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Andrw
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US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:38 am

Hello all.
Thought I would share this news. Iran's Mahan Air is reporting several injured pax onboard flight to Beirut after being "intercepted" by USAF F15. The news is alsso all over russian speaking media this morning including TV.
https://www.rt.com/news/495684-iran-pla ... assengers/

Does anyone know if it may be another round of "soft pressure" on iranian aviation? What can Mahan Air do now, in order to seek compensation?

Best

Andrw
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
bennett123
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:46 am

Have the US commented yet.

I don’t speak Farsi, so can’t understand passengers.

However, the F15 didn’t seem to be that close or on a convergent course.
 
Andrw
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:53 am

I heard on Russia 24 that apparently one of the pilots identified himself as an USAF and came as close as 1km within the aircraft causing the A300 to dive in order to avoid collision (sorry, no source is it was a tv). I gues that a jet speeding in front of a pax aircraft is capable of causing turbulence strong enough to cause injuries to pax, no?
Russia24 also reports, that the initial response from USAF is that everything was done safely and according to protocols
Last edited by Andrw on Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
wjcandee
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:01 am

There was already a thread on this, which was shut down because of excessive political comments.

The US commented hours ago as follows: The Mahan Air plane flew somewhere near a military base. Two fighters went up to take a look. One stayed back and one pulled close enough to identify the jet as civilian -- about 1-2 km -- then pulled away. The whole thing was by-the-book and professional, like the many interactions between Western forces and Iran every day. Only rarely is there a real incident, and this wasn't one of them.

As you probably know, Mahan Air is owned by the Iranian gov't, and is sometimes accused by the West of transporting arms and rev guard members on illicit missions. However, that had no effect on how this mission was carried out, because all they were tasked to do was to straight-up identify: civilian-or-military.

In terms of "close", this is how close the F-16s flew when escorting Air Force One into Andrews on 9/11. That's the wingtip of AF1, and that's a DC Air National Guard F-16. No problem.

Image



The aircraft in the Mahan Air story were nowhere near that close, just close enough to see with their own eyes whether it was a civiilan aircraft.
Last edited by wjcandee on Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
Andrw
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:04 am

Yeh, but I'm not about politics and would be happy to stick to aviation. So all politics aside, what can, if anything, Mahan Air do in order to seek compensation? Can they do anything?

Flying wing to wing is not a news. Every good air force pilot can do it.
The other question is, assuming the fighter flew right in front of the aircraft, would it be capable of causing turbulence strong enough to shake the hudge pax aircraft? A case comes to my mind from few years back, in Mexico, hen a learjet followed 767 on approach to MMMX I think and rolled over and crashed in the center of the city below. The final report stated, that (apart from pilots having fake licenses) the crashw as caused by turbulence after 767. But obviously 767 is not f15?

Best
Andrw
 
bennett123
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:16 am

Based purely on the evidence so far, not a lot.

Hard to see that the US did anything wrong.

Is there any evidence that evasive manoeuvring was required.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:22 am

Here's some onboard footage from the Mahan Air aircraft after the intercept. A lot of panic onboard. Whether it's from seeing the fighter jets out their windows or evasive maneuvers from the Mahan Air pilots is unknown:

https://twitter.com/PressTV/status/1286521747085438976

EDIT:

Extended Video footage taken after the incident. Looks like a lot of damage and injuries onboard. Footage of the intercepting fighter as well. Hard to judge the situation given only a brief glimpse of the jet is shown out one of the windows:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEYO1k4zbsQ
Last edited by sierrakilo44 on Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anshabhi
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:27 am

Why was it intercepted in first place?
 
bennett123
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:31 am

I think that the OP referred to a US base in the area.
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:42 am

bennett123 wrote:
Based purely on the evidence so far, not a lot.

Hard to see that the US did anything wrong.

Is there any evidence that evasive manoeuvring was required.


There's very scant information on the incident beyond some brief statements.

But put yourselves in the Mahan Air pilot's shoes. (What follows is NOT an intended political comment, just an explanation of the possible mindset of a Mahan Air pilot flying in that airspace)

They just had a senior Iranian leader killed in a US Airstrike, a US Airstrike on Iranian territory was minutes from being conducted in June last year, they know that previous incidents between Iranian civilian airliners and US military forces have resulted in Iranian civilian aircraft being shot down. It's no secret tensions between the two nations are high. There is every reason for them to conclude the sudden appearance of US military forces on the scene may have had more sinister intentions than a supposed visual identification, or the fighters may have misidentified them (ala Iranair 655). It wasn't overreacting or panic, for them it may have been actions they believed necessary for the safety of their flight, and they maneuvered away from the fighters as best they could in their Airbus.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:45 am

Will TCAS be activated in this kind of situation when scrambled fighter jets come this close?
 
bennett123
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:52 am

Sierrakilo44

Problem is that making evasive manoeuvres could lead to closer inspection.

Consider if a cop car was coming up the street and you suddenly took unnecessary action to avoid him.
He is likely to think that you merit a closer look.

It is not as if an A300 can evade an F15.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:25 am

wjcandee wrote:
There was already a thread on this, which was shut down because of excessive political comments.

The US commented hours ago as follows: The Mahan Air plane flew somewhere near a military base. Two fighters went up to take a look. One stayed back and one pulled close enough to identify the jet as civilian -- about 1-2 km -- then pulled away. The whole thing was by-the-book and professional, like the many interactions between Western forces and Iran every day. Only rarely is there a real incident, and this wasn't one of them.

As you probably know, Mahan Air is owned by the Iranian gov't, and is sometimes accused by the West of transporting arms and rev guard members on illicit missions. However, that had no effect on how this mission was carried out, because all they were tasked to do was to straight-up identify: civilian-or-military.

In terms of "close", this is how close the F-16s flew when escorting Air Force One into Andrews on 9/11. That's the wingtip of AF1, and that's a DC Air National Guard F-16. No problem.

Image



The aircraft in the Mahan Air story were nowhere near that close, just close enough to see with their own eyes whether it was a civiilan aircraft.


Give the US military access to FR24 and ATC feed and they will know who is flying! A lot of airways worldwide pass over or close by military installations. Even in the US.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:36 am

bennett123 wrote:
Based purely on the evidence so far, not a lot.

Hard to see that the US did anything wrong.

Is there any evidence that evasive manoeuvring was required.


Is there evidence it wasn’t required? In this kind of events I do take official statements from both sides with a grain of salt.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:56 am

The damage to the airplane and its occupants was inflicted by its own pilot who decided to perform rather extreme maneuvers that no airliner is design to be subjected to.

Whether they had to perform these maneuvers, I don't know. I personally can't see why unless the fighters were about to collide with the airplane, but I very much doubt that this would have been the case. As per the statement, the fighters came within 1 km, which is not very close for a civilian interception.

The procedure, when being intercepted, is to try to establish contact with the intercepting aircraft and follow instructions. Going for energetic evasive maneuvers is dangerous unless there is an imminent collision impact, and pointless as there is no way an airliner could evade a fighter anyway. Not to mention that this would make the interceptor even more suspicious of your intent...
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airhansa
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:59 am

I feel that the airline pilot may have gotten scared by the presence of a fighter jet in general. I'm not sure whether its possible to identify the national origin of a fighter jet from the cockpit. Not the fault of the US military though.
 
bennett123
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:03 am

The only image the fighter seems to be some distance away.

So far, I have seen no evidence to the contrary.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:13 am

FR24 data shows a sudden climb from 34,000ft 34,600ft then descent back to 34,000ft over around a five minute period 1610-1615 UTC approx.

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 5701107712
 
Redd
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:19 am

bennett123 wrote:
Based purely on the evidence so far, not a lot.

Hard to see that the US did anything wrong.

Is there any evidence that evasive manoeuvring was required.


Unless the USAF jet caused TCAS to go off in the A300. Which is most likely the case, and would explain the sudden manoeuvring the Mahan Air A300 had to do.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:39 am

Did the US military first try to contact the airliner by radio ?

Let's not forget a civilian airliner was shot down in Iran this year, too. Yes, it was by Iran itself, but in the context of high tensions with the US, so a civilian pilot thinking there are trigger happy people around can be understood.
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:54 am

Redd wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Based purely on the evidence so far, not a lot.

Hard to see that the US did anything wrong.

Is there any evidence that evasive manoeuvring was required.


Unless the USAF jet caused TCAS to go off in the A300. Which is most likely the case, and would explain the sudden manoeuvring the Mahan Air A300 had to do.


TCAS alert? I highly doubt the F-15s had their transponders on during the intercept.
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:07 am

Sounds more like panic on the part of the Mahan pilots more so than any rules of engagement violation.
 
Andrw
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:22 am

I guess we will be forced to believe one side of the story or the other untill some official investigation will be launched. I'm just wondering about that altitude change JanEejit mentioned earlier. 600ft isn't much in a space of 5min, even asuming they climbed 600ft within 2.5min (that gives less than 300ft/min) and I doubt that would cause any injuries, even with pax seat belts off.

As far as my knowledge goes, military aircrafts seldom have their transponders on, even when flying over Europe.
 
mxaxai
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:26 am

Andrw wrote:
As far as my knowledge goes, military aircrafts seldom have their transponders on, even when flying over Europe.

Wouldn't this trigger a TCAS alert if the fighter jet is on an intercept course?
 
GlobalMoose
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:35 am

For background -

https://www.icao.int/Meetings/anconf12/Document%20Archive/an02_cons%5B1%5D.pdf - this is the ICAO "Rules of the Air, Annex 2," it covers air interception.

https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2015/media/Intercept-Procedures.pdf - this is FAA's "what happens during intercepts" (I know, FAA vs ICAO, but it has nice pictures for us pilots).

Not sure what happened here. An air intercept does not require any aggressive maneuvering on the part of the intercepted aircraft.

Furthermore, TCAS II (when activated) doesn't call for a 2 G pitch up/down... Reference Table 5 in the linked FAA TCAS booklet (below), going about Mach 0.8 would only require a 2 degree pitch to respond to the RA (IF, as a previous poster had mentioned, the F-15 had their transponder on).

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/advisory_circular/tcas%20ii%20v7.1%20intro%20booklet.pdf - FAA TCAS II booklet.
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:42 am

The aircraft, EP-MNF is an A310-300, not A300.
 
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garpd
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:44 am

Seems to me like the pilot of that A300 is quick to panic and impulsive. A combination that is not very desirable for airline pilots and one that has killed before (most recently the Atlas Air 767 crash in Texas). They need re-training.

Also, it is well known that one should keep the seatbelt fastened even when in flight. Any injuries are the result of ignorance and the pilot's inability to keep calm.
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:30 pm

Andrw wrote:
I guess we will be forced to believe one side of the story or the other untill some official investigation will be launched. I'm just wondering about that altitude change JanEejit mentioned earlier. 600ft isn't much in a space of 5min, even asuming they climbed 600ft within 2.5min (that gives less than 300ft/min) and I doubt that would cause any injuries, even with pax seat belts off.

As far as my knowledge goes, military aircrafts seldom have their transponders on, even when flying over Europe.


Military aircraft tend to use "Mode 5" transponders quite often. Effectively the same as "Mode S" that is cryptographically secured, so it won't show up unless you have the correct cyptography codes.

So chances are in the case, the A300 wouldn't have had a TCAS alert.
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:46 pm

A correct tcas response is a measured climb, descent, or stay level. Not a maneuver that will cause damage or high “g”. My understanding is that intercepting a/c turn off transponders as they near.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:55 pm

Reading the comments of both sides, I think this is a case of Iranian pilots overreacting to a situation which they did not. expect. I do not think the USAF pilots deliberately wanted to bring the Iranian jet in trouble. Syrian airspace is a contested area and everyone should keep its cool in that situation and nobody gets hurt.
We can debate all day long if the Americans should be there or even have a right to be there but in all pragmatic way of doing things, Americans are there and the operational side of the Iranian airline should take that into account.
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bennett123
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:56 pm

Is there any evidence that they were confronted or ordered to pull over.

As for the bit about an unmarked car.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:35 pm

Andrw wrote:
I guess we will be forced to believe one side of the story or the other untill some official investigation will be launched. I'm just wondering about that altitude change JanEejit mentioned earlier. 600ft isn't much in a space of 5min, even asuming they climbed 600ft within 2.5min (that gives less than 300ft/min) and I doubt that would cause any injuries, even with pax seat belts off.

As far as my knowledge goes, military aircrafts seldom have their transponders on, even when flying over Europe.


And you’re wrong, in civil airspace military traffic do have transponders on for ATC. They may or may not be shown on apps. During an intercept, procedure is to turn off Mode3/A to avoid causing TCAS R/A responses.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:26 pm

marcelh wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Based purely on the evidence so far, not a lot.

Hard to see that the US did anything wrong.

Is there any evidence that evasive manoeuvring was required.


Is there evidence it wasn’t required? In this kind of events I do take official statements from both sides with a grain of salt.


I don’t want to appear to condone anything, but the evidence that maneuvering wasn’t required is just physics, and procedure. Physics dictate that a transport category aircraft has a very limited flight envelope, and is too large to maneuver effectively relative to an F-15. Intercept procedures also do not mention any type of aggressive maneuver. You’d have to be a dumbass to do what is described.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:55 pm

JannEejit wrote:
FR24 data shows a sudden climb from 34,000ft 34,600ft then descent back to 34,000ft over around a five minute period 1610-1615 UTC approx.

https://twitter.com/flightradar24/statu ... 5701107712


According to the FR24 data, at 16:13 UTC they made a sudden dive from 34,000 to 33,875 and back up again to 34,350 within one minute. This happened exactly when they crossed the border between Iraq and Syria.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#250431a3

Until we know why the pilot made the reaction, we really don't know what happened.

Possibilities:

1. Staged event. - For this to happen, Mahan Air must have known fighter jets would be scrambled over this area.
2. Overreaction by the Mahan Air pilots - Could be possible if TCAS warnings were triggered.
3. U.S. F-15 jets flew far closer to the plane than what the official story says.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:42 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Have the US commented yet.

I don’t speak Farsi, so can’t understand passengers.

.


I do. The correct English term for the "Farsi" language is Persian. One does"t say "I don't speak Espanol or Deutsch". They are Spanish and German.

As far as safety of flight (purely factual and NOT focusing on the geopolitical reasons): many of the main players in the region have horrible histories of downing of commercial aircraft. Some are recent (PS752, MH 17), some are now remote (KL7, LN 114). Sadly, the latter two were despite visual identification of the civilian aircraft by fighters. Both commercial aircraft were tens to hundreds of kilometers off course, though

I am glad that the Americans sent fighter aircraft to visually inspect and verify the identity of the commercial aircraft. Minor injuries, or not, it is far better than a possible shoot down.

Unless the Iranians decide to release the CVR and FDR data and the multiple military forces release their comm and radar data, we will be left in the dark.
Last edited by a300 on Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bennett123
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:54 pm

a300

So what are they saying...
 
a300
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:11 pm

The background audio during the F15 breaking off is not clear. The guy with face shield states: {We are on board the Mahan flight, Tehran to Beirut and in the Syrian space were approached by a fighter aircraft. The Mahan Air pilot decrease altitude to avoid collision]. The injured man sitting by a window says that a fighter aircraft came along side and the turbulence upset the passenger aircraft and his head hit the panels above".
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a300
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:24 pm

wjcandee wrote:

In terms of "close", this is how close the F-16s flew when escorting Air Force One into Andrews on 9/11. That's the wingtip of AF1, and that's a DC Air National Guard F-16. No problem.



The aircraft in the Mahan Air story were nowhere near that close, just close enough to see with their own eyes whether it was a civiilan aircraft.


The difference being that the VC25 pilots are EXPECTING a fighter on their wingtip. This was not the same with the EP-MNF pilots. I don't know whether the USAF aircraft announced itself or not. If the Mahan pilots indeed had identified the unknown aircraft as an F15 type, they might have been even more freaked out. The main operator of the type over the Levant is IDF-AF.

I truly hope that the CVR, FDR and comm data are released. With the numerous obvious injuries onboard, this is either a serious incident or an accident by ICAO standards. Both the Iranians and the Syrians could initiate the investigation. It almost certainly will be Iran's CAO-AIB. The chances of NTSB participating is almost nil. Iranian CAO-AIB has not been shy of calling out poor airmanship by Mahan pilots. There in fact is report on their site about a serious incident that an A300 was subjected massive G fluctuation on a domestic flight. Or when a BAE-146 overran the runway at Kharg. Since in both cases foreign investigators were involved (BAE of France in the Airbus case, UK-AAIB in the other), the full reports are in English.

https://www.cao.ir/web/accidents/reports
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bennett123
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:02 pm

So one is saying altitude reduced to avoid Collision. The other that the approach of the F15 caused turbulence.

Both would require the F15 to have come a lot closer than the image on the OP suggests.

The first video shows the F15 turning away, (apparently on dry thrust). Also not sure what the first passenger had cut his head on.

The second video with a lot of turbulence, does not show any sign of the F15.
 
a300
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:17 pm

I agree. Nothing clearly seen in the videos and still photos show that fighter was dangerously close. From both the published scientific literature and my own professional experience, I know that eyewitness are generally anything but.

Another possibility I thought of (which can be easily proven or disproven by the CVR), is if an air defense unit with coverage of the region (Iraqi, Russian or Syrian) warned the commercial aircraft of incoming fighters.
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SA280
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:19 pm

Why the interception in the first place?

I would be really concerned if USAF did it against a civilian aircraft without any reason.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:26 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Based purely on the evidence so far, not a lot.

Hard to see that the US did anything wrong.

Is there any evidence that evasive manoeuvring was required.


There's very scant information on the incident beyond some brief statements.

But put yourselves in the Mahan Air pilot's shoes. (What follows is NOT an intended political comment, just an explanation of the possible mindset of a Mahan Air pilot flying in that airspace)

They just had a senior Iranian leader killed in a US Airstrike, a US Airstrike on Iranian territory was minutes from being conducted in June last year, they know that previous incidents between Iranian civilian airliners and US military forces have resulted in Iranian civilian aircraft being shot down. It's no secret tensions between the two nations are high. There is every reason for them to conclude the sudden appearance of US military forces on the scene may have had more sinister intentions than a supposed visual identification, or the fighters may have misidentified them (ala Iranair 655). It wasn't overreacting or panic, for them it may have been actions they believed necessary for the safety of their flight, and they maneuvered away from the fighters as best they could in their Airbus.


If a military plane was going to do anything "sinister," taking evasive maneuvers in an A300 isn't going to accomplish anything.
 
Redd
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:29 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
Redd wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Based purely on the evidence so far, not a lot.

Hard to see that the US did anything wrong.

Is there any evidence that evasive manoeuvring was required.


Unless the USAF jet caused TCAS to go off in the A300. Which is most likely the case, and would explain the sudden manoeuvring the Mahan Air A300 had to do.


TCAS alert? I highly doubt the F-15s had their transponders on during the intercept.


I've heard that military aircraft have to have their Transponders on when transiting civilian airways unless they're at war. I''m not 100% sure though, so maybe someone more knowledgable will chime in.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:48 pm

It's good to see that this has thus far been a productive discussion, and has largely avoided political commentary. Well done. I hope that it stays that way. We realize that discussions like this can become contentious, but please remember that we're all here for the same purpose, and that's to discuss aviation.

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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:08 pm

Other theory. What if the Mahan pilot thought it's an incoming missile. I mean, blue sky, strong sun light, a shining metal dot far away with a rocket streak behind it. With such an idea in the mind of a pilot (missile), wouldn't he try to do evasive maneouvering even if the 'object' seems still to be very far away? I guess the Iranian pilots today are more scared from SAM's than seeing fighter jets flying close to them... .
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:36 pm

Mahan flight crew could've panicked momentarily sending the plane into a sudden maneuver. Saying this was a deliberate act by the U.S. pilot is pure nonsense.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:38 pm

I’d be very surprised if the fighter jets weren’t announcing themselves on 121.5 guard frequency.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:50 pm

dc863 wrote:
Mahan flight crew could've panicked momentarily sending the plane into a sudden maneuver. Saying this was a deliberate act by the U.S. pilot is pure nonsense.


Possibly. Probably. We don't know "sense" or "non-sense" until all the data are in and fully analyzed. Assuming anything prior to details of an investigation are in is, in fact, the "nonsense". This applies whether it is aviation, industrial or medical.
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:57 pm

32andBelow wrote:
I’d be very surprised if the fighter jets weren’t announcing themselves on 121.5 guard frequency.


Quite likely. CVR will tell. And of course the USAF comms records, if they choose to release them. The may very well do it to show that all was done correctly.

Last time there was an encounter between the US military and an Iranian civil aircraft that I know of (IR655), the warnings on the guard frequency were such that the Iran Air pilots could not clearly tell that it was specifically meant them for them (e.g., "Iranian F-14", "Iranian military aircraft", etc.). It is likely that the American pilot (or for that matter the Mahan crew), was not even born in 1988 and might not know the history. We all know what Mark Twain said about history.
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Fri Jul 24, 2020 11:03 pm

Good grief, I barely know where to start.... :banghead:
wjcandee wrote:
In terms of "close", this is how close the F-16s flew when escorting Air Force One into Andrews on 9/11. That's the wingtip of AF1, and that's a DC Air National Guard F-16. No problem.
Yeah, when it's pre-arranged, and one of your own team. No problem.
Care to explain how it would have gone if it had been a Cuban Mig-23, showing up unannounced, just taking a peek? :roll:

Andrw wrote:
The other question is, assuming the fighter flew right in front of the aircraft, would it be capable of causing turbulence strong enough to shake the hudge pax aircraft? A case comes to my mind from few years back, in Mexico, hen a learjet followed 767 on approach to MMMX I think and rolled over and crashed in the center of the city below. The final report stated, that (apart from pilots having fake licenses) the crashw as caused by turbulence after 767. But obviously 767 is not f15?
In Mexico it was a large aircraft creating turbulence for a small aircraft; here we have a small aircraft versus a large aircraft. You should think more in terms of a fly hitting your windscreen.
Or a Chinese J-8 fighter actually colliding with a USN P-3 Orion. [spolier alert - the Chinese pilot died, the USN crew survived]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

32andBelow wrote:
I’d be very surprised if the fighter jets weren’t announcing themselves on 121.5 guard frequency.
Your certainty is telling, but yeah I'll agree that's possible
a300 wrote:
Last time there was an encounter between the US military and an Iranian civil aircraft that I know of (IR655), the warnings on the guard frequency were such that the Iran Air pilots could not clearly tell that it was specifically meant them for them (e.g., "Iranian F-14", "Iranian military aircraft", etc.)
Exactly!
On the other hand, if they had access to FR24, they probably could have addressed it as "Mahan Air 1152". I would like to think that is what happened, but part of me fears FR24 is not on USAF's radar. (pun intended)

various sources wrote:
...the fighters came within 1 km
So, how close did they actually come? Here's a clue; I'm just off to the kitchen to get myself a bite to eat but I shouldn't be too long because it is "within 1km". :banghead:
airhansa wrote:
I feel that the airline pilot may have gotten scared by the presence of a fighter jet in general. I'm not sure whether its possible to identify the national origin of a fighter jet from the [A310] cockpit
Hell, we're all a.nutters here - some of you must have visited an actual airport or airfield at some time, so y'all realize you can probably identify an A310 easily from 1km away, but an F-15 is just a small grey smudge at that range, and it could be USAF or it could be IDFAF or it could be from Mars.
Ok, so as it happens I can usually identify an F-15 from 2-3km with just my Mk.1 eyeballs, but that is because I see them every day and am expecting to see them. If somebody sneaked an F-18 or a Mig-29 into the airspace near me, I'd take more than a few moments to identify it as any different, and I'd definitely need binoculars to tell you who it belonged to.


Anyways, here's one out of left-field (totally in keeping with much of this thread); maybe the Mahan Air pilots were ex-military (PIA I'm looking at you) and just forgot they were in a 250,000 lb airliner. Reflexes are a terrible thing.
Nothing to see here; move along please.

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