA had 105 slots as of S19, that's public info, so no need to speculate on that. You are saying they got rid of 70, that would be 35 left.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... LS-S19.pdf

2. Your numbers assume AA cuts ALL non-hub flying within the US except SFO, all Carribean except CUN (which they have started back already), cut DCA, and no increases to hubs. Which are quite a few pills to swallow

Breaking down your analysis specifically, you left out:
BCN
FCO
CDG
MXP

All of which have a confirmed return
http://news.aa.com/news/news-details/20 ... fault.aspx

So just long haul international, assuming all 1x daily (except 4x LHR): BCN, FCO, CDG, MXP, GRU, EZE, TLV, ATH, LHR, & MAD. (seasonal GIG offset by seasonal FCO)

That is already 13 slots + 1 CUN, so that's 21 left for domestic, of which 10+ are going to LAX.

So there are 10 slots to be split between SFO, PHX, ORD, DFW, MIA, & CLT....AND again that's assuming they cut all Caribbean, DCA/BOS, & non-hub domestic
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klm617
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:09 pm

RvA wrote:
It’s a good thing AA has a lot of money spare to go and fight Delta in NYC with a partner they can’t legally coordinate very much with. Curious to see how this one will work out, should be interesting.



So I'm confused if AA and B6 can't coadunate schedules with each other how are all these connection carriers able to achieve that. It's been done for eons NW/CO and NW/DL did it as well.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 267
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Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:17 pm

klm617 wrote:
RvA wrote:
It’s a good thing AA has a lot of money spare to go and fight Delta in NYC with a partner they can’t legally coordinate very much with. Curious to see how this one will work out, should be interesting.



So I'm confused if AA and B6 can't coadunate schedules with each other how are all these connection carriers able to achieve that. It's been done for eons NW/CO and NW/DL did it as well.

Capacity Purchase Agreements are not the same thing as a Codeshare. You aren’t buying a ticket on SkyWest with their flight that has an American code on it, for example.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 6013
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:24 pm

alfa164 wrote:
MAH4546 wrote:
Interline agreements aren’t competition. Airlines don’t even need to seek approval for interline. There’s zero proof that competition is being reduced, just a bunch of A.netters and their per usual inane theories.


:checkmark: People seem to misunderstand... this is a major change on the part of Jetblue only, because - until now - they hesitated to interline with most of the other U.S. airlines (although they did experiment with it previously with AA). It is not a codeshare... nor a sharing of frequent flyer programs... nor should it be considered a prelude to a merger (let's nip that in the bud quickly!). Indeed, there is nothing to prevent B6 from interlining with any of the other U.S. majors (I don't believe WN's computer system lends itself to interlining, just as B6's hasn't in the past) even with this agreement in place.



What are you talking about?

It is right in the press release

“ The partnership includes an alliance agreement that proposes codeshare and loyalty benefits that will enhance each carrier's offerings in New York and Boston...”
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2269
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:36 pm

gaystudpilot wrote:
This sets the stage for the eventual next round of consolidation in the industry.

-AA+AS+B6


The question then being, who acquires who? Does AS pull off a HP-style takeover of AA? And B6 is forced to come along for the ride or be left out of the party?
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:16 pm

ScottB wrote:
TYWoolman wrote:
Didn't American warn it will lay off people? Can't this be considered outsourcing future growth in the Northeast at the detriment of those being convinced that furloughs are inevitable?


The optics here are really ugly with respect to AA's labor groups. Essentially AA has signaled they are throwing in the towel in non-hub domestic markets from NYC and handing over those customers to B6 while also announcing tens of thousands of layoffs. And the benefit to AA is feed for a couple of new long-haul flights, one of which is seasonal (along with another which will run for a month or two). They announced B6 will grow at LGA -- the source of that growth will be AA's slots. And FWIW, they're still competing with their own connections over PHL for long-haul, but giving the domestic feed to B6 at JFK. It feels like near-total capitulation on AA's part, although obviously NYC hasn't worked for them in years (and never was going to work with the America West guys running the show).


And in the long-term, what will be the case for American to launch new routes in direct competition with JetBlue?
 
airplanedaj
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:05 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:17 pm

EMB170 wrote:


(2) JFK-midwest, like IND, CMH, etc, could ultimately come back on B6, but if it came back on AA, it would be on larger Eagle flights, likely using E70/E75 equipment. IIRC IND-JFK was running on Eagle using EMB-145s, which aren't the most competitive offering. Also, don't forget that IND in particular is a base for RW, so Eagle may keep IND-JFK/BOS (vs. CMH or STL being farmed out to B6) simply to rotate aircraft in and out.



Add CMH, PIT, and MCI for Republic 175 bases.

I think a best of both worlds is AA adds more mid-continent flights like PIT, CMH, IND, MEM, BNA, STL, etc where they have better brand recognition and JBU bolsters their offerings in TCON, East Coast, FL and Caribbean flight. All feeds into a more robust TATL network for American.

Is it wishful thinking? Probably. Is Vasu Raja a wizard who would try to pull something like this out of his hat? Maybe
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2680
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:26 pm

lesfalls wrote:
-"Creating seamless connections"- We are talking about JFK. Not ATL or DFW. To connect at JFK you need to exit the airside zone, take the airtran and re-enter airside. That takes a lot of time and doesn't make it the "enjoyable" experience that they proclaim it to be. No way can B6 move to T8 as their operations are too big.


I can’t imagine it would be that difficult to set up an airside bus shuttle.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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OzarkD9S
Posts: 5717
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:31 pm

So when do AS and B6 announce their partnership?
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:33 pm

SteveXC500 wrote:
Rumor has it DL and WN are looking at similar.


That would make Delta's yesterday's genius, today's!
 
Tack
Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:13 pm

Re: AA & B6 announce Northeast Partnership

Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:37 pm

tphuang wrote:
there are a lot of AA ff in BOS area. With this move, those ff have no reason to move to DL. While at the same time, DL/UA ff now have a lot of reasons to move to AA. Also, there is more reason for people who traditionally stick with legacy airlines to try out JetBlue. What's the rationale for DL in BOS now?


This right here. AA now will have their code on flights of two of DL’s biggest competitors. I’ve always said it’s all about the network. The OW domestic network might’ve...might’ve...just became dominate. Time will tell.
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