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OzarkD9S
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Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilots)

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:11 pm

"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
737max8
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:16 pm

One of the most bizarre things I've heard!

So did their union completely fail them? Feel bad for the FAs...

I guess when the airline is that size they have more options for staffing.
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Blerg
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:17 pm

'The decision to fire all flight attendants comes after members of Icelandair’s flight attendant union voted against a collective bargaining agreement about a year ago. Management and flight attendants have been unable to come to an agreement regarding wages and time off.'

If they really refused to sign a new collective agreement during this kind of crisis then I think they had it coming and they deserved this. No airline has been spared during this crisis and airlines such as Icelandair, that rely heavily, almost exclusively on transfer traffic, have been especially affected.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:20 pm

Wouldn't pilots need to go through some kind of training first for FA duties? I guess it's much easier to get rid of FAs instead of pilots.
 
737max8
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:23 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
Wouldn't pilots need to go through some kind of training first for FA duties? I guess it's much easier to get rid of FAs instead of pilots.


Yeah, probably a few hours or days for basic FA duties, compared to the time it takes to go from nothing to 757 airline pilot...
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:41 pm

Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber
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mysterzip
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:45 pm

This is very sad. I’m still hoping there could be an agreement. Maybe Iceland’s government can step in, at the very least cover their unemployment or re-training.
However, this kind of environment, I think seeking other careers and establishing re-training courses could help people move on.
 
Varsity1
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:46 pm

In the U.S. pilots are trained on cabin door operation and emergency evacuation. The safety briefing is the only thing not trained.
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:49 pm

I would believe this is an onion (satire) article...except it is 2020...and this is real!
 
F9Animal
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:51 pm

This is beyond disturbing! I bet the pilots are excited to be walking through the cabin popping cans of diet coke.
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FlyinRabbit88
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:57 pm

No way should a pilot group accept this... and should stand with the FA group. Just because management can’t find some middle ground with the FA union they decide to take the nuclear option.

Glad this would never fly among the US airlines. Definitely crazy times!!!
 
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jscottwomack
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:57 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
https://onemileatatime.com/icelandair-fires-all-flight-attendants/?utm_source=BoardingArea&utm_medium=BoardingArea

Now that is cold.



Talk about expensive..... What are they going to pay pilots to do that? I don't know of any pilot that would accept the wages of a FA...
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 5:59 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber


Not so in terms of just a day or two. Cabin crew training is quite intensive and not just a day or two would be required. The flight attendant manual is extensive and requires up to 4-5 weeks to cover all the material including testing /verification .Then you also factor in the first aid component. Icao has a pretty good example from Transport Canada of what kind of basic curriculum most aviation authorities put trainees through. https://www.icao.int/safety/airnavigati ... andard.pdf
Last edited by cirrusdragoon on Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
Italianflyer
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:00 pm

I find it hard to believe that a country who prides itself on air-tight labor protections will allow this plan. Yes, desperate times call for desperate measures and every airline is fighting for survival. Perhaps this is a nuclear option to get the union and FAs to face facts.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:03 pm

jscottwomack wrote:

OzarkD9S wrote:
https://onemileatatime.com/icelandair-fires-all-flight-attendants/?utm_source=BoardingArea&utm_medium=BoardingArea

Now that is cold.



Talk about expensive..... What are they going to pay pilots to do that? I don't know of any pilot that would accept the wages of a FA...


Not being an expert in Icelandic unemployment compensation, and without any financial information in the press release, it would be most interesting to know what the Pilot-As-FA pay rate is going to be.
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aemoreira1981
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:04 pm

That's one way to bring back the pilots who could have been flying the MAX. Now, as for the former FI flight attendants, were many working outside of their field of education? Recall that when WW shut down, a lot of flight attendants went back to their prior fields.

As for FI's strategy...see here: https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/news ... er_collec/
 
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lightsaber
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:07 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber


Not so in terms of just a day or two. Cabin crew training is quite intensive and not just a day or two would be required. The flight attendant manual is extensive and requires up to 4-5 weeks to cover all the material including testing /verification .Then you also factor in the first aid component. Icao has a pretty good example from Transport Canada of what kind of basic curriculum most aviation authorities put trainees through. https://www.icao.int/safety/airnavigati ... andard.pdf

I was discussing the delta from pilot training. Much of that training, pilots already have. Wouldn't pilots already have first aid?

For flight testing, I had to be trained up and it wasn't that long a class.

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Airontario
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:15 pm

Pilots dealing with passenger complaints? That i'd like to see!
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:30 pm

lightsaber wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber


Not so in terms of just a day or two. Cabin crew training is quite intensive and not just a day or two would be required. The flight attendant manual is extensive and requires up to 4-5 weeks to cover all the material including testing /verification .Then you also factor in the first aid component. Icao has a pretty good example from Transport Canada of what kind of basic curriculum most aviation authorities put trainees through. https://www.icao.int/safety/airnavigati ... andard.pdf

I was discussing the delta from pilot training. Much of that training, pilots already have. Wouldn't pilots already have first aid?

For flight testing, I had to be trained up and it wasn't that long a class.

Lightsaber


Not in any jurisdiction I have been in , first aid is taught to the cabin crew. Hmm yes through the COM however cabin crew procedures have to still be learned , the FAM is written with the cabin crew responsibilities and the COM focussed towards the flight deck. A day or two would not cut it running through all cabin crew member roles and responsibilities. I will never forget those times when pilots have asked me , when I was a cabin crew, “ well what is it that your Flight Attendant Manual says because my COM says this?”

For example when I was working for a carrier in the UK, the pilots were not drilled on cabin fire fighting procedures, sure they learnt the basics but they never underwent the rigorous pass or fail scenario mock drills . That level of focus of learning the role of a cabin in all scenarios normal non normal is what extends the training time for a cabin crew so hence why I lean towards my opinion that it is not possible to just squeeze all this knowledge and verification into just a few days.
Last edited by cirrusdragoon on Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ojjunior
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:39 pm

Well, unions.
All is said.
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:41 pm

I am surprised the labour laws in Iceland would allow for this? In Canada this would not go forth it would be deemed as unfair bargaining. Wow.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:42 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber


Not so in terms of just a day or two. Cabin crew training is quite intensive and not just a day or two would be required. The flight attendant manual is extensive and requires up to 4-5 weeks to cover all the material including testing /verification .Then you also factor in the first aid component. Icao has a pretty good example from Transport Canada of what kind of basic curriculum most aviation authorities put trainees through. https://www.icao.int/safety/airnavigati ... andard.pdf


The FAA answered this for AA a generation ago: off the street to qualified FA, 10 days of training, none of which actually had to be on-board a real aircraft. If present FI pilots have a head start so much the better.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... b06d2e9d8/
 
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cirrusdragoon
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:46 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber


Not so in terms of just a day or two. Cabin crew training is quite intensive and not just a day or two would be required. The flight attendant manual is extensive and requires up to 4-5 weeks to cover all the material including testing /verification .Then you also factor in the first aid component. Icao has a pretty good example from Transport Canada of what kind of basic curriculum most aviation authorities put trainees through. https://www.icao.int/safety/airnavigati ... andard.pdf


The FAA answered this for AA a generation ago: off the street to qualified FA, 10 days of training, none of which actually had to be on-board a real aircraft. If present FI pilots have a head start so much the better.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... b06d2e9d8/


Thank you for this. Yes at least 10 days not a few days and that is just the Faa for the usa. Every jurisdiction would definitely have their own onus for sure.
 
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:55 pm

Wow, this is insane. What happens it comes time to get real FAs?
 
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Revelation
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:03 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
That's one way to bring back the pilots who could have been flying the MAX. Now, as for the former FI flight attendants, were many working outside of their field of education? Recall that when WW shut down, a lot of flight attendants went back to their prior fields.

As for FI's strategy...see here: https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/news ... er_collec/

Kinda interesting:

Icelandair might opt to begin negotiations with the union that previously represented the cabin crew and pilots of now defunct WOW air. That same union recently reached an agreement with newly formed airline Play which aims to start flying in the fall. It might also be possible that attendants who were unhappy with how they were represented by FFI will start their own union. In the last round of voting 26% of FFI members approved of Icelandair‘s offer while 73% declined.

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EBiafore99
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:07 pm

Based on what I read, in June, FI and the Union did reach an agreement that went to 2025. However, the membership rejected the agreement. If this is accurate, I don't have much sympathy for the flight attendants. Maybe in normal times, rejecting a contract is just part of the "game" between labor and management. However, we are not in normal times. FI is barely operating flights. I can't fathom what more the flight attendants wanted that they would reject the contract.
 
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:17 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
jscottwomack wrote:

OzarkD9S wrote:
https://onemileatatime.com/icelandair-fires-all-flight-attendants/?utm_source=BoardingArea&utm_medium=BoardingArea

Now that is cold.



Talk about expensive..... What are they going to pay pilots to do that? I don't know of any pilot that would accept the wages of a FA...


Not being an expert in Icelandic unemployment compensation, and without any financial information in the press release, it would be most interesting to know what the Pilot-As-FA pay rate is going to be.


They have to pay the pilots anyway. If the pilots have guaranteed minimum hours, they are getting paid to sit at home with very little flying going on. So that money is being spent either way. They can get on board and do the announcements and hand out water and it costs the company the same amount of money.

Not agreeing with the move at all, but from a cost saving perspective it is interesting.
 
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:21 pm

Flight attendants are usually a specific group of polished professionals that have very good people skills including an ability to remain calm and empathize with passengers when they experience discomfort or a challenging airline situation. Many airline pilots I know are good people, but they often lack the soft skills they need to gracefully look after hundreds of disgruntled passengers every day. You really need those soft skills in the back as much as you need hard skills in the front. I don’t think I’d want a seasoned pilot serving me on a long-haul flight. Not a good fit for the job.
 
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:36 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber

Many, many moons ago, a certain aviation legend in the regional airline business got tired of cancelling flights because the flight attendant flaked out after a night at the bar, and/or called off.
So he spent the money to have all station mngrs and sups get certified as flight attendants for the F-27 and the BAC. NO FA would never again be an excuse to cancel an originator in an outstation.
Different rules in the 80's for regionals.
Last edited by FlyingElvii on Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:40 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Wow, this is insane. What happens it comes time to get real FAs?


4 weeks from hire to the line...
Let's get real, the requirements aren't that much, are mostly due to regulatory and insurance requirements, and there is always a fresh crop of new young girls looking for international adventures.
 
Flaps
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:05 pm

I think this is awesome. Kudos to FI for having the balls to go ahead with it. Pilots can swap legs and remain current on the aircraft and a problem group is removed from the equation. This is going to last awhile so the FA's can easily replaced off the street as needed.
 
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:25 pm

Blerg wrote:
'The decision to fire all flight attendants comes after members of Icelandair’s flight attendant union voted against a collective bargaining agreement about a year ago. Management and flight attendants have been unable to come to an agreement regarding wages and time off.'

If they really refused to sign a new collective agreement during this kind of crisis then I think they had it coming and they deserved this. No airline has been spared during this crisis and airlines such as Icelandair, that rely heavily, almost exclusively on transfer traffic, have been especially affected.


Don't say such thing ... The airline I am working with is trying to implement everything we have been against in the past years ... taking a "buddy pass"from pandemic ...Things like no allowance for food even though we are under 50% pay cut on our wages since las April .... besides it they are trying to get a 2/3 pay cut in our salaries PERMANENTLY .... so be careful with your assumptions .... some airlines are trying hard to get the best opportunities on their staff expences ....
 
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:30 pm

People really need to consider the full picture of the current situation here.

Currently FI is operating less than 10 departures per day from KEF - a fraction of the pre-COVID numbers.

FI's bread and butter is TATL travel, which is going to be basically non-existant for the foreseeable future.

The onboard service consists currently of a water bottle. Everyone is wearing masks. A thing called onboard service does not currently exist. It's not like the pilots will be expected to behave in a service employee -kind of manner.They will be there just to fulfill the safety requirements - and will probably be happy to do so, since it means that they're at least getting paid (probably normal pilot wages).

Whenever there will be any form of proper recovery, there is a threat of another WOW/Play reincarnation appearing, potentially with much lower labor costs (as evidenced in the article). FI can't endanger their recovery by allowing a potential new competitor to enter with lower labor costs. Especially as the O/D market is heavily leisure-oriented, prone to competition with LCC cost structures.

Tourism accounted pre-COVID for more than 10% of the Icelandic GDP, and more than 40% of the exports. Obviously, Icelandic economy in general is in dire straits right now. I don't know the details of the situation, but common sense suggests that anyone who even has a source of income should be happy of having one, even if it's on a substantially lower wage than before.
 
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klm617
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:39 pm

I think "fire" is a pretty strong word perhaps "laid-off" is a better likeness to what is happening here.
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CFM565A1
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:45 pm

That's BS... I hope these "ex-pilots" show the company the mistake they made quickly when they act as FA's!
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Blerg
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:51 pm

CFM565A1 wrote:
That's BS... I hope these "ex-pilots" show the company the mistake they made quickly when they act as FA's!


Why would they do that? Obviously they accepted to do this because they know how difficult the situation is these days unlike their colleagues who were let go.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:52 pm

klm617 wrote:

I think "fire" is a pretty strong word perhaps "laid-off" is a better likeness to what is happening here.


https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2020 ... th-pilots/

Fair use excerpt:

"Icelandair suggested cabin crew would have no chance of being allowed back even if they agree to a new contract saying it would “permanently terminate the employment of its current cabin crew members.”

Still think "fire" is too strong a word?
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Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:59 pm

Blerg wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
That's BS... I hope these "ex-pilots" show the company the mistake they made quickly when they act as FA's!


Why would they do that? Obviously they accepted to do this because they know how difficult the situation is these days unlike their colleagues who were let go.

For Iceland pilots, it is the only job in town. Unless they want to go fly chickens and pigs around in African war zones, of course. They will do whatever it takes to stay employed, especially in this situation.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:01 pm

737max8 wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
Wouldn't pilots need to go through some kind of training first for FA duties? I guess it's much easier to get rid of FAs instead of pilots.


Yeah, probably a few hours or days for basic FA duties, compared to the time it takes to go from nothing to 757 airline pilot...


Nobody asked what the difference between training for a Pilot and a FA are - the question was "wouldn't pilots need to go through some kind of training first for FA duties?" and the answer is yes. Two different skills sets, and while one is much more easily learned, it still takes learning and practice. Pilots aren't taught how to use the PBE, the AED, how to quickly and efficiently evacuate a full airplane among many other things. These things may be more easily learned than learning how to fly a 757 but if they don't know them, they don't know them - and believe it or not, the training program for FA's is fairly rigorous and generally involves very little service training - most of it is about use and operation of the emergency equipment in the cabin of the airplane. Instead of trying to belittle what FA's do maybe just stick to answering the question asked.
 
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:02 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Blerg wrote:
CFM565A1 wrote:
That's BS... I hope these "ex-pilots" show the company the mistake they made quickly when they act as FA's!


Why would they do that? Obviously they accepted to do this because they know how difficult the situation is these days unlike their colleagues who were let go.

For Iceland pilots, it is the only job in town. Unless they want to go fly chickens and pigs around in African war zones, of course. They will do whatever it takes to stay employed, especially in this situation.


If they have a union and a contract they don't necessarily have to do these things - even if Icelandair may be a really great job in a place where jobs aren't as plentiful. They should stand by their cabin crews who would stand by them.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1723
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:08 pm

EFHK wrote:
People really need to consider the full picture of the current situation here.

Currently FI is operating less than 10 departures per day from KEF - a fraction of the pre-COVID numbers.

FI's bread and butter is TATL travel, which is going to be basically non-existant for the foreseeable future.

The onboard service consists currently of a water bottle. Everyone is wearing masks. A thing called onboard service does not currently exist. It's not like the pilots will be expected to behave in a service employee -kind of manner.They will be there just to fulfill the safety requirements - and will probably be happy to do so, since it means that they're at least getting paid (probably normal pilot wages).

Whenever there will be any form of proper recovery, there is a threat of another WOW/Play reincarnation appearing, potentially with much lower labor costs (as evidenced in the article). FI can't endanger their recovery by allowing a potential new competitor to enter with lower labor costs. Especially as the O/D market is heavily leisure-oriented, prone to competition with LCC cost structures.

Tourism accounted pre-COVID for more than 10% of the Icelandic GDP, and more than 40% of the exports. Obviously, Icelandic economy in general is in dire straits right now. I don't know the details of the situation, but common sense suggests that anyone who even has a source of income should be happy of having one, even if it's on a substantially lower wage than before.


If Icelandair is going to train the pilots on use and operation of the emergency equipment in the cabin, and then how to evacuate an airplane efficiently and quickly on both land and water, using slides and life rafts, addressing medical emergencies, etc. then okay. Even when there was still any sort of meaningful onboard service, the FA's were there because government regulations required FA's to be able to do these things. It involved learning and proving that you were proficient. They were there in a safety capacity. Airlines decided to use them as service ambassadors at the same time. Nevertheless, these Pilots need to stand by their crews as they would want the same done for themselves.
 
EFHK
Posts: 423
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:30 pm

ASFlyer wrote:
EFHK wrote:
People really need to consider the full picture of the current situation here.

Currently FI is operating less than 10 departures per day from KEF - a fraction of the pre-COVID numbers.

FI's bread and butter is TATL travel, which is going to be basically non-existant for the foreseeable future.

The onboard service consists currently of a water bottle. Everyone is wearing masks. A thing called onboard service does not currently exist. It's not like the pilots will be expected to behave in a service employee -kind of manner.They will be there just to fulfill the safety requirements - and will probably be happy to do so, since it means that they're at least getting paid (probably normal pilot wages).

Whenever there will be any form of proper recovery, there is a threat of another WOW/Play reincarnation appearing, potentially with much lower labor costs (as evidenced in the article). FI can't endanger their recovery by allowing a potential new competitor to enter with lower labor costs. Especially as the O/D market is heavily leisure-oriented, prone to competition with LCC cost structures.

Tourism accounted pre-COVID for more than 10% of the Icelandic GDP, and more than 40% of the exports. Obviously, Icelandic economy in general is in dire straits right now. I don't know the details of the situation, but common sense suggests that anyone who even has a source of income should be happy of having one, even if it's on a substantially lower wage than before.


If Icelandair is going to train the pilots on use and operation of the emergency equipment in the cabin, and then how to evacuate an airplane efficiently and quickly on both land and water, using slides and life rafts, addressing medical emergencies, etc. then okay. Even when there was still any sort of meaningful onboard service, the FA's were there because government regulations required FA's to be able to do these things. It involved learning and proving that you were proficient. They were there in a safety capacity. Airlines decided to use them as service ambassadors at the same time. Nevertheless, these Pilots need to stand by their crews as they would want the same done for themselves.


I obviously don't know the details of FA training requirements, especially not in Iceland where they may differ, or the standards of training for FI pilots. However, since this plan was announced today, and stated that the new practices will be in effect from 20th of July, it suggests to me that they're not expecting any sort of additional training to be very time-consuming at all. Or, then there may not be very many FI aircraft taking off on 20th of July.

Surely the pilots don't want the same to be done for them - that's why they're doing this. If the company doesn't survive, there will be a new one with much lower wages for most than before.

Obviously, since this is still very fresh news, I wouldn't be surprised if the government interfered somehow with the situation, or if the pilots would have some other stance by Monday.
 
PowerJet
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:17 pm

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:41 pm

737max8 wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
Wouldn't pilots need to go through some kind of training first for FA duties? I guess it's much easier to get rid of FAs instead of pilots.


Yeah, probably a few hours or days for basic FA duties, compared to the time it takes to go from nothing to 757 airline pilot...



Pretty injudicious statement. Not everyone qualifies to be a flight attendant. Some people have waited their entire lives to do such a thing. Have a heart.
 
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klm617
Posts: 4998
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:43 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
klm617 wrote:

I think "fire" is a pretty strong word perhaps "laid-off" is a better likeness to what is happening here.


https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2020 ... th-pilots/

Fair use excerpt:

"Icelandair suggested cabin crew would have no chance of being allowed back even if they agree to a new contract saying it would “permanently terminate the employment of its current cabin crew members.”

Still think "fire" is too strong a word?


This is the kind off stuff that airlines (And companies) can get away with without any competition in the market. And peoplwe talked about WOW Air everyone eventually shows their true colors in the face of adversity.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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CrewBunk
Posts: 92
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:57 pm

Airontario wrote:
Pilots dealing with passenger complaints? That i'd like to see!


That was my thought as well.

After watching Flight Attendants deal expertly with difficult passengers, I am forever grateful that I work forward of the Kevlar door, and not behind it.
 
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zeke
Posts: 15098
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:04 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
https://onemileatatime.com/icelandair-fires-all-flight-attendants/?utm_source=BoardingArea&utm_medium=BoardingArea

Now that is cold.


It is Iceland
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
CRJ900
Posts: 2388
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:08 pm

I think managers at many other airlines are watching this case closely - I personally think many FAs will be out of a job this way at many airlines over the next months.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
EFHK
Posts: 423
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:08 pm

klm617 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
klm617 wrote:

I think "fire" is a pretty strong word perhaps "laid-off" is a better likeness to what is happening here.


https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2020 ... th-pilots/

Fair use excerpt:

"Icelandair suggested cabin crew would have no chance of being allowed back even if they agree to a new contract saying it would “permanently terminate the employment of its current cabin crew members.”

Still think "fire" is too strong a word?


This is the kind off stuff that airlines (And companies) can get away with without any competition in the market. And peoplwe talked about WOW Air everyone eventually shows their true colors in the face of adversity.


You do realize that this move is being done also because of competition?

FI now wants to negotiate with the union that represented for WOW/future Play. That is to make sure, that they stay competitive, and don't allow a potential competitor to gain a significant labor cost advantage, if/when COVID recovery starts to happen.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24303
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:10 pm

EFHK wrote:
People really need to consider the full picture of the current situation here.

Currently FI is operating less than 10 departures per day from KEF - a fraction of the pre-COVID numbers.

FI's bread and butter is TATL travel, which is going to be basically non-existant for the foreseeable future.

The onboard service consists currently of a water bottle. Everyone is wearing masks. A thing called onboard service does not currently exist. It's not like the pilots will be expected to behave in a service employee -kind of manner.They will be there just to fulfill the safety requirements - and will probably be happy to do so, since it means that they're at least getting paid (probably normal pilot wages).

Whenever there will be any form of proper recovery, there is a threat of another WOW/Play reincarnation appearing, potentially with much lower labor costs (as evidenced in the article). FI can't endanger their recovery by allowing a potential new competitor to enter with lower labor costs. Especially as the O/D market is heavily leisure-oriented, prone to competition with LCC cost structures.

Tourism accounted pre-COVID for more than 10% of the Icelandic GDP, and more than 40% of the exports. Obviously, Icelandic economy in general is in dire straits right now. I don't know the details of the situation, but common sense suggests that anyone who even has a source of income should be happy of having one, even if it's on a substantially lower wage than before.

It's not just TATL travel, it's largely discretionary TATL travel with pax who are willing to go a few hours out of their way and change planes in the middle of the night.

FlyingElvii wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Wow, this is insane. What happens it comes time to get real FAs?

4 weeks from hire to the line...
Let's get real, the requirements aren't that much, are mostly due to regulatory and insurance requirements, and there is always a fresh crop of new young girls looking for international adventures.

Ok, so what will FI be doing for the next four weeks to get those 10 flights a day in the air?

Does FI have non-union management current on whatever training they need till the spare pilots are able to take over?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24303
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:17 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
I think managers at many other airlines are watching this case closely - I personally think many FAs will be out of a job this way at many airlines over the next months.

In what other jurisdictions would the "fire everyone and cherry pick a new union" move be legal?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

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