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airbazar
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Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:39 pm

DylanHarvey wrote:
airbazar wrote:
hawaiian717 wrote:

Hawaiian wanted the A350-800. Rather then take the A350-900, which they viewed as too big for them, they converted to A330-800. When it was looking like they’d end up with an orphaned type there too, they started over and re-evaluated and determined that the 787-9 was the right plane at the right price compared to what Airbus had to offer.

And even that was heavily based on the idea of flying to Europe, and further into Asia which in today's world is looking less and less likely. At this point I'm filing the 789 in HA's fleet in a folder titled "I'll believe it when I see it". I think it's far more likely that HA will order more A321's than that they will ever take delivery of a 789.

I think another thing is the A330's on leases, I'm not sure how many they actually own. Despite the quarantine rules the demand for Hawaii is still high, and I think some routes demand more than the 180-190 seats of the neo.

IIRC only about half the A330 fleet is leased. The first 789's were supposed to start arriving next year. I don't see that happening any time soon.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:42 pm

Forgive me, but when did HA say they were buying 787-9s to fly n/s HNL-Europe?
 
DylanHarvey
Posts: 368
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Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:27 pm

airbazar wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
airbazar wrote:
And even that was heavily based on the idea of flying to Europe, and further into Asia which in today's world is looking less and less likely. At this point I'm filing the 789 in HA's fleet in a folder titled "I'll believe it when I see it". I think it's far more likely that HA will order more A321's than that they will ever take delivery of a 789.

I think another thing is the A330's on leases, I'm not sure how many they actually own. Despite the quarantine rules the demand for Hawaii is still high, and I think some routes demand more than the 180-190 seats of the neo.

IIRC only about half the A330 fleet is leased. The first 789's were supposed to start arriving next year. I don't see that happening any time soon.

Good to know. And yeah with the current situation the 332’s will suffice, there’s definitely no HNL-Europe demand right now, actually not really any demand anywhere :( and I think the 332’s are quite new as well.
 
AirAmericaKid
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Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:38 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm not sure anyone would want to fly 11 hours on a narrowbody. HA has the A330 and eventually the 787 for routes like HNL-JFK.

As someone who grew up regularly flying across the Pacfic since I was a kid on both 707's and 747's (yes I go back that far on Pan Am and NWA!) I agree it's the seat for me. Other than occasionally looking around and seeing more space, I end up spending most of my time in the seat sleeping, watching movies, and eating. Just did SF-FRA 11 hours on a 787 and got up once. I actually prefer the "cozier" feel of the narrow bodies. Used to take the Delta SEA-JFK-Pisa 757 flight regularly when they ran it, same plane all the way thru. Fantastic and efficient. And when you get up in business/first, the pod seats make you feel like you're in your own little narrow body cabin anyways.
 
airbazar
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Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:28 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Forgive me, but when did HA say they were buying 787-9s to fly n/s HNL-Europe?

https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/new ... y-for.html
But the 789 is a more capable replacement for the A338 which the previous CEO had already allude to its intentions of using it to Europe:
https://thepointsguy.com/2016/09/hawaii ... rope-a380/
 
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hawaiian717
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Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Forgive me, but when did HA say they were buying 787-9s to fly n/s HNL-Europe?


They didn't. HNL-Europe is one of those concepts that is always being brought up here and on various blog sites, but the last time I heard anything remotely official about it was Branson or Virgin Atlantic talking about doing it once they took delivery of their 787s (which obviously has yet to happen).

Here's what Hawaiian said about the 787 order:

“The Dreamliner combines excellent comfort for our guests with fantastic operational performance and will allow us to continue modernizing our fleet into the next decade,” said Hawaiian Airlines President and CEO Peter Ingram. “It has more seating capacity than Hawaiian’s current wide-body fleet, which will allow us to further build upon our successful growth in Asia."


https://newsroom.hawaiianairlines.com/r ... ines-fleet
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:35 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
HA could be EK of pacific ocean via a321 to 2nd tier cities in East-Asia and WestCoast


No it can't...Hawaii adds (SIGNIFICANT) distance because the Earth is a sphere...

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ICN-HNL-LAX,ICN-LAX

i

Show latitude and longitude
Show fractional heading

2 segment path:
ICN HNL 081° (E) 089° (E) 4,577 mi
HNL LAX 062° (NE) 052° (NE) 2,556 mi
7,132 mi
ICN LAX 049° (NE) 057° (NE) 5,994 mi
 
jagraham
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:41 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
I believe the intention with the A321neo order was to compete with Alaska and the service to smaller markets between California, Oregon and Washington.

The A321LR has a few drawbacks over the baseline A321neo:
  • Costs more to buy or lease
  • Weighs more meaning that it uses more fuel
  • Has higher landing fees
  • Has fuel tanks that reduce cargo volume

Hawaiian uses its widebodies for bigger and longer range markets. If Hawaiian doesn’t need the range for their narrowbodies, it’s better to buy the plane with lower total costs. I think A.net forgets the economics of higher gross weight airplanes being more expensive. At first more range always sounds appealing since it allows flexibility, but that flexibility comes at a cost


The XLR, other than costs, fixes most of the LR issues. Center tank bulkheads are moved, eliminating 2 container positions, but not having extra weight of ACTs. The front cargo compartment can be used. OEW is very close to regular NEO. But the XLR really wasn't available when HA ordered the A321s. Maybe they will get a few later - they don't need XLRs west of Texas.
 
Aceskywalker
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Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:41 pm

In this new world of possibly permanently reduced demand for exotic destinations, HA should seriously consider replacing 787 orders with XLRs. The former is even larger than the A330-200s they own which sort of doesn’t make sense anymore. The XLR has the range to make the US East Coast and Northeast Asia.

More and more capable narrowbody aircraft mean the inevitable death of widebody aircraft from all but the most congested airports and routes.
 
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smithbs
Posts: 487
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Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:14 pm

DylanHarvey wrote:
And yeah with the current situation the 332’s will suffice, there’s definitely no HNL-Europe demand right now, actually not really any demand anywhere :( and I think the 332’s are quite new as well.


I think the demand is cut off at the source. I would love to go to Hawaii right about now, but it appears that Hawaii with COVID precautions is just no fun.

AirAmericaKid wrote:
I actually prefer the "cozier" feel of the narrow bodies. Used to take the Delta SEA-JFK-Pisa 757 flight regularly when they ran it, same plane all the way thru. Fantastic and efficient. And when you get up in business/first, the pod seats make you feel like you're in your own little narrow body cabin anyways.


If you're up in F or J, then the pain of a narrow body goes away. For me, being stuck in Y or Y+ carries about a 4 hour time limit in narrow-bodies. Maybe more like 2 hours in a recent Recaro slim-seat. That's why I gave up on AS 737s to Hawaii and instead book specifically to get on HA's A332. But it's a subjective subject, like asking what everybody's preference of easy chair is.

Aceskywalker wrote:
In this new world of possibly permanently reduced demand for exotic destinations, HA should seriously consider replacing 787 orders with XLRs. The former is even larger than the A330-200s they own which sort of doesn’t make sense anymore. The XLR has the range to make the US East Coast and Northeast Asia.

More and more capable narrowbody aircraft mean the inevitable death of widebody aircraft from all but the most congested airports and routes.


I can't agree with you. Air travel demand will return. Society has had outbreaks before. Demand goes down, then comes back up and then goes even higher. It would be hard to convince me that the revenue potential of the XLR is better than say the 789 in the long term.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:26 pm

Aceskywalker wrote:
The XLR has the range to make the US East Coast
No it doesn't.
As we celebrate mediocrity, all the boys upstairs want to see, how much you'll pay for what you used to get for free.
 
Western727
Posts: 1775
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Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:08 pm

AirAmericaKid wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm not sure anyone would want to fly 11 hours on a narrowbody. HA has the A330 and eventually the 787 for routes like HNL-JFK.

As someone who grew up regularly flying across the Pacfic since I was a kid on both 707's and 747's (yes I go back that far on Pan Am and NWA!) I agree it's the seat for me. Other than occasionally looking around and seeing more space, I end up spending most of my time in the seat sleeping, watching movies, and eating. Just did SF-FRA 11 hours on a 787 and got up once. I actually prefer the "cozier" feel of the narrow bodies. Used to take the Delta SEA-JFK-Pisa 757 flight regularly when they ran it, same plane all the way thru. Fantastic and efficient. And when you get up in business/first, the pod seats make you feel like you're in your own little narrow body cabin anyways.


More power to you. I’m on the widebodies side. It’s personal preference and those here who say it’s immaterial are wrong. Yes, most don’t care. And we must all recognize that among the minority of us who DO care, there are indeed two camps, each with their preferences and leave it at that.

For me, it’s about walking around because I’m a restless person, hence preferring not to be in a narrow body for 10 hours. If given a choice for the same price and schedule I always default to widebodies. Nothing “wrong” with that. Just a personal opinion.
Jack @ AUS
 
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chunhimlai
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:03 am

Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:44 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
HA could be EK of pacific ocean via a321 to 2nd tier cities in East-Asia and WestCoast


No it can't...Hawaii adds (SIGNIFICANT) distance because the Earth is a sphere...

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ICN-HNL-LAX,ICN-LAX

i

Show latitude and longitude
Show fractional heading

2 segment path:
ICN HNL 081° (E) 089° (E) 4,577 mi
HNL LAX 062° (NE) 052° (NE) 2,556 mi
7,132 mi
ICN LAX 049° (NE) 057° (NE) 5,994 mi



Europe-asia route add significant distance via Middle-east
 
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Polot
Posts: 10636
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:48 am

chunhimlai wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
HA could be EK of pacific ocean via a321 to 2nd tier cities in East-Asia and WestCoast


No it can't...Hawaii adds (SIGNIFICANT) distance because the Earth is a sphere...

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=ICN-HNL-LAX,ICN-LAX

i

Show latitude and longitude
Show fractional heading

2 segment path:
ICN HNL 081° (E) 089° (E) 4,577 mi
HNL LAX 062° (NE) 052° (NE) 2,556 mi
7,132 mi
ICN LAX 049° (NE) 057° (NE) 5,994 mi



Europe-asia route add significant distance via Middle-east

Nothing like HNL on trans pac, and the ME hubs grew with limited competition in the general area. HNL is only ideally located for North America- Australia traffic. Going basically anywhere else to Asia established hubs like NRT and ICN provide shorter routes than via Hawaii. The Hawaiian islands are just too far south to be a successful EK like hub. Which is why HA is not attempting anything of the sorts.

You talk about A321 service to secondary airports in Asia from HNL without realizing that even the XLR would struggle to make it further than Japan/the Korean Peninsula in Asia.
 
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hawaiian717
Posts: 3473
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:25 am

Aceskywalker wrote:
In this new world of possibly permanently reduced demand for exotic destinations, HA should seriously consider replacing 787 orders with XLRs. The former is even larger than the A330-200s they own which sort of doesn’t make sense anymore. The XLR has the range to make the US East Coast and Northeast Asia.


Or... because Hawaii is domestic, it becomes more attractive to Americans compared to international destinations which might be more restrictive in allowing Americans entry.

Assuming it rolls out, Hawaii’s plan to allow arrivals with a recent negative COVID test to bypass the 14-day quarantine will make it an option for people who want to go on vacation. Many alternatives simply aren’t options right now as borders aren’t open to American passports. And Japan including Hawaii as one of 12 approved save travel destinations will bring in people on westbound flights.
 
ScottB
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Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:24 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
One example, from just a quick search:

"Hawaiian Airlines will further extend the networks of both companies, bring convenience to passengers from and around China traveling to the Hawaiian Islands and U.S. Mainland"

https://newsroom.hawaiianairlines.com/r ... -agreement


Except that's not a quote from anyone at HA -- it's from the CEO of Air China. And it's more logical to view that statement in the context of offering CA passengers the ability to visit both Hawaii and the U.S. mainland on a single itinerary, rather than connecting passengers from China to the U.S. mainland at HNL. After all, CA serves LAX/SFO/JFK non-stop on its own equipment and has access to the UA network via Star Alliance.

DL747400 wrote:
No rest, I'm afraid. Not as long as there are people who disagree with you and have their own booking preferences. I am firmly in the anti-narrowbody crowd when it comes to flight times greater than 5-6 hours. There are many folks who choose to fly on a widebody every time, hands down when it is an option. And I would even give serious consideration to a widebody connection versus a narrowbody nonstop. It is the both the absolute spaciousness and also the perception of spaciousness (two very different things) that make people prefer widebodies.


And yet that's still just anecdata. You don't think that marketing teams at the airlines don't look at customer preferences in cooperation with planning teams? Widebodies don't produce enough of a revenue premium, especially when balanced against capacity risk, for most markets without large premium demand. Markets with large premium demand get widebodies because those aircraft have room for large J cabins. And a product like Mint on B6 is touted as a huge success even though B6 doesn't fly a single widebody aircraft.

You may have your preferences, but the market has spoken. AS's success to Hawaii has basically been built on offering non-stop point-to-point services on narrowbody aircraft.

PhilMcCrackin wrote:
LAS and PHX are both A330 routes during normal, non-COVID times.


LAS is basically the 9th island so the demand for a widebody is always there outside of weird pandemic times. Heck, HA could probably even fill an A380 to LAS (but no, they should not be purchasing used A380s).

Aceskywalker wrote:
I'm still scratching my head as to why HA ditched the A330neo type entirely instead of buying into the A339. It would have kept Hawaiian's simple pool of "interisland" and "overseas" cabin/flight crew versus the mess the 787-9 will bring.


Because being able to use the optimal aircraft for the market in this case is more efficient than some relatively small efficiencies to be gained with cross-qualification between the A332 and A339.
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:59 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm not sure anyone would want to fly 11 hours on a narrowbody.

No, that's just (for the millionth time) one person projecting his own preferences onto anyone else.

People have been flying longhauls in narrowbodies for decades, and they'll likely be doing it decades from now.

Can we please give this concept a rest...[


JFK to FRA on a B707-320 in 1972...........
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
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Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:15 pm

Folks, this thread is about A321NEO vs. A321LR/xLR. Please keep posts on topic.
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
jeffrey1970
Posts: 1481
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 1:41 am

Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:02 pm

lightsaber wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
I'm not sure anyone would want to fly 11 hours on a narrowbody. HA has the A330 and eventually the 787 for routes like HNL-JFK.

I keep seeing this, but I ask why. It is the seat. Yes, narrowbody aircraft are a little slower, but not much. Otherwise it is the seat and service.

I prefer narrowbody Aircraft as the loading and unloading is usually faster (excluding 767).

Now for JFK, HA has better aircraft.

The A321NEO opened up small routes and allowed DFW among others. The A321xLR would be a smart investment for HA.

I would rather fly HA out of LGB than LAX.

Lightsaber




I agree with you.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
laser1180
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:36 pm

Re: Why didn't Hawaiian wait for the A321LR/XLR?

Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:21 pm

From what has been circulating in the company, Boeing isn't willing to delay the 787 delivery since they are also struggling. So HA might see 1st 787 next year as it originally planned. As soon as 787 arrives, the company will return the lease on a 1 in 1 out rate to remain the fleet size.

That is based on the current condition. By next yr if things imporve, who knows if the company will return the leases as quickly .

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