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itisi
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:41 pm

FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
No way should a pilot group accept this... and should stand with the FA group. Just because management can’t find some middle ground with the FA union they decide to take the nuclear option.

Glad this would never fly among the US airlines. Definitely crazy times!!!


Yeah .. just all fight the company that pays you in seriously bad times, all get fired together .. much better
737-300/400/500 ... are NOT classics :)
 
battlegroup62
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:58 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
In the U.S. pilots are trained on cabin door operation and emergency evacuation. The safety briefing is the only thing not trained.


Are they? My company has had more slides blown due to pilots that any other reason. I had one who was new to the company less than a month and they had no idea how to disarm the door much less open it. Training is definitely company specific but I think some of the people slept through class since I had another crew not know what caging a digital gyro was.
We have to keep planes airworthy. That doesn't mean they have to fly.
 
IADCA
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:25 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Wow, this is insane. What happens it comes time to get real FAs?


I suspect the elephant in the room with the negotiation and public posturing is that there are a lot of former WW FAs out there who have the relevant training and might like to get back in the air.
 
eaa3
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Fri Jul 17, 2020 11:29 pm

The union contract that was agreed to, but then voted down didn’t lower salaries, but rather raised the lowest group (most junior), whilst keeping the rest unchanged. Most of the changes came from keeping the monthly wage unchanged, but adding around 150 blockhours per year to the roster.

The flight attendants wanted their wages to rise and a smaller increase in work hours.

The average salary for Icelandair flight attendants is $64k per year and they work around 650 blockhours per year. The European regulatory max is 900.

By comparison, BA flight mixed fleet attendants make an average of $20k (£16k) and fly closer to 900 (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/Brit ... O16,38.htm)

This is the fundamental problem, an Icelandair flight attendant makes on average 3x more than a BA flight attendant, whilst the BA flight attendant works more. I know some US crew make more, but the comparison with Europe is problematic.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:38 am

PowerJet wrote:
737max8 wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
Wouldn't pilots need to go through some kind of training first for FA duties? I guess it's much easier to get rid of FAs instead of pilots.


Yeah, probably a few hours or days for basic FA duties, compared to the time it takes to go from nothing to 757 airline pilot...



Pretty injudicious statement. Not everyone qualifies to be a flight attendant. Some people have waited their entire lives to do such a thing. Have a heart.
Perhaps in the past, but not anymore.
We are talking about survival of the entire Industry now.

And remember, it was "Air Hostess" until the Union organization movements of the late 80's and 90's.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:52 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
cirrusdragoon wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber


Not so in terms of just a day or two. Cabin crew training is quite intensive and not just a day or two would be required. The flight attendant manual is extensive and requires up to 4-5 weeks to cover all the material including testing /verification .Then you also factor in the first aid component. Icao has a pretty good example from Transport Canada of what kind of basic curriculum most aviation authorities put trainees through. https://www.icao.int/safety/airnavigati ... andard.pdf


The FAA answered this for AA a generation ago: off the street to qualified FA, 10 days of training, none of which actually had to be on-board a real aircraft. If present FI pilots have a head start so much the better.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... b06d2e9d8/


That’s the USA. We are talking about Iceland here.
 
tofur
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:50 am

lightsaber wrote:
Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber


Dear Sir:
I always look forward to reading your posts and opinions.

Your dalliance with perhaps arming, disarming a door on one type of aircraft, or opening said door in an evacuation is hardly respective of cabin crew evacuation duties. Furthermore the yearly recurrent training for my airline is 2 and a half days in class, plus 10 hours online learning and a written workbook that takes at least 4 hours to complete. Ninety percent is the pass mark on written tests, only one "redo" on evacuation drills, of which there are several; land, water, life raft or no life raft, dual exit land and water. If not successful, another full week of remedial training. That is at least four days of "refresher" training yearly after having completed the initial training which takes four weeks for safety training only.

For goodness sake, CPR and AED initial training is at least one day, and any civilian, medical training does not count towards your aviation qualification. Aviation medicine is different from traditional medicine, due to limitations onboard the aircraft according to the many nurses I work with who are cabin crew.

One thing I have noticed in CRM training with the flight deck crews is that we are always learning from one another and the level of respect for each others responsibilities grows each year. Safety is not complete, one group without the other.

To be fair, I realize you are neither a flight deck or cabin crew member. I would ask that you not make assumptions concerning something you are not privy to.

Yours respectfully.
 
HVN2HEL2LAX
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:25 am

What happens if a Pilot fails the FA training?
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:02 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
PowerJet wrote:
737max8 wrote:

Yeah, probably a few hours or days for basic FA duties, compared to the time it takes to go from nothing to 757 airline pilot...



Pretty injudicious statement. Not everyone qualifies to be a flight attendant. Some people have waited their entire lives to do such a thing. Have a heart.
Perhaps in the past, but not anymore.
We are talking about survival of the entire Industry now.

And remember, it was "Air Hostess" until the Union organization movements of the late 80's and 90's.


“Air Hostess” and “stewardess” became obsolete terms I the late 1960s...very early 70s at the latest in some cases...not the late 80s and 90s.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:09 am

"Putting lipstick on a pig" takes a whole new meaning at FI.

Pilots, show 'em who wears the skirts in Iceland.
 
cvg2lga
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:47 am

[quote="The onboard service consists currently of a water bottle. Everyone is wearing masks. A thing called onboard service does not currently exist. It's not like the pilots will be expected to behave in a service employee -kind of manner.They will be there just to fulfill the safety requirements - and will probably be happy to do so, since it means that they're at least getting paid (probably normal pilot wages).[/quote]

You're way off in that assumption. Pilots are most happy when they're still getting paid and not having to work for it.
They don't call em' emergencies anymore. They call em' Patronies.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:22 am

Varsity1 wrote:
In the U.S. pilots are trained on cabin door operation and emergency evacuation. The safety briefing is the only thing not trained.


Not true. My experience Is that most pilots have little knowledge about cabin doors and evacuations beyond...maybe...what they learned by opening the safety briefing card while deadheading.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:50 am

Icelandair must have a massive surplus of pilots. For a 757 they will need at least 4 FAs maybe more depending on Iceland's regulations. Typically, they would only need 2 pilots for the 757. They need at least 5 FAs for the 767 and 757-300. Only 2 pilots usually needed for those. Pilot groups are usually much smaller than flight attendant.

If Icelandair is using line pilots as FAs, I wonder regulatory wise how time working as an FA would count against their monthly and yearly pilot duty regulations if Icelandair wanted to also use them as pilots as needed.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:03 am

Also to be clear, if a union pilot group in the US or Canada agreed to something like this they would be blacklisted as scabs by other pilot groups and denied employment and jumpseats at other airlines. Non-union pilots would also be blacklisted by union carriers for scabing in this way.

I believe under US law this would be considered a lockout and the FAs not permanently allowed to be fired.
 
Whatsaptudo
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:19 am

millionsofmiles wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
In the U.S. pilots are trained on cabin door operation and emergency evacuation. The safety briefing is the only thing not trained.


Not true. My experience Is that most pilots have little knowledge about cabin doors and evacuations beyond...maybe...what they learned by opening the safety briefing card while deadheading.


I'd bet it is true. In Australia pilots Emergency procedures training (and its all being evaluated while we are doing it) is the same as the FA's. It's law.
Of course, pilots only have to do it on one aircraft type and we don't do first aid. But even the FA's have different levels of first aid training depending on which category they are.
So in short, pilots must do the evacuation/door arming/ opening etc........ just as FA's do.
That being said, I think this proposal is a bit ridiculous, and I sure wouldn't want to get involved.
 
bluecrew
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:05 am

Whatsaptudo wrote:
millionsofmiles wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
In the U.S. pilots are trained on cabin door operation and emergency evacuation. The safety briefing is the only thing not trained.


Not true. My experience Is that most pilots have little knowledge about cabin doors and evacuations beyond...maybe...what they learned by opening the safety briefing card while deadheading.


I'd bet it is true. In Australia pilots Emergency procedures training (and its all being evaluated while we are doing it) is the same as the FA's. It's law.
Of course, pilots only have to do it on one aircraft type and we don't do first aid. But even the FA's have different levels of first aid training depending on which category they are.
So in short, pilots must do the evacuation/door arming/ opening etc........ just as FA's do.
That being said, I think this proposal is a bit ridiculous, and I sure wouldn't want to get involved.

In the US, at least, no pilot undergoes anything like training for FA's. Anywhere between 4 and 12 weeks are dedicated to anything from basic soft skills to firefighting to diagnosing and responding to common medical issues to evacuation drills.
And NO new-hire flight attendant will tell you they're 100% proficient with all the stuff they learned in training. For the stuff being learned, a 3 hour module on CPR is just. not. sufficient. Running an evac drill on say, the 737-700 twice and then doing a proficiency does not drill down the muscle memory required, etc. Then, the next time they'd even see the card for a planned evac would be, usually, two years later, because recurrent has been stripped down to two 9-5 days at the training center.
Good luck training your pilots to do all of this in a 3 day class. Strip the service standards, don't bother with the soft skills, I doubt you'll find a junior 757 FO who just got essentially furloughed who isn't gonna lose it the first time a passenger complains. Hopefully, nothing bad happens. And good luck getting any of the FA's to come back to your company, ever.

From a purely industry solidarity perspective, this is completely horrifying.
 
HVN2HEL2LAX
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:14 am

Well we know they operate 757s. BUT say you have less then 50 people on board. Do you still need a FA? I mean there are some smaller airlines out there operating smaller aircraft that have no FA. So what if they just limit the # of pax so no FA is required.

Is that even feasible/legal?
Last edited by HVN2HEL2LAX on Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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millionsofmiles
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:18 am

HVN2HEL2LAX wrote:
Well we know they operate 757s. BUT say you have less then 50 people on board. Do you still need a FA? I mean there are some smaller airlines out there operating smaller aircraft that have no FA. So what if they just limit the # of pax so no FA is required.

Is that even feasible/legal?


The number of flight attendants required worldwide is based on number of seats, not number of passengers.
 
Whatsaptudo
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:28 am

Fair enough. Maybe it’s different in the USA, however, I doubt it. If your going to be so rude, tell us your qualifications, miles? I’m an airline pilot that by law has to do all these things in front of evaluators from CASA, and pass ever 12 months to keep my job. Pilots are required by law, to run an evacuation, open, close, arm and disarm the doors, know where the emergency equipment is located (even ridiculous things that can be found at doors 5 on the 747. As if I’m ever going to down there looking for emergency equipment) How do you think we do it when there are no FA’s on board?
 
MartijnNL
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:40 am

usdcaguy wrote:
Many airline pilots I know are good people, but they often lack the soft skills they need to gracefully look after hundreds of disgruntled passengers every day.

But there are no hundreds of passengers every day, let alone disgruntled passengers. Hardly anybody is flying now.

usdcaguy wrote:
I don’t think I’d want a seasoned pilot serving me on a long-haul flight.

I think I'd prefer a seasoned pilot serving me on a long-haul flight. It would make for a lot more interesting conversation.
 
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DL752
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:53 am

usdcaguy wrote:
Flight attendants are usually a specific group of polished professionals that have very good people skills including an ability to remain calm and empathize with passengers when they experience discomfort or a challenging airline situation. Many airline pilots I know are good people, but they often lack the soft skills they need to gracefully look after hundreds of disgruntled passengers every day. You really need those soft skills in the back as much as you need hard skills in the front. I don’t think I’d want a seasoned pilot serving me on a long-haul flight. Not a good fit for the job.


Thank you for that respectful response. As a Cabin Crew member, I, and I believe I speak for all of my co-workers appreciate your recognition of how complex the role can be. I have met Captains who are excellent in dealing with passengers, keeping calm, and performing evacuation duties. Some are more driven to get to the destination efficiently without any questions. Multiple times I've heard.. "I don't know how you do it back there." Bottom line is Flight Attendants appreciate Pilots immensely and Pilots appreciate Flight Attendants immensely but I do believe this will effect Customer Service scores and overall retention and satisfaction with FI. There is just a different tone when speaking or requesting service from two differently trained employee groups.

There are aspects of safety to the aircraft and passengers that take weeks in training to understand that aren't typically touched by Pilots so I also share the concern of what would happen in an emergency in an unfamiliar environment.

I do hope they stand with the Flight Attendants like I have seen many times before at my own airlines.

Stay safe everyone,

DL752 :airplane:
 
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DL752
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:03 am

tofur wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber


Dear Sir:
I always look forward to reading your posts and opinions.

Your dalliance with perhaps arming, disarming a door on one type of aircraft, or opening said door in an evacuation is hardly respective of cabin crew evacuation duties. Furthermore the yearly recurrent training for my airline is 2 and a half days in class, plus 10 hours online learning and a written workbook that takes at least 4 hours to complete. Ninety percent is the pass mark on written tests, only one "redo" on evacuation drills, of which there are several; land, water, life raft or no life raft, dual exit land and water. If not successful, another full week of remedial training. That is at least four days of "refresher" training yearly after having completed the initial training which takes four weeks for safety training only.

For goodness sake, CPR and AED initial training is at least one day, and any civilian, medical training does not count towards your aviation qualification. Aviation medicine is different from traditional medicine, due to limitations onboard the aircraft according to the many nurses I work with who are cabin crew.

One thing I have noticed in CRM training with the flight deck crews is that we are always learning from one another and the level of respect for each others responsibilities grows each year. Safety is not complete, one group without the other.

To be fair, I realize you are neither a flight deck or cabin crew member. I would ask that you not make assumptions concerning something you are not privy to.

Yours respectfully.


I'm with you! Flight Attendant training was more rigorous than college.
Drills especially like you explain.
Commanding one thing, preparing for the next, and operating another all at once without confusion and learning different procedures on 19 aircraft.

4 out of 6 weeks of training is emergency, medical, defense, and operations of aircraft.
One to three days for service standards.

Every member on the aircraft works hard and I respect all positions.
So, it doesn't feel nice to be "downplayed" especially when safety and saving hundreds of lives is a shared goal.

DL752 :airplane:
 
thepinkmachine
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:53 am

Who would have thought, that this good old video turned out to be a prophecy? :mrgreen:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WBkk_RVsUkw
"Tell my wife I am trawling Atlantis - and I still have my hands on the wheel…"
 
airtran737
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:04 am

Varsity1 wrote:
In the U.S. pilots are trained on cabin door operation and emergency evacuation. The safety briefing is the only thing not trained.


I wasn’t trained on CPR, operating an AED or slinging drinks.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
MIflyer12
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
CRJ900 wrote:
I think managers at many other airlines are watching this case closely - I personally think many FAs will be out of a job this way at many airlines over the next months.

In what other jurisdictions would the "fire everyone and cherry pick a new union" move be legal?


That question, Revelation, is an interesting one. I can imagine a broad (and not really helpful) answer being 'Where union influence in national law is small,' but even the U.S. prohibits that.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:36 pm

Any word from user SRQKEF...?
I believe his old man is a driver for FI.
Would be interesting to get a view from someone involved .
 
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Revelation
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:38 pm

itisi wrote:
FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
No way should a pilot group accept this... and should stand with the FA group. Just because management can’t find some middle ground with the FA union they decide to take the nuclear option.

Glad this would never fly among the US airlines. Definitely crazy times!!!


Yeah .. just all fight the company that pays you in seriously bad times, all get fired together .. much better

Freedom is the right to do what you want to do, even if others think it is stupid.

eaa3 wrote:
The union contract that was agreed to, but then voted down didn’t lower salaries, but rather raised the lowest group (most junior), whilst keeping the rest unchanged. Most of the changes came from keeping the monthly wage unchanged, but adding around 150 blockhours per year to the roster.

The flight attendants wanted their wages to rise and a smaller increase in work hours.

The average salary for Icelandair flight attendants is $64k per year and they work around 650 blockhours per year. The European regulatory max is 900.

By comparison, BA flight mixed fleet attendants make an average of $20k (£16k) and fly closer to 900 (https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salary/Brit ... O16,38.htm)

This is the fundamental problem, an Icelandair flight attendant makes on average 3x more than a BA flight attendant, whilst the BA flight attendant works more. I know some US crew make more, but the comparison with Europe is problematic.

Oy, now there's something that's stupid. That pretty much is poverty wages ( ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_i ... ed_Kingdom ).
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
MIflyer12
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:39 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
Thank you for this. Yes at least 10 days not a few days and that is just the Faa for the usa. Every jurisdiction would definitely have their own onus for sure.


Certainly requirements can vary by jurisdiction. I would be reluctant to call FA jobs 'semi-skilled.' I don't want Coca Light poured on my head every time drink service is conducted. Minimal legal requirements can be pretty modest, indeed, though. Elsewhere I have asserted that, in time of furloughs, pilots and mechanics would be protected by their skill sets and difficulty in replacement in a way that some other airline workers would not. in the U.S. we're starting to see this in projections of furloughs by craft by carrier: pilots and mechanics are seeing smaller cuts as a fraction of total craft. That FI is willing to terminate FAs en masse is pretty bold.
 
VSMUT
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:41 pm

I bet they will be running an absolute barebones level of service, with pilots only manning the emergency exits and doors for takeoff and landing, and otherwise retreating to the galley. Service at the most a bottle of water at boarding, if even that. Safety demonstrations reduced to videos on the drop down screens.
 
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Revelation
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
That FI is willing to terminate FAs en masse is pretty bold.

That, or desperate.

I'm definitely pro-labor but this seems to be a case where management can really make the case there is NO money available even for token raises and the company really needs some work rule concessions too, due to LCC competition.

Sure it stinks from a labor point of view to get no raises and have to work more hours, but if you really feel that way you have to accept the consequences of refusing the offer.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ltbewr
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:33 pm

I don't see how firing FA's and reassigning pilots to FA duties would be legal under USA, Canadian and EU rules/laws to allow them to operate to/from them.
 
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CrewBunk
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:33 pm

millionsofmiles wrote:
The number of flight attendants required worldwide is based on number of seats, not number of passengers.


It depends on the country. In Canada, wide body Flight Attendant crew compliment is predicated on number of passengers, subject to an aircraft type minimum.
 
Toinou
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:46 pm

The decision to fire all flight attendants comes after members of Icelandair’s flight attendant union voted against a collective bargaining agreement about a year ago.

According to this sentence of linked article in OP, the agreement was rejected long before this crisis started. So it seems a bit difficult to accuse Icelandair's FAs not to take into account the current situation. From what I get, this is just an argument trying to sell some PR about this decision.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:00 pm

Revelation wrote:
Sure it stinks from a labor point of view to get no raises and have to work more hours, but if you really feel that way you have to accept the consequences of refusing the offer.


You earlier raised the question, Where does a company get to refuse to negotiate with its appointed bargainer? Not in the U.S. (Not in Germany, Belgium or Switzerland, either, but my understanding of relevant national law there is weaker.) AA can't terminate all its pilots and say it wants a different group of pilots with different work rules.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:06 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Any word from user SRQKEF...?
I believe his old man is a driver for FI.
Would be interesting to get a view from someone involved .


Due to multiple conflicts of interest, I won't be commenting directly on this matter. Thank you for remembering me though. :smile:

Just to address some misattributed facts thrown around in this thread, without adding my own opinion to any of this:

- The agreement was signed by the union in late June and voted out by its members in early July, so it's not the same as the agreement some have mentioned from last year. In between that time the heads of the union sent out a message to FAs saying that they'd (the union) made a mistake in the wording of a clausule in the contract that some speculate played a part in it being voted out.

- At no point has the company ever suggested FAs that were let go yesterday won't be welcome back. In fact, in a statement yesterday they explicitly stated that the hope of the company was all FAs that were interested would be re-hired, whether that be through FFÍ or a different union.

- This move is indeed unprecedented in the Icelandic marketplace and other union representatives have understandably raised their voices at this. This will probably go to the courts where the FFÍ union's right to exclusivity will be tested.

This is all taken from news reporting in the Icelandic media.

Kind regards,
Sveinn
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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Revelation
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:13 pm

Toinou wrote:
The decision to fire all flight attendants comes after members of Icelandair’s flight attendant union voted against a collective bargaining agreement about a year ago.

According to this sentence of linked article in OP, the agreement was rejected long before this crisis started. So it seems a bit difficult to accuse Icelandair's FAs not to take into account the current situation. From what I get, this is just an argument trying to sell some PR about this decision.

Good point, I did miss that detail.

EDIT: The update above from SRQKEF is also relevant.

MIflyer12 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Sure it stinks from a labor point of view to get no raises and have to work more hours, but if you really feel that way you have to accept the consequences of refusing the offer.

You earlier raised the question, Where does a company get to refuse to negotiate with its appointed bargainer? Not in the U.S. (Not in Germany, Belgium or Switzerland, either, but my understanding of relevant national law there is weaker.) AA can't terminate all its pilots and say it wants a different group of pilots with different work rules.

Well, we do have the "lockout" where management uses non-union management employees or "scab" non-union employees to do the work. No idea what the laws of Iceland allow.

The lead article also says:

In response to Icelandair’s decision to fire all flight attendants, the head of the Icelandic Confederation of Labour said that they are “exploring every avenue to prevent this. This is unbelievably shameless on Icelandair’s part. It shows disrespect for the workers and disrespect for the rules in place regarding the Icelandic labour market and those in the midst of negotiations.”

Unfortunately it does not say what avenues exist.

EDIT: The update above from SRQKEF is relevant. It seems the courts will be involved.

TFA also says:

Meanwhile it’s said that Icelandair management had been considering starting to negotiate with another union, which wasn’t well received.

So Fi isn't willing to publicly say they will negotiate with another union, that's just (informed?) media speculation at this point.

SRQKEF wrote:
Kind regards,
Sveinn

Thanks for the update, Sveinn!
Last edited by Revelation on Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Miamiairport
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:04 pm

No at least in my experience they are a group of polished individuals but by no means 100% polished. A few aren't much better in manners than the paxs. Still, most when called upon for a rare emergency step up to the plate. I was flying to LAX a few month ago and as we passed MSY the women seated behind suddenly rushed to the lav. When she came out she was having heart failure and got sick all over the F FA. The FAs along with some help from pax with medical training worked on the women until we landed at IAH. Because we were landing with extra fuel the FAs that were not helping to revive the pax were doing the safety chant for paxs to be ready for a very hard and potentially dangerous impact. No fastfood worker would have been able to handle that crisis.

Given what airline management has thrown on them over the past 2 decades I wonder how they keep their sanity. It's the FAs (and GAs) that take the brunt of abuse that comes from tightly packed planes, constant delays, people lugging oversized bags onto the a/c to avoid paying to check a bag, now no beverage service with certain airlines, and of course more and more people that act like animals.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:08 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Icelandair must have a massive surplus of pilots. For a 757 they will need at least 4 FAs maybe more depending on Iceland's regulations. Typically, they would only need 2 pilots for the 757. They need at least 5 FAs for the 767 and 757-300. Only 2 pilots usually needed for those. Pilot groups are usually much smaller than flight attendant.

If Icelandair is using line pilots as FAs, I wonder regulatory wise how time working as an FA would count against their monthly and yearly pilot duty regulations if Icelandair wanted to also use them as pilots as needed.


I wonder if they'll be rotated through the flight deck on a regular basis, say every 6th flight or so. That way they won't time out on certifications etc.. I can't imagine this is very popular with the pilots though. There's also a chance it will detoriate their mental "sharpness" that's required in the flight deck. I also wonder what looks best on a CV, being fired as a pilot and finding different employment, or working as a pilot/flight attendant in a rotating schedule. That being said, there are tens of thousands of pilots who have to find other work these days, so any employer will look at that and not find it strange considering what happened.

I also wonder what pay they'll retain. If they'll be paid as flight attendants or as pilots.
 
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Revelation
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:01 pm

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Icelandair must have a massive surplus of pilots. For a 757 they will need at least 4 FAs maybe more depending on Iceland's regulations. Typically, they would only need 2 pilots for the 757. They need at least 5 FAs for the 767 and 757-300. Only 2 pilots usually needed for those. Pilot groups are usually much smaller than flight attendant.

Right, but they're only operating 10 departures a day so...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Antarius
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:38 pm

DL752 wrote:
I'm with you! Flight Attendant training was more rigorous than college.
Drills especially like you explain.
Commanding one thing, preparing for the next, and operating another all at once without confusion and learning different procedures on 19 aircraft.

4 out of 6 weeks of training is emergency, medical, defense, and operations of aircraft.
One to three days for service standards.

Every member on the aircraft works hard and I respect all positions.
So, it doesn't feel nice to be "downplayed" especially when safety and saving hundreds of lives is a shared goal.

DL752 :airplane:


With all due respect, anything that can be taught in 4-6 weeks is not rocket science.

It isn't a function of "downplaying" or not respecting positions, just a realistic assessment of the labor market. Some positions take a lot more lead time to train. For example, hiring a replacement stock clerk in a grocery store is very easy. Hiring a data scientist is not.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
akb88
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:43 pm

FFI and Icelandair have apparently been called to meet with the State Conciliation and Mediation Officer.
 
Pi7472000
Posts: 217
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:46 pm

Disgusting!! Hopefully the pilots stand against this plan and refuse to do this!! I always thought Iceland was a progressive place when it came to working conditions!
 
multimark
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Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:53 pm

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:47 pm

cirrusdragoon wrote:
I am surprised the labour laws in Iceland would allow for this? In Canada this would not go forth it would be deemed as unfair bargaining. Wow.


Absolutely. It is shocking a supposedly advanced liberal democracy would allow such behaviour. Is there no such thing as Binding Arbitration in Iceland?
 
multimark
Posts: 472
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:55 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
No at least in my experience they are a group of polished individuals but by no means 100% polished. A few aren't much better in manners than the paxs. Still, most when called upon for a rare emergency step up to the plate. I was flying to LAX a few month ago and as we passed MSY the women seated behind suddenly rushed to the lav. When she came out she was having heart failure and got sick all over the F FA. The FAs along with some help from pax with medical training worked on the women until we landed at IAH. Because we were landing with extra fuel the FAs that were not helping to revive the pax were doing the safety chant for paxs to be ready for a very hard and potentially dangerous impact. No fastfood worker would have been able to handle that crisis.

Given what airline management has thrown on them over the past 2 decades I wonder how they keep their sanity. It's the FAs (and GAs) that take the brunt of abuse that comes from tightly packed planes, constant delays, people lugging oversized bags onto the a/c to avoid paying to check a bag, now no beverage service with certain airlines, and of course more and more people that act like animals.


And yet a really good FA can earn a lifelong customer or glowing online review, whereas a really good pilot is just expected.
 
ASFlyer
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:09 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
In the U.S. pilots are trained on cabin door operation and emergency evacuation. The safety briefing is the only thing not trained.


This may be airline specific but I can tell you Alaska pilots are not trained on evac procedures. They are trained how to open and close the door but not how to evacuate 150+ people in 90 seconds or less. They aren't trained how to use the AED. They aren't trained in CPR. They aren't trained in a multitude of other things the FA's are trained for - though they are trained in the most basic stuff.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:25 pm

Thanks for your input SRQKEF, and understand your reasons to keep out.
All the best.
 
Dominion301
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:26 pm

737max8 wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
Wouldn't pilots need to go through some kind of training first for FA duties? I guess it's much easier to get rid of FAs instead of pilots.


Yeah, probably a few hours or days for basic FA duties, compared to the time it takes to go from nothing to 757 airline pilot...


A few hours to become an F/A, lol! You should see my 300 page Transport Canada-approved F/A manual. Try learning that in a few hours or even days. At my airline, you had to achieve a 90% pass rate on all tests and you were only allowed 1 do-over over the entire training period - fail a 2nd and you're out.

lightsaber wrote:
Well, that is one way to retain pilots.
In flight testing, I was trained in f/a evacuation duties. It didn't take that long.

When I look at what training a pilot has and what training a F/A requires, it looks like only a day or two of training is required:

https://airlinecareer.com/expect-flight ... -training/

This is a cold move. But this is preserving skilled, hard to replace labor, at the cost of semi-skilled labor.


Lightsaber


It's more like 4 weeks of intensive training...even more so at an airline with multiple aircraft types like at the airline I became an F/A at where you had to learn 4 completely different aircraft types, let alone all the combi configurations of each type. Sure anyone can learn how to open the L1 door or overwing exits in an hour or two, but that's a small part of F/A training.
 
Judge1310
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:50 pm

This forum never ceases to amaze how, over and over again, there are folks on here pontificating about things they know very little to nothing of, yet try to pass it off as "fact". Yet, as always, the actual professionals here, with factual information, are constantly drowned out by online armchair airline CEOs, AQP SMEs, Network Planners, Rev Mgmnt, etc...
 
MIflyer12
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:43 am

Antarius wrote:
With all due respect, anything that can be taught in 4-6 weeks is not rocket science.

It isn't a function of "downplaying" or not respecting positions, just a realistic assessment of the labor market. Some positions take a lot more lead time to train. For example, hiring a replacement stock clerk in a grocery store is very easy. Hiring a data scientist is not.


You're going to get some hate mail with that one.

If someone would care to point out the minimum requirements in Icelandic law vs. FI's requirements that would be helpful. It would be interesting to see minimum requirements in the U.S. vs. Iceland to see if the difference is meaningful.

Upthread I posted minimum U.S. FAA requirements: 10 days. Historically DL/AA/UA have not required (REQUIRED) post-secondary education. No college time. No college degree. A high school diploma will do it - even a GED. You want people to be gracious. You want people with a service ethic. Those are characteristics for which you hire, not train.
 
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DL752
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:30 am

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:29 am

Antarius wrote:
DL752 wrote:
I'm with you! Flight Attendant training was more rigorous than college.
Drills especially like you explain.
Commanding one thing, preparing for the next, and operating another all at once without confusion and learning different procedures on 19 aircraft.

4 out of 6 weeks of training is emergency, medical, defense, and operations of aircraft.
One to three days for service standards.

Every member on the aircraft works hard and I respect all positions.
So, it doesn't feel nice to be "downplayed" especially when safety and saving hundreds of lives is a shared goal.

DL752 :airplane:


With all due respect, anything that can be taught in 4-6 weeks is not rocket science.

It isn't a function of "downplaying" or not respecting positions, just a realistic assessment of the labor market. Some positions take a lot more lead time to train. For example, hiring a replacement stock clerk in a grocery store is very easy. Hiring a data scientist is not.


Thank you for your explanation.

Sometimes it seems like the position can be overlooked. Like both positions, specific and unique skills are required which can't always be taught like above posters stated or replaced with anyone or in this case filled with a displaced worker who is used to a totally different environment. I know both ends respect one another and I think the two work quite harmoniously together so I hope they can work things out at the airline.

I do understand to be a Pilot, as I would someday like to be and have members in my family who are, you must be highly capable of complex tasks and sequences so I do believe in their ability to shift roles. I do wonder if it will cloud concentration or agility in the flight deck.. having two highly specified duties.

DL752 :airplane:

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