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Dutchy
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KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:05 pm

KLM has been criticized about gender-based discrimination

KLM was criticized by the Human Rights College because the airline has made a distinction based on gender, according to a statement by the College on Friday.

SP MP Ronald van Raak had brought the matter to the college after a Jewish Orthodox man on a KLM flight because of his religion did not want to sit next to his wife, because of her gender.

KLM would then have asked the Member of Parliament and his wife to sit somewhere else. In doing so, society would have committed the mistake "by failing to ensure a non-discriminatory environment".

The Institute for Human Rights would also have stated that from now on it should no longer be the victim, but the perpetrator who should be addressed, and that this policy should be propagated in the instructions for the employees.

Van Raak says he is happy with the outcome. "This is a public interest, that every woman should be able to count on her not being discriminated against on a KLM flight. I will ask KLM to adjust the working method based on this statement."


Link in Dutch

There are two sides of this. An operational and a principle one. As I understand it, the KLM crew acted very pragmatic by reseating the couple (he is an Member of Parlaiment, but that is irrelevant) and thus accomodating the Orthodox Jews in their demands. And by doing so, accomodating discrimination on gender. The principle side of course, is you cannot discriminate and thus that includes not facilitating it as well. But I can imagine that it is a real dilemma for the cabin crews dealing with such a situation or the captain if he gets involved. These Orthodox jews have caused some trouble in the past by refusing to move or refusing to be ejected from the flight itself. Which in itself will cause delay's and missing time slots.

I would like to hear how this is handled by different airlines. Is it left to the crews or do they have a policy regarding this.
Last edited by Dutchy on Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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lightsaber
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Re: KLM slab on the risk for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:12 pm

Sit where you are assigned. If the man cannot sit next to a woman and it wasn't voluntarily accommodated, he is the one coming up with new demands and should leave the plane.

As a father of daughters, facilitating this discrimination must end. This isn't KLM's fault.

This shouldn't be left to crews, it is far too political of an issue. It needs to be a cut and dry policy.

Lightsaber
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM slab on the risk for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:14 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Sit where you are assigned. If the man cannot sit next to a woman and it wasn't voluntarily accommodated, he is the one coming up with new demands and should leave the plane.

As a father of daughters, facilitating this discrimination must end. This isn't KLM's fault.

This shouldn't be left to crews, it is far too political of an issue. It needs to be a cut and dry policy.

Lightsaber


I am not sure what you. are say, on one hand you are saying it isn't KLM's fault, but on the other hand you are saying that it should be a policy, but than it is KLM's fault for not having a policy or the KLM crew who made the wrong judgment call.
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Dieuwer
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 1:56 pm

Classic case of two "Rights" clashing: The Right to Religious Freedom and the Right of Non-Discrimination.

KLM has no fault in this. Had they refused to re-seat the man, KLM would have been accused of "antisemitism" or "racism". And when KLM did re-seat the man, KLM was accused of discrimination.
The mainstream media of course doesn't care. For them this situation is a win-win as they can produce a click-beat screaming headline regardless.
 
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sassiciai
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:04 pm

Dutchy,

I suspect this is a serious matter for you - but can you reduce the punishment in the thread title on KLM to a slap on the wrist - methinks a slab on the wrist a bit OTT! :D
 
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DL747400
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:09 pm

Perhaps you meant to say "Slap" on the wrist?

KLM was in a no-win situation in this case, but KLM should not have been placed in this position in the first place. There cannot be laws written to address every possible situation. That is where common sense and communication come into play.

I actually put more responsibility on the customers in this case than on anyone else. There are other options for seating. They could have spoken with other passengers seated nearby to see whether someone would change seats, then informed the crew after the fact regarding reason for the seat swap. Problem solved. The crew would have likely been grateful to have not been dragged into the middle of it. Since that option was apparently not taken, that leaves me thinking that someone wanted to prove a point or to set a new legal precedent by filing the complaint.

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airhansa
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:13 pm

Why didn't they just do some magical chairs and move the man instead of the woman?
 
kiowa
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:15 pm

Easy answer for me is to reseat any elected official to middle seats in coach.
 
alasizon
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:26 pm

KLM isn't discriminating based on gender and that is likely what the misconception is from the public eye. The discrimination based on gender is actually coming from the husband himself (as a byproduct of his religious beliefs) and unfortunately, discrimination within the marriage based on gender is not protected by any law. Anti-discrimination laws only protect you from a business or company choosing to discriminate against you for a protected class, it doesn't protect you against your husband/wife/any other family member.

Now why they couldn't just pick separate seats knowing full well that these beliefs were so strongly held....
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RDUDDJI
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Re: KLM slab on the risk for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:28 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Sit where you are assigned. If the man cannot sit next to a woman and it wasn't voluntarily accommodated, he is the one coming up with new demands and should leave the plane.


I totally agree with that. If person A has a problem onboard with person B next to them because of something person B cannot control (like gender in this case), the onus should be on person A to either try to switch seats, or get off. Certainly the crew can try to facilitate a solution, but person B shouldn't be the one who is required to acquiesce to person A's demands.
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bennett123
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:40 pm

Why did he not just book two non adjacent seats.

How did this MP get involved.
 
Eikie
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Re: KLM slab on the risk for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:50 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Sit where you are assigned. If the man cannot sit next to a woman and it wasn't voluntarily accommodated, he is the one coming up with new demands and should leave the plane.


I totally agree with that. If person A has a problem onboard with person B next to them because of something person B cannot control (like gender in this case), the onus should be on person A to either try to switch seats, or get off. Certainly the crew can try to facilitate a solution, but person B shouldn't be the one who is required to acquiesce to person A's demands.
The quote isn't fully complete.
Problem is this case is that it wasn't a person A and B, but a group of men and a woman.
And moving 1 person is double, moving a group (7 I believe), is a lot more difficult. Combine that with time relaties pressure and it is far more easy to just move the woman.
Might not be the correct way, but picture yourself in the shoes of the one having to deal with it.
 
TheWorm123
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:50 pm

Even El Al get fed up of this nonsense eventually, but in these cases they were strangers. When the Torah says to not covet your neighbour’s ox I don’t think it was referring to your own wife :oops:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/el- ... -1.6217623

This more commonly comes from Ultra orthodox men (which the article should really say) rather than Orthodox men, but Rabbis have declared it kosher that men and women can sit on a plane together in any circumstances because that’s the proper conduct of getting on a plane:

https://www.rabbis.org/news/article.cfm?id=105899
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lightsaber
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Re: KLM slab on the risk for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:11 pm

Eikie wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Sit where you are assigned. If the man cannot sit next to a woman and it wasn't voluntarily accommodated, he is the one coming up with new demands and should leave the plane.


I totally agree with that. If person A has a problem onboard with person B next to them because of something person B cannot control (like gender in this case), the onus should be on person A to either try to switch seats, or get off. Certainly the crew can try to facilitate a solution, but person B shouldn't be the one who is required to acquiesce to person A's demands.
The quote isn't fully complete.
Problem is this case is that it wasn't a person A and B, but a group of men and a woman.
And moving 1 person is double, moving a group (7 I believe), is a lot more difficult. Combine that with time relaties pressure and it is far more easy to just move the woman.
Might not be the correct way, but picture yourself in the shoes of the one having to deal with it.

Simple, the man sits where he was assigned. If you aren't modern enough to sit next to a polite person of the opposite gender, then you shouldn't be flying.

KLM was in a no win. But if you cannot sit next to someone, it should be a law you pre-buy two seats (ir even a row).

The solution is a better contract of carriage with financial penalties for the *individual* discriminating. There is no right to discriminate as this passenger was.

If someone is polite, sober, and not smelly, I'll sit next to anyone. Anyone who cannot should stay in their little village and let the world improve without them.

No airline should have to deal with this. I propose just making people buy enough tickets to resolve this person's personal issue.

As a father of daughters, I will not tolerate this discrimination. I'm also a capitalist. If he wants the privilege of sitting next to whom he wants, let him pay. I know what I would select...

Lightsaber
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Ellofiend
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:37 pm

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, especially if there is some kind of Human Rights rep on board as was the case. Funny how it should happen to him and his wife of all people, perhaps I'm being too assuming and judgmental but I'm gonna say the case might not have gone this far if it happened to anyone else, surely there is a better use of one's time, even if KLM could improve the decisions made by staff but this is such an isolated incident, just reseat the inquiring passenger and if they refuse then they are in breach of the terms of service. Should such a situation ever occur, however, I would like to think the cabin crew at least tried to re-seat the man before asking the couple to move which they shouldn't have had to unless it were to J (or perhaps F considering no MP worth his salt would ever be found in Y *shudder*) But then again what do I know :)
 
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:53 pm

The orthodox jew was in the wrong, 100%. This was descrimination against the woman.

Ellofiend wrote:
Damned if you do, damned if you don't, especially if there is some kind of Human Rights rep on board as was the case. Funny how it should happen to him and his wife of all people, perhaps I'm being too assuming and judgmental but I'm gonna say the case might not have gone this far if it happened to anyone else, surely there is a better use of one's time, even if KLM could improve the decisions made by staff but this is such an isolated incident, just reseat the inquiring passenger and if they refuse then they are in breach of the terms of service. Should such a situation ever occur, however, I would like to think the cabin crew at least tried to re-seat the man before asking the couple to move which they shouldn't have had to unless it were to J (or perhaps F considering no MP worth his salt would ever be found in Y *shudder*) But then again what do I know :)


No F on KLM ;)
 
Chasensfo
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Re: KLM slab on the risk for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:03 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Sit where you are assigned. If the man cannot sit next to a woman and it wasn't voluntarily accommodated, he is the one coming up with new demands and should leave the plane.

As a father of daughters, facilitating this discrimination must end. This isn't KLM's fault.

This shouldn't be left to crews, it is far too political of an issue. It needs to be a cut and dry policy.

Lightsaber

When I worked airline CS, this is what we did. I once was working a CRJ-700 on an SFO-DFW flight, and a woman wanted to get off the plane with her daughter because first class was mostly middle eastern men in their 20s who were part of a rugby team. Let me rephrase that, a woman wanted 5 or so men to be kicked off the aircraft because she was a racist sack of crap, and we told her "OK, your options are to shut up, or get off the plane" in so many professional words, and she chose to get off the plane even though it meant being re-booked SFO-LAX-DFW with a 2 hour wait for the SFO-LAX flight. Luckily, I'm fairly certain these guys, who mostly had headphones on anyway and seemed uninterested in the gaggle of employees removing a calm passenger), did not ever realize what had happened.

Myself, my supervisor(an Egyptian man named Mohammed, mind you), the pilots, and the F/As had all tried to do as "professional" a job as possible in this situation, though we were all thinking the same thing and shooting each other the same looks. But, as racist as this woman obviously was, she was oddly pleasant, objective, and cooperative once we laid out her options and started the process. The woman was calm, and even stepped out in the jetway out of earshot from the first class pax before explaining herself to us. She was just 100% convinced that the next 9/11 style attack was going to be on that 66-seat CRJ-700, and no one could tell her otherwise.

The good news was, a young couple on buddy passes who were at the bottom of the standby list (the flight was full, no stand by's were awarded seats at boarding) had stuck around at the gate for this 20 minute ordeal. I told the ramp/pilots to hold off on changing the passenger count and let me see if we can keep it a "full boat" by scanning for standbys. Thanks to this woman's small minded beliefs, the couple was awarded 2 seats together in economy plus right behind first class. They were very happy, so I like to think it all worked out.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:01 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Why did he not just book two non adjacent seats.

How did this MP get involved.


His wife was the woman in question, so he was there..... Being an MP was irrelevant in this case.
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM slab on the risk for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:05 pm

Chasensfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Sit where you are assigned. If the man cannot sit next to a woman and it wasn't voluntarily accommodated, he is the one coming up with new demands and should leave the plane.

As a father of daughters, facilitating this discrimination must end. This isn't KLM's fault.

This shouldn't be left to crews, it is far too political of an issue. It needs to be a cut and dry policy.

Lightsaber

When I worked airline CS, this is what we did. I once was working a CRJ-700 on an SFO-DFW flight, and a woman wanted to get off the plane with her daughter because first class was mostly middle eastern men in their 20s who were part of a rugby team. Let me rephrase that, a woman wanted 5 or so men to be kicked off the aircraft because she was a racist sack of crap, and we told her "OK, your options are to shut up, or get off the plane" in so many professional words, and she chose to get off the plane even though it meant being re-booked SFO-LAX-DFW with a 2 hour wait for the SFO-LAX flight. Luckily, I'm fairly certain these guys, who mostly had headphones on anyway and seemed uninterested in the gaggle of employees removing a calm passenger), did not ever realize what had happened.

Myself, my supervisor(an Egyptian man named Mohammed, mind you), the pilots, and the F/As had all tried to do as "professional" a job as possible in this situation, though we were all thinking the same thing and shooting each other the same looks. But, as racist as this woman obviously was, she was oddly pleasant, objective, and cooperative once we laid out her options and started the process. The woman was calm, and even stepped out in the jetway out of earshot from the first class pax before explaining herself to us. She was just 100% convinced that the next 9/11 style attack was going to be on that 66-seat CRJ-700, and no one could tell her otherwise.

The good news was, a young couple on buddy passes who were at the bottom of the standby list (the flight was full, no stand by's were awarded seats at boarding) had stuck around at the gate for this 20 minute ordeal. I told the ramp/pilots to hold off on changing the passenger count and let me see if we can keep it a "full boat" by scanning for standbys. Thanks to this woman's small minded beliefs, the couple was awarded 2 seats together in economy plus right behind first class. They were very happy, so I like to think it all worked out.


Seem to be handled fine, one question though, why not just declare her ticked void? She decided not to travel, her choice, not the fault of the airline. Would have been "fun". if she made a fuss about buying another ticket on hte spot and had to explain herself exactly why she didn't want to travel on this flight.
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:10 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Classic case of two "Rights" clashing: The Right to Religious Freedom and the Right of Non-Discrimination.

KLM has no fault in this. Had they refused to re-seat the man, KLM would have been accused of "antisemitism" or "racism". And when KLM did re-seat the man, KLM was accused of discrimination.
The mainstream media of course doesn't care. For them this situation is a win-win as they can produce a click-beat screaming headline regardless.


No, KLM is at fault, "College voor de Rechten van de Mens" said so.
Sure, there is a clash between the two, but simply put, you cannot limit the freedom of others just because you believe something. Try this for a thought experiment: substitute Orthodox Jew with a NAZI and the woman with a black man, would it still be ok? Because the principle is the same, refusing to sit next to a person based on a random fact about this person which is no fault of them.

alasizon wrote:
KLM isn't discriminating based on gender and that is likely what the misconception is from the public eye


This is not true, the "College voor de Rechten van de Mens" (Dutch Human rights commission) heard the case and decided that KLM was in the wrong. Has nothing to do with the public eye. I will leave the rest of your contribution for yourself.
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:17 pm

sassiciai wrote:
Dutchy,

I suspect this is a serious matter for you - but can you reduce the punishment in the thread title on KLM to a slap on the wrist - methinks a slab on the wrist a bit OTT! :D

`
`Yes it is a serious matter, should be for everyone. But as a proud member of the dyslectic pride, I take no offense :duck:
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Dieuwer
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Classic case of two "Rights" clashing: The Right to Religious Freedom and the Right of Non-Discrimination.

KLM has no fault in this. Had they refused to re-seat the man, KLM would have been accused of "antisemitism" or "racism". And when KLM did re-seat the man, KLM was accused of discrimination.
The mainstream media of course doesn't care. For them this situation is a win-win as they can produce a click-beat screaming headline regardless.


No, KLM is at fault, "College voor de Rechten van de Mens" said so.
Sure, there is a clash between the two, but simply put, you cannot limit the freedom of others just because you believe something. Try this for a thought experiment: substitute Orthodox Jew with a NAZI and the woman with a black man, would it still be ok? Because the principle is the same, refusing to sit next to a person based on a random fact about this person which is no fault of them.


False Equivalence. "Nazi" is not a religion and therefore not protected.
KLM could have asked the man to move but then the man could have sued KLM at the "College voor de Rechten van de Mens" and KLM would probably have lost again.
You see the problem now with these "anti discrimination laws"? There is ALWAYS is a party that will be aggrieved and THEREFORE has a winnable case.
As I see it, there was only ONE solution possible: KLM should have MOVED BOTH to a different row. In that case, both the man and the woman were treated exactly the same. Although both could still claim that KL did do them wrong by moving them (for instance from a extra legroom row to an ordinary row).
 
Amsterdam
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Re: KLM slab on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:38 pm

If a regular white person says anything to anyone or wants or demands anything of anyone that someone doesnt like, everyone goes crazy. These jews in this instance FACTually discriminate in public space and everyone is very mild about their behavior. This kind of behavior should be as the Dutch say “pushed in the head” right away. No discussion about it. You don’t want to sit next to woman, you go exit right away.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:10 pm

It seems that most of these incidents are between orthodox men (Jews, Muslim) and women. In all cases that I have found it was the woman that was moved.
Apparently, airliners are more scared of being labeled "racist" than "discriminatory".
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:58 pm

The man is married to this woman. Why did they travel together? Why did the man marry this woman? Do they live together? Do they live together in the same house or apartment? This whole thing seems to meet be utter stupidity. Is the wife really the man's slave? Maybe the women should divorce this man and possibly find a man that would love and live with her as normal couples do. That is what marriage is all about. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
ltbewr
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Re: KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:34 pm

Like dealing with other conflicts of law vs. culture, religion, disabilities, there are limits of reasonable public accommodation. That most buy tickets on line now, buy the cheapest seats then on board demand the seats they really wanted but didn't want to pay for. (Until Covid-19) very packed flights limited the ability to make last-minute changes without angering other flyers.
 
A340500
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Re: KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:21 pm

I think there's some confusion in this thread based on the wording in the OP, the wife of the MP in question is being discussed, not the Jewish man's wife.

But maybe I'm the one reading it wrong.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination

Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:53 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
The man is married to this woman. Why did they travel together? Why did the man marry this woman? Do they live together? Do they live together in the same house or apartment? This whole thing seems to meet be utter stupidity. Is the wife really the man's slave? Maybe the women should divorce this man and possibly find a man that would love and live with her as normal couples do. That is what marriage is all about. :old:

A340500 wrote:
I think there's some confusion in this thread based on the wording in the OP, the wife of the MP in question is being discussed, not the Jewish man's wife.

Somebody else wrote:
The quote isn't fully complete.
Problem is this case is that it wasn't a person A and B, but a group of men and a woman.
And moving 1 person is double [edit "do-able"], moving a group (7 I believe), is a lot more difficult. Combine that with time relaties pressure and it is far more easy to just move the woman.

I was thrown a bit by the OP as well.
This is my current understanding;
There were nine (9) people involved in total
1) A party of seven (7) Orthodox Jews
2) A separate party of two - the Dutch MP & his wife.

The problem arose because one of the seven orthodox Jews was originally sitting next to the MP's wife.

At least I believe that is the problem. :scratchchin:

And if that is the case, I can see a good reason for KLM asking (asking, not demanding) if the MP & his wife would move.
At the time, the MP & his wife probably just wanted an easy solution, and to get on with their flight. So they agreed.

Later, after the flight, they had time to reflect and maybe decided to raise the issue so that if it came up again, there would be some better thought out policy in place.

Assuming that is all correct, we can further ponder what might have happened if the MP & his wife had refused the request from KLM.
And this is possibly the main argument in this thread.
i.e not what actually happened, but what should happen next time....

Alternatively I may have had too much wine tonight and I know nothing.... :white:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Chasensfo
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Re: KLM slab on the risk for discrimination

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
Chasensfo wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Seem to be handled fine, one question though, why not just declare her ticked void? She decided not to travel, her choice, not the fault of the airline. Would have been "fun". if she made a fuss about buying another ticket on hte spot and had to explain herself exactly why she didn't want to travel on this flight.


Long story short, "Customer Service". Technically, the policy is unless it is a full Y fare unrestricted ticket that the passenger should be put on standby for the next flight, not confirmed. It was not the policy of the major airline making the decisions about that flight to "zero out" or "void" the ticket, actually. However, for the sake of customer service, the major airline leaves situations like this up to the supervisors and management. Now if there is 1 seat left on the next flight and 20 stranded pax on standby who have been trying to get on a flight all day, then no, this woman would not get that seat and be re-booked. But, since she was flying with a small child, cooperative, and there were 20+ seats on both SFO-LAX and LAX-DFW meaning she would for sure get on-loaded from the standby lists anyway, we went ahead and rebooked her.

Now, I'm from San Francisco, we're very liberal and don't take kindly to racism. So yes, I'll admit, my first thought was "I can't wait for her to have to figure out her travel plans and explain WHY she got off the plane". But, the way the situation unfolded, we just decided to rebook her.
 
BuildingMyBento
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Re: KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination

Sat Jul 25, 2020 5:43 am

Bring back KU JFK-LHR
 
ME720
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Re: KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination

Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:34 am

Badly handled! The man should have been moved regardless of his religion or religious beliefs. His rights end when they infringe on the rights of others. The women should not have been reassigned another seat because he can’t sit next to a woman. They should try and find him another seat, if that is not possible.. he could always leave the plane and take another flight. Why should she move? If I were in her place the only move I would consider is to business or first!
 
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Re: KLM slap on the wrist for discrimination

Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:58 am

Due to personal attacks and aviation not being discussed in the topic, the topic is now locked
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos