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T4thH
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:04 pm

Sorry folks, but you are all missing something.

Ok, everyone is discussing the F-15 in this video, which has passed by (and the strong reaction by the pilots seems to be after the F-15 has passed). We have also discussed, if TICAS was on in the F-15, which has had forced the crew of the A310 to the overreaction.

Please note, there were two F-15 according to official US statement. Seems the Iranian crew was not aware of the second (first information by Iranian site was one IAF F-15). Were was the second one? Perhaps behind? Has the second one forced the A310 crew to the overreaction as the TICAS of the second F-15 was on and the F-15 came to near?
 
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glideslope
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 10:51 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Does anyone know if the seat belt sign was on prior to the evasive maneuver?


Thank you. It's nice to be able to laugh in threads like this one. :checkeredflag:
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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csturdiv
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:00 pm

deltatrav wrote:
There is a rumor that the plane had cameras underneath it and that's why 1) it flew over the base, and 2) the pilot was so quick to descend (to avoid detection of the cameras). again, just a rumor


It is not as if an F15 is nimble enough to match the evasive maneuvers of an A310. Good move on the A310 pilots.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
Antarius
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:26 pm

T4thH wrote:
Sorry folks, but you are all missing something.

Ok, everyone is discussing the F-15 in this video, which has passed by (and the strong reaction by the pilots seems to be after the F-15 has passed). We have also discussed, if TICAS was on in the F-15, which has had forced the crew of the A310 to the overreaction.

Please note, there were two F-15 according to official US statement. Seems the Iranian crew was not aware of the second (first information by Iranian site was one IAF F-15). Were was the second one? Perhaps behind? Has the second one forced the A310 crew to the overreaction as the TICAS of the second F-15 was on and the F-15 came to near?


The statement says the second F15 was hanging back. And if the crew only knew there was one F15, then why would we think the second one played a role?
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T4thH
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:57 pm

Antarius wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Sorry folks, but you are all missing something.

Ok, everyone is discussing the F-15 in this video, which has passed by (and the strong reaction by the pilots seems to be after the F-15 has passed). We have also discussed, if TICAS was on in the F-15, which has had forced the crew of the A310 to the overreaction.

Please note, there were two F-15 according to official US statement. Seems the Iranian crew was not aware of the second (first information by Iranian site was one IAF F-15). Were was the second one? Perhaps behind? Has the second one forced the A310 crew to the overreaction as the TICAS of the second F-15 was on and the F-15 came to near?


The statement says the second F15 was hanging back. And if the crew only knew there was one F15, then why would we think the second one played a role?

OK, and how far away is "hanging back"? How near a jet has to get, to trigger the TCAS system? What I have seen, it seems the first F-15 had already passed, when the Mahan crew started with the "overreaction". This is to late....

In this whole story, there is a big hole, something is missing or something is wrong.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:57 pm

First, it’s TCAS, not TICAS and F-15s are not equipped with TCAS, but they do have Mode 1, 2, 3, 3A, 4 and 5 transponders. Mode 3A and 5 is what civilians use. Intercept procedures call for the interceptor(s) turn off Mode 3 to prevent the civilian plane from having an RA make the intercept hazardous. Secondly, intercepts are planned for a two-ship, one comes along side at a safe distance to identify, if necessary, pass instructions. The second plane remains in trail by some distance, at least, a mile to be in a position to react to threatening action by the intercepted plane.
 
wjcandee
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:09 am

T4thH wrote:
Sorry folks, but you are all missing something.

Ok, everyone is discussing the F-15 in this video, which has passed by (and the strong reaction by the pilots seems to be after the F-15 has passed). We have also discussed, if TICAS was on in the F-15, which has had forced the crew of the A310 to the overreaction.

Please note, there were two F-15 according to official US statement. Seems the Iranian crew was not aware of the second (first information by Iranian site was one IAF F-15). Were was the second one? Perhaps behind? Has the second one forced the A310 crew to the overreaction as the TICAS of the second F-15 was on and the F-15 came to near?


US reported that the second one stayed well out of range while the first one went just close enough to visually identify the aircraft as civilian or military.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:05 am

wjcandee wrote:
US reported that the second one stayed well out of range while the first one went just close enough to visually identify the aircraft as civilian or military.


Do F-15 pilots have regular eye tests?
I mean, it's not that hard to identify an A310, particularly if it's squawking it's flight number and registration to give you some clues.

"Hey guys, you're looking for two nice straight vapor trails leading up to a short fat twin engine Airbus in Eurowhite, with a bright green tail."



Besides, isn't the F-15 fitted with some kind of optical imaging device that allows them to see stuff way beyond normal visual range.
Or does that system only work when the missiles are on standby? :scratchchin:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:51 am

That’s not how it works. There’s a standard intercept plan, regardless of squawk code, one plane closes to a distance and position that allows positive identification; the other stays in trail. You can’t see much from the back of a plane. It would have been done exactly this way on 9/11 and they knew those planes. Why is this so hard?
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:35 am

Looks to me like the pilots of the 'bus just overreacted. I was on a CO 737 flying from SNA-Houston crossing the So-Cal coast when two RF-4Bs buzzed us flying on an almost identical heading underneath us within 100 yards, sliding underneath us starboard to port. No, I'm not joking. I could tell the colors of the pilots helmets, which way they were looking, who was looking at the instruments and who was looking up at us, even the tail codes and see (though couldn't read) the Bureau Number of one. No one panicked, tossed the plane around, or anything like that. It was just, "Hey look, Devil Dogs!"

Now granted, I practically grew up at El Toro MCAS and Camp Pendleton so seeing Phantoms up close wasn't a big deal for me, and I'm sure it wasn't for the CO pilots, either. Unless better video comes out, I'm going to chalk this one up to the Mahan Air pilots losing their poop when they shouldn't have.
 
Gyrfalcon
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:40 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
First, it’s TCAS, not TICAS and F-15s are not equipped with TCAS, but they do have Mode 1, 2, 3, 3A, 4 and 5 transponders. Mode 3A and 5 is what civilians use. Intercept procedures call for the interceptor(s) turn off Mode 3 to prevent the civilian plane from having an RA make the intercept hazardous. Secondly, intercepts are planned for a two-ship, one comes along side at a safe distance to identify, if necessary, pass instructions. The second plane remains in trail by some distance, at least, a mile to be in a position to react to threatening action by the intercepted plane.


Not quite. Mode 3, A, and S is what you are thinking for civilians. Mode 5 is a modernized military IFF system that replaces Mode 4.
 
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dennypayne
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:54 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
"Hey guys, you're looking for two nice straight vapor trails leading up to a short fat twin engine Airbus in Eurowhite, with a bright green tail."


Um, presumably if they knew to be looking for an A310 with a green tail there wouldn't have been any need for the intercept in the first place.
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:37 am

dennypayne wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
"Hey guys, you're looking for two nice straight vapor trails leading up to a short fat twin engine Airbus in Eurowhite, with a bright green tail."


Um, presumably if they knew to be looking for an A310 with a green tail there wouldn't have been any need for the intercept in the first place.

Why wouldn't they know they were looking for an A310 with a green tail? :roll:
Did it go into stealth mode?
Or are the USAF incapable of de-coding ADS-B transmissions? All it requires is a $20 dongle and a coat hanger for an aerial.

Or is it more fun to send your pilots up without any briefing; keep them in the dark as to the planes probable identity. Keep their reflexes sharp. :scratchchin:

I respectfully suggest they were sent up to verify it was a Mahan Air A310. As such they approach the "target" with that in firmly mind.... but also with one hand on the trigger in case it turns out to be something else. Actually, cancel that thought - even if it wasn't an A310 you should approach any suspicious aircraft with the safety on. Shooting it down (over somebody else's airspace) should be a last resort.

Of course if it had been an IDFAF F-15, different rules of engagement might apply.
But I expect better from the USA, or is that where I'm going wrong? :duck:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
bennett123
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:54 am

Sheikh

https://fighterjetsworld.com/weekly-art ... guar/2540/

Best to keep your hands away from the trigger if you are in doubt.

Best to tell the pilot that he is there to verify an A310 rather leave him in the dark.

Would be interesting to know what he was told in the briefing.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:46 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That’s not how it works. There’s a standard intercept plan, regardless of squawk code, one plane closes to a distance and position that allows positive identification; the other stays in trail. You can’t see much from the back of a plane. It would have been done exactly this way on 9/11 and they knew those planes. Why is this so hard?

I like the simplicity of a standard procedure, but it surely helps if it is blue on blue i.e. American vs American.(over US airspace)

When it is two different countries, countries who have been spitting at each other for several decades, and it takes place over a third country, in a region known for some degree of volatility....

I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

p.s. "you can't see much from the back of a plane"
Yeah, and from that angle it's so easy to mistake an A310 for a Mig-29. :roll:

I thought you fighter jocks were trained to creep up behind people without them seeing you?
You only need a 45° angle from the rear quarter to get all the info you need.
Meanwhile, the A310 pilots (and 90% of the people on board) cannot see you at all.

Accelerating up to the wingtip and deliberately showing yourself is just...... what happens with Tu-95 Bears. You want the Russian pilots to know you are there. That is the whole point. It's a game played out where both sides know what to expect.

So is that what these F-15s were doing?
"Mahan Air, we're watching you, and can shoot you down any time we want to"

ImageThx wikipedia

Or as The Chive so elegantly put it;
TheChive.com wrote:
“SUCK it Russia..we SEE you”
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:08 pm

Actually, I doubt the F-15s had the ability to decode ADS-B, not a military requirement. A brief use of the fire control radar would tell the Bear crew they were being watched. This intercept plan is used by the RAF, see photos of the bizjet over the UK that lost comm.
 
Antarius
Posts: 2414
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:34 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That’s not how it works. There’s a standard intercept plan, regardless of squawk code, one plane closes to a distance and position that allows positive identification; the other stays in trail. You can’t see much from the back of a plane. It would have been done exactly this way on 9/11 and they knew those planes. Why is this so hard?

I like the simplicity of a standard procedure, but it surely helps if it is blue on blue i.e. American vs American.(over US airspace)

When it is two different countries, countries who have been spitting at each other for several decades, and it takes place over a third country, in a region known for some degree of volatility....

I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

p.s. "you can't see much from the back of a plane"
Yeah, and from that angle it's so easy to mistake an A310 for a Mig-29. :roll:

I thought you fighter jocks were trained to creep up behind people without them seeing you?
You only need a 45° angle from the rear quarter to get all the info you need.
Meanwhile, the A310 pilots (and 90% of the people on board) cannot see you at all.

Accelerating up to the wingtip and deliberately showing yourself is just...... what happens with Tu-95 Bears. You want the Russian pilots to know you are there. That is the whole point. It's a game played out where both sides know what to expect.

So is that what these F-15s were doing?
"Mahan Air, we're watching you, and can shoot you down any time we want to"

ImageThx wikipedia

Or as The Chive so elegantly put it;
TheChive.com wrote:
“SUCK it Russia..we SEE you”


It seems there are some of us interested in finding out what happened and some who have already made up their mind and want to push an agenda.
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2225
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:54 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Actually, I doubt the F-15s had the ability to decode ADS-B, not a military requirement.
You know I respect so much of what you say, but adding ADS-B to to the F-15 avionics suite is not going to require re-inventing the wheel. FFS they carry such equipment on microlights. But if you say the F-15 probably doesn't carry it, I'll have to swallow that.

Besides, were these F-15s the only military asset in the area? Apart from other airborne equipment (AWACS springs to mind), how about the ground station controlling the F-15s. Do you 'spose their budget might run to an internet link and a subscription for FR24?

This intercept plan is used by the RAF, see photos of the bizjet over the UK that lost comm.
Again, when someone loses comms, you positively want them to see you on their wingtip - if only to prompt a wake-up call.

The task regarding the Mahan Air flight was for a totally different reason.... allegedly.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
32andBelow
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:29 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Actually, I doubt the F-15s had the ability to decode ADS-B, not a military requirement.
You know I respect so much of what you say, but adding ADS-B to to the F-15 avionics suite is not going to require re-inventing the wheel. FFS they carry such equipment on microlights. But if you say the F-15 probably doesn't carry it, I'll have to swallow that.

Besides, were these F-15s the only military asset in the area? Apart from other airborne equipment (AWACS springs to mind), how about the ground station controlling the F-15s. Do you 'spose their budget might run to an internet link and a subscription for FR24?

This intercept plan is used by the RAF, see photos of the bizjet over the UK that lost comm.
Again, when someone loses comms, you positively want them to see you on their wingtip - if only to prompt a wake-up call.

The task regarding the Mahan Air flight was for a totally different reason.... allegedly.

Decoding adsb is pointless. You can set your ADSB to boobies1 if you want.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 6057
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:21 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Actually, I doubt the F-15s had the ability to decode ADS-B, not a military requirement.
You know I respect so much of what you say, but adding ADS-B to to the F-15 avionics suite is not going to require re-inventing the wheel. FFS they carry such equipment on microlights. But if you say the F-15 probably doesn't carry it, I'll have to swallow that.

Besides, were these F-15s the only military asset in the area? Apart from other airborne equipment (AWACS springs to mind), how about the ground station controlling the F-15s. Do you 'spose their budget might run to an internet link and a subscription for FR24?

This intercept plan is used by the RAF, see photos of the bizjet over the UK that lost comm.
Again, when someone loses comms, you positively want them to see you on their wingtip - if only to prompt a wake-up call.

The task regarding the Mahan Air flight was for a totally different reason.... allegedly.


Here’s what the DoD had to say last August. As you can read, ADS-B is a priority for the airlifters due to their mission mixing with civil traffic. Fighters have little tactical use for ADS-B and are a low priority and that mostly for peacetime Ops. You obviously have little experience with DOD procurement. A little story from the late ‘90s. Localizers frequencies are just below the FM radio band, so for two decades or more, civil localizer receivers could process any FM interference to maintain the signal integrity. Not the military and not just the US MIL. I was at a conference at Scott. Two-star DO stands up and announces, “pay attention, this problem of not having FM Immune radios means no ILS in the upcoming winter in Europe”. I asked, how come this is a sudden problem and what are we doing. They knew it was a problem for 20 years but never addressed it.

https://www.eurocontrol.int/service/fre ... ty-support

The Pentagon will have 2,936 aircraft equipped with Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (Out) by the FAA-mandated deadline of Jan. 1, according to the U.S. Air Force, the military service in charge of the effort.

That number is just 21 percent of DoD's total aircraft inventory, but officials have said that ADS-B (Out) modifications present a significant depot scheduling challenge, and, in some cases, engineering challenges, such as for fighter aircraft. By 2025, DoD plans to have about 62 percent of its aircraft equipped with ADS-B (Out), including 35 percent of fighter aircraft, 67 percent of helicopters, and 100 percent of mobility, command and control/intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (C2/ISR), and trainer aircraft, an Air Force official said Aug. 19.

On Aug. 19, the Air Force provided a breakdown of the 2,936 aircraft to have ADS-B (Out) by Jan. 1. By that date, no fighter or bomber aircraft or UAVs will have ADS-B (Out), but 1,129 helicopters, 923 mobility aircraft, 259 C2/ISR aircraft, and 625 trainers will, the Air Force said.

The Air Force official said that DoD will not equip aircraft that are to retire by 2025 with ADS-B (Out), as the Pentagon determined that the effort would not be worth the cost. In addition, other aircraft, such as the Air Force bomber fleet and the future B-21 bomber, have mission requirements that "do not align from an operational security standpoint with the broadcast nature of ADS-B (Out)."
 
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SheikhDjibouti
Posts: 2225
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:59 pm

Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:45 pm

32andBelow wrote:
Decoding adsb is pointless. You can set your ADSB to boobies1 if you want.

That's right. Bravo!
I once saw an F-35B set it's ADS-B to "Lightning"; kinda invalidated it's stealth though. But it was fun to watch.

Now how about reading the rest of the thread to put your comment in context?

Or do you subscribe to the idea that it might be
"more fun to send your pilots up without any briefing; keep them in the dark as to the planes probable identity. Keep their reflexes sharp"
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
reltney
Posts: 634
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:11 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
First, it’s TCAS, not TICAS and F-15s are not equipped with TCAS, but they do have Mode 1, 2, 3, 3A, 4 and 5 transponders. Mode 3A and 5 is what civilians use. Intercept procedures call for the interceptor(s) turn off Mode 3 to prevent the civilian plane from having an RA make the intercept hazardous. Secondly, intercepts are planned for a two-ship, one comes along side at a safe distance to identify, if necessary, pass instructions. The second plane remains in trail by some distance, at least, a mile to be in a position to react to threatening action by the intercepted plane.



100% smack on.
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
reltney
Posts: 634
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:40 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
That’s not how it works. There’s a standard intercept plan, regardless of squawk code, one plane closes to a distance and position that allows positive identification; the other stays in trail. You can’t see much from the back of a plane. It would have been done exactly this way on 9/11 and they knew those planes. Why is this so hard?

I like the simplicity of a standard procedure, but it surely helps if it is blue on blue i.e. American vs American.(over US airspace)

When it is two different countries, countries who have been spitting at each other for several decades, and it takes place over a third country, in a region known for some degree of volatility....

I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

p.s. "you can't see much from the back of a plane"
Yeah, and from that angle it's so easy to mistake an A310 for a Mig-29. :roll:

I thought you fighter jocks were trained to creep up behind people without them seeing you?
You only need a 45° angle from the rear quarter to get all the info you need.
Meanwhile, the A310 pilots (and 90% of the people on board) cannot see you at all.

Accelerating up to the wingtip and deliberately showing yourself is just...... what happens with Tu-95 Bears. You want the Russian pilots to know you are there. That is the whole point. It's a game played out where both sides know what to expect.

So is that what these F-15s were doing?
"Mahan Air, we're watching you, and can shoot you down any time we want to"

ImageThx wikipedia

Or as The Chive so elegantly put it;
TheChive.com wrote:
“SUCK it Russia..we SEE you”



I flew counter drug missions out of some bases in the south of somewhere. I could sneak up on anyone in my F-16ADF and you never knew I was there unless they had NVG or I decided to turn on my very powerful spotlight in the left nose of my plane. Only used it once to scare the guy. It worked!! The last I saw was a PA-23 Aztec rolling hard left away from me. We tried to stay 200 KTS although he was 160ish we could fly way slower. The faster speed was needed Incase you needed to maneuver .
We learned lots about intercepts. We learned every type of plane was used to fly drugs. Best one was a Long EZ. Lots of the intercept is not available but the plane was fast and small. He actually held the record for distance followed. The most tactical one was 3 business jets flying in close formation to appear as one. Silly guys... wish I could share more as volumes of funny and bad stuff happened.

Cheers.
.
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
MohawkWeekend
Posts: 254
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Re: US F15 intercepting Iran's Mahan Air A310 resulted in several injuries

Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:30 pm

Reltney - maybe you should start a thread! W/O giving too many secrets away to the bad guys, I'm sure there are a bunch of us who would love to hear the stories
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