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MIflyer12
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:43 am

Antarius wrote:
With all due respect, anything that can be taught in 4-6 weeks is not rocket science.

It isn't a function of "downplaying" or not respecting positions, just a realistic assessment of the labor market. Some positions take a lot more lead time to train. For example, hiring a replacement stock clerk in a grocery store is very easy. Hiring a data scientist is not.


You're going to get some hate mail with that one.

If someone would care to point out the minimum requirements in Icelandic law vs. FI's requirements that would be helpful. It would be interesting to see minimum requirements in the U.S. vs. Iceland to see if the difference is meaningful.

Upthread I posted minimum U.S. FAA requirements: 10 days. Historically DL/AA/UA have not required (REQUIRED) post-secondary education. No college time. No college degree. A high school diploma will do it - even a GED. You want people to be gracious. You want people with a service ethic. Those are characteristics for which you hire, not train.
 
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DL752
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:29 am

Antarius wrote:
DL752 wrote:
I'm with you! Flight Attendant training was more rigorous than college.
Drills especially like you explain.
Commanding one thing, preparing for the next, and operating another all at once without confusion and learning different procedures on 19 aircraft.

4 out of 6 weeks of training is emergency, medical, defense, and operations of aircraft.
One to three days for service standards.

Every member on the aircraft works hard and I respect all positions.
So, it doesn't feel nice to be "downplayed" especially when safety and saving hundreds of lives is a shared goal.

DL752 :airplane:


With all due respect, anything that can be taught in 4-6 weeks is not rocket science.

It isn't a function of "downplaying" or not respecting positions, just a realistic assessment of the labor market. Some positions take a lot more lead time to train. For example, hiring a replacement stock clerk in a grocery store is very easy. Hiring a data scientist is not.


Thank you for your explanation.

Sometimes it seems like the position can be overlooked. Like both positions, specific and unique skills are required which can't always be taught like above posters stated or replaced with anyone or in this case filled with a displaced worker who is used to a totally different environment. I know both ends respect one another and I think the two work quite harmoniously together so I hope they can work things out at the airline.

I do understand to be a Pilot, as I would someday like to be and have members in my family who are, you must be highly capable of complex tasks and sequences so I do believe in their ability to shift roles. I do wonder if it will cloud concentration or agility in the flight deck.. having two highly specified duties.

DL752 :airplane:
 
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DL752
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:37 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
With all due respect, anything that can be taught in 4-6 weeks is not rocket science.

It isn't a function of "downplaying" or not respecting positions, just a realistic assessment of the labor market. Some positions take a lot more lead time to train. For example, hiring a replacement stock clerk in a grocery store is very easy. Hiring a data scientist is not.


You're going to get some hate mail with that one.

If someone would care to point out the minimum requirements in Icelandic law vs. FI's requirements that would be helpful. It would be interesting to see minimum requirements in the U.S. vs. Iceland to see if the difference is meaningful.

Upthread I posted minimum U.S. FAA requirements: 10 days. Historically DL/AA/UA have not required (REQUIRED) post-secondary education. No college time. No college degree. A high school diploma will do it - even a GED. You want people to be gracious. You want people with a service ethic. Those are characteristics for which you hire, not train.


Very true, I appreciate the words.
I recently heard about the changes at my airline. No resume required.

You are proven on:

All based on communication, crisis skills, performance under stress, working with others, and following procedures while being highly empathetic yet efficient and able to take a firm lead.

And passengers notice. Which makes us feel special.

Have a nice night,

DL752 :airplane:
 
eaa3
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:17 am

A new deal between the union and Icelandair has been signed tonight. Looks like taking the nuclear option worked for Icelandair. Assuming the union members approve the signed deal in a general vote on the 27th, they will keep their jobs.

It begs the question: were they truly ever planning for this whole thing to happen i.e. the pilots serving as cabin attendants, or was it all a ploy to get the flight attendants to accept their deal?
Last edited by eaa3 on Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
IPFreely
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:25 am

Judge1310 wrote:
This forum never ceases to amaze how, over and over again, there are folks on here pontificating about things they know very little to nothing of, yet try to pass it off as "fact". Yet, as always, the actual professionals here, with factual information, are constantly drowned out by online armchair airline CEOs, AQP SMEs, Network Planners, Rev Mgmnt, etc...


While professional FA's are here with "factual information" that it's impossible for pilots to replace FA's, we're having this discussion because Bogi Nils Bogason says it is possible. And he's not an armchair airline CEO, he's a real airline CEO.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:31 am

JetBuddy wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
Icelandair must have a massive surplus of pilots. For a 757 they will need at least 4 FAs maybe more depending on Iceland's regulations. Typically, they would only need 2 pilots for the 757. They need at least 5 FAs for the 767 and 757-300. Only 2 pilots usually needed for those. Pilot groups are usually much smaller than flight attendant.

If Icelandair is using line pilots as FAs, I wonder regulatory wise how time working as an FA would count against their monthly and yearly pilot duty regulations if Icelandair wanted to also use them as pilots as needed.


I wonder if they'll be rotated through the flight deck on a regular basis, say every 6th flight or so. That way they won't time out on certifications etc.. I can't imagine this is very popular with the pilots though. There's also a chance it will detoriate their mental "sharpness" that's required in the flight deck. I also wonder what looks best on a CV, being fired as a pilot and finding different employment, or working as a pilot/flight attendant in a rotating schedule. That being said, there are tens of thousands of pilots who have to find other work these days, so any employer will look at that and not find it strange considering what happened.

I also wonder what pay they'll retain. If they'll be paid as flight attendants or as pilots.


I hope it is as pilots, it should be if they are required to keep them on. Actually quite smart as it keeps pilots certified (if they rotate thru the cockpit) and ready when traffic picks back up.

The FA contract is likely to be expired and with no new contract getting approved, it is likely there is no current contract to enforce labor law wise. So it falls to the laws of the country(s) where the airline has operations. Usually a higher skill trade that is unionized can fill union positions, in particular if the wages paid exceed the scale of the position.

Flight attendants are a skilled position, pilots even more so. But yes specific training required to serve needs to be satisfied. These pilots are on payroll anyway, the company probably has the right for them to do any job its sees fit. So they go to training for a while.

It might be very good for pilots to do this FA work, it is always brought up in Business School how important for managers to be able to do every job in the company. Dealing with passengers may improve their people skills, same with opening the doors, evac training, etc.

Iceland is mostly Intl flights, likely running around 10% of flights, possibly 20%. That means 80% of pilots and FA are not flying. So for every 2 needed in the cockpit, there are 8 that are not. Getting 4 in as FA's means 6 are employed, only 4 are sitting home.
 
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SRQKEF
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:34 am

eaa3 wrote:
A new deal between the union and Icelandair has been signed tonight. Looks like taking the nuclear option worked for Icelandair. Assuming the union members approve the signed deal in a general vote on the 27th, they will keep their jobs.

It begs the question: were they truly ever planning for this whole thing to happen i.e. the pilots serving as cabin attendants, or was it all a ploy to get the flight attendants to accept their deal?


Great news, I hope this puts an end to this ugly situation and the airline can go forward as one single unity towards the tough challenges ahead.

I suggest that the name of the thread be updated to reflect the new developments.
Nothing compares to taking off in an empty 757 with full thrust!
 
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lightsaber
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:07 am

eaa3 wrote:
A new deal between the union and Icelandair has been signed tonight. Looks like taking the nuclear option worked for Icelandair. Assuming the union members approve the signed deal in a general vote on the 27th, they will keep their jobs.

It begs the question: were they truly ever planning for this whole thing to happen i.e. the pilots serving as cabin attendants, or was it all a ploy to get the flight attendants to accept their deal?

A deal is great news. I do not expect the hard feelings to just go away.
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arcticcruiser
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:52 am

lightsaber wrote:
eaa3 wrote:
A new deal between the union and Icelandair has been signed tonight. Looks like taking the nuclear option worked for Icelandair. Assuming the union members approve the signed deal in a general vote on the 27th, they will keep their jobs.

It begs the question: were they truly ever planning for this whole thing to happen i.e. the pilots serving as cabin attendants, or was it all a ploy to get the flight attendants to accept their deal?

A deal is great news. I do not expect the hard feelings to just go away.


Well perhaps the FAs were given a much needed wake up call.
 
tcas69
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:11 am

There is a precedent:
in 1993 Austrian flightcrew west on strike, subsidiary AAS ( regional F50 with mainline FAs) used pilots to perform basic emergency duties of FAs to perform flights
 
Andy33
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:37 am

And a more recent and larger scale precedent. During strikes by British Airways cabin crew belonging to branches of the Unite union, staff from other parts of the business acted as cabin crew, that included pilots, ground staff, and office staff.. All were volunteers. They were all trained to current cabin crew standards. To be fair, a fair number of the cabin crew never went on strike at all, and others returned to work part way through the dispute, so there was normally a mixture of full-time crew members and volunteers on each flight.
 
32andBelow
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:53 am

If you had the pilot do safety function couldn’t you hire a lose wage person to do service?
 
APYu
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:03 am

When BA needed to train its pilots, cleaners and engineers on how to be an FA during the strikes a few years back, the training required certainly took days but not weeks.
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BA777FO
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:51 am

APYu wrote:
When BA needed to train its pilots, cleaners and engineers on how to be an FA during the strikes a few years back, the training required certainly took days but not weeks.


My understanding is that for pilots it was a 3 day course.
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:17 am

Andy33 wrote:
And a more recent and larger scale precedent. During strikes by British Airways cabin crew belonging to branches of the Unite union, staff from other parts of the business acted as cabin crew, that included pilots, ground staff, and office staff.. All were volunteers. They were all trained to current cabin crew standards. [b]To be fair, a fair number of the cabin crew never went on strike at all, and others returned to work part way through the dispute, so there was normally a mixture of full-time crew members and volunteers on each flight.[/b]

That must have been great for CRM...
 
BA777FO
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:25 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
Andy33 wrote:
And a more recent and larger scale precedent. During strikes by British Airways cabin crew belonging to branches of the Unite union, staff from other parts of the business acted as cabin crew, that included pilots, ground staff, and office staff.. All were volunteers. They were all trained to current cabin crew standards. [b]To be fair, a fair number of the cabin crew never went on strike at all, and others returned to work part way through the dispute, so there was normally a mixture of full-time crew members and volunteers on each flight.[/b]

That must have been great for CRM...


It wasn't, but the reasons for the strike, from what I remember were crazy - it meant the CSDs taking up a working position and crew numbers onboard aircraft were aligned to reflect those already agreed at LGW. That was pretty much it in a nutshell. Because of the strike Mixed Fleet was born and Eurofleet and Worldwide had no more promotion opportunities and lost a lot of plum trips. BA was also very close at the time to bankruptcy. They weren't even employing the abhorent fire/rehire practices they're doing now.

Digressed from Icelandair though...
 
F9Animal
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:27 am

eaa3 wrote:
A new deal between the union and Icelandair has been signed tonight. Looks like taking the nuclear option worked for Icelandair. Assuming the union members approve the signed deal in a general vote on the 27th, they will keep their jobs.

It begs the question: were they truly ever planning for this whole thing to happen i.e. the pilots serving as cabin attendants, or was it all a ploy to get the flight attendants to accept their deal?


I would not be surprised if they were ready to go through with their threat. The company holds the upper hand in this environment. I do feel bad for the work group though. I'm sure they gave away alot, and trying to get that back in good times is next to impossible.

I have always been a staunch supporter of airline workers. Seeing anyone get laid off or lose their job is crushing. God knows I have been through it one too many times in my life. The feeling is crushing, scary, and depressing. Especially if you really love the job you do.
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airhansa
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:14 pm

Pilots have taken on FA duties in many short haul "city hopper" flights in Europe so it's nothing new. I raised the possibility of automation allowing the FO to take on more cabin duties and be there in case of emergencies while the automation flies the plane and the pilot is in the cockpit for unusual situations that the computer messes up.
 
Redd
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:32 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Wow, this is insane. What happens it comes time to get real FAs?



They'll probably just hire some....
 
usflyer msp
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:32 pm

SRQKEF wrote:
eaa3 wrote:
A new deal between the union and Icelandair has been signed tonight. Looks like taking the nuclear option worked for Icelandair. Assuming the union members approve the signed deal in a general vote on the 27th, they will keep their jobs.

It begs the question: were they truly ever planning for this whole thing to happen i.e. the pilots serving as cabin attendants, or was it all a ploy to get the flight attendants to accept their deal?


Great news, I hope this puts an end to this ugly situation and the airline can go forward as one single unity towards the tough challenges ahead.

I suggest that the name of the thread be updated to reflect the new developments.


Just out of curiosity, how are the relations between FI pilots and FI cabin crew right now? I can imagine it is going to be a bit frosty on their layovers going forward.
 
eaa3
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:33 pm

According to Icelandair, they had started training pilots over the weekend. Apparently, they needed about 1-2 days of additional training above pilot training.
 
32andBelow
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:00 pm

airhansa wrote:
Pilots have taken on FA duties in many short haul "city hopper" flights in Europe so it's nothing new. I raised the possibility of automation allowing the FO to take on more cabin duties and be there in case of emergencies while the automation flies the plane and the pilot is in the cockpit for unusual situations that the computer messes up.

Huh. How does that even makes sense? The FO does as much flying as the captain over the course of a day.
 
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Revelation
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:03 pm

https://icelandmonitor.mbl.is/news/news ... ck_a_deal/ says:

A statement from Icelandair says that the agreement will allow the airline to better streamline its operations without cutting the pay of flight attendants. Mbl.is reports that the new agreement is almost identical to the one that FFI members refused to accept earlier this month but with changes made to a clause that concerns an extra day off for older members of the cabin crew as well as a clause that stipulates a so-called “six day rule”.

So I presume work hours will go up from 650 to 800 and no raise. I also presume this agreement will be approved. If not, I have no doubts management will continue down the path of using pilots for emergency cabin duties.

lightsaber wrote:
eaa3 wrote:
A new deal between the union and Icelandair has been signed tonight. Looks like taking the nuclear option worked for Icelandair. Assuming the union members approve the signed deal in a general vote on the 27th, they will keep their jobs.

It begs the question: were they truly ever planning for this whole thing to happen i.e. the pilots serving as cabin attendants, or was it all a ploy to get the flight attendants to accept their deal?

A deal is great news. I do not expect the hard feelings to just go away.

And I do not expect the management pressure to just go away. They know they are leaving money on the table.
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MetsNomad
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:33 pm

It looks like it's not actually happening. The airline and the flight attendants union have seemingly come to an agreement.

https://onemileatatime.com/icelandair-w ... ttendants/
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airhansa
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:09 pm

32andBelow wrote:
airhansa wrote:
Pilots have taken on FA duties in many short haul "city hopper" flights in Europe so it's nothing new. I raised the possibility of automation allowing the FO to take on more cabin duties and be there in case of emergencies while the automation flies the plane and the pilot is in the cockpit for unusual situations that the computer messes up.

Huh. How does that even makes sense? The FO does as much flying as the captain over the course of a day.


Automation. The plane would be flown entirely by autopilot from runway to runway, the pilot would be there only to deal with unusual circumstances. The FO would be in the cabin and called up only in emergencies - the duties in the cabin would be minimal and about ensuring safety (make sure blinds are down etc...).

It's already quite common to have regional flights performed without a FA. I'm not talking about serving drinks and duty free, but bare minimal services such as dealing with technical malfunctions and safety etc...

A legacy airline could always provide first class and business class passengers with a flight attendant.
 
toltommy
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:28 pm

This is really no different than any other labor negotiation, with one difference:

The company and union negotiated an agreement. Both sides thought it was the best they were going to get.

The union submitted it to the membership. The membership rejected it. Nobody here has posted the TA, so we don’t know why. But they rejected it.

The company and union must’ve been free at that point to engage in self-help. The company could replace the flight attendants, and the union could likely strike.

The company likely looked at the rejected TA and based on current conditions decided any attempt to further negotiate would result in a more expensive contract. So they engaged in self-help by terminating the current FAs. The FAs were caught off guard, but it all sounds legal.

They’ve got furloughed pilots that are likely drawing minimum pay for a period of time, based upon their contract. Those pilots have the minimum training required, so the company is putting them to work in a different role temporarily.

The difference I noted above is a big one. The FI pilots appear to have accepted the work. I can’t imagine a similar situation in the US where pilots would agree to what would be called “scab work” here.
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:47 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
eaa3 wrote:
A new deal between the union and Icelandair has been signed tonight. Looks like taking the nuclear option worked for Icelandair. Assuming the union members approve the signed deal in a general vote on the 27th, they will keep their jobs.

It begs the question: were they truly ever planning for this whole thing to happen i.e. the pilots serving as cabin attendants, or was it all a ploy to get the flight attendants to accept their deal?

A deal is great news. I do not expect the hard feelings to just go away.


Well perhaps the FAs were given a much needed wake up call.


Are you serious!?!?!?!? I would love to see some of these pilots have to interact with customers, serve drinks, and deal with customer service issues. Just because you can fly a plane, does not give you the skill set to work with customers! Sounds like militants are running this airline. I stand with the FAs only of this airline!
 
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:34 pm

32andBelow wrote:
If you had the pilot do safety function couldn’t you hire a lose wage person to do service?


All I know is if there was an inflight emergency I wouldn't want a pilot in the back some where who can't get to the cockpit in time because his company asked him to do double duty. There should NEVER be only one person in the cockpit EVER.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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klm617
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:36 pm

Pi7472000 wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
A deal is great news. I do not expect the hard feelings to just go away.


Well perhaps the FAs were given a much needed wake up call.


Are you serious!?!?!?!? I would love to see some of these pilots have to interact with customers, serve drinks, and deal with customer service issues. Just because you can fly a plane, does not give you the skill set to work with customers! Sounds like militants are running this airline. I stand with the FAs only of this airline!


This is the mentality the airline management want's to bring forth. Once they have enough people programmed to think in this mindset they can get away with eliminating that position and saving money with little or no resistance.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
eaa3
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:37 pm

klm617 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
If you had the pilot do safety function couldn’t you hire a lose wage person to do service?


All I know is if there was an inflight emergency I wouldn't want a pilot in the back some where who can't get to the cockpit in time because his company asked him to do double duty. There should NEVER be only one person in the cockpit EVER.


The plan was to have 2 pilots in command + 4 pilots in the cabin as crew. A total of 6 pilots.
 
Judge1310
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:58 pm

IPFreely wrote:
Judge1310 wrote:
This forum never ceases to amaze how, over and over again, there are folks on here pontificating about things they know very little to nothing of, yet try to pass it off as "fact". Yet, as always, the actual professionals here, with factual information, are constantly drowned out by online armchair airline CEOs, AQP SMEs, Network Planners, Rev Mgmnt, etc...


While professional FA's are here with "factual information" that it's impossible for pilots to replace FA's, we're having this discussion because Bogi Nils Bogason says it is possible. And he's not an armchair airline CEO, he's a real airline CEO.


Was a chord within you struck...? If you read and understood my post, you would have clearly seen where I included other aviation work groups, not just the cabin crew. :roll:
 
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:16 pm

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gen2stew
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:57 pm

I think it was more likely that the pilots would not work in the cabin. I would assume that there is some sort of scope or language in the pilot contract that states they will not clean, fuel, or load airplanes etc.
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FGITD
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:19 am

What exactly are the roles or scenarios that an FA could handle well, but Pilot in that same role could not?

Genuine curiosity
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:30 am

FGITD wrote:
What exactly are the roles or scenarios that an FA could handle well, but Pilot in that same role could not?

Genuine curiosity


Technically none. FAs are hired though, based on certain personality traits. At least they use to be. Like Herb use to say, "I don't hire people and make them friendly, I hire friendly people". Nobody cares how friendly any of the pilot hires are, so I suppose overall in a probably un measurably way, customer service would suffer.

It use to be very rigorous, but as relative pay and benefits have gone down, so have the standards. But that is a whole society thing. Old guard pilots will tell you how tiresome it is to babysit new FOs addicted to their phones and too proud to (after all 5 months on the job) great or say farewell to their passengers.
 
bigb
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:31 am

CRJ900 wrote:
I think managers at many other airlines are watching this case closely - I personally think many FAs will be out of a job this way at many airlines over the next months.


Will not happen in the US thank goodness.
 
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klm617
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
We all like to think we are important, but when push comes to shove we're all replaceable.


And that's the problem. If we give a good portion of our lives to something helping to to be where it is today than we should be considered important. This disposable mentality that we are trying to push out into the world as a new reality is rubbish. What is a person to do who might have worked for an airline for most of their lives suppose to do when they are chucked out onto the curb like last weeks garbage. The flight attendants must have some kind of talent to have retained employment with the airline for maybe 20+ years. We need to start appreciating the value of people more and what they contribute to the success of a company rather than just throwing them out when they get too expensive or too old. I used to be a big fan of Icelandair and what they were all about but not anymore.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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ssteve
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:37 pm

Revelation wrote:
We all like to think we are important, but when push comes to shove we're all replaceable.


Notorious senior manager to employee griping too much, "Think about a hand in a bucket of water... when you pull out your hand, is there a hole in the water? You're the hand."
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:16 pm

klm617 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We all like to think we are important, but when push comes to shove we're all replaceable.

And that's the problem. If we give a good portion of our lives to something helping to to be where it is today than we should be considered important. This disposable mentality that we are trying to push out into the world as a new reality is rubbish. What is a person to do who might have worked for an airline for most of their lives suppose to do when they are chucked out onto the curb like last weeks garbage. The flight attendants must have some kind of talent to have retained employment with the airline for maybe 20+ years. We need to start appreciating the value of people more and what they contribute to the success of a company rather than just throwing them out when they get too expensive or too old. I used to be a big fan of Icelandair and what they were all about but not anymore.

I wish this was different, but wishing doesn't make it so. It's not about what you did the last 20 years, it's about what you do the next 20 years. There will always be some older people kept around because they can offer wisdom and leadership, but only some. It's kind of hard for everyone to expect a 40+ year career in something that requires so much out of one's body, and a job that really isn't tremendously "knowledge based". It's pretty counter intuitive that it pays more as one loses more and more stamina.

ssteve wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We all like to think we are important, but when push comes to shove we're all replaceable.

Notorious senior manager to employee griping too much, "Think about a hand in a bucket of water... when you pull out your hand, is there a hole in the water? You're the hand."

I've heard similar stuff in my career. Once I got a chance to question our company's CEO about layoff of support staff, and he said he needed to keep the "knowledge workers" in place. He didn't seem to care that people who were being paid hundreds of thousands were wasting time doing things that could be done by people being paid tens of thousands, and yes, a culling of some of the "knowledge workers" would have been more productive overall.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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klm617
Posts: 4998
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:57 pm

Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We all like to think we are important, but when push comes to shove we're all replaceable.

And that's the problem. If we give a good portion of our lives to something helping to to be where it is today than we should be considered important. This disposable mentality that we are trying to push out into the world as a new reality is rubbish. What is a person to do who might have worked for an airline for most of their lives suppose to do when they are chucked out onto the curb like last weeks garbage. The flight attendants must have some kind of talent to have retained employment with the airline for maybe 20+ years. We need to start appreciating the value of people more and what they contribute to the success of a company rather than just throwing them out when they get too expensive or too old. I used to be a big fan of Icelandair and what they were all about but not anymore.

I wish this was different, but wishing doesn't make it so. It's not about what you did the last 20 years, it's about what you do the next 20 years. There will always be some older people kept around because they can offer wisdom and leadership, but only some. It's kind of hard for everyone to expect a 40+ year career in something that requires so much out of one's body, and a job that really isn't tremendously "knowledge based". It's pretty counter intuitive that it pays more as one loses more and more stamina.

ssteve wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We all like to think we are important, but when push comes to shove we're all replaceable.

Notorious senior manager to employee griping too much, "Think about a hand in a bucket of water... when you pull out your hand, is there a hole in the water? You're the hand."

I've heard similar stuff in my career. Once I got a chance to question our company's CEO about layoff of support staff, and he said he needed to keep the "knowledge workers" in place. He didn't seem to care that people who were being paid hundreds of thousands were wasting time doing things that could be done by people being paid tens of thousands, and yes, a culling of some of the "knowledge workers" would have been more productive overall.


Yes but by ignoring it we allow it to persist. We need to speak out about these things when they happen and not defend them as being the new norm. As long as the employee can meet the minimum requirements there shouldn't be an issue.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 3572
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:49 pm

tcas69 wrote:
There is a precedent:
in 1993 Austrian flightcrew west on strike, subsidiary AAS ( regional F50 with mainline FAs) used pilots to perform basic emergency duties of FAs to perform flights


Wasn't there a more recent example involving mainline OS and then-subsidiary VO? Because of a labor dispute, all of the OS planes (except for one B772) and crews were transferred to VO for 3 years.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 3053
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilots)

Mon Jul 20, 2020 8:39 pm

Wouldn't many of the reassigned pilots find themselves in a necaderous situation, as dealing with customers is not their skillset?
.......
 
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aeromoe
Posts: 1281
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Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:07 pm

airhansa wrote:
the duties in the cabin would be minimal and about ensuring safety (make sure blinds are down etc...).


How does making sure the blinds are down ensure safety? By blinds do you mean window shades / blinds? On many of the flights I've been on window shades are UP for takeoff and landing in the name of safety.

Just curious about the nature of your statement.
Since 60s: AA AC AS BA BD BF BN BR(85) BY B6 CO CZ(16) DG DL EA EI EN FI FL FT F9 HA HP ICX JI JQ J7 KE KL KS LH MC NW OC OO OZ(87) OZ(88) PA PI PN(97) PT QF QQ RM RO RV(99) RV(16) RW SK SM SQ S4 TI TS TW UA UK US UZ VS VX WA WN WS W7 XV YV YX(13) ZZ 9K
 
usa330300
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:29 pm

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:25 pm

FlyinRabbit88 wrote:
No way should a pilot group accept this... and should stand with the FA group. Just because management can’t find some middle ground with the FA union they decide to take the nuclear option.

Glad this would never fly among the US airlines. Definitely crazy times!!!


Quite the oppsoite. The FAs chose the nuclear option and this is the result.
 
luckyone
Posts: 3079
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilots)

Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:14 pm

jmc1975 wrote:
Wouldn't many of the reassigned pilots find themselves in a necaderous situation, as dealing with customers is not their skillset?

Possibly. But having flown Icelandair, their service isn't exactly going to win any awards. They hand a bottle of water to you and move on. Regardless, as many career flight attendants on here have stated over the years, their primary role, and the reason they're legally on the plane is for safety. If Icelandair feels it appropriate to staff their emergency safety crew members with pilots for a short while, you'll still get your water handed to you and they'll move on, legal requirements having been met. Obviously the Flight Attendant union pieced this together.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: FI Fires ALL FAs, Replaced By Pilots.

Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:15 pm

aeromoe wrote:
airhansa wrote:
the duties in the cabin would be minimal and about ensuring safety (make sure blinds are down etc...).


How does making sure the blinds are down ensure safety? By blinds do you mean window shades / blinds? On many of the flights I've been on window shades are UP for takeoff and landing in the name of safety.

Just curious about the nature of your statement.


Sorry I got it the wrong way round but you get what I mean. Automation flies the plane that the FO does the safety briefing, checks the belts etc... if needed and generally stays in the cabin unless called to the cockpit. There's no traditional FA service being performed by the FO, just minimal safety procedures (arming door...).
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Mon Jul 20, 2020 10:41 pm

Revelation wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We all like to think we are important, but when push comes to shove we're all replaceable.

And that's the problem. If we give a good portion of our lives to something helping to to be where it is today than we should be considered important. This disposable mentality that we are trying to push out into the world as a new reality is rubbish. What is a person to do who might have worked for an airline for most of their lives suppose to do when they are chucked out onto the curb like last weeks garbage. The flight attendants must have some kind of talent to have retained employment with the airline for maybe 20+ years. We need to start appreciating the value of people more and what they contribute to the success of a company rather than just throwing them out when they get too expensive or too old. I used to be a big fan of Icelandair and what they were all about but not anymore.

I wish this was different, but wishing doesn't make it so. It's not about what you did the last 20 years, it's about what you do the next 20 years. There will always be some older people kept around because they can offer wisdom and leadership, but only some. It's kind of hard for everyone to expect a 40+ year career in something that requires so much out of one's body, and a job that really isn't tremendously "knowledge based". It's pretty counter intuitive that it pays more as one loses more and more stamina.

ssteve wrote:
Revelation wrote:
We all like to think we are important, but when push comes to shove we're all replaceable.

Notorious senior manager to employee griping too much, "Think about a hand in a bucket of water... when you pull out your hand, is there a hole in the water? You're the hand."

I've heard similar stuff in my career. Once I got a chance to question our company's CEO about layoff of support staff, and he said he needed to keep the "knowledge workers" in place. He didn't seem to care that people who were being paid hundreds of thousands were wasting time doing things that could be done by people being paid tens of thousands, and yes, a culling of some of the "knowledge workers" would have been more productive overall.

My employer is suffering as the knowledge workers know the company has no loyalty and the company has been shocked at retirement or just losses in senior knowledge workers.

While the job market isn't what is was in January, we are still losing skilled people as too few gained detailed skills in the last downturn and people still retire.

I want everyone to be treated well. But some skills take a long time to build up. A pilot ATP takes many years.

I know I'm replaceable. That is why I'm mentoring interns and new hires. I know my rare skills are only needed every other year, so I find reasons. Anyone 40+ should be in a leadership role.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
FGITD
Posts: 955
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Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:31 pm

lightsaber wrote:
My employer is suffering as the knowledge workers know the company has no loyalty and the company has been shocked at retirement or just losses in senior knowledge workers.

While the job market isn't what is was in January, we are still losing skilled people as too few gained detailed skills in the last downturn and people still retire.

I want everyone to be treated well. But some skills take a long time to build up. A pilot ATP takes many years.

I know I'm replaceable. That is why I'm mentoring interns and new hires. I know my rare skills are only needed every other year, so I find reasons. Anyone 40+ should be in a leadership role.

Lightsaber


Too true. But like all stories, there’s the flip side. As a worker, you should look out for opportunities and not just hold on to the one company out of your own loyalty.

I do see some humor in some of the "Experienced" retirees though. When going through their day to day work we've found more than a few who either didn't do much, or did half as much as some of the newer people...in twice the time. But inevitably we'd have that one problem that last came up 25 years ago, and lo and behold, guess who'd have the answer...

That said, I think the idea that pilots couldn't replace FAs simply because of their customer service skills is a little ridiculous. Most teenagers start off in customer service roles and like it or not, most adapt to it. Yet the adult pilot who's options are either lose his career or learn customer service, can't?

I'd imagine most wouldn't like it, but if its smile and be polite vs be unemployed, I think they'd manage.
 
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Revelation
Posts: 24303
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Updated: FI signs new FA contract (after stating will fire all FA and replace with pilits)

Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:38 am

FGITD wrote:
Too true. But like all stories, there’s the flip side. As a worker, you should look out for opportunities and not just hold on to the one company out of your own loyalty.

I do see some humor in some of the "Experienced" retirees though. When going through their day to day work we've found more than a few who either didn't do much, or did half as much as some of the newer people...in twice the time. But inevitably we'd have that one problem that last came up 25 years ago, and lo and behold, guess who'd have the answer...

That said, I think the idea that pilots couldn't replace FAs simply because of their customer service skills is a little ridiculous. Most teenagers start off in customer service roles and like it or not, most adapt to it. Yet the adult pilot who's options are either lose his career or learn customer service, can't?

I'd imagine most wouldn't like it, but if its smile and be polite vs be unemployed, I think they'd manage.

Yes, loyalty is a two way street. You whip your dog and chances are he's not going to want to go for a walk with you. I hope for FI's sake they didn't go too far, but I can see why from their point of view they were driven to extremes. I'd like to think FI's actions will be seen more as threatening with a rolled up newspaper rather than a whipping, but I can imagine others will not see it that way.

In my case I do not fall into the 'over 40 must be in leadership' bucket. I just don't have the interest nor have developed the skills to lead others. I think of myself as a good mentor, but most want a quick answer rather than a complete answer or how to learn how to find the answer themselves. I do fall more into the complete less in more time category but that extra time includes (a) lots of time to be sure I have the work completely done rather than superficially done and haven't painted myself into a corner (ref: mcas) and (b) time to really understand the subject matter so I can come up with that once in N year answer when needed and (c) a recognition that many can't/won't do the kind of work I do, certainly not enough in the area I work in. This approach has worked fine for decades now. Managers know what work they should give to me and what they should give to others who have different traits. Managers like to think one size fits all, but it doesn't work that way, and the longer they insist it does, the more they will find themselves in trouble.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

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