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SGAviation
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Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:25 am

 
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GCT64
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:41 am

No one's asked yet: "Do you think it's a write off?"

Seriously, I hope no one was hurt and that it's just a loss of material things not any lives
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qf789
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:46 am

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Antaras
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:50 am

qf789 wrote:


Damn, that's a big fire.

(Traditionally, yes it is written-off)
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MoKa777
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:52 am

Gasp! That is serious!

Because someone has to say it: nah, that'll buff out...
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Chasensfo
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:00 am

WOW! Very curious to learn what started this, and hopefully nobody was in harms way.
 
jeffrey0032j
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:05 am

Probably DG related.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:21 am

Anyone remembers the B787 caught on fire in LHR few years back? I mention this is because the location of the fire is extremely similar, near the rear left door, on B787 it is L4 door galley. On this B777, it seems to be in a similar location.

Yes I am sure the B777 is a entirely different circumstances for the fire. But the similarity of the location of fire is very interesting and the B787 LHR incident comes to my mind as soon as I see this photo of B777.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:23 am

That’s a very different fire to the ET788 at LHR..... That 77F is toast....
 
LTEN11
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:31 am

chonetsao wrote:
Anyone remembers the B787 caught on fire in LHR few years back? I mention this is because the location of the fire is extremely similar, near the rear left door, on B787 it is L4 door galley. On this B777, it seems to be in a similar location.

Yes I am sure the B777 is a entirely different circumstances for the fire. But the similarity of the location of fire is very interesting and the B787 LHR incident comes to my mind as soon as I see this photo of B777.


That is cargo on fire, highly unlikely to have anything to do with an emergency locator beacon shorting out.

The only good thing here is that it happened on the ground and not in the air. Will probably end up being traced back to a dodgy shipment of batteries catching fire, at least this crew were lucky.
 
B787register
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:32 am

chonetsao wrote:
Anyone remembers the B787 caught on fire in LHR few years back? I mention this is because the location of the fire is extremely similar, near the rear left door, on B787 it is L4 door galley. On this B777, it seems to be in a similar location.

Yes I am sure the B777 is a entirely different circumstances for the fire. But the similarity of the location of fire is very interesting and the B787 LHR incident comes to my mind as soon as I see this photo of B777.

ET-AOP was the ELT which caught fire, I'm sure in this instance the Admins wont mind me linking to some info on that 787 incident - if they do please remove no problems are trying to be caused. http://www.b787register.co.uk/airframes/airframe.php?ln=0044
David C
 
FluidFlow
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:33 am

If they can extinguish the fire at least a lot of the expensive engine and avionics parts can still be salvaged and sold. Current market environment will reduce prices but at least its something.

Hopefully no one got hurt.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:40 am

LTEN11 wrote:
That is cargo on fire, highly unlikely to have anything to do with an emergency locator beacon shorting out.

The only good thing here is that it happened on the ground and not in the air. Will probably end up being traced back to a dodgy shipment of batteries catching fire, at least this crew were lucky.


Yes indeed! The set of crew is very lucky.

Incidentally the last major fire I can remember to an aircraft is the Air China A330 in PEK in loading. That is not long ago.
 
upintheair2019
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:04 am

The airline's statement, posted on their FB page:

Statement on Incident ET-ARH – Shanghai Pudong Airport, 22 July 2020
Ethiopian Airlines B777 freighter aircraft with registration number ET-ARH caught fire while loading cargo at Pudong Shanghai airport today, July 22, 2020. The aircraft was on a regular scheduled cargo service from Shanghai to Sao Paulo-Santiago via Addis Ababa. All ground staff and flying crew are safe.
Ethiopian has collaborated with all concerned authorities and contained the fire.
The cause of the incident is under investigation by the appropriate authorities.
 
AntonioMartin
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:11 am

The airline says per this: https://www.flightglobal.com/ethiopian- ... 23.article that it was on a Brussels-Shanghai-Sao Paulo-Santiago routing...thats a long routing on a flight that according to what they said didnt even touch Addis Ababa...
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:26 am

At least the cockpit equipment and engines can be salvaged and brought back on another ET frame for reuse. The landing gear could also be reused as well.
 
Clydenairways
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:17 am

chonetsao wrote:
Anyone remembers the B787 caught on fire in LHR few years back? I mention this is because the location of the fire is extremely similar, near the rear left door, on B787 it is L4 door galley. On this B777, it seems to be in a similar location.

Yes I am sure the B777 is a entirely different circumstances for the fire. But the similarity of the location of fire is very interesting and the B787 LHR incident comes to my mind as soon as I see this photo of B777.


This is much worse than the 787 and in the photo it's still burning. This will definitely be a write off.
 
SGAviation
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:30 am

Not that the powerplant has anything to do with it, but would this be the first time a GE90-powered aircraft will be written-off (if it does)?
 
Superboi
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:59 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
At least the cockpit equipment and engines can be salvaged and brought back on another ET frame for reuse. The landing gear could also be reused as well.


Doesn't this belong to the Insurer now?
 
AvroLanc
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:05 pm

Most importantly it happened on the ground. With no loss of life or injuries.
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:18 pm

Superboi wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
At least the cockpit equipment and engines can be salvaged and brought back on another ET frame for reuse. The landing gear could also be reused as well.


Doesn't this belong to the Insurer now?

Probably negotiated with insurer, i.e. ET keeps salvageable part in exchange for a lower insurance payout.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:15 pm

That's bad. 6 year old aircraft, first 77F hull loss. Fortunately nu human casualties apparently.
ET does have some bad luck losing aircraft, the 767 which was hijacked, the 737MAX of course. Wonder if they will source a replacement aircraft with Boeing or on the 2nd hand market.
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Clydenairways
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:26 pm

There is another video on that twitter feed and it appears the rear section has now separated from the rest of the airframe.

aemoreira1981 wrote:
At least the cockpit equipment and engines can be salvaged and brought back on another ET frame for reuse. The landing gear could also be reused as well.

There is another video showing thick black smoke billowing out of the cockpit windows, i dont think any avionics will be usable again.
 
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:32 pm

chonetsao wrote:
LTEN11 wrote:
That is cargo on fire, highly unlikely to have anything to do with an emergency locator beacon shorting out.

The only good thing here is that it happened on the ground and not in the air. Will probably end up being traced back to a dodgy shipment of batteries catching fire, at least this crew were lucky.


Yes indeed! The set of crew is very lucky.

Incidentally the last major fire I can remember to an aircraft is the Air China A330 in PEK in loading. That is not long ago.


The CA 330 have been written off
 
Clydenairways
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:44 pm

frigatebird wrote:
That's bad. 6 year old aircraft, first 77F hull loss. Fortunately nu human casualties apparently.
ET does have some bad luck losing aircraft, the 767 which was hijacked, the 737MAX of course. Wonder if they will source a replacement aircraft with Boeing or on the 2nd hand market.


They lost a 737NG and a 737-400 too.
 
B757Forever
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:58 pm

[quote="FluidFlow"] If they can extinguish the fire at least a lot of the expensive engine and avionics parts can still be salvaged and sold. Current market environment will reduce prices but at least its something.

Many air carriers will not purchase parts from an "incident" aircraft. At the carrier where I work, any part not bought new from the vendor must come with clean "back to birth" records. That means zero incidents, complete service records and a verifiable chain of possession since new. This is to reduce future liability in the event one of our aircraft was involved in an incident and there was litigation, none of the parts on the aircraft could be characterized as having a questionable background.
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ikolkyo
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:24 pm

Photo from the other side of the aircraft, really looks like something went ablaze on the inside and stretched nearly the whole cabin.

Image
https://twitter.com/AirCrashMayday/stat ... 37/photo/4
 
Austin787
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:30 pm

SGAviation wrote:
Not that the powerplant has anything to do with it, but would this be the first time a GE90-powered aircraft will be written-off (if it does)?

According to Aviation Safety, this would be the first write off of an aircraft with GE-90 engines. The site already lists this aircraft as Damaged Beyond Repair.

I'm interested in learning what was in the cargo hold. Wouldn't be surprising if there were lithium batteries.
 
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:36 pm

The biggest part of the fuselage that melted is near the vertical fin (probably ignition point?) and looking at the extension of the damages in the fuselage it seems to have happen near the final stage of the cargo loading and then the fire spread to other goods inside.... Plastic wrapping and cardboard would probably be in big quantities inside...
Last edited by AECM on Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sandyb123
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:46 pm

Austin787 wrote:
SGAviation wrote:
Not that the powerplant has anything to do with it, but would this be the first time a GE90-powered aircraft will be written-off (if it does)?

According to Aviation Safety, this would be the first write off of an aircraft with GE-90 engines. The site already lists this aircraft as Damaged Beyond Repair.

I'm interested in learning what was in the cargo hold. Wouldn't be surprising if there were lithium batteries.


Wasn't the EK 777 that crashed in Dubai a few years back GE90 powered?

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A320B737NGCapt
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:50 pm

sandyb123 wrote:
Austin787 wrote:
SGAviation wrote:
Not that the powerplant has anything to do with it, but would this be the first time a GE90-powered aircraft will be written-off (if it does)?

According to Aviation Safety, this would be the first write off of an aircraft with GE-90 engines. The site already lists this aircraft as Damaged Beyond Repair.

I'm interested in learning what was in the cargo hold. Wouldn't be surprising if there were lithium batteries.


Wasn't the EK 777 that crashed in Dubai a few years back GE90 powered?

Sandyb123


That was a 777-300, powered by RR Trent 800’s
Last edited by A320B737NGCapt on Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
airboeingbus
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:51 pm

How does the insurance work for airliners? If one is written off like this will the insurer replace the plane, or do airlines just use a liability only cover?
 
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:56 pm

airboeingbus wrote:
How does the insurance work for airliners? If one is written off like this will the insurer replace the plane, or do airlines just use a liability only cover?


The airframe owner will get the monies. Probably in the region of $120 million for a 5 year old frame.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:01 pm

airboeingbus wrote:
How does the insurance work for airliners? If one is written off like this will the insurer replace the plane, or do airlines just use a liability only cover?


The airline (or lessor) will get payment for the value of the aircraft minus deductible. It’s the airline’s (and/or lessor) choice whether they replace. Insurance companies typically don’t have contracts with manufacturers for replacement. This could get interesting based on who is at fault. If it was cargo loading equipment from a third party, they may be liable. If it was hazardous cargo, it could get held up in litigation for a while.
 
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SuseJ772
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:03 pm

LTEN11 wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
Anyone remembers the B787 caught on fire in LHR few years back? I mention this is because the location of the fire is extremely similar, near the rear left door, on B787 it is L4 door galley. On this B777, it seems to be in a similar location.

Yes I am sure the B777 is a entirely different circumstances for the fire. But the similarity of the location of fire is very interesting and the B787 LHR incident comes to my mind as soon as I see this photo of B777.


That is cargo on fire, highly unlikely to have anything to do with an emergency locator beacon shorting out.

The only good thing here is that it happened on the ground and not in the air. Will probably end up being traced back to a dodgy shipment of batteries catching fire, at least this crew were lucky.


I think you are right about the batteries. That in my opinion is the leading theory.
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T54A
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:13 pm

Is that a MEL or CDL dispatch?
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AYVN
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:38 pm

Was it incoming goods or outgoing that flamed?
 
TXL4ever
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:12 pm

T54A wrote:
Is that a MEL or CDL dispatch?

LOL...I‘d say MEL...

Someone surely put a „HOT-Transfer“-tag on a shipment....
 
DCA350
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:20 pm

Does the internal fire suppression system only work in flight?
 
uta999
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:30 pm

Well luckily every parcel containing a Lithium battery was correctly labelled as such. Otherwise there could have been a fire. Oh wait...!
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ILNFlyer
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:03 pm

Austin787 wrote:
[quote="SGAviation"
I'm interested in learning what was in the cargo hold. Wouldn't be surprising if there were lithium batteries.


Me too, and being loaded in China no less.
 
SkyLife
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:48 pm

DCA350 wrote:
Does the internal fire suppression system only work in flight?


On my jet the fire suppression must be manually selected by the pilots. We have two bottles, one quick and one slow to contain the cargo fire until we can hopefully get on the ground. I’d imagine most airliners have a pilot selected system so it doesn’t accidentally go off. Only automated one is the APU on my airplane with the airplane on the ground (WOW), thinking is the APU may catch fire while the airplane is unattended.

The suppression system is hardwired to the airplane battery and can suppress at pilot discretion even if the engine isn’t running.
 
Bealine251
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:24 pm

Thank goodness this happened on the ground. If it had been during a flight even though the fire suppression system may have been activated it could have ended in disaster.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:30 pm

For those who think they can check in a tablet, laptop, or cell phone, think again.
 
2175301
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:17 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
For those who think they can check in a tablet, laptop, or cell phone, think again.


My understanding of the USA TSA regs is that you can have a device with an internal lithium battery smaller than 160 watts in your checked in luggage.

Personally, I'd prefer that they would require said device to be in a special container designed to contain a battery fire. But, that is not what I understand the current regulations are. I checked the current rules on an airline luggage rules to verify this.

Have a great day,
 
migair54
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:28 pm

SkyLife wrote:
DCA350 wrote:
Does the internal fire suppression system only work in flight?


On my jet the fire suppression must be manually selected by the pilots. We have two bottles, one quick and one slow to contain the cargo fire until we can hopefully get on the ground. I’d imagine most airliners have a pilot selected system so it doesn’t accidentally go off. Only automated one is the APU on my airplane with the airplane on the ground (WOW), thinking is the APU may catch fire while the airplane is unattended.

The suppression system is hardwired to the airplane battery and can suppress at pilot discretion even if the engine isn’t running.


Same on the B777, however the fire suppression system of the main cargo deck has no bottles, it's just a controlled depressurization, so on ground is not available, only the lower cargo holds have bottles.

AYVN wrote:
Was it incoming goods or outgoing that flamed?

I'd say outgoing, the plane landed 4 hours before the incident.
 
787SIN
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:10 pm

airboeingbus wrote:
How does the insurance work for airliners? If one is written off like this will the insurer replace the plane, or do airlines just use a liability only cover?


Will be Insured to an agreed value, possibly high $100s as 777F is over $300 million new. Payment would be to the owner of the airframe so if leased it will be to whoever is the Loss Payee in the lease agreement.

Then comes salvage. Engines would normally be worth a lot GE90-110/115s are about USD30 million new, but doubt many have the cash to buy them right now. So they’ll either go for fire sale prices or not at all. Plus the engines are probably full of foam from the firefighting efforts, which is never good and would need investment to clean up in a workshop before corrosion sets in.
 
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airportugal310
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:15 pm

787SIN wrote:
So they’ll either go for fire sale prices or not at all.


Your pun, whether intended or not, is well-noted!! ;)
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alasizon
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:27 pm

2175301 wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
For those who think they can check in a tablet, laptop, or cell phone, think again.


My understanding of the USA TSA regs is that you can have a device with an internal lithium battery smaller than 160 watts in your checked in luggage.

Personally, I'd prefer that they would require said device to be in a special container designed to contain a battery fire. But, that is not what I understand the current regulations are. I checked the current rules on an airline luggage rules to verify this.

Have a great day,


FWIW, TSA doesn't set the regulations on dangerous goods, that would be the DOT (technically via the FAA but there are some regulations that are adopted from the master DG regulations from the DOT).

Traditionally, 160 watt hours is the max for checked items but there are specific airline rules typically dictating how many you are allowed. 300 watt hours are permitted in certain mobility aids (I believe most airlines use 300 watt hours but some do use a lower number).

This definitely has all the markings of a dangerous goods incident; the investigation likely will identify either undeclared batteries, improperly packed batteries (either loose or not in a suitable box) or damaged batteries during transport to the aircraft (likely in conjunction with improperly packed batteries).
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zeke
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Re: Ethiopian B77F on fire at PVG

Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:52 pm

alasizon wrote:

This definitely has all the markings of a dangerous goods incident; the investigation likely will identify either undeclared batteries, improperly packed batteries (either loose or not in a suitable box) or damaged batteries during transport to the aircraft (likely in conjunction with improperly packed batteries).


It is not unheard of for loaders also to catch fire, if they were rolling a pallet of face masks or other disposable medical equipment onto the aircraft it would provide a fuel for a rapidly spreading fire.
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