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32andBelow
Posts: 4969
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:07 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period


Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile

Maybe but also if there’s no schools and wfh people might keep going to Disney and then Hawaii might reopen.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 422
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:20 pm

32andBelow wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile

Maybe but also if there’s no schools and wfh people might keep going to Disney and then Hawaii might reopen.


I doubt Hawaii is going to reopen in September. The fact that they pushed it from 8/1 to 9/1, even with a COVID test requirement like Alaska, tells me they aren’t going to open until the mainland gets things under control.

Even if they do, and even if people are WFH and want to travel other places, I do agree with many here who have said the $600 unemployment boon has really boosted travel and consumer spending in general more than folks realize. Doesn’t sound like that’s going to be continued, if it goes down to $100-200 a week like the R’s want, I don’t see it having nearly the same effect
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:56 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile

Maybe but also if there’s no schools and wfh people might keep going to Disney and then Hawaii might reopen.


I doubt Hawaii is going to reopen in September. The fact that they pushed it from 8/1 to 9/1, even with a COVID test requirement like Alaska, tells me they aren’t going to open until the mainland gets things under control.

Even if they do, and even if people are WFH and want to travel other places, I do agree with many here who have said the $600 unemployment boon has really boosted travel and consumer spending in general more than folks realize. Doesn’t sound like that’s going to be continued, if it goes down to $100-200 a week like the R’s want, I don’t see it having nearly the same effect


I think people are overanalyzing this stuff. Travel is down simply because there’s very few reasons to travel right now. Quarantines, lockdowns, partially opened businesses and amenities, no conventions, no sports, very limited tourist destinations/experiences etc etc etc are all keeping people away. People want to travel but they are waiting until things get back to normal to get the most out of their money and efforts. If you travel anywhere right now, especially for leisure, you will not be getting the full experience. Why bother?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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Midwestindy
Posts: 5280
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Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:11 am

joeblow10 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period


Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile


Quite literally nothing will be as bad as what we saw in April, we had days with 3% yoy of last years travel.

We have already seen traditional demand patterns in action, July 4th and Memorial Day were both large week over week increases.

Some colleges are going online, but far from all: 50% are in person, 34% hybrid, and the rest are either online or undecided.
https://www.chronicle.com/article/heres ... all_signup

Silver1SWA wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Maybe but also if there’s no schools and wfh people might keep going to Disney and then Hawaii might reopen.


I doubt Hawaii is going to reopen in September. The fact that they pushed it from 8/1 to 9/1, even with a COVID test requirement like Alaska, tells me they aren’t going to open until the mainland gets things under control.

Even if they do, and even if people are WFH and want to travel other places, I do agree with many here who have said the $600 unemployment boon has really boosted travel and consumer spending in general more than folks realize. Doesn’t sound like that’s going to be continued, if it goes down to $100-200 a week like the R’s want, I don’t see it having nearly the same effect


I think people are overanalyzing this stuff. Travel is down simply because there’s very few reasons to travel right now. Quarantines, lockdowns, partially opened businesses and amenities, no conventions, no sports, very limited tourist destinations/experiences etc etc etc are all keeping people away. People want to travel but they are waiting until things get back to normal to get the most out of their money and efforts. If you travel anywhere right now, especially for leisure, you will not be getting the full experience. Why bother?


Yep agreed,
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
hondah35
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 1:55 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:51 am

joeblow10 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:

Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period


Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile


Traveling to see grandma may be out the window this holiday season if you have to mask up your whole family for a 5 hour flight and then mask up everywhere you go when you get there. And even if things seem to be clearing up, if there is still fear of another "wave" it will take a long time to get back to normal.
 
reltney
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:22 am

Read what SW said. No furloughs 1 oct. they did say they did not guarantee they wouldn’t furlough 1 Jan...... their words....

Cheers
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4969
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:46 am

hondah35 wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Winter won't be the toughest period for airlines, there is lots of "essential" VFR travel during the winter time (Thanksgiving-Early January).

Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.


I would hazard a guess that traditional patterns will be out the window for the coming year. It’s going to get very tough until next summer. Unless CARES 2 gives a bunch more of Uncle Sams free cash to the airlines

Anything Labor Day until Thanksgiving is absolutely toast. Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile


Traveling to see grandma may be out the window this holiday season if you have to mask up your whole family for a 5 hour flight and then mask up everywhere you go when you get there. And even if things seem to be clearing up, if there is still fear of another "wave" it will take a long time to get back to normal.

Vaccine will be out
 
TARTRESED
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:21 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:50 am

Not on October 1st, but bet on it happening soon after.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4686
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:30 am

reltney wrote:
Read what SW said. No furloughs 1 oct. they did say they did not guarantee they wouldn’t furlough 1 Jan...... their words....

Cheers


Their words were actually no furloughs October 1 and no intentions to seek furloughs, pay or benefits cuts through at least the end of the year but they can’t guarantee they will never happen. Now take the multiple public statements that they need to see demand recover substantially by year end and one can assume furloughs and/or cuts early next year could be a possibility but they haven’t said anything or hinted that they plan to on or near January 1.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15732
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:07 am

strfyr51 wrote:
WN has prospered from the commitment of it's team members. They require it? and they get it! If they were to start laying them off at the first sign of trouble?


The single most destructive event in the history of the airline industry is "the first sign of trouble"?

REALLY?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
reltney
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:12 am

Silver1SWA wrote:
reltney wrote:
Read what SW said. No furloughs 1 oct. they did say they did not guarantee they wouldn’t furlough 1 Jan...... their words....

Cheers


Their words were actually no furloughs October 1 and no intentions to seek furloughs, pay or benefits cuts through at least the end of the year but they can’t guarantee they will never happen. Now take the multiple public statements that they need to see demand recover substantially by year end and one can assume furloughs and/or cuts early next year could be a possibility but they haven’t said anything or hinted that they plan to on or near January 1.


Exactly ...I did not go back and review the quote but glad you did... next year starts on 1Jan so it was just a mark of the new year. Semantics . I hope no airline furloughs....

Cheers!
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8068
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:19 pm

TARTRESED wrote:
Not on October 1st, but bet on it happening soon after.


Southwest's corporate communications on COVID are going to wind up as a Harvard Business School case study of what not to do. They were fools at the end of May to declare they'd be flying a full schedule in November and December, comparable to last year. The right answer takes the form of 'We don't know. The situation is evolving day by day and we will respond accordingly.'

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... d-of-2020/

Employees want to hear they will have jobs but it's not a promise WN can make - nor can any carrier that lacks the full, unconditional support of a deep-pocketed government (and that's going to be a fairly short list). If it employs thousands of people it doesn't need they're wasting shareholder resources by incurring more debt.
 
enplaned
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:31 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TARTRESED wrote:
Not on October 1st, but bet on it happening soon after.


Southwest's corporate communications on COVID are going to wind up as a Harvard Business School case study of what not to do. They were fools at the end of May to declare they'd be flying a full schedule in November and December, comparable to last year. The right answer takes the form of 'We don't know. The situation is evolving day by day and we will respond accordingly.'

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... d-of-2020/

Employees want to hear they will have jobs but it's not a promise WN can make - nor can any carrier that lacks the full, unconditional support of a deep-pocketed government (and that's going to be a fairly short list). If it employs thousands of people it doesn't need they're wasting shareholder resources by incurring more debt.


Not sure that's right.

My view is Southwest's late May schedule was them putting the rest of the industry on notice that in Southwest's view, the brunt of any industry Nov/Dec cuts would have to be taken by other carriers. And Southwest is financially strong enough to make that stick.

It may be that Southwest's schedule in Nov/Dec is less than they originally (as of late May) intended it to be. But I'm pretty sure that if it is, every other carrier will have cuts even deeper than Southwest.

They've also now said that they'll not furlough anyone thru the end of the year. That's not an open-ended commitment, but it's notably a deeper commitment than any other carrier is making. Even if furloughs are necessary in the 2021, its employees will remember that Southwest stood by them for longer than any other carrier.

Lastly, Southwest is making this commitment at a very interesting time - other carriers are trying to get the govt to throw more money at the industry. That Southwest is saying it won't be furloughing anyone through the end of the year is, I suspect, going to make it *less* likely that the govt does throw more money at the industry. If that in fact is what happens, it further advantages those with the best balance sheets - in particular Southwest.

To me it seems that Southwest wants to get to the phase of the crisis where those who have husbanded their resources are advantaged and those who have not, suffer accordingly.
 
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enilria
Posts: 10254
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Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:42 pm

avgeekjohn wrote:
Kinda makes me wonder if there is another CARES deal in the works that we don't know about het. I feel like I've seen hints about another one but nothing too substantial. SWA hasn't been immune to all the coronavirus losses, of course. Any thoughts?

CARES2 is in the works. Airlines are optimistic about it. Personally, I have doubts as I don't see how they keep bailing out this one industry...Plus, every time the airlines say it is going to take years to get back to old travel levels they make the case that short-term bailouts make no sense.
exFWAOONW wrote:
Maybe they see a quick recovery and don’t need layoffs to make it through to better times.

No. I wish. Fall is going to be like May.
smithbs wrote:
departedflights wrote:
An incredible number of employees took voluntary long-term leaves with partial pay or a buyout to leave the Company.

The last number I saw was nearly 17,000 of 61,000 employees signed up for one of the programs. That is almost 28% of the workforce.

Included in that number is, I believe, almost 24% of the pilots and 33% of the flight attendants.

These long-term leaves begin in September.

I am sure this has contributed to furloughs not being necessary at this time.


Wow, those are impressive numbers for taking exit packages. With a rate like that, and maybe being mildly bullish on the recovery, WN is sized to where they want to be.

I think that's it. I'm not sure its "bullish" as much as they think they will loss-lead into being a bigger market share player post-COVID.
joeblow10 wrote:
Correct, but either way, lots of money off the payroll for this winter which is likely going to be the toughest period of time of this pandemic for the airlines. By next summer, we should start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Question is, can WN avoid furloughs for that entire period

I think September will be rock bottom unless there is a Fall spike and stay at home orders resume. If that happens you better buy gold.
Midwestindy wrote:
Toughest period was April & early May by a wide margin, probably followed by this upcoming September.

Yup. We are super-lucky that the rushed through CARES package included September.
32andBelow wrote:
Is would probably be super expensive for an airline to furlough in October and ramp up pilot training for summer 21.

For people that work at the stations their hours will probably decline with the schedule.

I don't see pilots get force laid off except maybe at regionals. The same cannot be said for all the other employee types.
joeblow10 wrote:
Then you get into Jan/Feb which are always bad for the airlines, even in the best of times. Maybe if we have a vaccine by then, spring break travel will be the first signs of life, but the airlines will still be much smaller. It’s going to be 4-6 months for widespread distribution of any vaccine, so I’m guessing next summer will be the first glimmer of light the industry sees for awhile

IMHO any vaccine will be incremental improvements. Fauci said 70% effectiveness is "best case" which means likely effectiveness is sub-50%. Is that enough to cause a night and day change in travel? I doubt it.
joeblow10 wrote:
Even thanksgiving and Christmas seem like travel will be way down - do you really want to risk visiting extended family and bringing the virus with you or back home? Not to mention - colleges will be going online, students won’t need to travel. Yes yes they still claim they will be in person - give it 4 more weeks after they have all your money or 2 weeks into the semester when mass outbreaks start occurring and watch how quickly that changes.

Schools are still a question mark. I agree that the idea of spending time with your older relatives at the Holidays is probably going to get blitzed by the media as wreckless and dangerous. I think the Holidays are wasteland. OTOH, things may change markedly after the election as the pressure to make political points through fear-mongering should abate no matter who wins. The world is so much worse off that this thing occurred in a U.S. election year.
32andBelow wrote:
Maybe but also if there’s no schools and wfh people might keep going to Disney and then Hawaii might reopen.

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Hawaii seceded. I don't see Hawaii liberalizing any time soon. Disney is a question mark. I haven't seen their numbers since reopening.
Midwestindy wrote:
Quite literally nothing will be as bad as what we saw in April, we had days with 3% yoy of last years travel.

I think consensus is that September will be around 25% of prior year among the Wall Street analysts. We peaked at around 45% in June.
Silver1SWA wrote:
Their words were actually no furloughs October 1 and no intentions to seek furloughs, pay or benefits cuts through at least the end of the year but they can’t guarantee they will never happen.

I don't see how airport workers don't get a furlough. Sad to say...
 
Lootess
Posts: 456
Joined: Sun May 13, 2018 6:15 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:09 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
TARTRESED wrote:
Not on October 1st, but bet on it happening soon after.


Southwest's corporate communications on COVID are going to wind up as a Harvard Business School case study of what not to do. They were fools at the end of May to declare they'd be flying a full schedule in November and December, comparable to last year. The right answer takes the form of 'We don't know. The situation is evolving day by day and we will respond accordingly.'

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... d-of-2020/

Employees want to hear they will have jobs but it's not a promise WN can make - nor can any carrier that lacks the full, unconditional support of a deep-pocketed government (and that's going to be a fairly short list). If it employs thousands of people it doesn't need they're wasting shareholder resources by incurring more debt.


Sometimes I think Southwest prides themselves almost too much on past history and don't always make rational PR or decisions as a result. Sure, some of it is their business model, since you really can't cut too much with point-to-point routes. Planes have to get to designation A to get to destination F at the end of the day. Some of it is trying to bleed little as possible but figuring out a way to come out of this more competitive over the competition.

Remember AA liked to brag they made more revenue per passenger over other competitors, and didn't have to go into bankruptcy. Roll around to 2014, they ended up in Chapter 11.
 
sadde
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:46 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:24 pm

Lootess wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
TARTRESED wrote:
Not on October 1st, but bet on it happening soon after.


Southwest's corporate communications on COVID are going to wind up as a Harvard Business School case study of what not to do. They were fools at the end of May to declare they'd be flying a full schedule in November and December, comparable to last year. The right answer takes the form of 'We don't know. The situation is evolving day by day and we will respond accordingly.'

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... d-of-2020/

Employees want to hear they will have jobs but it's not a promise WN can make - nor can any carrier that lacks the full, unconditional support of a deep-pocketed government (and that's going to be a fairly short list). If it employs thousands of people it doesn't need they're wasting shareholder resources by incurring more debt.


Sometimes I think Southwest prides themselves almost too much on past history and don't always make rational PR or decisions as a result. Sure, some of it is their business model, since you really can't cut too much with point-to-point routes. Planes have to get to designation A to get to destination F at the end of the day. Some of it is trying to bleed little as possible but figuring out a way to come out of this more competitive over the competition.

Remember AA liked to brag they made more revenue per passenger over other competitors, and didn't have to go into bankruptcy. Roll around to 2014, they ended up in Chapter 11.

Any other examples of this? I’ll never understand the WN hate here. In fact, HBS uses WN as a shining example all the time. What was so foolish about claiming to fly a full schedule? Like, where’s the harm? They have no obligation to follow through and can adjust capacity accordingly.

Just anecdotally speaking, I’ve flown on UA, G4, AA, AS and WN since May. WN was light years ahead in terms of experience and their overall handling of new restrictions. G4 and AA were downright stressful. Given the choice I’d hands down fly WN again if I could.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:35 pm

Southwest gets a lot of publicity because they didn’t have to “furlough” any employees, but in the end, they had to reduce their workforce just like other airlines. Therefore, a lot of Southwest employees will no longer have jobs just like a lot of DL/AA/UA employees will not have any jobs. I wouldn’t get too hung up on the word “furlough”.
 
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airportugal310
Posts: 3660
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Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:48 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
Southwest gets a lot of publicity because they didn’t have to “furlough” any employees, but in the end, they had to reduce their workforce just like other airlines. Therefore, a lot of Southwest employees will no longer have jobs just like a lot of DL/AA/UA employees will not have any jobs. I wouldn’t get too hung up on the word “furlough”.


I think that's a good distinction to make. The reason they don't have to "furlough" as they claim is because enough employees took a VSEP plan. Still shrank, but by employee's own free will and not the company having to do it themselves. PR "spin" by any other name...
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
enplaned
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:50 pm

MrPeanut wrote:
Southwest gets a lot of publicity because they didn’t have to “furlough” any employees, but in the end, they had to reduce their workforce just like other airlines. Therefore, a lot of Southwest employees will no longer have jobs just like a lot of DL/AA/UA employees will not have any jobs. I wouldn’t get too hung up on the word “furlough”.


I'm one who thinks that Southwest is no longer all that. It's no longer the company it was 20 years ago.

That said, there is a heck of a difference between being furloughed, which is involuntary, and taking a voluntary leave or separation. The latter is something someone chooses to do. The former is something that's forced on you. That distinction is fundamental and profound.

Southwest's folks chose to take leaves or separate. They chose to do it in large numbers. That speaks to the generosity of Southwest and/or the willingness of its employees to sacrifice for their company, presumably because of the depth of feeling Southwest employees have for their company.

Either way, it's huge. Give them their due - the manner of how Southwest accomplishes employee reductions matters a great deal.
 
departedflights
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri May 25, 2018 2:50 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:36 pm

I have to respectfully disagree with the folks on here who are stating that being furloughed and taking a voluntary leave or separation package is the same thing.

As someone who has personally experienced both, I assure you that they do not begin to compare.

Being required to give up your company ID, losing all of your benefits and not knowing when, or even if, you are going to be called back to work is a drastically different than taking a voluntary leave with full benefits and partial pay.

Furthermore, I can also tell you from experience that the morale at a company is damaged, sometimes irreversibly, by involuntary furloughs.

You may not like a particular company, but you shouldn't diminish it's attempts to do the right thing by its workers by calling those efforts something they are not.
The opinions are expressed are my own and do not represent those of anyone else, including my coworkers or my employer.
 
MrPeanut
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 8:36 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:50 pm

departedflights wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with the folks on here who are stating that being furloughed and taking a voluntary leave or separation package is the same thing.

As someone who has personally experienced both, I assure you that they do not begin to compare.

Being required to give up your company ID, losing all of your benefits and not knowing when, or even if, you are going to be called back to work is a drastically different than taking a voluntary leave with full benefits and partial pay.

Furthermore, I can also tell you from experience that the morale at a company is damaged, sometimes irreversibly, by involuntary furloughs.

You may not like a particular company, but you shouldn't diminish it's attempts to do the right thing by its workers by calling those efforts something they are not.


Yes, there is distinction from an employee perspective, but at its core, it’s all the same - all airlines (including Southwest) are forced to reduce their workforce.
 
F9Animal
Posts: 4424
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:51 pm

This is awesome news! I pray and hope things turn around. I gotta say, it's been depressing seeing how many airline workers are getting laid off. This will pass eventually. Looking forward to seeing things return back to health.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
Brickell305
Posts: 1021
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:23 pm

enplaned wrote:
MrPeanut wrote:
Southwest gets a lot of publicity because they didn’t have to “furlough” any employees, but in the end, they had to reduce their workforce just like other airlines. Therefore, a lot of Southwest employees will no longer have jobs just like a lot of DL/AA/UA employees will not have any jobs. I wouldn’t get too hung up on the word “furlough”.


I'm one who thinks that Southwest is no longer all that. It's no longer the company it was 20 years ago.

That said, there is a heck of a difference between being furloughed, which is involuntary, and taking a voluntary leave or separation. The latter is something someone chooses to do. The former is something that's forced on you. That distinction is fundamental and profound.

Southwest's folks chose to take leaves or separate. They chose to do it in large numbers. That speaks to the generosity of Southwest and/or the willingness of its employees to sacrifice for their company, presumably because of the depth of feeling Southwest employees have for their company.

Either way, it's huge. Give them their due - the manner of how Southwest accomplishes employee reductions matters a great deal.

Exactly. There clearly must be some reason why WN was able to get the requisite number of employees to take a voluntary separation or retirement while other airlines have been unable to achieve that.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

Re: Southwest will not furlough/lay off workers on Oct. 1

Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:16 am

MrPeanut wrote:
departedflights wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with the folks on here who are stating that being furloughed and taking a voluntary leave or separation package is the same thing.

As someone who has personally experienced both, I assure you that they do not begin to compare.

Being required to give up your company ID, losing all of your benefits and not knowing when, or even if, you are going to be called back to work is a drastically different than taking a voluntary leave with full benefits and partial pay.

Furthermore, I can also tell you from experience that the morale at a company is damaged, sometimes irreversibly, by involuntary furloughs.

You may not like a particular company, but you shouldn't diminish it's attempts to do the right thing by its workers by calling those efforts something they are not.


Yes, there is distinction from an employee perspective, but at its core, it’s all the same - all airlines (including Southwest) are forced to reduce their workforce.


It's possible some of the voluntary takers may have been told their jobs are at risk, so likely they had little choice.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Southwest Furloughs

Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:11 am

Behind a paywall, but title says it all.

Southwest Airlines asks employees to consider more unpaid leave after buyout package bidding ends

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news ... leave.html
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!

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