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docmtl
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:04 pm

Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Mon Jul 20, 2020 1:58 pm

Hi, there

Electric Aviation Group in the UK has proposed a new design for a 70-seat regional quad-engine, high wing, twin-tail hybrid turboprop.

Range in the 800 nm, 1450 km.

https://www.flightglobal.com/farnboroug ... 70.article

I guess it was a matter of time before we'd see new turboprop designs popping up, we had Embraer stating they've been working on a new turboprop family for quite some time.

https://simpleflying.com/embraer-new-turboprop/

Is this fact or fiction in these times of pandemics and long term recession ?

Take care you all,

docmtl
 
AndoAv8R
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Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:29 pm

Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:21 pm

It seems like the battery/hybrid technology still isn't feasible in anything but a trainer/short hop commuter. with regular engine technology getting more advanced, the hybrid doesn't seems like a realistic option given the weight penalty for the batteries/extra maintenance needed/extra up front cost (just from my understanding of current hybrid systems current being built/being designed)
 
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chunhimlai
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Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:49 pm

Replace intercity train service?
 
VSMUT
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:08 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Replace intercity train service?


Nothing is replacing modern HSR or trains. It will be the other way round, even with electric aircraft. This is an alternative to serve smaller markets that won't justify HSR or can't see train service due to geographical challenges.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:24 pm

Interesting concept. Any advantages over cancelled Airbus E-Fan X project, which was jet-powered hybrid.
All posts are just opinions.
 
docmtl
Topic Author
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Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Mon Jul 20, 2020 3:40 pm

And if there's a ban on short-haul flights within Europe, then the turboprop market will take a major hit:

https://www.independent.co.uk/environme ... 93826.html

Some countries within the EU are already discussing higher taxes for airlines in order to offset their carbon footprint:

"Countries including the Netherlands and Spain are already exploring the option of using environmental taxes to make airlines pay for their pollution. At the moment, airline flights within Europe are covered by the EU’s emissions trading system (ETS), which is designed to incentivise lowering emissions.The system works by providing a finite number of “emissions allowances”, which caps the amount of emissions airlines can legally produce. Any unused allowances can then be traded between airlines. However, many of these emissions allowances or “carbon credits” are currently issued free of charge by the EU, and overall the prices of the credits have been lower than intended with a large surplus of allowances available for sale. Critics have said this undermines the core reason for the existence of the ETS. But last week a proposal by Poland to end free EU carbon allowances for airlines, which would force them to buy all the pollution permits they need, gathered momentum, with seven member states supporting such action."

uff...

docmtl
 
VSMUT
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Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:31 pm

docmtl wrote:
And if there's a ban on short-haul flights within Europe, then the turboprop market will take a major hit:

https://www.independent.co.uk/environme ... 93826.html

Some countries within the EU are already discussing higher taxes for airlines in order to offset their carbon footprint:

"Countries including the Netherlands and Spain are already exploring the option of using environmental taxes to make airlines pay for their pollution. At the moment, airline flights within Europe are covered by the EU’s emissions trading system (ETS), which is designed to incentivise lowering emissions.The system works by providing a finite number of “emissions allowances”, which caps the amount of emissions airlines can legally produce. Any unused allowances can then be traded between airlines. However, many of these emissions allowances or “carbon credits” are currently issued free of charge by the EU, and overall the prices of the credits have been lower than intended with a large surplus of allowances available for sale. Critics have said this undermines the core reason for the existence of the ETS. But last week a proposal by Poland to end free EU carbon allowances for airlines, which would force them to buy all the pollution permits they need, gathered momentum, with seven member states supporting such action."

uff...

docmtl


There won't be an outright ban. Aircraft are still needed to serve places where trains can't go, like islands or mountains. If anything, higher taxes and carbon taxation schemes will push airlines to replace regional jets with more efficient turboprops.
 
Dominion301
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Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:36 pm

docmtl wrote:
Hi, there

Electric Aviation Group in the UK has proposed a new design for a 70-seat regional quad-engine, high wing, twin-tail hybrid turboprop.

Range in the 800 nm, 1450 km.

https://www.flightglobal.com/farnboroug ... 70.article

I guess it was a matter of time before we'd see new turboprop designs popping up, we had Embraer stating they've been working on a new turboprop family for quite some time.

https://simpleflying.com/embraer-new-turboprop/

Is this fact or fiction in these times of pandemics and long term recession ?

Take care you all,

docmtl


Interesting concept as a potential transition aircraft.
 
2175301
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Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:24 am

At this point we may see a modern turbo-prop developed with more efficient engines. I doubt the electric hybrid.

The base problem is the likely $3-5 Billion needed to develop and certify a modern passenger aircraft in this size range; and who is going to fund it?

The next problem is developing and maintaining and adequate parts and service organization. That's likely another $1 Billion for a new entrant to that market, assuming that you sell enough aircraft that its long term parts and service contracts pay for maintaining the organization. This is where Sukhoi failed badly with the SSJ.

Have a great day,
 
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Aesma
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Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:04 am

Any "new aircraft" proposed by a company not currently building aircraft is to be taken with a full hand of salt.

When I first read "landing-gear-assisted take-off" I figured the journalist must have screwed up something, then I realized it must be electric engines in the landing gear to speed along the runway with less power sent to the wing engines, I guess it's possible, not sure it's efficient. It would also allow taxiing with wing engines shut down.

Poland wanting someone to pay more for carbon emissions is laughable, they love their coal and have refused to sign the Paris accord for this reason (another good reason to cut their EU founding).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
zuckie13
Posts: 304
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:23 pm

Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:32 pm

They have an idea, and some patents, but blasted this out to the media for some free advertising - because clearly they do not have the money to actually move forward with it right now, and probably did not find investors quickly on their own.

Best guess is they are more at a concept stage - with some high level design probably, but likely don't' have much actual engineering design done yet.
 
airhansa
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:18 pm

Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:45 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Replace intercity train service?


The market for these types of planes would be to connect the various islands around Great Britain to the mainland and continent, or to connect the far flung places of Scandinavia to the south and the continent. These are routes that generally cannot be served by trains.

But I don't really consider "proposals" to be much since there have been a lot of attempts at making electric planes.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:07 pm

Someone will be first, and it will happen quicker than most think. Odds are likely against this particular endeavor but we should wish them luck.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
MIflyer12
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Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Tue Jul 21, 2020 3:29 pm

airhansa wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Replace intercity train service?


The market for these types of planes would be to connect the various islands around Great Britain to the mainland and continent, or to connect the far flung places of Scandinavia to the south and the continent. These are routes that generally cannot be served by trains.

.


The size of those markets, and a dozen for New Zealand, or Indonesia, etc., doesn't begin to justify a $5 Billion investment.
 
GDB
Posts: 13762
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Prospective 70-seat Hybrid-Electric turboprop design

Sun Sep 20, 2020 5:03 pm

Two months on, some more details;
https://www.electricaviationgroup.com/electric-flight/

Now that's from the horse's mouth so to speak, however not so long ago the big major car companies were having a laugh at that weirdo and his silly Tesla cars, (as were 'big space' and same weirdo's silly rockets).

I have, more times than I can possibly count, defended air transport and it's environmental impact by pointing out that modern airliners are so much more efficient and therefore with less impact on the environment than previous generations of aircraft/engines.
But if I am honest, the exponential growth of air travel, partly though not totally driven by LCC's has more than negated those gains.
Plus the the fact fossil fuelled engines are reaching a plateau in how much more they can improve in this area, in the same way that top speeds of military aircraft plateaued 60 years ago, albeit that was in operational practicality and changes in requirements.

You will note in the link above that much is made of environmental requirements, that alone is a selling/investment opportunity, put more crudely, adapt or die.
They also mention an iconic aircraft (partly) made in the UK which many of you will know I was involved with in a previous life, amazing as it was, it fell foul of environmental requirements of 50 years ago, even without the fallout from the 1973/4 oil crisis.
Back then, the widebodies/high bypass engines were the 'disruptive' technologies.

Could this project happen? Yes, in the stated timelines? Maybe.
Should a UK government of any political stripe encourage investment in it?
Well it would make a nice change but they would have to reform the City Of London, via incentives away from casino capitalism to long term industrial investment.
Breaking the habit of a century.

In this months (first monthly) Flight Global, this story includes some snark from another UK electric aircraft project's CEO, in this case Faradair Aviation who is developing a 19 seater, about stealing ideas/claiming credit, on Linkendin FFS!
IMHO, government should encourage such butting of heads to cease, if either want assistance of any kind, work together, develop a family, start with the 19 seater, which seems logical technically as well as good marketing.
The family concept hasn't done Airbus any harm has it?
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... xford-home

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