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SGAviation
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:14 am

Can the thread title be changed to reflect the correct aircraft type; A310?
 
wjcandee
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:26 am

Sheikh: AF1 didn't know that the F16s were friendly until they were very close. All they knew was that there were some "fast movers" approaching. Intelligence had picked up chatter that "Angel was next." Angel was the mostly-secret code word for AF1 at the time. Threats could have been anywhere in a well-planned decapitation attack. Col. Tillman, the AF1 captain under Bush, thought that maybe this was how they were going to be "got" -- perhaps rogue American pilots or rogue "friendlies" in training. Ultimately, the F16s, which were only told to go escort an aircraft, not knowing what aircraft it was until they saw it (to keep down intelligence info dispersal), checked in.

(Barksdale didn't even know they were coming. When they were told that an aircraft was coming that wanted 150,000 lbs of fuel, 40 gallons of coffee, and 70 box lunches, they had an idea, but that was only a couple of minutes before AF1 arrived. Secure communication options were massively-upgraded on AF1 after 9/11.)

What servicepeople did that day to protect the country and the President when he was demanding to return to DC is an interesting story.

As to reflexes, I think that it is highly-likely that Mahan employs military and/or ex-military pilots. It's fundamentally an arm of the rep guard.
 
a300
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:05 am

wjcandee wrote:
Sheikh: AF1 didn't know that the F16s were friendly until they were very close. All they knew was that there were some "fast movers" approaching. Intelligence had picked up chatter that "Angel was next." Angel was the mostly-secret code word for AF1 at the time. Threats could have been anywhere in a well-planned decapitation attack. Col. Tillman, the AF1 captain under Bush, thought that maybe this was how they were going to be "got" -- perhaps rogue American pilots or rogue "friendlies" in training. Ultimately, the F16s, which were only told to go escort an aircraft, not knowing what aircraft it was until they saw it (to keep down intelligence info dispersal), checked in.

(Barksdale didn't even know they were coming. When they were told that an aircraft was coming that wanted 150,000 lbs of fuel, 40 gallons of coffee, and 70 box lunches, they had an idea, but that was only a couple of minutes before AF1 arrived. Secure communication options were massively-upgraded on AF1 after 9/11.)

What servicepeople did that day to protect the country and the President when he was demanding to return to DC is an interesting story.

As to reflexes, I think that it is highly-likely that Mahan employs military and/or ex-military pilots. It's fundamentally an arm of the rep guard.


They are not. The IRGC-AFS is not really a flying outfit. Until recently they had only bunch of Tucanos and ancient Sukhois. The standard air force and army aviation pilots usually end up with Iran Air. The latter is state owned. The ex-military pilots can collect more government pension by remaining public employees. Mahan, IRGC-controlled or not, is not a state company.
Last edited by a300 on Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:24 am

SGAviation wrote:
Can the thread title be changed to reflect the correct aircraft type; A310?

It's been updated. In the future, please report the thread starting post to request a title change — there's no guarantee that we'll see requests like this. In fact, it's fairly unlikely that we will.

-----------

Please try to keep the thread on topic. While past intercepts are somewhat relevant, let's please try to discuss the current event.

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Waterbomber2
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:35 am

The F-15's could have done a subtle check without the A310 pilots knowing.
Just approach from outside the field of vision, check what you need to check and return to base, no need to buzz 'em.

Most likely they buzzed the cockpit and the Mahan Air pilots took evasive action to maintain separation.

The turbulence theory is also possible, a F-15 is not a small machine and it spews a lot of fire.
If close enough it can upset an A310 for sure.
 
jordanh
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:36 am

wjcandee wrote:
The US commented hours ago as follows: The Mahan Air plane flew somewhere near a military base. Two fighters went up to take a look. One stayed back and one pulled close enough to identify the jet as civilian -- about 1-2 km -- then pulled away. The whole thing was by-the-book and professional, like the many interactions between Western forces and Iran every day. Only rarely is there a real incident, and this wasn't one of them.


sierrakilo44 wrote:
Extended Video footage taken after the incident. Looks like a lot of damage and injuries onboard. Footage of the intercepting fighter as well. Hard to judge the situation given only a brief glimpse of the jet is shown out one of the windows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEYO1k4zbsQ


I cannot debate whether or not the Mahan Air pilot overreacted - the responsibility of sitting in the left chair demands doing whatever he deems necessary to protect his passengers - but that video footage makes it undeniably clear that the fighter plane was much, much closer than "about 1-2 km".
 
a300
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:54 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:

The turbulence theory is also possible, a F-15 is not a small machine and it spews a lot of fire.
If close enough it can upset an A310 for sure.


Absolutely. the F-15 has 2 PW F100 engines, each of them with 106 kN of trust. These engines have more thrust than the PW ones on the 727 and the 737 original!
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32andBelow
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:06 am

Can we talk about the people wearing life jackets. At the end of the day something happened that got the attention of the us military. They went up and positively identified it before just shooting it down. The whole situation seems like it was ha died relatively well. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Mahan pilots were former military so they tried evasive actions which were unsuccessful (obviously)
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:15 am

Andrw wrote:
I guess we will be forced to believe one side of the story or the other untill some official investigation will be launched. I'm just wondering about that altitude change JanEejit mentioned earlier. 600ft isn't much in a space of 5min, even asuming they climbed 600ft within 2.5min (that gives less than 300ft/min) and I doubt that would cause any injuries, even with pax seat belts off.

As far as my knowledge goes, military aircrafts seldom have their transponders on, even when flying over Europe.



Ha...no one would even notice 300fpm climb. When on the North Atlantic tracks and I switch Flight levels I use 500fpm vertical speed on the autopilot and you don’t even notice...no one does...... Not even the pilots in back at rest or in the Loo when they get back.... Not noticeable...
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Antarius
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:10 am

a300 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

The turbulence theory is also possible, a F-15 is not a small machine and it spews a lot of fire.
If close enough it can upset an A310 for sure.


Absolutely. the F-15 has 2 PW F100 engines, each of them with 106 kN of trust. These engines have more thrust than the PW ones on the 727 and the 737 original!


Sure, but what evidence is there for any of this? The altitude changes from what we can tell were fairly minimal. So how would an F15 buzz a A310 sufficiently to upset it but only cause limited altitude changes and no other known damage?

I'm not sure why were hunting for odd explanations. I mean, it's also possible that aliens were involved too. Not sure what value we get out of this.
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32andBelow
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:14 am

Antarius wrote:
a300 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

The turbulence theory is also possible, a F-15 is not a small machine and it spews a lot of fire.
If close enough it can upset an A310 for sure.


Absolutely. the F-15 has 2 PW F100 engines, each of them with 106 kN of trust. These engines have more thrust than the PW ones on the 727 and the 737 original!


Sure, but what evidence is there for any of this? The altitude changes from what we can tell were fairly minimal. So how would an F15 buzz a A310 sufficiently to upset it but only cause limited altitude changes and no other known damage?

I'm not sure why were hunting for odd explanations. I mean, it's also possible that aliens were involved too. Not sure what value we get out of this.

The pilots would have had to put it in a steep dive and maybe turn to get this much disruption.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:25 am

32andBelow wrote:
Antarius wrote:
a300 wrote:

Absolutely. the F-15 has 2 PW F100 engines, each of them with 106 kN of trust. These engines have more thrust than the PW ones on the 727 and the 737 original!


Sure, but what evidence is there for any of this? The altitude changes from what we can tell were fairly minimal. So how would an F15 buzz a A310 sufficiently to upset it but only cause limited altitude changes and no other known damage?

I'm not sure why were hunting for odd explanations. I mean, it's also possible that aliens were involved too. Not sure what value we get out of this.

The pilots would have had to put it in a steep dive and maybe turn to get this much disruption.


Which isn't represented on FR24 data. And reports from the airport Indicate minor injuries.

So I'm not sure what data we have so far corroborates the theories that the F15 caused some crazy dive or buzzed the aircraft.
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:28 am

Antarius wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Sure, but what evidence is there for any of this? The altitude changes from what we can tell were fairly minimal. So how would an F15 buzz a A310 sufficiently to upset it but only cause limited altitude changes and no other known damage?

I'm not sure why were hunting for odd explanations. I mean, it's also possible that aliens were involved too. Not sure what value we get out of this.

The pilots would have had to put it in a steep dive and maybe turn to get this much disruption.


Which isn't represented on FR24 data. And reports from the airport Indicate minor injuries.

So I'm not sure what data we have so far corroborates the theories that the F15 caused some crazy dive or buzzed the aircraft.

Are we really trusting the fr24 data over Syria? How do we even know they were shook up. I think they were screaming because of the fighter jet.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:32 am

Amazing how one grainy video of what appears to be an f15 a pretty good distance away somehow leads to the conclusion that the cockpit was buzzed.

The captain is responsible for his ship, so if he felt the need to evade...the repercussions are also on him.

But in the end, It's an a310. If there was an authentic threat, it wouldn't stand a chance. You're as likely to dodge a torpedo in a cruise ship as you are to evade an F15 with an a310
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:46 am

A fighter jet intercepting at high relative speed, ie buzzing, can be a very intimidating experience.

That reminds me of this clip of the Skyfighters movie:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9gZYE-a-t7A
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:27 am

32andBelow wrote:
Antarius wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The pilots would have had to put it in a steep dive and maybe turn to get this much disruption.


Which isn't represented on FR24 data. And reports from the airport Indicate minor injuries.

So I'm not sure what data we have so far corroborates the theories that the F15 caused some crazy dive or buzzed the aircraft.

Are we really trusting the fr24 data over Syria? How do we even know they were shook up. I think they were screaming because of the fighter jet.


Its the only data we have. Otherwise all we know is US F15s intercepted an a310. All parties landed safely.

That's it. They probably were screaming due to the jet, but the only evidence we have of that is a cell phone video of it being in the distance.
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Antarius
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:30 am

Waterbomber2 wrote:
A fighter jet intercepting at high relative speed, ie buzzing, can be a very intimidating experience.

That reminds me of this clip of the Skyfighters movie:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9gZYE-a-t7A


I'm sure it is. As are hijackers, aliens and snakes on a plane. Cargo fire, the list goes on.

I'm not trying to be flippant, but what evidence do you have that this happened?
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:06 am

So let’s stick to aviation here and keep politics out. As this happened in Syrian airspace, how did the US government get their rights for the overflight of Syrien territory? Are those rights granted by the civil aviation authorities of Syria or by their military?

What would happen, just hypothetically, if a Russian jet identifies a US civilian airliner over Ukraine and would have NO permission for doing so?

Just asking...
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:17 am

jordanh wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
The US commented hours ago as follows: The Mahan Air plane flew somewhere near a military base. Two fighters went up to take a look. One stayed back and one pulled close enough to identify the jet as civilian -- about 1-2 km -- then pulled away. The whole thing was by-the-book and professional, like the many interactions between Western forces and Iran every day. Only rarely is there a real incident, and this wasn't one of them.


sierrakilo44 wrote:
Extended Video footage taken after the incident. Looks like a lot of damage and injuries onboard. Footage of the intercepting fighter as well. Hard to judge the situation given only a brief glimpse of the jet is shown out one of the windows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEYO1k4zbsQ


I cannot debate whether or not the Mahan Air pilot overreacted - the responsibility of sitting in the left chair demands doing whatever he deems necessary to protect his passengers - but that video footage makes it undeniably clear that the fighter plane was much, much closer than "about 1-2 km".


If it was Syrian airspace, then the captain must assume that this aircraft is there for a war purpose, because no nation that operates F-15 is allowed to enter Syrian airspace. So the question the pilot asked himself and what the whole world should ask itself: what does a US F-15 do over Syria?

And if the free world comes to the conclusion that everything is cool the way it is and the Iranian pilot just don’t know how to play chicken, then wait until uprising powers claim the same “everything is cool” for them.

Are there any NOTAMS of US aircraft operating there?
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:33 am

jordanh wrote:
that video footage makes it undeniably clear that the fighter plane was much, much closer than "about 1-2 km".


We'll have to agree to disagree. That's at least 1km away in the video.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:45 am

Ty134A wrote:
So let’s stick to aviation here and keep politics out. As this happened in Syrian airspace, how did the US government get their rights for the overflight of Syrien territory? Are those rights granted by the civil aviation authorities of Syria or by their military?

What would happen, just hypothetically, if a Russian jet identifies a US civilian airliner over Ukraine and would have NO permission for doing so?

Just asking...


Ty, I'm not here to pontificate on what's happening in Syria, but if you do a little sleuthing, you'll read about a little caliphate that some dudes succeeded in forming and maintaining for a while. You might remember something about beheadings and genocide and stuff, all of which caught the attention of some folks from the US and from that country led by Vlad, and some others, for different reasons, and both got involved and smushed the caliphate from different directions.

There was a whole lot of coordinating of air power among folks from different (even disagreeing) groups. If the Russians were going to do something, they often let the US know, and vice-versa.

Suffice it to say that it's not a fair comparison to a country with hardened borders and a strong central government.

Anybody flying over Syria is well aware of what the general emplacements are, even as they have shifted around for about a decade.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:40 am

Antarius wrote:
a300 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

The turbulence theory is also possible, a F-15 is not a small machine and it spews a lot of fire.
If close enough it can upset an A310 for sure.


Absolutely. the F-15 has 2 PW F100 engines, each of them with 106 kN of trust. These engines have more thrust than the PW ones on the 727 and the 737 original!


Sure, but what evidence is there for any of this? The altitude changes from what we can tell were fairly minimal. So how would an F15 buzz a A310 sufficiently to upset it but only cause limited altitude changes and no other known damage?

I'm not sure why were hunting for odd explanations. I mean, it's also possible that aliens were involved too. Not sure what value we get out of this.


Could the injuries depicted not simply be caused by unrestrained passengers impacting overhead panels or lavatory doors etc whilst the aircraft entered turbulent air ? God knows we've seen worse in similar circumstances.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:51 am

As of this moment, 1049 UTC 25/07/20, there's two Qatar aircraft, QR417 an A359 BEY-DOH and QR316, an A320 AYT-DOH, that have just overflown Syria very close to al Tanf. By my estimate it looks as if both aircraft flew about 5-7nm north/east of al Tanf, and the closest Mahan Air got to al Tanf was 5nm, so these aircraft were in a similar position.

Whilst this airspace is seldom frequented by civil traffic, this can't be the first time airliners have flown close to that airbase. The USAF must've had awareness of transiting civilian traffic, but seemingly ones from Qatar aren't being intercepted, and the nationality of the aircraft may have been a factor in the decision to order the intercept.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:28 am

I am watching the video again and again and I cannot recognize the shape of the F-15. Am I the only one ?
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:45 am

Alsatian wrote:
I am watching the video again and again and I cannot recognize the shape of the F-15. Am I the only one ?

Sorry, but video are you watching and in which video quality? 1080p? But even in lowest quality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEYO1k4zbsQ
At 32 seconds and yes, it is a F-15 and I have no problems to identify it. Of course, I can neither identify the F-15 version nor the nationality, but I can easily identify the shape of the F-15.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:21 pm

T4thH wrote:
Alsatian wrote:
I am watching the video again and again and I cannot recognize the shape of the F-15. Am I the only one ?

Sorry, but video are you watching and in which video quality? 1080p? But even in lowest quality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEYO1k4zbsQ
At 32 seconds and yes, it is a F-15 and I have no problems to identify it. Of course, I can neither identify the F-15 version nor the nationality, but I can easily identify the shape of the F-15.


My bad indeed. Thank you for the link !
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:32 pm

sierrakilo44 wrote:
As of this moment, 1049 UTC 25/07/20, there's two Qatar aircraft, QR417 an A359 BEY-DOH and QR316, an A320 AYT-DOH, that have just overflown Syria very close to al Tanf. By my estimate it looks as if both aircraft flew about 5-7nm north/east of al Tanf, and the closest Mahan Air got to al Tanf was 5nm, so these aircraft were in a similar position.

Whilst this airspace is seldom frequented by civil traffic, this can't be the first time airliners have flown close to that airbase. The USAF must've had awareness of transiting civilian traffic, but seemingly ones from Qatar aren't being intercepted, and the nationality of the aircraft may have been a factor in the decision to order the intercept.


I wonder if QR is communicating about their flight plans with someone in Syria (maybe not the US directly) and Mahan isn’t?
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:45 pm

a300 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

The turbulence theory is also possible, a F-15 is not a small machine and it spews a lot of fire.
If close enough it can upset an A310 for sure.


Absolutely. the F-15 has 2 PW F100 engines, each of them with 106 kN of trust. These engines have more thrust than the PW ones on the 727 and the 737 original!


How much formation time do you two have? The ONLY way an F-15 might create a wake encounter for any other plane would be to position themselves in FRONT and slightly ABOVE the A310. And, with the large difference in wingspans and in cruise flight, it is highly unlikely than a fighter so positioned would do little more than bump the airliner.

Thrust has nearly zero to do with wake, it’s about the flow coming off the wing, esp the tips.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:56 pm

Antarius wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
A fighter jet intercepting at high relative speed, ie buzzing, can be a very intimidating experience.

That reminds me of this clip of the Skyfighters movie:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9gZYE-a-t7A


I'm sure it is. As are hijackers, aliens and snakes on a plane. Cargo fire, the list goes on.

I'm not trying to be flippant, but what evidence do you have that this happened?


The passenger swamped in his own blood.
It's not because they are Iranian pilots that they are overreacting clueless idiots. Something must have triggered it, no commercial pilot would believe that they can outrun an F-15 and when the US specifically mentions a distance of intercept in their PR, it shows that they are trying to reject blame for the incident.
On the other hand, there are plenty of 25 year old Top Gun showoffs in the USAF, so not unlikely that they "had a little fun" with the Mahan pilots.
 
Asiaflyer
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:15 pm

Looks like a unnecessary provocation by USAF, putting people’s life at risk.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:26 pm

Asiaflyer wrote:
Looks like a unnecessary provocation by USAF, putting people’s life at risk.

Ah yes there we go... that sounds about right... no... just no...
First class or no class...
 
32andBelow
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:05 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
As of this moment, 1049 UTC 25/07/20, there's two Qatar aircraft, QR417 an A359 BEY-DOH and QR316, an A320 AYT-DOH, that have just overflown Syria very close to al Tanf. By my estimate it looks as if both aircraft flew about 5-7nm north/east of al Tanf, and the closest Mahan Air got to al Tanf was 5nm, so these aircraft were in a similar position.

Whilst this airspace is seldom frequented by civil traffic, this can't be the first time airliners have flown close to that airbase. The USAF must've had awareness of transiting civilian traffic, but seemingly ones from Qatar aren't being intercepted, and the nationality of the aircraft may have been a factor in the decision to order the intercept.


I wonder if QR is communicating about their flight plans with someone in Syria (maybe not the US directly) and Mahan isn’t?

The mahan could have had a broken transponder or on the wrong code so all the base saw was a primary.
 
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:12 pm

tjwgrr wrote:
Redd wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Based purely on the evidence so far, not a lot.

Hard to see that the US did anything wrong.

Is there any evidence that evasive manoeuvring was required.


Unless the USAF jet caused TCAS to go off in the A300. Which is most likely the case, and would explain the sudden manoeuvring the Mahan Air A300 had to do.


TCAS alert? I highly doubt the F-15s had their transponders on during the intercept.


From a USAF fighter pilot:

When intercepting a plane with TCAS. Traffic Collision Avoidance Systems interrogate nearby aircraft to obtain direction, distance (based on round-trip time) and altitude data from their transponders which it can use to alert the pilot when an aircraft is within minimum separation distances or is on a potential collision course. A military fighter intercepting a civilian aircraft will look like it's on a collision course to the civilian plane's TCAS (it pretty much will be until the interceptor forms up off the beam of the interceptee). This can lead to the pilot of the intercepted aircraft taking evasive maneuvers recommended by TCAS to avoid the potential collision, causing a "dogfight" as the interceptor tries to form up while the interceptee constantly evades. There is a standard squawk code in the U.S. for an intercepting aircraft (0000, 7777 for military) which some TCAS systems will treat differently, but in some cases the interceptor has to at least partially disable their transponder in order to avoid triggering TCAS.

That's pretty concurrent with a TCAS warning and seems to be the most probably possibility. I can't think of another logical reason the Mahan Air pilots would perform evasive manoeuvres.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:13 pm

US Airlines are prohibited by the FAA from overflying Syria. First it was by NOTAM in 2014 and now by an FAA regulation. My understanding that few (if any) western airlines overfly the country. It's a friggin warzone. Why other countries allow it makes no sense to me. Bad shit can happen in disputed areas. Just my speculation but the Airbus Capt knew that and was most likely skittish about overflight in that area. He overreacted when he saw the F-15(s) causing some sort of negative or zero G and some PAX were not strapped in. Regarding turbulence? Read GalaxyFlyer's post above. It's right on.
 
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Boeing757rb211
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:43 pm

[quote="SA280"]Why the interception in the first place?

I would be really concerned if USAF did it against a civilian aircraft without any reason.[/quote]


I fell like this has been answered in both the thread that was deleted AND multiple times in this one,,, How are they suppose to know what it really is without going up to a safe enough distance to see for themselves what the aircraft actually is, commercial or not? Which seems to be exactly what they did in what looks like a perfectly safe distance and procedural manor.
 
alasizon
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:20 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The passenger swamped in his own blood.
It's not because they are Iranian pilots that they are overreacting clueless idiots. Something must have triggered it, no commercial pilot would believe that they can outrun an F-15 and when the US specifically mentions a distance of intercept in their PR, it shows that they are trying to reject blame for the incident.
On the other hand, there are plenty of 25 year old Top Gun showoffs in the USAF, so not unlikely that they "had a little fun" with the Mahan pilots.


A) Pilots make mistakes all the times when it comes to lapses of judgement. Sure, no pilot can actually outrun an F15 in an A310 but that doesn't mean that one can't have a lapse of judgement, particularly one who is ex-military and has a reaction to seeing an F-15 (assuming they ever even saw it - most intercepts are not from the front).
B) So because the USAF decides to include the distance just to point out to overreaction by Mahan (and likely also Iran themselves in back channels) - you believe they are lying and rejecting blame?
C) Top Gun was a Navy movie - not Air Force.

Oh and if you think that passenger is "swamped" in his own blood - you've clearly never seen a serious head injury. He has a minor cut.
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ei146
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:45 pm

alasizon wrote:
A) Pilots make mistakes all the times...

And, this might even happen to pilots from US military forces sometimes...
 
wjcandee
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:13 pm

As well-illustrated by this highly-informative exchange:

ei146 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
A) Pilots make mistakes all the times...

And, this might even happen to pilots from US military forces sometimes...


The discussion here has moved entirely into the fanciful and pure speculation, largely devoid of facts (except for those few professionals who have tried to post actual facts about flying Big Planes).

Without expressly mentioning politics, it's rapidly becoming one of these, "It's the American's fault", "No it's the Iranian's fault", Airbus! Boeing! stupidities that the Mods have been working hard to stamp out.

So I'm on to better things....
 
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Gonzalo
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:58 pm

Honestly, with the video posted in the links above, I can not see any violent or aggressive action from the fighter jet. He is relatively close, yes, but all I can see is a fighter jet flying at a good distance, parallel and slightly above the Mahan plane ( so no risk of collision or being attacked with guns/missiles ), then the jet turns away to the right and descends very fast, so....where is the "violent interception" claimed in the video's title? All I can see is a fighter jet pilot visually checking or confirming the identity of another aircraft.
In summary, a general overreaction regarding a non event, with the Mahan pilots apparently doing all the possible effort to cause panic among passengers unnecessarily.

Let's move on.
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atcsundevil
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:12 pm

Please just discuss the topic. There's no need for injecting politics and flamebait. This was previously a productive discussion, but it's clearly starting to sour. If it continues to drift, then the thread will be locked.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:04 am

32andBelow wrote:
Cubsrule wrote:
sierrakilo44 wrote:
As of this moment, 1049 UTC 25/07/20, there's two Qatar aircraft, QR417 an A359 BEY-DOH and QR316, an A320 AYT-DOH, that have just overflown Syria very close to al Tanf. By my estimate it looks as if both aircraft flew about 5-7nm north/east of al Tanf, and the closest Mahan Air got to al Tanf was 5nm, so these aircraft were in a similar position.

Whilst this airspace is seldom frequented by civil traffic, this can't be the first time airliners have flown close to that airbase. The USAF must've had awareness of transiting civilian traffic, but seemingly ones from Qatar aren't being intercepted, and the nationality of the aircraft may have been a factor in the decision to order the intercept.


I wonder if QR is communicating about their flight plans with someone in Syria (maybe not the US directly) and Mahan isn’t?

The mahan could have had a broken transponder or on the wrong code so all the base saw was a primary.


Traffic coming from the east from the Bagdahd FIR would be handed off via standard procedures to Damascus FIR. There’s no NOTAMs out about a third party any flight plan has to be transmitted to. If there is a third party they aren’t making themselves known. The majority of traffic over Damascus FIR is Syrian, with a small proportion of Lebanese and Iraqi with some occasional Qatar overflights at least, but Qatari Aircraft would have to make up a tiny minority of the traffic so even if QR were reporting to some secret third party it wouldn’t account for the bulk of Damascus FIR traffic on that particular route.

There’s news reports of Mahan Air flying into Syria since 2013 so it’s not as if they were first time visitors to Syrian airspace. It seems they would have been flying on that exact route that took them close to al Tanf for most of their flights.

I very much doubt an ATC Centre would allow an aircraft to proceed into Syrian Airspace without at least informing the pilots their transponder signal was not being received and I very much doubt a pilot would continue into known conflicted airspace without an operative transponder.
 
Denver772
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:32 am

sierrakilo44 wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Based purely on the evidence so far, not a lot.

Hard to see that the US did anything wrong.

Is there any evidence that evasive manoeuvring was required.


There's very scant information on the incident beyond some brief statements.

But put yourselves in the Mahan Air pilot's shoes. (What follows is NOT an intended political comment, just an explanation of the possible mindset of a Mahan Air pilot flying in that airspace)

They just had a senior Iranian leader killed in a US Airstrike, a US Airstrike on Iranian territory was minutes from being conducted in June last year, they know that previous incidents between Iranian civilian airliners and US military forces have resulted in Iranian civilian aircraft being shot down. It's no secret tensions between the two nations are high. There is every reason for them to conclude the sudden appearance of US military forces on the scene may have had more sinister intentions than a supposed visual identification, or the fighters may have misidentified them (ala Iranair 655). It wasn't overreacting or panic, for them it may have been actions they believed necessary for the safety of their flight, and they maneuvered away from the fighters as best they could in their Airbus.


Non-politically I 100% agree. With all the tension this could have just been a knee jerk reaction then stabled out once everything settled. It will be interesting to see what comes out after this.
 
filejw
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:30 am

The only people a USAF fighter would be comunicating with in a combat theater ( this is to them) would be their AWACS comand and control A/C ..AWACS would inform them of any threats or conflicts....
 
ei146
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:34 am

wjcandee wrote:
As well-illustrated by this highly-informative exchange:

ei146 wrote:
alasizon wrote:
A) Pilots make mistakes all the times...

And, this might even happen to pilots from US military forces sometimes...


The discussion here has moved entirely into the fanciful and pure speculation, largely devoid of facts (except for those few professionals who have tried to post actual facts about flying Big Planes).

Without expressly mentioning politics, it's rapidly becoming one of these, "It's the American's fault", "No it's the Iranian's fault", Airbus! Boeing! stupidities that the Mods have been working hard to stamp out.

So I'm on to better things....


Sorry for that. I was playing devils advocat and should have said so. I just wanted to point out that the phrase
alasizon wrote:
Pilots make mistakes all the times
does not prove anything.
 
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Coronado990
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:48 pm

So obviously the lesson here is to turn on the Fasten Seatbelt sign before entering conflicted airspace.
Cornucopia
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:01 pm

So, nobody knows how far away the F-15 was when it was closest to the Airbus, but from the video it can be calculated how far it was when being filmed. With the scientific precision of an IKEA paper ruler (the ones made in paper you can get for free in the warehouses to measure things), measuring some details from the blurry video on my computer screen, I have done some high-tech research (Google for A310 dimensions) and found this:

Airbus A310 fuselage diameter: 5,64 m (radius=2,8 m)
Airbus A310 fuselage to engine c-c 7,7 m (c-c = center-center)
Distance from fuselage outside to camera = 0,5 m (scientific estimate, read "pure guesswork")

In the video, the CF6 engine can be seen with the same zoom factor as the F-15 is then seen with (probably). There, I measure the distance from the leading edge of the engine to the pylon to 5 cm. The F-15 is some 5 mm initially (before the camera operator zooms in to an unknown zoom setting).

Distance 7,7-2,8+0,5=5,4 meters camera to pylon/engine

With these numbers, I get a little over 500 meters distance to the F-15 (513 m in the calculator, but the accuracy is less than one digit). To be fair, it could be 1000 m or 250 m. It seems unlikely that the F-15 was more than 1000 meters from the Airbus at all times. From the video I can't tell if it was performing dangerously earlier on or after the video was shot. If it was indeed more than 500 meters away at all times and not in an "aggressive" direction, I see no reason for the pilots to overreact. 250 m? Might be scary if they were totally unprepared.

/Fredrik
 
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aeromoe
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A300 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:12 pm

SGAviation wrote:
The aircraft, EP-MNF is an A310-300, not A300.


And yet people downthread from your post are still calling it an A300 :banghead:
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Ziyulu
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:42 pm

Does anyone know if the seat belt sign was on prior to the evasive maneuver?
 
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FredrikHAD
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:52 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Does anyone know if the seat belt sign was on prior to the evasive maneuver?

In the video, I don't see the seat belt sign illuminated until the very end. It seems likely it wasn't. I'm not familiar with the A310, so others may have better info.
 
T4thH
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:04 pm

Sorry folks, but you are all missing something.

Ok, everyone is discussing the F-15 in this video, which has passed by (and the strong reaction by the pilots seems to be after the F-15 has passed). We have also discussed, if TICAS was on in the F-15, which has had forced the crew of the A310 to the overreaction.

Please note, there were two F-15 according to official US statement. Seems the Iranian crew was not aware of the second (first information by Iranian site was one IAF F-15). Were was the second one? Perhaps behind? Has the second one forced the A310 crew to the overreaction as the TICAS of the second F-15 was on and the F-15 came to near?

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