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GSTBA
Topic Author
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:20 am

Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:42 pm

Qatar Airways and Japan Airlines will move to Terminal 5 from next week. Qatar Airways will be first to move on Monday (27th) with Japan airlines moving 2 days later.

Finnair is expected to be the 6th OW carrier to move in mid August, however this is still to be confirmed officially.

https://londonairtravel.com/2020/07/23/ ... erminal-5/
 
lhrnue
Posts: 376
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Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:09 pm

Makes so much sense. Oneworld in one terminal for easier transfer. BA part-owns T5, therefore cutting it's losses. Qatar owns 25% of IAG.
 
SueD
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:27 pm

lhrnue wrote:
Makes so much sense. Oneworld in one terminal for easier transfer. BA part-owns T5, therefore cutting it's losses. Qatar owns 25% of IAG.


BA do NOT own part of T5 they just have a long lease.

Qatar aircraft have used T5 before albeit on sub lease to BA, JAL are currently down to a single daily whilst BA have so many none op US routes accommodation is hardly a problem for the time being
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:28 pm

In 3 years time, will there be enough space at T5 for oneworld ? T5 wasn't exactly empty in 2019...
 
jfk777
Posts: 7388
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:52 pm

The dynamic between which One World airlines use Terminal 5 & Terminal 3 will be interesting. Which BA flights get moved to T3 ? Do BA flights to Miami, Capetown, Lagos, and Accra stay at T3 or move ? As a passenger traveling to Miami from T3 I always enjoyed using the Cathay lounges, the only one air conditioned on hot summer days. Is Cathay staying at T3 all by themselves or is BA moving them and their five flights to T5 ?

Maybe the time has arrived when Terminal 3 sees its end, but what do you do with Virgin Atlantic ? Before T3 sees the wrecking ball T1 needs to be demolished and whatever addition gets built for T2 on that land. Terminal 2 is not done building and only then does enough terminal space exist to demolish T3. Interesting times at Heathrow, but when have they not been interesting ? Never
 
Opus99
Posts: 1159
Joined: Thu May 30, 2019 10:51 pm

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:07 pm

jfk777 wrote:
The dynamic between which One World airlines use Terminal 5 & Terminal 3 will be interesting. Which BA flights get moved to T3 ? Do BA flights to Miami, Capetown, Lagos, and Accra stay at T3 or move ? As a passenger traveling to Miami from T3 I always enjoyed using the Cathay lounges, the only one air conditioned on hot summer days. Is Cathay staying at T3 all by themselves or is BA moving them and their five flights to T5 ?

Maybe the time has arrived when Terminal 3 sees its end, but what do you do with Virgin Atlantic ? Before T3 sees the wrecking ball T1 needs to be demolished and whatever addition gets built for T2 on that land. Terminal 2 is not done building and only then does enough terminal space exist to demolish T3. Interesting times at Heathrow, but when have they not been interesting ? Never

Just a correction, Lagos is T5. Maybe T4 might get the wrecking ball? but to what end...so i'm not sure about that one. T3 getting the wrecking ball would be a difficult one especially for virgin atlantic, but then again when T2 was being built i know some airlines moved to T3, maybe the opposite can happen this time around for T3? I'm not sure either because T1 was operational at that time
 
jfk777
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Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:25 pm

Terminal 1 has been abandoned for years but not torn down, why ? I don't know but its taking up some valuable T2 area where many more planes could be parked, Virgin Atlantic could do worse.
 
cityshuttle
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 3:56 pm

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:37 pm

Which of the OW carries weren’t in T3 or T5 ?

QR, RJ, MH, AT ? Are S7 & UL operating to LHR ?
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1227
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:52 pm

SueD wrote:
accommodation is hardly a problem for the time being


T5 accommodation is a massive problem.
Even now, there’s not enough space for the aircraft to park.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 715
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:53 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Terminal 1 has been abandoned for years but not torn down, why ? I don't know but its taking up some valuable T2 area where many more planes could be parked, Virgin Atlantic could do worse.


Last year (or late 2018, I need to double check), Heathrow Airport had an auction to sell the recycled aviation equipment from old T1, that includes boarding bridge, baggage convey belt, partition doors...etc. T1 will be torn down, but at a slower pace. The process was to savage as much as possible and sell any resalable assets they could recover. T2 needs to be completed so I guess the next phase would be demolish T1 and extend T2 northward. However, that being said, T2 is not overly crowded at this moment, or even pre Covid-19. When T2 is fully built, it can only add 8 widebody stands, or 13-14 narrow body stands, and T2B will gain 2 widebody stands as of now (the connector between T2 and T2B has been completed.).

So theoretically speaking, when T1 is gone and T2 is finished, the Virgin Pire on T3 can be closed and moved to T2, providing space to build T3 satellite.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 4856
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:15 pm

Oh god not another thread on this. We had one last week? We’re going around in circles!
T4 is closed til next summer.
T1 is an emptyy shell with pier 3 gone, 4 truncated and 4A with no airbridges and little else.

The moves are entirely to keep operating costs down. T3 and T4 will reopen as traffic comes back and moves will happen again. Arguements likely.

As it is, Virgin and Emirates cannot access their premium lounge facilities (closed T3) and so expect serious pressure for an early reopening as they’re at a major competitve disadvantage in the meantime.
 
fcogafa
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:42 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Terminal 1 has been abandoned for years but not torn down, why ? I don't know but its taking up some valuable T2 area where many more planes could be parked, Virgin Atlantic could do worse.


T2 used to use the old T1 baggage system, maybe it still does
 
DTVG
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:06 pm

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:06 am

chonetsao wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Terminal 1 has been abandoned for years but not torn down, why ? I don't know but its taking up some valuable T2 area where many more planes could be parked, Virgin Atlantic could do worse.


Last year (or late 2018, I need to double check), Heathrow Airport had an auction to sell the recycled aviation equipment from old T1, that includes boarding bridge, baggage convey belt, partition doors...etc. T1 will be torn down, but at a slower pace. The process was to savage as much as possible and sell any resalable assets they could recover. T2 needs to be completed so I guess the next phase would be demolish T1 and extend T2 northward. However, that being said, T2 is not overly crowded at this moment, or even pre Covid-19. When T2 is fully built, it can only add 8 widebody stands, or 13-14 narrow body stands, and T2B will gain 2 widebody stands as of now (the connector between T2 and T2B has been completed.).

So theoretically speaking, when T1 is gone and T2 is finished, the Virgin Pire on T3 can be closed and moved to T2, providing space to build T3 satellite.


So why is the whole process taking so long? They have been building that T2 connector for ages.
Lack of demand, incompetence or legal blockades?
 
SueD
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:38 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
SueD wrote:
accommodation is hardly a problem for the time being


T5 accommodation is a massive problem.
Even now, there’s not enough space for the aircraft to park.


Well BA better move some of those aircraft that have been sitting there for months somewhere else . indeed even in normal times they allow stands to be occupied for hours and hours . True they tow some to their own corner or off the those former pier 7 stands from time to time !
 
fcogafa
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:37 pm

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:53 am

Probably connected to the uncertanties of the third runway which would have taken priority

So why is the whole process taking so long? They have been building that T2 connector for ages.
Lack of demand, incompetence or legal blockades?
 
User avatar
Aisak
Posts: 933
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:56 pm

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:11 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
In 3 years time, will there be enough space at T5 for oneworld ? T5 wasn't exactly empty in 2019...

Of course not (if traffic recovers 2019 levels). The question really is: Is terminal 5 complex, and more specifically the main building able to process more than half of LHR overall passengers? I think we all know the awnser. BA doesn't run a split T5-T3 operation for the joy of it. T5 didn't fit all of BA when it opened, it won't fit a bigger BA plus the rest of oneworld.

jfk777 wrote:
The dynamic between which One World airlines use Terminal 5 & Terminal 3 will be interesting. Which BA flights get moved to T3 ? Do BA flights to Miami, Capetown, Lagos, and Accra stay at T3 or move?
[...]
Interesting times at Heathrow, but when have they not been interesting ? Never

Nope, And there's always something new to learn from this airport and its operations. It's really amazing.
At the end of the day, the flights/routes/frames that BA chooses to "push" out of T5 complex due to space constrains it exclusively up to BA. Whatever people running the operation see it fit. In the past, a whole subfleet (the remaining 757s) was based at T3 for operational efficiencies and those frames mainly operated flights codeshared with OW partners based there (IB MAD-BCN, AY HEL, later the 747s joined for the 3 kangaroo flights of the QF JV). Then IB moved out to T5, Vueling is just one flight, the QF JV is over... lots of things have changed and so the BA T3 based flights and aircraft. And of course we will see BA flights at T3 when traffic recovers and probably some other ones compared to 2019.

jfk777 wrote:
Maybe the time has arrived when Terminal 3 sees its end, but what do you do with Virgin Atlantic ? Before T3 sees the wrecking ball T1 needs to be demolished and whatever addition gets built for T2 on that land. Terminal 2 is not done building and only then does enough terminal space exist to demolish T3.


Well, the master plan designed for the whole LHR was meant for an scenario that no longer exists. Heathrow East construction in two phases was meant to house Star Alliance and Virgin Atlantic.
Phase one should have been ready for the London 2012 Olympics. It wans't. The terminal was designed with UK&Ireland domestic capabilities because its main tennant, bmi needed it. Now, bmi is no more, and all those capabilities are handled at T5 as BA took over about half of bmi operation (the leftover...). Aer Lingus UK&Irish operation could also move out to T5 (and join IB) with some minor changes. But that means giving up some valuable space and investment at the form of the lounge at T2.
Virgin is another story to tell. It was supposed to be based at H.East because being 49%-owned by SQ and having bmi acting as its feeding partner... it made sense. Now it's 49%-owned by Delta and made it leave T4 shared with its Skyteam folks.
Under these circumstances, what would be the purpose of T2 North? Is there any rush? The new space is not needed bacause for now there is no R3, so there are no more flights. The current LHR master plan (with R3) waves T3 goodbye. Yes, but its site is replaced with two satellite buildings connected to... T2. So, current T3 operation has to somehow move out, to be able to tear it down and build the two toast rack satellites. T2 basing all Star, all oneworld+BA overflow+VS+DL? T2 needs T2C to happen before thinking about replacing T3 in my opinion.
 
chonetsao
Posts: 715
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:55 pm

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:24 am

DTVG wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
So why is the whole process taking so long? They have been building that T2 connector for ages.
Lack of demand, incompetence or legal blockades?


Well, it all goes back to one thing: what HAL wants T2 to be and what was proposed.

T2 was proposed to be Heathrow East project by Livingston. That is how long ago it was. The design was changed from the original Heathrow East project. So to cut the long story short, London hurried the project of T2 in order to build for Queen's Jubilee and London Olympics. So the T2 headhouse is only less than half of what it intended.

Heathrow East (T2) project is approved and it is fundamentally from the Heathrow expansion or 3rd runway. There is minimum legal blockade. Demand was never the problem until Covid-19. Incompetence? I don't know.

But the problem for Heathrow is to finalise a plan for T2 and T3. Due to the on going saga of 3rd runway and its incorporated T6 planning, Heathrow seems to be in a position that they do not know what to do with T2 and T3. One day they say they will build T3 into a new T5 style, one day they say they will only keep the 4 gates in the south and won't have a T3 any more. Then another day they discuss the possibility of a pre-clearance in either T2 or T3...I personally can understand their dilemma. If 3rd runway is built, and T6 is built, they no longer need T3 but just build another satellite that connect with T2 and T5. However, if the T6 and 3rd runway never gets built, or delayed by another decade, then they need the space of T3 to keep the terminal, or rebuild it into T5 style...That also have a big impact on T2. Whatever happens to the final design of the T2 headhouse north, it would have to consider what happens to T3 in future and the possibility of a pre-clearance terminal.

So I would not say incompetence. Rather it is a planning issue with no clear finalised plan for terminal redevelopment. There are some legal issue but not directly involved with T2 and T3.
 
lhrnue
Posts: 376
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:47 pm

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:45 am

SueD wrote:
lhrnue wrote:
Makes so much sense. Oneworld in one terminal for easier transfer. BA part-owns T5, therefore cutting it's losses. Qatar owns 25% of IAG.


BA do NOT own part of T5 they just have a long lease.

Qatar aircraft have used T5 before albeit on sub lease to BA, JAL are currently down to a single daily whilst BA have so many none op US routes accommodation is hardly a problem for the time being


BA might not own the building but many of the systems and lounges. Not least the baggage system has additional functionality compared to the other terminals.

"British Airways invested £330 million in designing and equipping its parts of the terminal. This figure included £60 million spent on the lounge complex as well as significant investment in IT systems, ground vehicles and equipment, storage and maintenance facilities plus staff training and familiarisation."
 
SueD
Posts: 286
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: Oneworld airlines & LHR T5

Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:49 pm

All that can be removed as I said they don’t own T5 . IT back office equipment needn't even be on estate.

True the container system is custom investment, however when it breaks down its an utter nightmare for days on end .

As for lounges they are actually a pretty cheap return on charging X2 x5 or x10 base fares to be honest .

A few glass partitions , commercial chairs and tables WiFi and power points ( in the suspended floors by design) meh !

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