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dstblj52
Topic Author
Posts: 499
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:22 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

Since Expressjet was part of UA's Aviate program, I imagine most of their captains were moving up to the Bigs at year 5 until COVID hit. There is just a $6 per flight hour difference between a 5th year EV E145 captain and a 5th year C5 captain. The difference between 5th year FO pay is just $3 per flight hour. C5 somewhat cheaper in pilot pay, but not significantly.

C5 is less than 1/3rd the size of EV in terms of pilots, so for C5 to take over EV's routes, they will need to go to the expense of hiring and training more flight crews. In terms of training, by shutting down EV, UA Express will lose EV's 3 exclusive E145, full-motion simulators and fully-trained instructors in the airline's SOP's, where C5 most likely will have to rely on outside vendors like Flight Safety. The same goes for fleet size, where EV has 3 times the number of E145, therefore, C5 will have to rapidly upscale their maintenance ops to accommodate the expected fleet growth. And C5 still has to set up a viable base in IAH, which will take time and money.

Having retired from the aerospace world I know how the competitive contract bidding game is played: "We bid to win and then figure out how the hell to do it for the budget and schedule we signed-up to after we win." C5 did this part well and United took the bait. The problems will come in a few years when (if UA doesn't decide to punt the E145 flying completely) the post-COVID recovery comes and C5 will be struggling to keep up.


And you'd be wrong. EV had a very, very senior pilot group. Had they shrunk to nothing more than a 20 airplane fleet, they would have had 10-12 year pilots on reserve, as FOs.


Nah, I'm not wrong. EV was in the Aviate Program and attracting pilots thanks to the flow to UA. I doubt they had that many 10+/year pilots on their roster who weren't flight ops managers, check airmen, sim instructors, etc.

And where did you come up with this "20-airplane fleet" when the combination of this "winner take all" competition combined EV's 95 E145's with C5's 35 E145's? The winner (C5) now has to grow nearly on an order of magnitute of 3 to do all the flying they now signed up for, but are now constrained by their rock-bottom bid. Good luck with that!

But I'll keep repeating this: UA and the other Big 3's want to get rid of 50-seat flying, just as they got rid of turboprop flying back 10 years ago. Their FF's don't like flying on them and the planes are getting old, with no modern tech replacements. This "hunger games" competition between EV & C5 was UA's big step in that direction. As for OO, they can simply park their CRJ2 fleet when UA gives the command since they hold most of the more lucurative E175 flying for UA.

Uh Xjets average captain had 18 years of service they were a very senior regional less senior than they were in the past but still very senior when compared to C5 average captain at year 4 plus throw in Xjets better contract and the fight was over before it even started, and the costs won't be a trouble for C5 over the next few years with a crap ton of low seniority employees being added but if you were to tell me that in 5 years C5 is also gone yeah that would not be shocking at all
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:55 pm

dstblj52 wrote:
Actually they totally could and thats what just about ever major did between 2001 and 2009 it pissed a lot of people off but there was nothing that could be done about it


This has always been a tough industry as RJ companies and employees are always whipsawed against each other. The flight school purchased by UAL could not possible produce a competitive candidate at 5 years when at the time it was hiring 15 year total service RJ captains and retirees off active duty from the military. That was the peer group; highly competitive and furloughs will only exacerbate that. While 5 year Captains get hired, as do some really extremely new people to the industry, that’s not the norm. Those that haven’t had decent time in command of an RJ, corporate or military a/c really struggle.
Last edited by EssentialPowr on Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dstblj52
Topic Author
Posts: 499
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Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:15 am

EssentialPowr wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Actually they totally could and thats what just about ever major did between 2001 and 2009 it pissed a lot of people off but there was nothing that could be done about it


This has always been a tough industry as RJ companies and employees are always whipsawed against each other. The flight school purchased by UAL could not possible produce a competitive candidate at 5 years when at the time it was hiring 15 year total service RJ captains and retirees off active duty from the military. That was the peer group; highly competitive and furloughs will only exacerbate that. While 5 year Captains get hired, as do some really extremely new people to the industry, that’s not the norm. Those that haven’t had decent time in command of an RJ, corporate military a/c really struggle.

Agreed but i was just pointing out that if united wanted to they could grow the 50 seater operation but they likely want to direct all the block hours they can to the large rj carriers for the better rasm and casm
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 797
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Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:24 am

dstblj52 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:

And you'd be wrong. EV had a very, very senior pilot group. Had they shrunk to nothing more than a 20 airplane fleet, they would have had 10-12 year pilots on reserve, as FOs.


Nah, I'm not wrong. EV was in the Aviate Program and attracting pilots thanks to the flow to UA. I doubt they had that many 10+/year pilots on their roster who weren't flight ops managers, check airmen, sim instructors, etc.

And where did you come up with this "20-airplane fleet" when the combination of this "winner take all" competition combined EV's 95 E145's with C5's 35 E145's? The winner (C5) now has to grow nearly on an order of magnitute of 3 to do all the flying they now signed up for, but are now constrained by their rock-bottom bid. Good luck with that!

But I'll keep repeating this: UA and the other Big 3's want to get rid of 50-seat flying, just as they got rid of turboprop flying back 10 years ago. Their FF's don't like flying on them and the planes are getting old, with no modern tech replacements. This "hunger games" competition between EV & C5 was UA's big step in that direction. As for OO, they can simply park their CRJ2 fleet when UA gives the command since they hold most of the more lucurative E175 flying for UA.

Uh Xjets average captain had 18 years of service they were a very senior regional less senior than they were in the past but still very senior when compared to C5 average captain at year 4 plus throw in Xjets better contract and the fight was over before it even started, and the costs won't be a trouble for C5 over the next few years with a crap ton of low seniority employees being added but if you were to tell me that in 5 years C5 is also gone yeah that would not be shocking at all


I'm confused. If you are at EV with flow to UA, why would you stick around EV for 18+ years as a E175 captain making EV's max rate of $110 per flight hour ($105 for the E145) when you could be making $134 per flight hour in the right seat of a UA B73G in year 2 ($91 per hour in the training year 1) and $172 per flight hour at year 5? I understand the romance and adventure of flying, wanting be be in the left seat, but isn't that sort of a dumb career move for a senior-level pro pilot to stick around in the minors that long? I could see if you were a check airman with some management perks and a piece of the corporate action (stock options & grants, special bonuses, free coffee, etc...).

Maybe I'm missing something?
 
AA757223
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:29 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

Nah, I'm not wrong. EV was in the Aviate Program and attracting pilots thanks to the flow to UA. I doubt they had that many 10+/year pilots on their roster who weren't flight ops managers, check airmen, sim instructors, etc.

And where did you come up with this "20-airplane fleet" when the combination of this "winner take all" competition combined EV's 95 E145's with C5's 35 E145's? The winner (C5) now has to grow nearly on an order of magnitute of 3 to do all the flying they now signed up for, but are now constrained by their rock-bottom bid. Good luck with that!

But I'll keep repeating this: UA and the other Big 3's want to get rid of 50-seat flying, just as they got rid of turboprop flying back 10 years ago. Their FF's don't like flying on them and the planes are getting old, with no modern tech replacements. This "hunger games" competition between EV & C5 was UA's big step in that direction. As for OO, they can simply park their CRJ2 fleet when UA gives the command since they hold most of the more lucurative E175 flying for UA.

Uh Xjets average captain had 18 years of service they were a very senior regional less senior than they were in the past but still very senior when compared to C5 average captain at year 4 plus throw in Xjets better contract and the fight was over before it even started, and the costs won't be a trouble for C5 over the next few years with a crap ton of low seniority employees being added but if you were to tell me that in 5 years C5 is also gone yeah that would not be shocking at all


I'm confused. If you are at EV with flow to UA, why would you stick around EV for 18+ years as a E175 captain making EV's max rate of $110 per flight hour ($105 for the E145) when you could be making $134 per flight hour in the right seat of a UA B73G in year 2 ($91 per hour in the training year 1) and $172 per flight hour at year 5? I understand the romance and adventure of flying, wanting be be in the left seat, but isn't that sort of a dumb career move for a senior-level pro pilot to stick around in the minors that long? I could see if you were a check airman with some management perks and a piece of the corporate action (stock options & grants, special bonuses, free coffee, etc...).

Maybe I'm missing something?



It wasn’t a flow agreement the same way AA has with their regionals. You had to “pass” a personality test which got you an interview. If passed, then you interviewed. If you passed both then you flowed through after a couple years. There was no automatic flow.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:41 am

FLALEFTY wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something?


Nope. The difference over a 25 plus year career, RJ vs major, is in the millions in net gross pay.
 
jmc1975
Posts: 3064
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Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:55 am

Maybe they could go back to branded flying like in 2007-2008.
.......
 
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FLALEFTY
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:16 am

AA757223 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Uh Xjets average captain had 18 years of service they were a very senior regional less senior than they were in the past but still very senior when compared to C5 average captain at year 4 plus throw in Xjets better contract and the fight was over before it even started, and the costs won't be a trouble for C5 over the next few years with a crap ton of low seniority employees being added but if you were to tell me that in 5 years C5 is also gone yeah that would not be shocking at all


I'm confused. If you are at EV with flow to UA, why would you stick around EV for 18+ years as a E175 captain making EV's max rate of $110 per flight hour ($105 for the E145) when you could be making $134 per flight hour in the right seat of a UA B73G in year 2 ($91 per hour in the training year 1) and $172 per flight hour at year 5? I understand the romance and adventure of flying, wanting be be in the left seat, but isn't that sort of a dumb career move for a senior-level pro pilot to stick around in the minors that long? I could see if you were a check airman with some management perks and a piece of the corporate action (stock options & grants, special bonuses, free coffee, etc...).

Maybe I'm missing something?



It wasn’t a flow agreement the same way AA has with their regionals. You had to “pass” a personality test which got you an interview. If passed, then you interviewed. If you passed both then you flowed through after a couple years. There was no automatic flow.


I'm now intrigued. Do you have any insight, or even good hall talk that can describe what sort of questions were asked in UA's personality test? Was it sort of a "Ludivico Technique"-style interrogation? I've heard that bean counters at airlines can be susceptible to all sorts of fads to keep the workers in line.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:24 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
toltommy wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
This makes me wonder why UA didn't broker some sort of "shotgun marriage" merger between the two E145 operators, then work out how much service they would have going forward. As it was, UA forced a "face off" between the two where the cheapest was the winner. But as we usually find out, the cheapest solution is not always the best.

A merger would have kept the (soon-to-be) former EV base at IAH somewhat intact, but consolidated the corporate ops, which would have saved lots of money. As it is, C5 will have to expend overhead costs of having to set up an operating base at IAH on their own.


Consolidating corporate ops, especially at a regional, isn't going to save a ton of money. Yes it would eliminate duplication, but not that much. If UA forced a merger between the two carriers, there would be very little savings. Both pilot groups are ALPA, both FA groups are IAM. That likely would result in a straight seniority list merge by seniority. The high cost senior EV pilots (and flight attendants) would remain. UA can achieve greater over all cost savings immediately by walking away from Expressjet, and building up Commutair with new hire crews. There wont be another regional merger for this very reason.


Since Expressjet was part of UA's Aviate program, I imagine most of their captains were moving up to the Bigs at year 5 until COVID hit. There is just a $6 per flight hour difference between a 5th year EV E145 captain and a 5th year C5 captain. The difference between 5th year FO pay is just $3 per flight hour. C5 was somewhat cheaper in pilot pay, but not significantly.

C5 is less than 1/3rd the size of EV in terms of pilots, so for C5 to take over EV's routes, they will need to go to the expense of hiring and training more flight crews. In terms of training, by shutting down EV, UA Express will lose EV's 3 exclusive E145, full-motion simulators and fully-trained instructors in the airline's SOP's, where C5 most likely will have to rely on outside vendors like Flight Safety. The same goes for fleet size, where EV has 3 times the number of E145's, therefore, C5 will have to rapidly upscale their maintenance ops to accommodate the expected fleet growth. And C5 still has to set up a viable base in IAH, which will take time and money.

Having retired from the aerospace world I know how the competitive contract bidding game is played: "We bid to win and then figure out how the hell to do it for the budget and schedule we signed-up to after we win." C5 did this part well and United took the bait. The problems will come in a few years when (if UA doesn't decide to punt the E145 flying completely) the post-COVID recovery comes and C5 will be struggling to keep up.

There is more, far more to it than just hourly wages.
PTO, Swap ability, Healthcare payouts, longetivity, retirement payouts, base pay, commuter pay, base transfer pay, etc, etc, adn.

Commutair's pilot contract is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than EX.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:31 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

Nah, I'm not wrong. EV was in the Aviate Program and attracting pilots thanks to the flow to UA. I doubt they had that many 10+/year pilots on their roster who weren't flight ops managers, check airmen, sim instructors, etc.

And where did you come up with this "20-airplane fleet" when the combination of this "winner take all" competition combined EV's 95 E145's with C5's 35 E145's? The winner (C5) now has to grow nearly on an order of magnitute of 3 to do all the flying they now signed up for, but are now constrained by their rock-bottom bid. Good luck with that!

But I'll keep repeating this: UA and the other Big 3's want to get rid of 50-seat flying, just as they got rid of turboprop flying back 10 years ago. Their FF's don't like flying on them and the planes are getting old, with no modern tech replacements. This "hunger games" competition between EV & C5 was UA's big step in that direction. As for OO, they can simply park their CRJ2 fleet when UA gives the command since they hold most of the more lucurative E175 flying for UA.

Uh Xjets average captain had 18 years of service they were a very senior regional less senior than they were in the past but still very senior when compared to C5 average captain at year 4 plus throw in Xjets better contract and the fight was over before it even started, and the costs won't be a trouble for C5 over the next few years with a crap ton of low seniority employees being added but if you were to tell me that in 5 years C5 is also gone yeah that would not be shocking at all


I'm confused. If you are at EV with flow to UA, why would you stick around EV for 18+ years as a E175 captain making EV's max rate of $110 per flight hour ($105 for the E145) when you could be making $134 per flight hour in the right seat of a UA B73G in year 2 ($91 per hour in the training year 1) and $172 per flight hour at year 5? I understand the romance and adventure of flying, wanting be be in the left seat, but isn't that sort of a dumb career move for a senior-level pro pilot to stick around in the minors that long? I could see if you were a check airman with some management perks and a piece of the corporate action (stock options & grants, special bonuses, free coffee, etc...).

Maybe I'm missing something?


Three words...
QUALITY
OF
LIFE

Senior captain, they have to close the doors to lay you off, pretty much writing and trading to your own schedule, with time at home to watch the kids grow up in a city with a low cost of living where you live very well, vs becoming a mainline FO on little or no notice reserve, bouncing through bases, spending half your days commuting to sit reserve, sharing a crash pad with 14 others in NYC, while your-soon-to-be-ex-wife and the kids that no longer know who you are continue on with life without you.
 
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FLALEFTY
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:33 am

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:40 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
toltommy wrote:

Consolidating corporate ops, especially at a regional, isn't going to save a ton of money. Yes it would eliminate duplication, but not that much. If UA forced a merger between the two carriers, there would be very little savings. Both pilot groups are ALPA, both FA groups are IAM. That likely would result in a straight seniority list merge by seniority. The high cost senior EV pilots (and flight attendants) would remain. UA can achieve greater over all cost savings immediately by walking away from Expressjet, and building up Commutair with new hire crews. There wont be another regional merger for this very reason.


Since Expressjet was part of UA's Aviate program, I imagine most of their captains were moving up to the Bigs at year 5 until COVID hit. There is just a $6 per flight hour difference between a 5th year EV E145 captain and a 5th year C5 captain. The difference between 5th year FO pay is just $3 per flight hour. C5 was somewhat cheaper in pilot pay, but not significantly.

C5 is less than 1/3rd the size of EV in terms of pilots, so for C5 to take over EV's routes, they will need to go to the expense of hiring and training more flight crews. In terms of training, by shutting down EV, UA Express will lose EV's 3 exclusive E145, full-motion simulators and fully-trained instructors in the airline's SOP's, where C5 most likely will have to rely on outside vendors like Flight Safety. The same goes for fleet size, where EV has 3 times the number of E145's, therefore, C5 will have to rapidly upscale their maintenance ops to accommodate the expected fleet growth. And C5 still has to set up a viable base in IAH, which will take time and money.

Having retired from the aerospace world I know how the competitive contract bidding game is played: "We bid to win and then figure out how the hell to do it for the budget and schedule we signed-up to after we win." C5 did this part well and United took the bait. The problems will come in a few years when (if UA doesn't decide to punt the E145 flying completely) the post-COVID recovery comes and C5 will be struggling to keep up.

There is more, far more to it than just hourly wages.
PTO, Swap ability, Healthcare payouts, longetivity, retirement payouts, base pay, commuter pay, base transfer pay, etc, etc, adn.

Commutair's pilot contract is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than EX.


So Commutair is the modern version of the now-departed Gulfstream Airlines (reborn as Silver Airways), where they were literally having pilots with freshly-minted ATP's pay to ride around in the right seat of a B1900 to build-up time? Commutair sounds like an unpleasant place to work.
 
catiii
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Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:58 am

trueblew wrote:
catiii wrote:
KLMatSJC wrote:
Considering they're owned by UA, that's highly unlikely.


The Mana Air holding company, controlled by Subodh Karnik, owns them. UA has a 49% stake.


You believe that UA doesn't actually own and control ExpressJet and that Mana Air is merely a construct to obfuscate that fact?


In as much as what I know from talking to Subodh, and the actions that UA took, and the actions that I understand he’s looking to take, I do believe it.
Last edited by catiii on Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
dstblj52
Topic Author
Posts: 499
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:38 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:58 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

Since Expressjet was part of UA's Aviate program, I imagine most of their captains were moving up to the Bigs at year 5 until COVID hit. There is just a $6 per flight hour difference between a 5th year EV E145 captain and a 5th year C5 captain. The difference between 5th year FO pay is just $3 per flight hour. C5 was somewhat cheaper in pilot pay, but not significantly.

C5 is less than 1/3rd the size of EV in terms of pilots, so for C5 to take over EV's routes, they will need to go to the expense of hiring and training more flight crews. In terms of training, by shutting down EV, UA Express will lose EV's 3 exclusive E145, full-motion simulators and fully-trained instructors in the airline's SOP's, where C5 most likely will have to rely on outside vendors like Flight Safety. The same goes for fleet size, where EV has 3 times the number of E145's, therefore, C5 will have to rapidly upscale their maintenance ops to accommodate the expected fleet growth. And C5 still has to set up a viable base in IAH, which will take time and money.

Having retired from the aerospace world I know how the competitive contract bidding game is played: "We bid to win and then figure out how the hell to do it for the budget and schedule we signed-up to after we win." C5 did this part well and United took the bait. The problems will come in a few years when (if UA doesn't decide to punt the E145 flying completely) the post-COVID recovery comes and C5 will be struggling to keep up.

There is more, far more to it than just hourly wages.
PTO, Swap ability, Healthcare payouts, longetivity, retirement payouts, base pay, commuter pay, base transfer pay, etc, etc, adn.

Commutair's pilot contract is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than EX.


So Commutair is the modern version of the now-departed Gulfstream Airlines (reborn as Silver Airways), where they were literally having pilots with freshly-minted ATP's pay to ride around in the right seat of a B1900 to build-up time? Commutair sounds like an unpleasant place to work.

Its not that bad and commutair is a significantly less pleasant place than ExpressJet if your at the same point in relative seniority but because the movement was much much faster at commutair by year two you were a senior Fo then year then-junior captain year four average captain seniority at least before COVID that was commutairs major advantage versus ExpressJet who often had decade long upgrade times and without PIC none of the big six (DL, AA, UA, WN, FX, 5X) want to look at your resume so you need PIC and that was much easier to get at commutair, but it was a much worse contract.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:59 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

Since Expressjet was part of UA's Aviate program, I imagine most of their captains were moving up to the Bigs at year 5 until COVID hit. There is just a $6 per flight hour difference between a 5th year EV E145 captain and a 5th year C5 captain. The difference between 5th year FO pay is just $3 per flight hour. C5 was somewhat cheaper in pilot pay, but not significantly.

C5 is less than 1/3rd the size of EV in terms of pilots, so for C5 to take over EV's routes, they will need to go to the expense of hiring and training more flight crews. In terms of training, by shutting down EV, UA Express will lose EV's 3 exclusive E145, full-motion simulators and fully-trained instructors in the airline's SOP's, where C5 most likely will have to rely on outside vendors like Flight Safety. The same goes for fleet size, where EV has 3 times the number of E145's, therefore, C5 will have to rapidly upscale their maintenance ops to accommodate the expected fleet growth. And C5 still has to set up a viable base in IAH, which will take time and money.

Having retired from the aerospace world I know how the competitive contract bidding game is played: "We bid to win and then figure out how the hell to do it for the budget and schedule we signed-up to after we win." C5 did this part well and United took the bait. The problems will come in a few years when (if UA doesn't decide to punt the E145 flying completely) the post-COVID recovery comes and C5 will be struggling to keep up.

There is more, far more to it than just hourly wages.
PTO, Swap ability, Healthcare payouts, longetivity, retirement payouts, base pay, commuter pay, base transfer pay, etc, etc, adn.

Commutair's pilot contract is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than EX.


So Commutair is the modern version of the now-departed Gulfstream Airlines (reborn as Silver Airways), where they were literally having pilots with freshly-minted ATP's pay to ride around in the right seat of a B1900 to build-up time? Commutair sounds like an unpleasant place to work.


Pay-to-play all but went away during the pilot shortage, and was always a thorn to pilots that had "paid their dues" coming up through the system (CFI, Ag, Jumpers, etc.) but look for it to make a quick comeback soon.
(Say a certain airline in PHX? Got a 737 type rating? No? Want one???
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:51 am

FlyingElvii wrote:

Pay-to-play all but went away during the pilot shortage, and was always a thorn to pilots that had "paid their dues" coming up through the system (CFI, Ag, Jumpers, etc.) but look for it to make a quick comeback soon.
(Say a certain airline in PHX? Got a 737 type rating? No? Want one???


In the late 90s there were quite a few pay for training RJ operations; many pilots from that seniority wave that took the “quality of life” at a regional and now, deeply regret it. ExpressJet is unfortunately a perfect example of this. Had they aggressively pursued a major after upgrading to RJ captain, they’d be approximately mid way up the seniority list at a major. Better $, better contract, much greater variety of flying, better work rules... Don’t see anything involving pay for whatever at the majors. Hopefully and most critically we get Covid19 under control sooner rather than later, and we can keep passengers and crews flying. There are an unlimited amount of cool places to see and things to do.

Cheers
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:32 am

EssentialPowr wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:

Pay-to-play all but went away during the pilot shortage, and was always a thorn to pilots that had "paid their dues" coming up through the system (CFI, Ag, Jumpers, etc.) but look for it to make a quick comeback soon.
(Say a certain airline in PHX? Got a 737 type rating? No? Want one???


In the late 90s there were quite a few pay for training RJ operations; many pilots from that seniority wave that took the “quality of life” at a regional and now, deeply regret it. ExpressJet is unfortunately a perfect example of this. Had they aggressively pursued a major after upgrading to RJ captain, they’d be approximately mid way up the seniority list at a major. Better $, better contract, much greater variety of flying, better work rules... Don’t see anything involving pay for whatever at the majors. Hopefully and most critically we get Covid19 under control sooner rather than later, and we can keep passengers and crews flying. There are an unlimited amount of cool places to see and things to do.

Cheers

There are soon to be THOUSANDS of pilots laid off in the US.
Republic Airways alone announced somewhere close to 1000 itself this week.
Some of these folks have Mommy/Daddy money that not only paid for their tickets, but will be used to buy them a job as well, giving them a leg up on the competition when and if the recovery ever begins. Just as before. And plenty of operators willing to take it. The days of $750-$1,000 a day contract flying are over for the foreseeable future, instead someone will be willing to pay for left seat turbine time, just as before. What is old is new again.
Sucks for those that have done it the hard way, but that, as they say, is life.
 
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RyanairGuru
Posts: 8417
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:59 am

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:39 am

EssentialPowr wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:

Pay-to-play all but went away during the pilot shortage, and was always a thorn to pilots that had "paid their dues" coming up through the system (CFI, Ag, Jumpers, etc.) but look for it to make a quick comeback soon.
(Say a certain airline in PHX? Got a 737 type rating? No? Want one???


In the late 90s there were quite a few pay for training RJ operations; many pilots from that seniority wave that took the “quality of life” at a regional and now, deeply regret it. ExpressJet is unfortunately a perfect example of this. Had they aggressively pursued a major after upgrading to RJ captain, they’d be approximately mid way up the seniority list at a major. Better $, better contract, much greater variety of flying, better work rules... Don’t see anything involving pay for whatever at the majors. Hopefully and most critically we get Covid19 under control sooner rather than later, and we can keep passengers and crews flying. There are an unlimited amount of cool places to see and things to do.

Cheers


People signing on with the regionals in the late 90s unfortunately hit the perfect storm over the next decade. Many would have hoped to upgrade in 3-4 years and then be onto the majors shortly after that. That plan never worked out due to the 9/11 downturn, followed by the wave of bankruptcies and associated relaxation of scope and introduction of large RJs, followed by retirement age being raised to 65 which meant less movement at the majors. By the time majors started hiring again around 2012, a 1998 hire would already be at the top of their payscale. Starting over at the bottom of someone else's seniority list makes less sense once you have 10+ years. While career earnings would still be higher if you jumped, money isn't everything to many people, and having a better choice of schedule and other quality of life factors mean a lot. Envoy has a much better defined flow-through agreement than ExpressJet, but there are still quite a few senior guys and gals at Envoy who decided it suited them better to stay at MQ than flow to AA. It is worth noting that regionals like ExpressJet, SkyWest and Envoy aren't bad places to work, compared to the likes of Mesa and Trans States, so more people would be satisfied to ride out their career there compared to those at the bottom feeder carriers. In hindsight I'm sure some wish that they'd moved on to the LCCs that were growing rapidly in the mid-to-late 2000s such as JetBlue, Spirit and Allegiant, instead of waiting for United, Delta etc but it isn't fair to Monday morning quarterback on other people's careers. The only thing I would say is that after Comair, and now ExpressJet, it would be short sighted to believe it couldn't happen to your carrier.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:48 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
There are soon to be THOUSANDS of pilots laid off in the US.
Republic Airways alone announced somewhere close to 1000 itself this week.
Some of these folks have Mommy/Daddy money that not only paid for their tickets, but will be used to buy them a job as well, giving them a leg up on the competition when and if the recovery ever begins. Just as before. And plenty of operators willing to take it. The days of $750-$1,000 a day contract flying are over for the foreseeable future, instead someone will be willing to pay for left seat turbine time, just as before. What is old is new again.
Sucks for those that have done it the hard way, but that, as they say, is life.


I think just about anyone is aware of the furloughs... privilege exists everywhere; the piloting profession is no different. We took a beating after 9/11, Bird Flu, SARS, (mad cow too, but not so much of an airline impact) and came back, Covid19 is no different. Hope things work out for you
 
amcnd
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:19 am

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:57 am

FLALEFTY wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

Nah, I'm not wrong. EV was in the Aviate Program and attracting pilots thanks to the flow to UA. I doubt they had that many 10+/year pilots on their roster who weren't flight ops managers, check airmen, sim instructors, etc.

And where did you come up with this "20-airplane fleet" when the combination of this "winner take all" competition combined EV's 95 E145's with C5's 35 E145's? The winner (C5) now has to grow nearly on an order of magnitute of 3 to do all the flying they now signed up for, but are now constrained by their rock-bottom bid. Good luck with that!

But I'll keep repeating this: UA and the other Big 3's want to get rid of 50-seat flying, just as they got rid of turboprop flying back 10 years ago. Their FF's don't like flying on them and the planes are getting old, with no modern tech replacements. This "hunger games" competition between EV & C5 was UA's big step in that direction. As for OO, they can simply park their CRJ2 fleet when UA gives the command since they hold most of the more lucurative E175 flying for UA.

Uh Xjets average captain had 18 years of service they were a very senior regional less senior than they were in the past but still very senior when compared to C5 average captain at year 4 plus throw in Xjets better contract and the fight was over before it even started, and the costs won't be a trouble for C5 over the next few years with a crap ton of low seniority employees being added but if you were to tell me that in 5 years C5 is also gone yeah that would not be shocking at all


I'm confused. If you are at EV with flow to UA, why would you stick around EV for 18+ years as a E175 captain making EV's max rate of $110 per flight hour ($105 for the E145) when you could be making $134 per flight hour in the right seat of a UA B73G in year 2 ($91 per hour in the training year 1) and $172 per flight hour at year 5? I understand the romance and adventure of flying, wanting be be in the left seat, but isn't that sort of a dumb career move for a senior-level pro pilot to stick around in the minors that long? I could see if you were a check airman with some management perks and a piece of the corporate action (stock options & grants, special bonuses, free coffee, etc...).

Maybe I'm missing something?


Ya. .. pay is more like $124 a hr. Crediting 90-120 a month with soft time, ect. Vs commuting to 80hrs at $140-170 at a major or LLC, Home almost every night.. I've been at a regional Over 20 years. Been very stable, compared to my friends that keep digging out of the downturns at the majors.. to each there own i guess...
 
catiii
Posts: 3607
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:02 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
EssentialPowr wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:

Pay-to-play all but went away during the pilot shortage, and was always a thorn to pilots that had "paid their dues" coming up through the system (CFI, Ag, Jumpers, etc.) but look for it to make a quick comeback soon.
(Say a certain airline in PHX? Got a 737 type rating? No? Want one???


In the late 90s there were quite a few pay for training RJ operations; many pilots from that seniority wave that took the “quality of life” at a regional and now, deeply regret it. ExpressJet is unfortunately a perfect example of this. Had they aggressively pursued a major after upgrading to RJ captain, they’d be approximately mid way up the seniority list at a major. Better $, better contract, much greater variety of flying, better work rules... Don’t see anything involving pay for whatever at the majors. Hopefully and most critically we get Covid19 under control sooner rather than later, and we can keep passengers and crews flying. There are an unlimited amount of cool places to see and things to do.

Cheers

There are soon to be THOUSANDS of pilots laid off in the US.
Republic Airways alone announced somewhere close to 1000 itself this week.
Some of these folks have Mommy/Daddy money that not only paid for their tickets, but will be used to buy them a job as well, giving them a leg up on the competition when and if the recovery ever begins. Just as before. And plenty of operators willing to take it. The days of $750-$1,000 a day contract flying are over for the foreseeable future, instead someone will be willing to pay for left seat turbine time, just as before. What is old is new again.
Sucks for those that have done it the hard way, but that, as they say, is life.


Exactly how is anyone’s parents going to “buy them a job?” Bribery?
 
catiii
Posts: 3607
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:18 am

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:03 am

catiii wrote:
trueblew wrote:
catiii wrote:

The Mana Air holding company, controlled by Subodh Karnik, owns them. UA has a 49% stake.


You believe that UA doesn't actually own and control ExpressJet and that Mana Air is merely a construct to obfuscate that fact?


In as much as what I know from talking to Subodh, and the actions that UA took, and the actions that I understand he’s looking to take, I do believe it.


And to be fair, they absolutely used that 49% to control ExpressJet at one point. But that day has now passed.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:35 am

catiii wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
EssentialPowr wrote:

In the late 90s there were quite a few pay for training RJ operations; many pilots from that seniority wave that took the “quality of life” at a regional and now, deeply regret it. ExpressJet is unfortunately a perfect example of this. Had they aggressively pursued a major after upgrading to RJ captain, they’d be approximately mid way up the seniority list at a major. Better $, better contract, much greater variety of flying, better work rules... Don’t see anything involving pay for whatever at the majors. Hopefully and most critically we get Covid19 under control sooner rather than later, and we can keep passengers and crews flying. There are an unlimited amount of cool places to see and things to do.

Cheers

There are soon to be THOUSANDS of pilots laid off in the US.
Republic Airways alone announced somewhere close to 1000 itself this week.
Some of these folks have Mommy/Daddy money that not only paid for their tickets, but will be used to buy them a job as well, giving them a leg up on the competition when and if the recovery ever begins. Just as before. And plenty of operators willing to take it. The days of $750-$1,000 a day contract flying are over for the foreseeable future, instead someone will be willing to pay for left seat turbine time, just as before. What is old is new again.
Sucks for those that have done it the hard way, but that, as they say, is life.


Exactly how is anyone’s parents going to “buy them a job?” Bribery?

No, just a check....
Google pay-to-play airlines.
It was actually a major thing 10-15 years ago. even as late as 2014.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 256
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:51 am

FlyingElvii wrote:
catiii wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
There are soon to be THOUSANDS of pilots laid off in the US.
Republic Airways alone announced somewhere close to 1000 itself this week.
Some of these folks have Mommy/Daddy money that not only paid for their tickets, but will be used to buy them a job as well, giving them a leg up on the competition when and if the recovery ever begins. Just as before. And plenty of operators willing to take it. The days of $750-$1,000 a day contract flying are over for the foreseeable future, instead someone will be willing to pay for left seat turbine time, just as before. What is old is new again.
Sucks for those that have done it the hard way, but that, as they say, is life.


Exactly how is anyone’s parents going to “buy them a job?” Bribery?

No, just a check....
Google pay-to-play airlines.
It was actually a major thing 10-15 years ago. even as late as 2014.

Yep, and many required you to pay for your own type rating, and you weren’t an employee or accruing longevity until checkride... Cost a lot of folks some seniority in a merger last decade. I’m also curious how the ATP-CTP goes, until now airlines has paid for it, but now there will be stacks who already possess an ATP, so I can’t see it being given out for “free” anymore.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:37 am

TonyClifton wrote:
Yep, and many required you to pay for your own type rating, and you weren’t an employee or accruing longevity until checkride... Cost a lot of folks some seniority in a merger last decade. I’m also curious how the ATP-CTP goes, until now airlines has paid for it, but now there will be stacks who already possess an ATP, so I can’t see it being given out for “free” anymore.


I think most regionals covered type ratings, maybe not SIC ratings (that was just a paperwork drill created after the Colgan crash) as that was part of the overall pay for training policy of a particular regional. Don’t see how one could have an employee/senioritynumber to start training if one wasn’t already employed, What airline had folks lose seniority as you describe? ALPA policy is seniority by class start date, not as it relates to a check ride completion. I’d be interested in which specific case you are referring...most new people coming to the regionals will already have an ATP so that’s not an issue.
 
amcnd
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:19 am

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:45 pm

Pay for training was a late 90’s thing. That all went away after 9/11. Mainly because of the Pilot shortage with RJ’s entering the mix.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 256
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:53 pm

EssentialPowr wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Yep, and many required you to pay for your own type rating, and you weren’t an employee or accruing longevity until checkride... Cost a lot of folks some seniority in a merger last decade. I’m also curious how the ATP-CTP goes, until now airlines has paid for it, but now there will be stacks who already possess an ATP, so I can’t see it being given out for “free” anymore.


I think most regionals covered type ratings, maybe not SIC ratings (that was just a paperwork drill created after the Colgan crash) as that was part of the overall pay for training policy of a particular regional. Don’t see how one could have an employee/senioritynumber to start training if one wasn’t already employed, What airline had folks lose seniority as you describe? ALPA policy is seniority by class start date, not as it relates to a check ride completion. I’d be interested in which specific case you are referring...most new people coming to the regionals will already have an ATP so that’s not an issue.

Not correct, ALPA policy is not seniority based on start date, but a combination of factors most notably “career expectations“ but also status, class etc (such as an airline with a hefty widebody fleet merging with an all narrowbody operator would likely see it weighted towards widebodies). Plenty of folks from Continental are more senior to folks hired at United and now consolidated on the list. McCaskill-Bond prohibits staple jobs, and Mohawk-Allegheny requires them to “fair and equitable” but it absolutely does not have to be by DoH.

Mergers are overly complex and drawn out, hence why you’ve seen the pivot away from mergers and instead just drawing down an operator and hiring their employees as day 1 new hires.

I think it will be a long while before regionals return to hiring straight OTS folks without prior-121 time. Maybe just a trickle of cadets.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:46 pm

amcnd wrote:
Pay for training was a late 90’s thing. That all went away after 9/11. Mainly because of the Pilot shortage with RJ’s entering the mix.


Yeah, noted the PFT thing about 10 posts prior... Competitive regional new hire times went from around 3500 total time to darn near mins circa 2002 on...
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:11 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

Since Expressjet was part of UA's Aviate program, I imagine most of their captains were moving up to the Bigs at year 5 until COVID hit. There is just a $6 per flight hour difference between a 5th year EV E145 captain and a 5th year C5 captain. The difference between 5th year FO pay is just $3 per flight hour. C5 somewhat cheaper in pilot pay, but not significantly.

C5 is less than 1/3rd the size of EV in terms of pilots, so for C5 to take over EV's routes, they will need to go to the expense of hiring and training more flight crews. In terms of training, by shutting down EV, UA Express will lose EV's 3 exclusive E145, full-motion simulators and fully-trained instructors in the airline's SOP's, where C5 most likely will have to rely on outside vendors like Flight Safety. The same goes for fleet size, where EV has 3 times the number of E145, therefore, C5 will have to rapidly upscale their maintenance ops to accommodate the expected fleet growth. And C5 still has to set up a viable base in IAH, which will take time and money.

Having retired from the aerospace world I know how the competitive contract bidding game is played: "We bid to win and then figure out how the hell to do it for the budget and schedule we signed-up to after we win." C5 did this part well and United took the bait. The problems will come in a few years when (if UA doesn't decide to punt the E145 flying completely) the post-COVID recovery comes and C5 will be struggling to keep up.


And you'd be wrong. EV had a very, very senior pilot group. Had they shrunk to nothing more than a 20 airplane fleet, they would have had 10-12 year pilots on reserve, as FOs.


Nah, I'm not wrong. EV was in the Aviate Program and attracting pilots thanks to the flow to UA. I doubt they had that many 10+/year pilots on their roster who weren't flight ops managers, check airmen, sim instructors, etc.


No you are 100% wrong. EV has one of the most if not the most senior group of pilots in the regional industry. Nearly all of their Captains after the COVID displacement several months ago had atleast 20 years with the company. The most junior FO after the furlough announcement was around 10 years.

This is why there was no merger the pilots were to expensive....it’s also why they lost out to commutair.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:19 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

Nah, I'm not wrong. EV was in the Aviate Program and attracting pilots thanks to the flow to UA. I doubt they had that many 10+/year pilots on their roster who weren't flight ops managers, check airmen, sim instructors, etc.

And where did you come up with this "20-airplane fleet" when the combination of this "winner take all" competition combined EV's 95 E145's with C5's 35 E145's? The winner (C5) now has to grow nearly on an order of magnitute of 3 to do all the flying they now signed up for, but are now constrained by their rock-bottom bid. Good luck with that!

But I'll keep repeating this: UA and the other Big 3's want to get rid of 50-seat flying, just as they got rid of turboprop flying back 10 years ago. Their FF's don't like flying on them and the planes are getting old, with no modern tech replacements. This "hunger games" competition between EV & C5 was UA's big step in that direction. As for OO, they can simply park their CRJ2 fleet when UA gives the command since they hold most of the more lucurative E175 flying for UA.

Uh Xjets average captain had 18 years of service they were a very senior regional less senior than they were in the past but still very senior when compared to C5 average captain at year 4 plus throw in Xjets better contract and the fight was over before it even started, and the costs won't be a trouble for C5 over the next few years with a crap ton of low seniority employees being added but if you were to tell me that in 5 years C5 is also gone yeah that would not be shocking at all


I'm confused. If you are at EV with flow to UA, why would you stick around EV for 18+ years as a E175 captain making EV's max rate of $110 per flight hour ($105 for the E145) when you could be making $134 per flight hour in the right seat of a UA B73G in year 2 ($91 per hour in the training year 1) and $172 per flight hour at year 5? I understand the romance and adventure of flying, wanting be be in the left seat, but isn't that sort of a dumb career move for a senior-level pro pilot to stick around in the minors that long? I could see if you were a check airman with some management perks and a piece of the corporate action (stock options & grants, special bonuses, free coffee, etc...).

Maybe I'm missing something?


It wasn’t a flow some of those pilots decided not to interview or did not make it through the interview.

Flying airplanes isn’t just about flying the biggest jet.....well for some people it is.....there is something to be said for being senior. If you could be top 100 making 150K why wouldn’t you? It would take 30+ years to hit that seniority at United.

Pick your days off? The best trips? And spend decades doing it? That’s good enough for some people.
 
CriticalPoint
Posts: 1062
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:01 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:21 pm

FLALEFTY wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:

Since Expressjet was part of UA's Aviate program, I imagine most of their captains were moving up to the Bigs at year 5 until COVID hit. There is just a $6 per flight hour difference between a 5th year EV E145 captain and a 5th year C5 captain. The difference between 5th year FO pay is just $3 per flight hour. C5 was somewhat cheaper in pilot pay, but not significantly.

C5 is less than 1/3rd the size of EV in terms of pilots, so for C5 to take over EV's routes, they will need to go to the expense of hiring and training more flight crews. In terms of training, by shutting down EV, UA Express will lose EV's 3 exclusive E145, full-motion simulators and fully-trained instructors in the airline's SOP's, where C5 most likely will have to rely on outside vendors like Flight Safety. The same goes for fleet size, where EV has 3 times the number of E145's, therefore, C5 will have to rapidly upscale their maintenance ops to accommodate the expected fleet growth. And C5 still has to set up a viable base in IAH, which will take time and money.

Having retired from the aerospace world I know how the competitive contract bidding game is played: "We bid to win and then figure out how the hell to do it for the budget and schedule we signed-up to after we win." C5 did this part well and United took the bait. The problems will come in a few years when (if UA doesn't decide to punt the E145 flying completely) the post-COVID recovery comes and C5 will be struggling to keep up.

There is more, far more to it than just hourly wages.
PTO, Swap ability, Healthcare payouts, longetivity, retirement payouts, base pay, commuter pay, base transfer pay, etc, etc, adn.

Commutair's pilot contract is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than EX.


So Commutair is the modern version of the now-departed Gulfstream Airlines (reborn as Silver Airways), where they were literally having pilots with freshly-minted ATP's pay to ride around in the right seat of a B1900 to build-up time? Commutair sounds like an unpleasant place to work.


Not even close! Where are you coming up with this stuff?
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:22 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
EssentialPowr wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
Yep, and many required you to pay for your own type rating, and you weren’t an employee or accruing longevity until checkride... Cost a lot of folks some seniority in a merger last decade. I’m also curious how the ATP-CTP goes, until now airlines has paid for it, but now there will be stacks who already possess an ATP, so I can’t see it being given out for “free” anymore.


One can’t start training without being an “employee”, how would that work? Along with being an employee, one gets a seniority number as a new hire. Longevity may be based on graduation date, but companies don’t train people that aren’t their own employees unless it was some form of pilot sought contract training, so that’s why I’ve asked for a specific example because what you’ve stated above is wrong without clarification.



Not correct, ALPA policy is not seniority based on start date, but a combination of factors most notably “career expectations“ but also status, class etc (such as an airline with a hefty widebody fleet merging with an all narrowbody operator would likely see it weighted towards widebodies). Plenty of folks from Continental are more senior to folks hired at United and now consolidated on the list. McCaskill-Bond prohibits staple jobs, and Mohawk-Allegheny requires them to “fair and equitable” but it absolutely does not have to be by DoH.

Mergers are overly complex and drawn out, hence why you’ve seen the pivot away from mergers and instead just drawing down an operator and hiring their employees as day 1 new hires.


You are flat out wrong here too. You went from PFT thought at a regional to ALPA merger policy between ALPA carriers. Within ALPA, and most Union representation, one gets a seniority number based on class start date. The “career expectations” is an ALPA to ALPA merger concept and has nothing to do with a seniority date as a new hire. Essentially the CAL/UAL merger necessitated that the relative seniority of some of the CAL pilots hired between 1995-1998 (approximately) would be based on their start date in CAL new hire class, not Continental Express, even though it was a wholly owned subsidiary by CAL IF they had elected to flow though to CAL. Those people kept their hire date at Express for longevity at the airline (non rev and benefits) but not on the seniority list. They were assigned new seniority numbers in blocks per the decision. I’d suggest you do some more research in order to understand that particular case.
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 256
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:26 pm

EssentialPowr wrote:
TonyClifton wrote:
EssentialPowr wrote:

One can’t start training without being an “employee”, how would that work? Along with being an employee, one gets a seniority number as a new hire. Longevity may be based on graduation date, but companies don’t train people that aren’t their own employees unless it was some form of pilot sought contract training, so that’s why I’ve asked for a specific example because what you’ve stated above is wrong without clarification.



Not correct, ALPA policy is not seniority based on start date, but a combination of factors most notably “career expectations“ but also status, class etc (such as an airline with a hefty widebody fleet merging with an all narrowbody operator would likely see it weighted towards widebodies). Plenty of folks from Continental are more senior to folks hired at United and now consolidated on the list. McCaskill-Bond prohibits staple jobs, and Mohawk-Allegheny requires them to “fair and equitable” but it absolutely does not have to be by DoH.

Mergers are overly complex and drawn out, hence why you’ve seen the pivot away from mergers and instead just drawing down an operator and hiring their employees as day 1 new hires.


You are flat out wrong here too. You went from PFT thought at a regional to ALPA merger policy between ALPA carriers. Within ALPA, and most Union representation, one gets a seniority number based on class start date. The “career expectations” is an ALPA to ALPA merger concept and has nothing to do with a seniority date as a new hire. Essentially the CAL/UAL merger necessitated that the relative seniority of some of the CAL pilots hired between 1995-1998 (approximately) would be based on their start date in CAL new hire class, not Continental Express, even though it was a wholly owned subsidiary by CAL IF they had elected to flow though to CAL. Those people kept their hire date at Express for longevity at the airline (non rev and benefits) but not on the seniority list. They were assigned new seniority numbers in blocks per the decision. I’d suggest you do some more research in order to understand that particular case.

Pinnacle. Plenty of people hired before say 2005 paid for their type rating, and their longevity date was not until sim completion. During the merger with XJ and 9L, it was an absolute scramble of a list, with 9L having people hired after XJ placed ahead on the list, and 9E having folks miss a month or two of longevity compared to how XJ and 9L handled their longevity date. Gets mixed up with seniority v longevity, but there’s countless instances of more junior folks jumping the list in a merger. I have no clue about that specific CAL/UAL instance, but there are 2007 CAL hires ahead of 2001 UAL hires.

Looking back, I think there is some confusion between us. I got on the merger track, and you were talking about seniority. Then longevity v seniority added into confusion, think I get what you’re saying. The quoting system here makes it more of a mess. Bit of a misread.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:07 pm

TonyClifton wrote:
Pinnacle. Plenty of people hired before say 2005 paid for their type rating, and their longevity date was not until sim completion. During the merger with XJ and 9L, it was an absolute scramble of a list, with 9L having people hired after XJ placed ahead on the list, and 9E having folks miss a month or two of longevity compared to how XJ and 9L handled their longevity date. Gets mixed up with seniority v longevity, but there’s countless instances of more junior folks jumping the list in a merger. I have no clue about that specific CAL/UAL instance, but there are 2007 CAL hires ahead of 2001 UAL hires.

Looking back, I think there is some confusion between us. I got on the merger track, and you were talking about seniority. Then longevity v seniority added into confusion, think I get what you’re saying. The quoting system here makes it more of a mess. Bit of a misread.



You initially stated flat out that someone wasn’t an employee until passing a check ride. That doesn’t make sense. If their seniority date was based on sim completion, that sounds like IAM or Teamsters representation but ok. Then you ref another merger, and how pilots were sorted between 2 carriers. Seniority date is the primary criteria, then what’re the career differences might have made (slight as it was a regional to regional case). The reason some CAL hires were senior to UAL hires was that they had more time in service at the time of the merger. Seniority doesn’t accrue from that decision while on furlough, so the CAL people from the group you mention were made senior to those and everybody got a new number. The concept applied is relative seniority, and the cases you mention regarding seniority date are both merger examples, not initial assignment of a employee number and seniority date within a company.
Last edited by EssentialPowr on Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
amcnd
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:19 am

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:14 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
FLALEFTY wrote:
dstblj52 wrote:
Uh Xjets average captain had 18 years of service they were a very senior regional less senior than they were in the past but still very senior when compared to C5 average captain at year 4 plus throw in Xjets better contract and the fight was over before it even started, and the costs won't be a trouble for C5 over the next few years with a crap ton of low seniority employees being added but if you were to tell me that in 5 years C5 is also gone yeah that would not be shocking at all


I'm confused. If you are at EV with flow to UA, why would you stick around EV for 18+ years as a E175 captain making EV's max rate of $110 per flight hour ($105 for the E145) when you could be making $134 per flight hour in the right seat of a UA B73G in year 2 ($91 per hour in the training year 1) and $172 per flight hour at year 5? I understand the romance and adventure of flying, wanting be be in the left seat, but isn't that sort of a dumb career move for a senior-level pro pilot to stick around in the minors that long? I could see if you were a check airman with some management perks and a piece of the corporate action (stock options & grants, special bonuses, free coffee, etc...).

Maybe I'm missing something?


It wasn’t a flow some of those pilots decided not to interview or did not make it through the interview.

Flying airplanes isn’t just about flying the biggest jet.....well for some people it is.....there is something to be said for being senior. If you could be top 100 making 150K why wouldn’t you? It would take 30+ years to hit that seniority at United.

Pick your days off? The best trips? And spend decades doing it? That’s good enough for some people.



Exactly. And get involved in training your pushed over 200k a year....
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:30 pm

amcnd wrote:
Exactly. And get involved in training your pushed over 200k a year....


Even at $200k a year one is leaving a lot of cash on the table to stay... Flying with the junior most people in the industry as FOs is a lot of exposure, as is unfortunately working for about any regional. Being at the top of a regional list is not bad, but To each Their own as was said...
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3400
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:14 pm

EssentialPowr wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Exactly. And get involved in training your pushed over 200k a year....


Even at $200k a year one is leaving a lot of cash on the table to stay... Flying with the junior most people in the industry as FOs is a lot of exposure, as is unfortunately working for about any regional. Being at the top of a regional list is not bad, but To each Their own as was said...


When will the armchair commanders realize there is more to life than a pile of cash?
From my cold, dead hands
 
TonyClifton
Posts: 256
Joined: Thu May 14, 2020 3:19 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:18 pm

EssentialPowr wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Exactly. And get involved in training your pushed over 200k a year....


Even at $200k a year one is leaving a lot of cash on the table to stay... Flying with the junior most people in the industry as FOs is a lot of exposure, as is unfortunately working for about any regional. Being at the top of a regional list is not bad, but To each Their own as was said...

Plenty at ASA, XJT, Comair, and TSA thought they’d be safe at the top of the list. I don’t shame anybody for being happy and staying put, but relying on a contract carrier is always a liability. The top weighted lists at Post Merger XJT, Comair definitely also didn’t help their survival. In an ideal world, a regional wants a pilot for ~5 years, then off to a major. Keeps costs low and the list churning.

Right seat of a widebody pays more than any regional left seat after 3 years, and the typically better work rules at majors make up the loss of seniority. Add in things like sick time, trip/duty rigs, 401k DC v match, and it really adds up.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:41 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
EssentialPowr wrote:
amcnd wrote:
Exactly. And get involved in training your pushed over 200k a year....


Even at $200k a year one is leaving a lot of cash on the table to stay... Flying with the junior most people in the industry as FOs is a lot of exposure, as is unfortunately working for about any regional. Being at the top of a regional list is not bad, but To each Their own as was said...


When will the armchair commanders realize there is more to life than a pile of cash?


Is an “armchair commander” a wannabe, 3rd party flight sim foamer type?
 
eugdjinn
Posts: 193
Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 5:58 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:05 pm

FLALEFTY you also perpetuate a huge misunderstanding that has been running both inside and outside of ExpressJet. They don't and haven't operated anything like 95 aircraft in a VERY long time. Right now they are flying 23. CommutAir is flying 30 of 36 frames. That makes CommutAir the larger airline. And that's been true since ExpressJet handed the 175SCs to SkyWest. They haven't flown more than 40 EMB145s at any point in the last year or since the sale. And United has had them flying 145s to IGM (Kingman, AZ) for storage or retirement routinely over the course of the last year.
 
User avatar
usxguy
Posts: 1890
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:28 pm

Re: Express jet rumor

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:34 pm

One of my first jobs was with Air Wisconsin years and years ago. I was shocked to see how many "grey hairs" we had flying our BAe 146 fleet. Most of these guys had been there for 20+ years, and said they didn't want to go to United, they loved their schedules and the pay wasn't bad ("plus, it never gets old flying the Aspen shuttle!"). Fast forward and I have friends who are 20+ year DOH at Mesa Air Group and have yet to work a weekend or holiday, and are home EVERY night.

For ExpressJet, they're going to have to find some immediate capital and rights to use 10+ ERJs on a branded operation, or find enough charter business to keep themselves afloat, otherwise their certificate will go up for sale or shut down. There just isn't much demand for CPA (guaranteed revenue) 50 seat flying. The ERJ is the new Jetstream & Beech 1900.
xx
 
IAH901RT
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:06 am

ExpressJet says goodbye

Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:29 pm

ExpressJet announced on Sunday that they will cease flying for UAL after Sept. 30th.
 
User avatar
adamblang
Posts: 1256
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:47 pm

Re: ExpressJet says goodbye

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:04 pm

Here's the requisite link:

https://paxex.aero/2020/08/expressjet-t ... september/

On July 30, United Airlines selected CommutAir as its sole ERJ145 operator, and asked ExpressJet Airlines to wind-down flying as a United Express regional carrier. Due to the uncertainty of airline passenger travel as a result of the continuing pandemic, all ExpressJet flying for United Airlines will end on September 30, 2020. In addition, with the termination of the CARES Act payroll support funding at that time, ExpressJet also will terminate or furlough most of its workforce on September 30, 2020, other than limited staff needed in connection with the wind-down of operations and the review of future business opportunities.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

ExpressJet Shutdown Moved Up to September 30th

Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:44 pm

Sad time, but this was coming eventually, virus or not. Roughly 3,000 laid off nationwide, 1250 in of those in Houston.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... uxbndlbing
 
dalmit
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:25 pm

Re: ExpressJet Shutdown Moved Up to September 30th

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:33 pm

Is this some kind of a data issue with Flightaware.com or are there currently no Expressjet flights flying?

expressjet.jpg
 
ScottB
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: ExpressJet Shutdown Moved Up to September 30th

Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:56 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
Sad time, but this was coming eventually, virus or not. Roughly 3,000 laid off nationwide, 1250 in of those in Houston.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... uxbndlbing


Kind of crazy when you remember that ExpressJet is the successor to two of the largest regional carriers in existence about 15 years ago. ExpressJet had over 250 aircraft at its peak and ASA (which is the source of the EV code and Acey callsign) had over 150 in its fleet at peak.

20 years ago, I doubt anyone would have predicted that tiny Commutair would outlast carriers like Comair, ExpressJet, ASA, or ACA.
 
CaptCoolHand
Posts: 96
Joined: Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:24 pm

Re: ExpressJet Shutdown Moved Up to September 30th

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:02 pm

ScottB wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
Sad time, but this was coming eventually, virus or not. Roughly 3,000 laid off nationwide, 1250 in of those in Houston.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... uxbndlbing


Kind of crazy when you remember that ExpressJet is the successor to two of the largest regional carriers in existence about 15 years ago. ExpressJet had over 250 aircraft at its peak and ASA (which is the source of the EV code and Acey callsign) had over 150 in its fleet at peak.

20 years ago, I doubt anyone would have predicted that tiny Commutair would outlast carriers like Comair, ExpressJet, ASA, or ACA.


XJT had 274 E145 variations. The 275th ended up being a cabin sim after an interesting landing.
When I was hired there in 2005 I was thankful, thinking that if it all went south I could stay there.
I'm glad I made it in and out in short order. It's a sad thing but I don't think those companies were ever built to last.
 
PowerJet
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:17 pm

Re: ExpressJet Shutdown Moved Up to September 30th

Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:09 pm

dalmit wrote:
Is this some kind of a data issue with Flightaware.com or are there currently no Expressjet flights flying?

expressjet.jpg



Im seeing a few. TYS-ICT IAH-TUL IAH-ECP IAH-MEM... ICT, of couse being their final stop and the termination of their career at EV.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: ExpressJet Shutdown Moved Up to September 30th

Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:41 pm

PowerJet wrote:
dalmit wrote:
Is this some kind of a data issue with Flightaware.com or are there currently no Expressjet flights flying?

expressjet.jpg



Im seeing a few. TYS-ICT IAH-TUL IAH-ECP IAH-MEM... ICT, of couse being their final stop and the termination of their career at EV.


ICT is the last stop for return to delivery before going to parking in Kingman.
the ones going to Quebec City and Macon are for C5 conformity work.

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