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Cointrin330
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Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes?

Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:43 pm

Looks like BRU is getting a pre-clearance facility for outbound to US passengers, joining DUB and SNN as the third European airport to feature this type of facility. I'm curious if this may result in more US service added, if and when travel normalizes (obviously, not right away).

UA is the leading US carrier to BRU, with EWR, ORD, and IAD service (at one point, there was talk of BRU going double daily from EWR during peak season), with DL operating (again, in a normal operating environment, ATL and JFK). AA exited the market as I recall, after the airport attack in 2016, with the the PHL-BRU service suspended. In the more distant past, AA operated JFK-BRU.

Could we see DL ramp up and AA return? BRU is a fairly substantial business market. UA has connectivity through Brussels Airlines via *Alliance, which is part of the larger footprint.
Last edited by SQ22 on Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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lesfalls
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Re: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:52 pm

I'm wondering how this will affect SN. This really will affect their connecting services for the worse as passengers will need more time to connect. The time I flew JFK-BRU-JFK it seemed half full with connections while the rest of the flight was empty. At the same time from the BRU based passenger this might give them an advantage especially for all the government/Nato/EU traffic which goes to IAD. Maybe SN will receive more local based FF for their U.S long haul flights with less connecting passengers for the future.
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Brickell305
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Re: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:55 pm

Could the thread title be edited to add a ? after the word routes? The way it’s written now makes it seem as if they are getting a preclearance and possible new routes.

On topic, I think there likely won’t be any new routes in the short term (for obvious reasons). Medium term, I don’t see the attraction for anyone other than UA to add more flights as it might make it more attractive to route passengers through BRU as opposed to other European Star Alliance hubs. Don’t see how this changes things for AA or DL. I don’t foresee new routes but maybe just added capacity on what’s already flown.
 
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airzim
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Re: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:56 pm

Not sure how per-clearance would drive any additional traffic and thus more flights to the US. All this does is push the immigration process outside the US airports.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:12 pm

airzim wrote:
Not sure how per-clearance would drive any additional traffic and thus more flights to the US. All this does is push the immigration process outside the US airports.


Probably won't lead to an increase in traffic demand but for UA specifically, it would eliminate the T5 to T1 transfer at ORD and quite possibly chop off an hour of connection time required. BRU originating pax would definitely benefit while BRU connecting pax would require a bit longer time to connect. I'd definitely opt for the BRU pre-clearance option over any T5-T1 option at ORD if connecting in the US. For Chicago destined pax it probably doesn't make any difference other than the potentially long lines at T5.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:13 pm

Yes BRU was one of the 10 selected locations for pre clearance expansion. Its been up to the host government to build and prepare the facility for US CBP to staff.

Previous thread on topic
viewtopic.php?t=603169
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usflyer msp
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:17 pm

I personally think there should be a rule where an airport has to have 8 flights to US operated by US carriers before it can be considered for preclearance. Otherwise, preclearance gives unfair advantages to foreign carriers. Like I know people that purpose fly to the US via YYZ because they don't have to pickup their bags.
 
USAirALB
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:20 pm

I highly doubt that this will lead to more US service. BRU has traditionally been a smaller TATL market as it just really doesn't have the same tourist appeal as say AMS or MAD, and a number of services have come/gone over the years.

Current BRU-US service:
SN: JFK/ORD
DL: ATL/JFK
UA: ORD/EWR/IAD

AA previously ran PHL (inherited from US), JFK, and ORD. US ran CLT for a season. US markets that could potentially have BRU service (MIA, maybe SFO/LAX) already have CBP facilities in place.
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klm617
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:27 pm

Maybe DTW-BRU has a chance on Delta as both Northwest and Sabena served the Detroit Brussels route. Sabena flew Detroit Brussels for almost 9 years.
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Brickell305
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:28 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
I personally think there should be a rule where an airport has to have 8 flights to US operated by US carriers before it can be considered for preclearance. Otherwise, preclearance gives unfair advantages to foreign carriers. Like I know people that purpose fly to the US via YYZ because they don't have to pickup their bags.

In the example you cite, doesn't the fact that whatever subset of passengers make that choice still advantage non-US carriers (Canadianin this instance as they are the ones with hubs in Toronto) despite the fact that YYZ receives significantly more than 8 flights from US carriers?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:30 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
I personally think there should be a rule where an airport has to have 8 flights to US operated by US carriers before it can be considered for preclearance. Otherwise, preclearance gives unfair advantages to foreign carriers.


You understand it's the host country that's paying to build the facility, right? Why would they build it if the spending yielded no benefit?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:32 pm

airzim wrote:
Not sure how per-clearance would drive any additional traffic and thus more flights to the US. All this does is push the immigration process outside the US airports.


I don't see how it advances may useful agendas, either. Clearing gets done seven hours earlier. So what? Any body have numbers of non-citizens arriving by air to the U.S. who are denied entry and immediately returned?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:40 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I personally think there should be a rule where an airport has to have 8 flights to US operated by US carriers before it can be considered for preclearance. Otherwise, preclearance gives unfair advantages to foreign carriers. Like I know people that purpose fly to the US via YYZ because they don't have to pickup their bags.

In the example you cite, doesn't the fact that whatever subset of passengers make that choice still advantage non-US carriers (Canadianin this instance as they are the ones with hubs in Toronto) despite the fact that YYZ receives significantly more than 8 flights from US carriers?


I'm fine with Canada as the US carriers get the benefit of their 30 flights day ex-YYZ arriving as domestic flights. I'm.againt something like AUH or SNN which basically get no use from US carriers.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:41 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I personally think there should be a rule where an airport has to have 8 flights to US operated by US carriers before it can be considered for preclearance. Otherwise, preclearance gives unfair advantages to foreign carriers.


You understand it's the host country that's paying to build the facility, right? Why would they build it if the spending yielded no benefit?


The US still has to staff it and it does give benefit -- to the host country!
 
kyrone
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:52 pm

USAirALB wrote:
I highly doubt that this will lead to more US service. BRU has traditionally been a smaller TATL market as it just really doesn't have the same tourist appeal as say AMS or MAD, and a number of services have come/gone over the years.

Current BRU-US service:
SN: JFK/ORD
DL: ATL/JFK
UA: ORD/EWR/IAD

AA previously ran PHL (inherited from US), JFK, and ORD. US ran CLT for a season. US markets that could potentially have BRU service (MIA, maybe SFO/LAX) already have CBP facilities in place.


SN does not fly ORD, but they do fly IAD.
 
drdisque
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:23 pm

I can see AA returning to PHL when they get the A321XLR.

B6 to BOS might be a slight possibility way down the road on the A321XLR.

I can also see more European holiday traffic to Florida departing from BRU vs. other nearby Benelux airports once the pandemic is over.

If the LH Group ULCC has long-haul it might fly to MIA and then codeshare with Avianca and Copa. In MIA they could proceed directly to their departure gate, just like connecting in Europe. It is a bit of a push to rely on feed at a station where UA has a minimal presence, but I think it could work.
 
LJ
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:31 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I personally think there should be a rule where an airport has to have 8 flights to US operated by US carriers before it can be considered for preclearance. Otherwise, preclearance gives unfair advantages to foreign carriers. Like I know people that purpose fly to the US via YYZ because they don't have to pickup their bags.

In the example you cite, doesn't the fact that whatever subset of passengers make that choice still advantage non-US carriers (Canadianin this instance as they are the ones with hubs in Toronto) despite the fact that YYZ receives significantly more than 8 flights from US carriers?


I'm fine with Canada as the US carriers get the benefit of their 30 flights day ex-YYZ arriving as domestic flights. I'm.againt something like AUH or SNN which basically get no use from US carriers.


Pre-clearance benefits most those airlines which have a big portion of O&D and not much feed in Europe. The CAPA article sums it quite nicely, the benefits of pre-clearance are limited for airlines providing connections in Europe.

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/reports/us-immigration-pre-clearance-is-extended-in-europe-north-asia-and-caribbean-but-at-what-cost-229961
 
Varsity1
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:35 pm

drdisque wrote:
I can see AA returning to PHL when they get the A321XLR.

B6 to BOS might be a slight possibility way down the road on the A321XLR.

I can also see more European holiday traffic to Florida departing from BRU vs. other nearby Benelux airports once the pandemic is over.

If the LH Group ULCC has long-haul it might fly to MIA and then codeshare with Avianca and Copa. In MIA they could proceed directly to their departure gate, just like connecting in Europe. It is a bit of a push to rely on feed at a station where UA has a minimal presence, but I think it could work.



I wonder if AA could made DCA-BRU possible with pre clearance? The traffic demand and ties are obvious.
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FSDan
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:35 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Could we see DL ramp up and AA return?


DL in particular doesn't have much incentive to ramp up their BRU ops. They already serve one of the biggest O&D markets for business traffic (JFK-BRU), and their massive connecting hub in ATL. Those two flights can handle the majority of BRU-bound passengers from the DL network quite well, not to mention that their single largest European operation (AMS) is only 1:30 away from central Brussels by high speed train.
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FSDan
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:37 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
I can see AA returning to PHL when they get the A321XLR.

B6 to BOS might be a slight possibility way down the road on the A321XLR.

I can also see more European holiday traffic to Florida departing from BRU vs. other nearby Benelux airports once the pandemic is over.

If the LH Group ULCC has long-haul it might fly to MIA and then codeshare with Avianca and Copa. In MIA they could proceed directly to their departure gate, just like connecting in Europe. It is a bit of a push to rely on feed at a station where UA has a minimal presence, but I think it could work.



I wonder if AA could made DCA-BRU possible with pre clearance? The traffic demand and ties are obvious.


The perimeter rule precludes that, barring additional out-of-perimeter allowances. Otherwise, that would be an interesting idea when the 321XLRs start to arrive...
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DylanHarvey
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:38 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
I can see AA returning to PHL when they get the A321XLR.

B6 to BOS might be a slight possibility way down the road on the A321XLR.

I can also see more European holiday traffic to Florida departing from BRU vs. other nearby Benelux airports once the pandemic is over.

If the LH Group ULCC has long-haul it might fly to MIA and then codeshare with Avianca and Copa. In MIA they could proceed directly to their departure gate, just like connecting in Europe. It is a bit of a push to rely on feed at a station where UA has a minimal presence, but I think it could work.



I wonder if AA could made DCA-BRU possible with pre clearance? The traffic demand and ties are obvious.

I think there’s a reason why DCA doesn’t have TATL. And can the XLR get out of DCA with full pax and atleast a decent cargo hold? I know the made mods to the flaps to maintain takeoff performance from the LR even at 101t
 
SCQ83
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:44 pm

FSDan wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Could we see DL ramp up and AA return?


DL in particular doesn't have much incentive to ramp up their BRU ops. They already serve one of the biggest O&D markets for business traffic (JFK-BRU), and their massive connecting hub in ATL. Those two flights can handle the majority of BRU-bound passengers from the DL network quite well, not to mention that their single largest European operation (AMS) is only 1:30 away from central Brussels by high speed train.


And CDG is 1:30 away from central Brussels by high speed train on the other direction, and LHR is a 45 minutes flight from BRU.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:44 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
Could the thread title be edited to add a ? after the word routes? The way it’s written now makes it seem as if they are getting a preclearance and possible new routes.

On topic, I think there likely won’t be any new routes in the short term (for obvious reasons). Medium term, I don’t see the attraction for anyone other than UA to add more flights as it might make it more attractive to route passengers through BRU as opposed to other European Star Alliance hubs. Don’t see how this changes things for AA or DL. I don’t foresee new routes but maybe just added capacity on what’s already flown.


Well, the moderators have done that, so it's clearer, though honestly, it was pretty clear from the get go. Agree though on DL. AA, I am not so sure, though I don't think PHL is the ideal gateway to BRU. The only logical one is JFK, if the B6 partnership allows for it, in terms of traffic feed and the industry recovers.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:45 pm

FSDan wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Could we see DL ramp up and AA return?


DL in particular doesn't have much incentive to ramp up their BRU ops. They already serve one of the biggest O&D markets for business traffic (JFK-BRU), and their massive connecting hub in ATL. Those two flights can handle the majority of BRU-bound passengers from the DL network quite well, not to mention that their single largest European operation (AMS) is only 1:30 away from central Brussels by high speed train.


Agreed, yes, DL has what it needs to BRU and there is not much more for them to add, unless it was BOS, if they ever have the opportunity and resources to focus on TATL build out from there again once the pandemic eases.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:51 pm

AA should add JFK-BRU with its new JetBlue partnership :stirthepot:
 
Varsity1
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:13 pm

FSDan wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
I can see AA returning to PHL when they get the A321XLR.

B6 to BOS might be a slight possibility way down the road on the A321XLR.

I can also see more European holiday traffic to Florida departing from BRU vs. other nearby Benelux airports once the pandemic is over.

If the LH Group ULCC has long-haul it might fly to MIA and then codeshare with Avianca and Copa. In MIA they could proceed directly to their departure gate, just like connecting in Europe. It is a bit of a push to rely on feed at a station where UA has a minimal presence, but I think it could work.



I wonder if AA could made DCA-BRU possible with pre clearance? The traffic demand and ties are obvious.


The perimeter rule precludes that, barring additional out-of-perimeter allowances. Otherwise, that would be an interesting idea when the 321XLRs start to arrive...


Can't help but think the government officials using the flight might have a say or two about the perimeter rule. If it benefits them.
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Galwayman
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:52 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I personally think there should be a rule where an airport has to have 8 flights to US operated by US carriers before it can be considered for preclearance. Otherwise, preclearance gives unfair advantages to foreign carriers. Like I know people that purpose fly to the US via YYZ because they don't have to pickup their bags.

In the example you cite, doesn't the fact that whatever subset of passengers make that choice still advantage non-US carriers (Canadianin this instance as they are the ones with hubs in Toronto) despite the fact that YYZ receives significantly more than 8 flights from US carriers?


I'm fine with Canada as the US carriers get the benefit of their 30 flights day ex-YYZ arriving as domestic flights. I'm.againt something like AUH or SNN which basically get no use from US carriers.



Because it gives benefits to US citizerns who are travelling and US citizens are much more important than US airlines, always
 
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klm617
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:00 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
drdisque wrote:
I can see AA returning to PHL when they get the A321XLR.

B6 to BOS might be a slight possibility way down the road on the A321XLR.

I can also see more European holiday traffic to Florida departing from BRU vs. other nearby Benelux airports once the pandemic is over.

If the LH Group ULCC has long-haul it might fly to MIA and then codeshare with Avianca and Copa. In MIA they could proceed directly to their departure gate, just like connecting in Europe. It is a bit of a push to rely on feed at a station where UA has a minimal presence, but I think it could work.



I wonder if AA could made DCA-BRU possible with pre clearance? The traffic demand and ties are obvious.


I like that idea. At the very least on the inbound.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
N292UX
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:17 pm

B6 BOS-BRU on the A321XLR doesn't seem impossible to me.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:33 pm

Galwayman wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Brickell305 wrote:
In the example you cite, doesn't the fact that whatever subset of passengers make that choice still advantage non-US carriers (Canadianin this instance as they are the ones with hubs in Toronto) despite the fact that YYZ receives significantly more than 8 flights from US carriers?


I'm fine with Canada as the US carriers get the benefit of their 30 flights day ex-YYZ arriving as domestic flights. I'm.againt something like AUH or SNN which basically get no use from US carriers.



Because it gives benefits to US citizerns who are travelling and US citizens are much more important than US airlines, always


What is the benefit to US Citizens? What difference does it make to them whether you go through immigration/customs before/after your flight? I actually prefer after my flight as it gives me something to do while I wait for baggage to come out.
 
Conti764
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:42 pm

What's the advantage for anyone transfering from anywhere in Europe (or Africa for BRU) to the US through a pre clearance facility in stead of passing through customs and border control in a US airport?

I can imagine it makes a difference in time if you pass pre clearance in a foreign airport than in the US during an arrival wave from Europe.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:10 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
Galwayman wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

I'm fine with Canada as the US carriers get the benefit of their 30 flights day ex-YYZ arriving as domestic flights. I'm.againt something like AUH or SNN which basically get no use from US carriers.



Because it gives benefits to US citizerns who are travelling and US citizens are much more important than US airlines, always


What is the benefit to US Citizens? What difference does it make to them whether you go through immigration/customs before/after your flight? I actually prefer after my flight as it gives me something to do while I wait for baggage to come out.

Allows for a shorter time in customs and a quicker connection time on the US end, opening up more potential connecting options.
 
airhansa
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:12 am

Brussels has good overland connections by train, so it might give the city an advantage over nearby airports such as AMS, FRA or CDG. I also believe that it would be easier to pass security whilst in your homeland and that SN connects much of Africa (along with Europe's position in the Middle East) which the US might want to pre-clear.
 
DTWLAX
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:40 am

usflyer msp wrote:

I'm fine with Canada as the US carriers get the benefit of their 30 flights day ex-YYZ arriving as domestic flights. I'm.againt something like AUH or SNN which basically get no use from US carriers.

Isn't that the US carrier's decision not to fly to SNN or AUH? Nobody has stopped US carriers from flying to those cities. They choose not to.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:54 am

Brickell305 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
Galwayman wrote:


Because it gives benefits to US citizerns who are travelling and US citizens are much more important than US airlines, always


What is the benefit to US Citizens? What difference does it make to them whether you go through immigration/customs before/after your flight? I actually prefer after my flight as it gives me something to do while I wait for baggage to come out.

Allows for a shorter time in customs and a quicker connection time on the US end, opening up more potential connecting options.


You also have to get to the airport an hour earlier so it's a wash, travel time wise.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:57 am

DTWLAX wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

I'm fine with Canada as the US carriers get the benefit of their 30 flights day ex-YYZ arriving as domestic flights. I'm.againt something like AUH or SNN which basically get no use from US carriers.

Isn't that the US carrier's decision not to fly to SNN or AUH? Nobody has stopped US carriers from flying to those cities. They choose not to.


US tax money is paying to staff those facilities but our businesses are not benefitting at all.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:04 am

usflyer msp wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

I'm fine with Canada as the US carriers get the benefit of their 30 flights day ex-YYZ arriving as domestic flights. I'm.againt something like AUH or SNN which basically get no use from US carriers.

Isn't that the US carrier's decision not to fly to SNN or AUH? Nobody has stopped US carriers from flying to those cities. They choose not to.


US tax money is paying to staff those facilities but our businesses are not benefitting at all.


Huh? What about the US businesses that have to fly their employees to and from airports that have those facilities? By your logic then, US Tax Money is being used to staff US FIS facilities, but there's no benefit to US businesses if foreign businesses fly their employees to the US.

Pre-Clearance can alleviate some of the backlog at US airports (though not now, amid COVID19) and it can be practical, and useful for US companies doing business in those cities or having a large operation there. As an American that travels frequently between the US and Europe, I've found the pre-clearance facilities at DUB (and SNN) a perk. Avoids endless lines, dingy arrivals halls at some US airports, and over-entitled (and likely over-paid) FIS staff resenting their jobs (tax payer funded, I should add) having to process arriving passengers in the surly manner that the experience often is at US airports.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:14 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
DTWLAX wrote:
Isn't that the US carrier's decision not to fly to SNN or AUH? Nobody has stopped US carriers from flying to those cities. They choose not to.


US tax money is paying to staff those facilities but our businesses are not benefitting at all.


Huh? What about the US businesses that have to fly their employees to and from airports that have those facilities? By your logic then, US Tax Money is being used to staff US FIS facilities, but there's no benefit to US businesses if foreign businesses fly their employees to the US.

Pre-Clearance can alleviate some of the backlog at US airports (though not now, amid COVID19) and it can be practical, and useful for US companies doing business in those cities or having a large operation there. As an American that travels frequently between the US and Europe, I've found the pre-clearance facilities at DUB (and SNN) a perk. Avoids endless lines, dingy arrivals halls at some US airports, and over-entitled (and likely over-paid) FIS staff resenting their jobs (tax payer funded, I should add) having to process arriving passengers in the surly manner that the experience often is at US airports.


It is the same FIS workers, they are just getting paid more to be stationed overseas.

If they kept staffing the same and moved those workers stateside the lines would not be long.

The primary beneficiary of DUB preclearance is Aer Lingus, would you have flown them without preclearance?
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4989
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:22 am

drdisque wrote:
I can see AA returning to PHL when they get the A321XLR.

B6 to BOS might be a slight possibility way down the road on the A321XLR.

I can also see more European holiday traffic to Florida departing from BRU vs. other nearby Benelux airports once the pandemic is over.

If the LH Group ULCC has long-haul it might fly to MIA and then codeshare with Avianca and Copa. In MIA they could proceed directly to their departure gate, just like connecting in Europe. It is a bit of a push to rely on feed at a station where UA has a minimal presence, but I think it could work.

If the feed is substantial? Then it might prompt UA to have a major Gateway in South Florida. Right now? there's not much need to..
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4989
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:28 am

usflyer msp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I personally think there should be a rule where an airport has to have 8 flights to US operated by US carriers before it can be considered for preclearance. Otherwise, preclearance gives unfair advantages to foreign carriers.


You understand it's the host country that's paying to build the facility, right? Why would they build it if the spending yielded no benefit?


The US still has to staff it and it does give benefit -- to the host country!

No, it benefits the USA for customs entry as well. It makes arrivals in the USA? Damn near seamless. for connecting flights as not everybody is stopping at the coasts.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4989
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:33 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
Looks like BRU is getting a pre-clearance facility for outbound to US passengers, joining DUB and SNN as the third European airport to feature this type of facility. I'm curious if this may result in more US service added, if and when travel normalizes (obviously, not right away).

UA is the leading US carrier to BRU, with EWR, ORD, and IAD service (at one point, there was talk of BRU going double daily from EWR during peak season), with DL operating (again, in a normal operating environment, ATL and JFK). AA exited the market as I recall, after the airport attack in 2016, with the the PHL-BRU service suspended. In the more distant past, AA operated JFK-BRU.

Could we see DL ramp up and AA return? BRU is a fairly substantial business market. UA has connectivity through Brussels Airlines via *Alliance, which is part of the larger footprint.

This could also prompt DIA, IAH and SFO non stops on UA as well.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3805
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:22 am

strfyr51 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

You understand it's the host country that's paying to build the facility, right? Why would they build it if the spending yielded no benefit?


The US still has to staff it and it does give benefit -- to the host country!

No, it benefits the USA for customs entry as well. It makes arrivals in the USA? Damn near seamless. for connecting flights as not everybody is stopping at the coasts.


How does that benefit the USA? Pax will have to clear US immigration and customs no matter what.
 
SwissCanuck
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:06 am

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:30 am

usflyer msp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I personally think there should be a rule where an airport has to have 8 flights to US operated by US carriers before it can be considered for preclearance. Otherwise, preclearance gives unfair advantages to foreign carriers.


You understand it's the host country that's paying to build the facility, right? Why would they build it if the spending yielded no benefit?


The US still has to staff it and it does give benefit -- to the host country!


It shrinks lines stateside - everyone wins.
 
Toinou
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 am

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:00 am

When evaluating the costs and benefits of such measure, you should also remember that preclearance imply a form of breach in host nation's sovereignty by allowing a foreign power's officers to have power in a country (and if I remember correctly, they are also exempted from some local rules). This is also a non-negligible cost.

I wonder how countries would react if any other country (except the UK who does some sort of similar thing) asked for that.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 652
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:20 am

LJ wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
I'm fine with Canada as the US carriers get the benefit of their 30 flights day ex-YYZ arriving as domestic flights. I'm.againt something like AUH or SNN which basically get no use from US carriers.


Pre-clearance benefits most those airlines which have a big portion of O&D and not much feed in Europe. The CAPA article sums it quite nicely, the benefits of pre-clearance are limited for airlines providing connections in Europe.

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/reports/us-immigration-pre-clearance-is-extended-in-europe-north-asia-and-caribbean-but-at-what-cost-229961


Not necessarily. AUH's preclearance exist solely on transit passengers from Indian sub-continents. I have done both online and offline transit in Pre-clearance locations like AUH and DUB. Clearly there is a market for transit passengers. Both Etihad and Aer Lingus sells transit ticket and pre-clearance is one of the big attractions. That being said, Dublin connection has disadvantages as there are limited connection opportunities. Many travellers actually opt for overnight in Dublin to be on safe side. Then again that is boost for local economy. AUH also have problems as one or two flights was outside the operational hours (I think one LAX and one JFK in the period I travelled).
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 2012
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:28 am

usflyer msp wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:

US tax money is paying to staff those facilities but our businesses are not benefitting at all.


Huh? What about the US businesses that have to fly their employees to and from airports that have those facilities? By your logic then, US Tax Money is being used to staff US FIS facilities, but there's no benefit to US businesses if foreign businesses fly their employees to the US.

Pre-Clearance can alleviate some of the backlog at US airports (though not now, amid COVID19) and it can be practical, and useful for US companies doing business in those cities or having a large operation there. As an American that travels frequently between the US and Europe, I've found the pre-clearance facilities at DUB (and SNN) a perk. Avoids endless lines, dingy arrivals halls at some US airports, and over-entitled (and likely over-paid) FIS staff resenting their jobs (tax payer funded, I should add) having to process arriving passengers in the surly manner that the experience often is at US airports.


It is the same FIS workers, they are just getting paid more to be stationed overseas.

If they kept staffing the same and moved those workers stateside the lines would not be long.

The primary beneficiary of DUB preclearance is Aer Lingus, would you have flown them without preclearance?


Again, your argument makes no sense. Obviously, EI is the biggest beneficiary because DUB is its hub. But the US carriers using DUB all benefit from it too, and I've flown all 3 + EI. As for FIS workers getting paid more to work overseas, I am not so sure that is the case, other than perhaps a cost of living adjustment, which would also apply in higher cost places in the US. The notion that America is #1 at all costs at everyone else's expense is so tired and clearly, from the looks of our country right now, does not work.
Last edited by Cointrin330 on Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 2012
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:29 am

strfyr51 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Looks like BRU is getting a pre-clearance facility for outbound to US passengers, joining DUB and SNN as the third European airport to feature this type of facility. I'm curious if this may result in more US service added, if and when travel normalizes (obviously, not right away).

UA is the leading US carrier to BRU, with EWR, ORD, and IAD service (at one point, there was talk of BRU going double daily from EWR during peak season), with DL operating (again, in a normal operating environment, ATL and JFK). AA exited the market as I recall, after the airport attack in 2016, with the the PHL-BRU service suspended. In the more distant past, AA operated JFK-BRU.

Could we see DL ramp up and AA return? BRU is a fairly substantial business market. UA has connectivity through Brussels Airlines via *Alliance, which is part of the larger footprint.

This could also prompt DIA, IAH and SFO non stops on UA as well.


Potentially, down the road in a post COVID19 world, but not right now, no. SFO would be the likeliest candidate but it is far off. UA isn't even flying all its existing BRU services right now, but I would agree that UA would be the one airline among the big 3 to add flights at BRU in the future if its viable.
 
airbazar
Posts: 10168
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:15 pm

airzim wrote:
Not sure how per-clearance would drive any additional traffic and thus more flights to the US.

One way is more gate flexibility in the U.S. side. Pre-Pandemic most East Coast international gateways were running at full capacity for international gates making it very difficult to add new flights during the prime evening slots.
In addition, while it causes some hassle for connections in BRU, it makes connections on the U.S. side a lot easier. Regardless, if it's anything like Ireland or Canada clearing immigration in BRU should be a lot easier and faster than on arrival in the U.S. So it's not merely shifting the location of the facility, it's improving the experience for the traveler too.
There's also a benefit for both the airline and the U.S. gov: By shifting the location to BRU it reduces the liability (and costs) to the airline for denied entry passengers. If a passenger arrives in the U.S. and is denied entry, the airline has to transport the passenger back, or the passenger has to be detained until it can be transported back, at a cost to the U.S. government.
So there are advantages. But I agree that the biggest advantage is for O&D passengers.
 
ethernal
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon May 06, 2019 12:09 pm

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:41 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
usflyer msp wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

You understand it's the host country that's paying to build the facility, right? Why would they build it if the spending yielded no benefit?


The US still has to staff it and it does give benefit -- to the host country!

No, it benefits the USA for customs entry as well. It makes arrivals in the USA? Damn near seamless. for connecting flights as not everybody is stopping at the coasts.


That is a complete and utter lie. Pre-clearance is the worst - especially for US citizens. If I clear Customs in the US, at least I am either in my home city or I am likely at a large hub with a lot of flight options to get home. So if I get held up in Customs for whatever reason (very common for people like myself who are on watch lists though no fault of their own other than an algorithm deciding that I am higher risk because I have engaged in constitutionally protected activities that the CBP/DHS may not appreciate), I am not stressed about missing my connecting flight - either because I'm already home or there are other flights to get me home.

Getting stuck in pre-clearance means missing flights that may have only once-daily frequency. Even if there are other flights, it may not be on the same carrier/alliance so rebooking to another one may not be feasible. It creates massive leverage for the CBP to pressure you into cooperating in ways that you otherwise would not (e.g., providing passwords to electronic devices).

I have done odd routings before for the specific purpose of avoiding pre-clearance (e.g., AUA-MEX-ATL rather than AUA-ATL).

Arguably pre-clearance benefits non-US citizens because it is better for them to be turned away for whatever nonsensical and arbitrary reason the CBP decides when they are closer to their origination point for the same reason (more likely to be able to turn around and get home quickly and avoid having an uncomfortable overnight stay at a CBP detention center).
 
hohd
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 1:03 am

Re: Rumour: BRU Getting US Pre-Clearance - Possible New Routes

Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:13 pm

Agree with the above poster. Pre clearance yields no benefits to US citizens. I have cleared customs and immigration in US and most of the times it took less than an hour (most of this time is waiting for the bags, which I have to wait even if I have pre clearance). With the kiosks, immigration is a breeze. The only reason it can make sense if for some countries in EU which currently do not have visa waiver, can possibly use this facility without visa (similar to Bahamas pre clearance facility). Bahamas citizens to enter US without visa must do pre clearance only at Bahamas, otherwise they have to get a visa.

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