Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
EIBusiness
Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:47 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:46 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
EIBusiness wrote:
It's not as if the Government didn't have prior warning from other European countries that cases would spike again. It was trendy for a while to "blame the inbound arrivals" or to go on Twitter and post about measures against passengers from "high risk" areas. Cases per capita per day in Kildare during the past week for example are worse than many states here in the USA.

The cracks in this "coalition" government are already appearing. There is no strategy, there is no joined up thinking, there is no consideration of the tens of thousands of pending job losses in the Aviation sector. There is a hope and a prayer that somehow the schools will be re-opened and that a vaccine will arrive to return to some level of normality again gradually in 2021.


I really don’t recognise what you are describing. Other European counties approach is hardly different and aviation jobs have not been protected. IAG, Ryanair and easyJet have closed European bases, no Irish base has closed yet. LH and AF/KL have consumed a billion each and the UK has lent money to IAG, Wizz, easyJet and Ryanair, TUI and Jet2 have made redundancies.
That cases in Kildare are higher than parts of the US is entirely irrelevant. What is important is that Ireland went, over the course of 10 days, from 4/100,000 to 7 as per ECDC. It happens quickly and by stealth - the figures are already 10-14 days behind the reality.

We have done a huge amount of testing, compared to our European peers and the overall rate of positive testing is lower than our European peers at 0.2. Sweden’s mortality is at 12.1-1,000,000 the UK is similarly bad, although the positivity is falling and now 0.5%. To put all that in perspective the mortality rate in Sweden is 60 times the rate in Ireland. That’s what happens when you let this virus run rampant.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/defaul ... 200810.pdf


The Republic of Ireland has c. 1,775 reported deaths and a population of 4.9 million people. Sweden has c. 5,800 reported deaths and a population of 10.23 million people. I'm struggling to see a 60 fold differential between both when taking those numbers into account. The data quoted on this thread just now highlighting the catastrophic drop off in activity for Aer Lingus is a good proxy for the overall situation in Ireland, given that Ryanair is of course a Europe wide based airline. The numbers speak for themselves. Ireland has been disproportionately impacted economically and has ended up with at best a "middle of the pack" situation with regard to the virus evolution.

The case incidence rate in Kildare being compared to the USA or anywhere else that is up for potential red list travel bans into Ireland is entirely relevant. Are you suggesting that the epidemiological situation in Ireland versus another jurisdiction that could be banned entirely from entry (based on recent Irish Government pronouncements over Twitter) is irrelevant?

We all know and are well aware of how incredibly infectious and potentially destructive this virus is, but Ireland is simply not achieving balance. There is death in the economic destruction and poverty that will follow from disproportionately severe measures. But don't take my word for it - tonight we see Ryanair indicating job losses and potentially winter layoffs in Ireland:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0 ... ss-travel/

We even have the government openly admitting tonight that they were "caught out" by the rapid rise in cases - that's simply not acceptable.
Vivo Per Lei...
 
ShamrockBoi330
Posts: 369
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:28 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:07 pm

Anyone here have any insight into when the next wave of cancellations from EI will come for North America?

Currently booked (on a rescheduled Easter flight!!) YYZ - DUB. Current YYZ cancelations are only to 9/21 (friend was flying week before me and got her cancelation a couple of weeks back!), and my flight is a few days later!
 
User avatar
AmricanShamrok
Posts: 2289
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 2:03 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:16 pm

I have a relative booked to fly SNN-LGW with FR in September. FR cancelled the flight and automatically rebooked her on the flight the day before but she has received no notification of the change (she only discovered it by chance on her online "My Bookings" profile). How long normally does FR take to get in touch? I assume they'll offer her other flights to change to for free or a refund?
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:12 am

Ryanair insists it is making rapid progress processing refunds for customers who booked flights that have been cancelled. It says it has issued more than €750m in refunds and vouchers.

But many customers are still angry as the airline is sending them vouchers when they have specified they want a refund, to which they are entitled under law.

https://amp.independent.ie/business/per ... 67016.html



A travel expert says he believes the Government's 'green list' of safer countries to travel to will be scrapped by the end of the week.

It comes after there was no mention of the list or international travel, as part of new restrictions announced on Tuesday.

www.newstalk.com/news/traffic-irish-air ... 98-1063072

 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:21 am

OA260 wrote:
A travel expert says he believes the Government's 'green list' of safer countries to travel to will be scrapped by the end of the week.

It comes after there was no mention of the list or international travel, as part of new restrictions announced on Tuesday.

http://www.newstalk.com/news/traffic-ir ... 98-1063072



It would not surprise me. The UK government has just taken Croatia off their list, for example. Last week the cases were ~10/100000 yesterday it was ~29/100000. Just an example of how quickly things can change.

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
Anyone here have any insight into when the next wave of cancellations from EI will come for North America?

They seem to cancel in batches of 3-4 weeks, roughly 3-4 weeks in advance. Late September should be soon. Given the current entry restrictions on both ends of that route I would work on the basis that a voucher will be forthcoming and begin to fantasise on where you could use it. CFN or KIR? An open-jaw perhaps? The possibilities are endless. :scratchchin:

EIBusiness wrote:
We all know and are well aware of how incredibly infectious and potentially destructive this virus is, but Ireland is simply not achieving balance. There is death in the economic destruction and poverty that will follow from disproportionately severe measures. But don't take my word for it - tonight we see Ryanair indicating job losses and potentially winter layoffs in Ireland:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2020/0 ... ss-travel/

We even have the government openly admitting tonight that they were "caught out" by the rapid rise in cases - that's simply not acceptable.


My sums were wrong, the infection rate in Sweeden is 4 times the Irish one and the death rate 6 times. Not Sixty as I miscalculated.

As you say the restrictions in Ireland have been severe and are ongoing, but I'm not sure what the alternative is? I don't see how opening airports/reducing travel restrictions at a time when our neighbours are re-introducing them makes sense? I don't see how travel restrictions alone would re-invigorate the economy and prevent poverty? In Sweden where restrictions haven't been introduced for EU travel, masks are not required, etc the GDP hit for 2020 will be -6.1%, the Irish hit is -7.9%. The difference in GDP rates is ~2%, both countries are in the middle of the table, despite relatively extreme positions on restrictions. In itself that is relatively worrying, neither strategy is particularly effective, both inflict morbidity, mortality and economic hardship, from COVID-19 and other pathologies.

I agree that Aer Lingus has been more severely affected than most of their peers, but even SAS overall capacity reduced by 63% and Norwegian by 84%. I know SAS and Norwegian aren't great examples, but thats the data we have.

The real difficulty is that there is no clear way forward from where we are now. I agree that ravel related cases are a minority of the new case numbers, but it is politically convenient and publicly visible to restrict travel internationally. I think some form of testing on 2-3 occasions is going to be one widely adopted strategy. Possibly 72 hours before travel, on arrival and 2-3 days after travel, or similar. Realistically, I would not expect movement on this until after the schools go back and settle down. I think some programe will be required by Christmas, assuming there are stable levels of infection in the late Autumn.
 
dergay
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:12 pm

OA260 wrote:
Ryanair insists it is making rapid progress processing refunds for customers who booked flights that have been cancelled. It says it has issued more than €750m in refunds and vouchers.

But many customers are still angry as the airline is sending them vouchers when they have specified they want a refund, to which they are entitled under law.

https://amp.independent.ie/business/per ... 67016.html



Not just Ryanair - I am awaiting confirmation of when I will receive a voucher that I may redeem for cash (after nine months) from Aer Lingus Holidays. They claim they are awaiting funds from the airline - Aer Lingus, and don't know when they'll get it! Flight was for travel in May, return week 1 June. Appalling!
Flown on A300,A310,A318,A319,A320,A321,A330,B707,B720,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,L382,L1011,C5,DC-3,DC8,
 
Fliplot
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:23 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 1:42 pm

Not appalling
Just plain criminal!
Not sure what it will take to get compliance from airlines apart from direct Government involvment. Some might say that Government inaction is a form of state aid - I would agree.
 
Galwayman
Posts: 944
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:20 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:02 pm

AmricanShamrok wrote:
I have a relative booked to fly SNN-LGW with FR in September. FR cancelled the flight and automatically rebooked her on the flight the day before but she has received no notification of the change (she only discovered it by chance on her online "My Bookings" profile). How long normally does FR take to get in touch? I assume they'll offer her other flights to change to for free or a refund?


In my experience ( similar to above ) they email within minutes and refund in less than a week . Did she book via a third party or something? ( seriously though FR have been excellent - don’t get me going on VS ...)
 
EI564
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 9:05 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:26 pm

OA260 wrote:
A travel expert says he believes the Government's 'green list' of safer countries to travel to will be scrapped by the end of the week.

It comes after there was no mention of the list or international travel, as part of new restrictions announced on Tuesday.

http://www.newstalk.com/news/traffic-ir ... 98-1063072


I hope not. Apparently only Finland, Hungary and Latvia would still be on the green list using the original cut off point. But i'd rather the principal of travel to still exist, even if it is to countries very few people will want to travel to. When things get better, countries can get added onto the list (and removed if things get worse).

Otherwise, who knows when unrestricted travel anywhere will be allowed again. It could take months and months.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:44 pm

dergay wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Ryanair insists it is making rapid progress processing refunds for customers who booked flights that have been cancelled. It says it has issued more than €750m in refunds and vouchers.

But many customers are still angry as the airline is sending them vouchers when they have specified they want a refund, to which they are entitled under law.

https://amp.independent.ie/business/per ... 67016.html



Not just Ryanair - I am awaiting confirmation of when I will receive a voucher that I may redeem for cash (after nine months) from Aer Lingus Holidays. They claim they are awaiting funds from the airline - Aer Lingus, and don't know when they'll get it! Flight was for travel in May, return week 1 June. Appalling!


Because as I mentioned before Aer Lingus is a totally different company then who you booked with they are a third party similar to Love Holidays or On the beach etc... They maybe holding your money which has happened with a lot of these OTA websites. The refunds that were taking longer were those bookings which had extras added onto them and they needed to be processed manually. For every person that says they have had a good or bad experience with EI or FR there is another one that has had a different experience so very hard to say FR are better then EI etc.. I know many who have had terrible experiences with both as well as those who have had great experiences. Those that booked with OTAs rather than a high street TO or Travel Agent seem to be the worse off. Then again Im sure there are cases of the opposite.


EI564 wrote:
OA260 wrote:
A travel expert says he believes the Government's 'green list' of safer countries to travel to will be scrapped by the end of the week.

It comes after there was no mention of the list or international travel, as part of new restrictions announced on Tuesday.

http://www.newstalk.com/news/traffic-ir ... 98-1063072


I hope not. Apparently only Finland, Hungary and Latvia would still be on the green list using the original cut off point. But i'd rather the principal of travel to still exist, even if it is to countries very few people will want to travel to. When things get better, countries can get added onto the list (and removed if things get worse).

Otherwise, who knows when unrestricted travel anywhere will be allowed again. It could take months and months.


I was talking to someone very connected to the travel industry and aviation today and currently things look very bleak even if the government relaxed restrictions. The majority of Irish seem to be more cautious compared to the other EU nations and the UK with regards to travel this year. As things stand it seems 2020 is indeed written off for any meaningful travel as I sadly predicted back in March.
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:50 pm

OA260 wrote:
For every person that says they have had a good or bad experience with EI or FR there is another one that has had a different experience so very hard to say FR are better then EI etc.. I know many who have had terrible experiences with both as well as those who have had great experiences. Those that booked with OTAs rather than a high street TO or Travel Agent seem to be the worse off. Then again Im sure there are cases of the opposite.


I have had good and bad experience with Ryanair. The on-line service usually works well for rescheduling flights, free changes onto any available flight if the flight is cancelled by FR. Seeking a refund is a much worse experience and I am still waiting on vouchers where there was no suitable alternative. Vueling issued a voucher quite quickly and ignored further attempts to turn this into cash, for easyJet I had to initiate a chargeback with AmEx. Surprisingly Wizz refunded very quickly, just as they promised. In terms of getting money that I have paid back for flights that were cancelled Wizz stand head and shoulders above the rest. As you say Phil, these are anecdotal experiences.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:32 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
for easyJet I had to initiate a chargeback with AmEx. Surprisingly Wizz refunded very quickly, just as they promised. In terms of getting money that I have paid back for flights that were cancelled Wizz stand head and shoulders above the rest. As you say Phil, these are anecdotal experiences.


There you go and people that I know have been raving about how good EZY and LS have been in the UK especially LS. I guess this is chaotic times and some refunds are going through smoothly and others not. Also there can be blame on the passenger too for not taking the steps needed either through genuinely not knowing or laziness. I know people that expect the refund to land in their lap with them not doing anything.

Personally I stopped booking everything back at the start of the year and only booked things last minute. I did not have many issues at all. Aer Lingus were a bit slow to act with regards free change fees initially if Im going to be honest but since then have been pretty ok. They got me back home hours before lockdown and by then the change fee rule had kicked in and I made use of it twice on the same ticket. Also back in July I used the same system twice and paid no extra. I have only had good experiences with them and thats why I stay loyal to them. Also they have been decent enough with the Aer Club extensions.

Interesting today the WHO said they expect the pandemic to be over in around two years. Lets hope we get a treatment or vaccine well before then and we can start getting back to a new normal.
 
dergay
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:55 pm

Because as I mentioned before Aer Lingus is a totally different company then who you booked with they are a third party similar to Love Holidays or On the beach etc... They maybe holding your money which has happened with a lot of these OTA websites. The refunds that were taking longer were those bookings which had extras added onto them and they needed to be processed manually. For every person that says they have had a good or bad experience with EI or FR there is another one that has had a different experience so very hard to say FR are better then EI etc.. I know many who have had terrible experiences with both as well as those who have had great experiences. Those that booked with OTAs rather than a high street TO or Travel Agent seem to be the worse off. Then again Im sure there are cases of the opposite.

The booking in question was made on the Aer Lingus web-site www.aerlingus.com, directing me to a link https://www.holidayswithaerlingus.com. This link and service still exists! The invoice has a green shamrock (Aer Lingus) motif and name and the name "Holidays with Aer Lingus". The booking confirmation and flight cancellations come from [email protected]. Yet you say Aer Lingus is a totally different company to this. The mind boggles! Interestingly Aer Lingus holidays have reimbursed the amounts due from the other service providers involved in the contract.

If it looks like Aer Lingus, feels like Aer Lingus and smells like Aer Lingus, it must be..................

I'm not an employee of any of the airlines or travel companies mentioned - just a "guest"!
Flown on A300,A310,A318,A319,A320,A321,A330,B707,B720,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,L382,L1011,C5,DC-3,DC8,
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:09 pm

dergay wrote:
Because as I mentioned before Aer Lingus is a totally different company then who you booked with they are a third party similar to Love Holidays or On the beach etc... They maybe holding your money which has happened with a lot of these OTA websites. The refunds that were taking longer were those bookings which had extras added onto them and they needed to be processed manually. For every person that says they have had a good or bad experience with EI or FR there is another one that has had a different experience so very hard to say FR are better then EI etc.. I know many who have had terrible experiences with both as well as those who have had great experiences. Those that booked with OTAs rather than a high street TO or Travel Agent seem to be the worse off. Then again Im sure there are cases of the opposite.

The booking in question was made on the Aer Lingus web-site http://www.aerlingus.com, directing me to a link https://www.holidayswithaerlingus.com. This link and service still exists! The invoice has a green shamrock (Aer Lingus) motif and name and the name "Holidays with Aer Lingus". The booking confirmation and flight cancellations come from [email protected]. Yet you say Aer Lingus is a totally different company to this. The mind boggles! Interestingly Aer Lingus holidays have reimbursed the amounts due from the other service providers involved in the contract.

If it looks like Aer Lingus, feels like Aer Lingus and smells like Aer Lingus, it must be..................

I'm not an employee of any of the airlines or travel companies mentioned - just a "guest"!


If you dig deeper into the T&C’s and the “About Us” section it reveals the real company you booked with .

“To offer you absolute peace of mind that your money is 100% protected, we are licensed & bonded by CAR (Commission for Aviation Regulation). Every single holiday booked through Holidays with Aer Lingus is covered by our bond. Our license number is TA 0700.“

And at bottom

Your Holiday Guarantee

Click&Go is a member of the Irish Travel Agents Association
Licensed and bonded by the Commission for Aviation Regulation.
Licence No. TA 0700 SimplySun Ltd., t/a Click&Go acts as an agent for Travel Department under ATOL 9373.
3.6.10


So there you go its booked with a third party OTA and your legal contract is with them not Aer Lingus. I know it looks like Aer Lingus and smells like Aer Lingus but legally they have nothing to do with Aer Lingus other then a loose partnership .
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 6:14 pm

dergay wrote:

I'm not an employee of any of the airlines or travel companies mentioned - just a "guest"!


If you scroll to the bottom of the webpage the following text appears “ Your Holiday Guarantee

Click&Go is a member of the Irish Travel Agents Association
Licensed and bonded by the Commission for Aviation Regulation.
Licence No. TA 0700 SimplySun Ltd., t/a Click&Go acts as an agent for Travel Department under ATOL 9373.
3.6.10”

Looks like holidayswithAerLingus is actually holidayswithClick&Go
 
dergay
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:02 pm

Somebody should tell Aer Lingus that - why do they send flight changes and cancellations direct to the pax?
Flown on A300,A310,A318,A319,A320,A321,A330,B707,B720,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,L382,L1011,C5,DC-3,DC8,
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:09 pm

dergay wrote:
Somebody should tell Aer Lingus that - why do they send flight changes and cancellations direct to the pax?


Because the OTA enters your mobile number and email address into the EI system when you book. Its a process similar to what screen grab websites do except this is fully authorised by Aer Lingus .
 
dergay
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:33 pm

OA260 wrote:
dergay wrote:
Somebody should tell Aer Lingus that - why do they send flight changes and cancellations direct to the pax?


Because the OTA enters your mobile number and email address into the EI system when you book. Its a process similar to what screen grab websites do except this is fully authorised by Aer Lingus .


Why then does the airline offer a refund directly to the pax/
Flown on A300,A310,A318,A319,A320,A321,A330,B707,B720,B727,B737,B747,B757,B767,L382,L1011,C5,DC-3,DC8,
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:38 pm

dergay wrote:
OA260 wrote:
dergay wrote:
Somebody should tell Aer Lingus that - why do they send flight changes and cancellations direct to the pax?


Because the OTA enters your mobile number and email address into the EI system when you book. Its a process similar to what screen grab websites do except this is fully authorised by Aer Lingus .


Why then does the airline offer a refund directly to the pax/


The OTA either has a credit line with the airline or they pay the airline on the payment page with their own company credit card . So the airline refunds the original form of payment. In your case the third party you booked with.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:33 pm

Delta Air Lines dumps Shannon-New York link for 2021
Second US airline to halt seasonal services with west of Ireland airport


Shannon Airport has confirmed that Delta Air Lines will not resume its seasonal services to New York next year.
The blow follows June’s announcement that United Airlines also won’t relaunch its seasonal links with Shannon in 2021. Delta had used JFK Airport, United the Newark Airport across the Hudson River in New Jersey.

www.independent.ie/business/delta-air-l ... 68580.html
 
EI564
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 9:05 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:47 pm

OA260 wrote:
I was talking to someone very connected to the travel industry and aviation today and currently things look very bleak even if the government relaxed restrictions. The majority of Irish seem to be more cautious compared to the other EU nations and the UK with regards to travel this year. As things stand it seems 2020 is indeed written off for any meaningful travel as I sadly predicted back in March.

That's a fair point. The Green List is a bit of a red herring, since the vast majority of people aren't going to travel either way. But i'd still prefer it to exist than not. Its a flicker of hope.
 
Fliplot
Posts: 407
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:23 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:51 pm

A lot of dumping going on! Is this a general tidy up, a knee jerk reaction or a pause? Ultimately passengers will return! Question is will EI serve SNN direct or via a DUB feed?
 
User avatar
alancostello
Posts: 304
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:09 pm

Fliplot wrote:
A lot of dumping going on! Is this a general tidy up, a knee jerk reaction or a pause? Ultimately passengers will return! Question is will EI serve SNN direct or via a DUB feed?

I think most of it is due to the accelerated retirement of planes like the 757 and in some cases the 767 from fleets. That middle of the market plane, narrowbody capacity but long haul range, only really exists for legacy carriers now in something like the A321LR or XLR, the former aren’t with a lot of airlines yet, the latter won’t launch until 2023. We’ll see a lot of these routes come back once demand increases again and there is an appropriate plane for the market.

In some cases you might see something like Air Canada sending the 737 MAX 8 to DUB without a real business class, selling a domestic first product as international premium economy. However many carriers will be tied up in alliance and joint venture requirements. The OneWorld TA JV for example mandates flat beds on any transatlantic flight, so don’t expect to see AA following AC’s example.
 
dstc47
Posts: 1482
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 1999 3:53 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:47 am

Fliplot wrote:
A lot of dumping going on! Is this a general tidy up, a knee jerk reaction or a pause? Ultimately passengers will return! Question is will EI serve SNN direct or via a DUB feed?


Would that not be the ultimate Irish irony - a mandatory Dublin stopover on the way to Shannon?

However carriers that are being pessimistic about 2021 services are probably entirely correct, if they can survive until 2022.
So far most have been over optimistic about any speed of any recovery from this virus and of the level of supression in anything like normal conditions. Even with a proven, effective and long lasting vaccine, likely large numbers will not take it (in the USA particularly), or be able to access it in undeveloped countries. So outbreaks detected and undetected will exist. Yes, large number wish to travel, for good or bad reasons, but cancellations and closedowns make travel even to locations currently doing well a considerable risk, as those driving through the night across France recently probably can testify.

As far as I can reckon, this is the first time in over 50 years when I have not been on an aircraft in the last six months.
Are my feet itchy yes, do I feel for those in the industry, yes, but have I any flights booked for 2021, no.
 
Eirules
Posts: 1996
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:17 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:39 pm

Anyone know why there’s an AA flight sitting on the ground in Dublin now (about 6pm)?
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
EIEIDW
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:22 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:10 pm

Eirules wrote:
Anyone know why there’s an AA flight sitting on the ground in Dublin now (about 6pm)?


The DFW flights spend the night in DUB so the crew can rest I believe
 
Skyblue39
Posts: 500
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 9:34 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:33 pm

Passenger locator form is online from 26 August, confirms Minister

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0822/11607 ... ator-form/
 
EISG1129
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:43 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:24 pm

Hello all,

Long time reader of the forums, particularly the Irish thread, first time poster.

Had my first journey through DUB since early March this week. First time through the airport since the Covid-19 restrictions took hold, so some observations for those of you who may be interested. I took the short domestic journey with Aer Lingus Regional/Stobart Air from DUB-KIR earlier this week and then returned from KIR-DUB yesterday. Terminal 2 was the emptiest that I've ever seen it. I was able to walk straight up to a security screening point and was through in under 3 minutes. The Loop is open in T2 and certainly well staffed. However, at the time I was going out (early afternoon) the staff appeared to out-number the customers. Vast majority of facilities for passengers to grab something to eat or drink in T2 are still closed. I had to walk over to T1 after security to grab something to eat. There's certainly more open in T1 than in T2 - Marquette and Butler's Coffee in T1 were open and ticking over, but not particularly busy. Aer Lingus Lounge and East Lounge are still closed.

There’s certainly no shortage of hand sanitising points in either terminal, and a significant amount of signage reminding passengers about public health advice. All gates that I passed had every second seat marked as unavailable.

Less than 25 passengers on the outbound flight, and only approx. 10 passengers on the return flight. As soon as the door was closed on both flights, cabin crew went through the cabin and separated out passengers not travelling together to give everybody a bit more space. On both flights, announcements were made asking passengers not to queue in the aisle or galley for use of the lavatory. Passengers were also requested to press the call bell if use of the lavatory was needed. No in flight sales of food/drink, and no copies of Cara in seat pockets.

I noted that runways 16/34 and some taxiways also appear to be out of use at the moment. My outbound flight had to take a rather long route around the airfield to reach runway 10 on the outbound. I'm presuming that this is related to the ongoing building of the North runway?

On the return into DUB from KIR, I was surprised that all passengers were directed through immigration controls. I was an occasional user of the old RE service from SXL to DUB which finished in 2011 (if I recall correctly). It was practice at the time in T1 to direct passengers arriving on domestic flights through a side door to skip immigration controls on production of their boarding pass. Has this practice ceased?

I hope the above is of interest for those of you who, thanks to Covid-19, may not have been through DUB in the recent past.

EISG1129
 
EIEIDW
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:22 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:33 pm

EISG1129 wrote:

I noted that runways 16/34 and some taxiways also appear to be out of use at the moment. My outbound flight had to take a rather long route around the airfield to reach runway 10 on the outbound. I'm presuming that this is related to the ongoing building of the North runway?


EISG1129


Yes this is due to the construction of the north runway. RWY 16/34 will open up again when construction is complete
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:47 pm

EISG1129 wrote:

On the return into DUB from KIR, I was surprised that all passengers were directed through immigration controls. I was an occasional user of the old RE service from SXL to DUB which finished in 2011 (if I recall correctly). It was practice at the time in T1 to direct passengers arriving on domestic flights through a side door to skip immigration controls on production of their boarding pass. Has this practice ceased?


All passengers regardless of origin have had to clear via immigration for a long time now. With such a diminished Domestic network it would not be worth the hassle to offer anything different and if they are not willing to do it for CTA arrivals then there is little hope for a few Domestics.

Seems like Cara magazine has suspended publishing until further notice . I thought they may have produced a limited digital version but I presume its an expense thats been cut . Hopefully it comes back at some stage as it would be a shame to see it axed.

Your experiences mirror mine at DUB . Especially the ratio of duty free staff to passengers. I cant see them maintaining that staffing level.
 
EIEIDW
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:22 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sun Aug 23, 2020 7:40 am

Today sees the launch of LOTs Dublin - Warsaw route which runs 4x Weekly.
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:34 am

OA260 wrote:
EISG1129 wrote:

On the return into DUB from KIR, I was surprised that all passengers were directed through immigration controls. I was an occasional user of the old RE service from SXL to DUB which finished in 2011 (if I recall correctly). It was practice at the time in T1 to direct passengers arriving on domestic flights through a side door to skip immigration controls on production of their boarding pass. Has this practice ceased?


All passengers regardless of origin have had to clear via immigration for a long time now. With such a diminished Domestic network it would not be worth the hassle to offer anything different and if they are not willing to do it for CTA arrivals then there is little hope for a few Domestics.

Seems like Cara magazine has suspended publishing until further notice . I thought they may have produced a limited digital version but I presume its an expense thats been cut . Hopefully it comes back at some stage as it would be a shame to see it axed.

Your experiences mirror mine at DUB . Especially the ratio of duty free staff to passengers. I cant see them maintaining that staffing level.


Always wondered how that works if you walk upto the desk, having only something like a driver's license as your ID?
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:59 pm

Have done it many many times throughout UK & Ireland.... not an issue.
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:42 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Have done it many many times throughout UK & Ireland.... not an issue.


Intra-UK and Ireland->UK isn't an issue, though i know of someone who flew London->Dublin with just his BA work ID, and got a "don't do it again!" from immigration. I just wonder if their set-up is smart enough to know whether someone has arrived from Donegal or on an international flight, and wants to sneak into the country..
 
TUGMASTER
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:56 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:02 pm

Airline ID is legal on UK Ireland flights.
FlyBE used to accept all the time.
BA/EI too
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:12 pm

Acceptable Identification
If you’re a citizen of Ireland and/or Britain, you need to carry some form of official photo identification in order to be able to fly with us.

Note: To travel between Ireland and Britain with photo identification other than a passport, you must have been born in Ireland or the U.K. and also be a citizen of either country.

The following forms of photo identification are acceptable once they are in date:

Valid passport or Irish passport card
Driver’s licence with photo
International student card
Government issued photo ID cards
Health insurance cards with photo/social security cards with photo
Bus pass with photo
Work ID with photo
Citizens of Ireland and Britain under the age of 16 don’t need a photo ID if travelling with their parent/guardian.

Citizens of countries other than Ireland and Britain must produce a valid passport and visa where applicable for travel between Ireland and Britain.

www.aerlingus.com/travel-information/pa ... m-britain/
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:02 am

Kerry Airport steps up warning over 'bleak winter'

The boss of Kerry Airport has stepped up his warning about the financial outlook, saying it is facing "a bleak winter" as key flights to Manchester and Belin are withdrawn in the coming months.

www.irishexaminer.com/business/companie ... l?type=amp



Pilots accuse Government of ignoring aviation workers since Covid crisis began
Ialpa wants Government to implement recommendations of its own taskforce on aviation, which advocates lifting travel restrictions

Pilots are accusing the Government of ignoring aviation workers since the Covid-19 crisis began in March.

The Irish Airline Pilots’ Association (Ialpa) at the weekend welcomed publication of the Government’s Focus on Aerospace and Aviation, which highlights the need for cash aid for the industry to prevent mass redundancies.

www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-a ... 7?mode=amp
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:30 pm

Looks like Singapore are introducing some test on arrival countries. A grand total of two, for now. New Zealand and Brunei arrivals will not have to quarantine. I hope this will work well and become the blueprint for other countries.
https://loyaltylobby.com/2020/08/22/sin ... er-1-2020/

Meanwhile the UK have said that testing won't shorten quarantine from non-exempt countries. That probably means there will be a U-turn in the coming days! Some consistency and "following the science" would be nice. But listening to Today with Claire Byrne, I don't think Micheál has much room for manoeuvre right now.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:46 pm

OA260 wrote:
Acceptable Identification
If you’re a citizen of Ireland and/or Britain, you need to carry some form of official photo identification in order to be able to fly with us.

Note: To travel between Ireland and Britain with photo identification other than a passport, you must have been born in Ireland or the U.K. and also be a citizen of either country.

The following forms of photo identification are acceptable once they are in date:

Valid passport or Irish passport card
Driver’s licence with photo
International student card
Government issued photo ID cards
Health insurance cards with photo/social security cards with photo
Bus pass with photo
Work ID with photo
Citizens of Ireland and Britain under the age of 16 don’t need a photo ID if travelling with their parent/guardian.

Citizens of countries other than Ireland and Britain must produce a valid passport and visa where applicable for travel between Ireland and Britain.

http://www.aerlingus.com/travel-informa ... m-britain/


How is that going to work - other than a passport, none of those documents show citizenship status, or where a person was born (only that you would be a resident at the most)?
 
Vicenza
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:48 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Have done it many many times throughout UK & Ireland.... not an issue.


Intra-UK and Ireland->UK isn't an issue, though i know of someone who flew London->Dublin with just his BA work ID, and got a "don't do it again!" from immigration. I just wonder if their set-up is smart enough to know whether someone has arrived from Donegal or on an international flight, and wants to sneak into the country..


Actually, legally speaking, because it is a common travel area a passport is not required to travel between the UK and ROI, and never has been.
 
User avatar
metalinyoni
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:52 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:24 pm

Vicenza wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Have done it many many times throughout UK & Ireland.... not an issue.


Intra-UK and Ireland->UK isn't an issue, though i know of someone who flew London->Dublin with just his BA work ID, and got a "don't do it again!" from immigration. I just wonder if their set-up is smart enough to know whether someone has arrived from Donegal or on an international flight, and wants to sneak into the country..


Actually, legally speaking, because it is a common travel area a passport is not required to travel between the UK and ROI, and never has been.


Nevertheless, immigration in Dublin always insist on seeing my passport which is British. They never accept my UK drivers license because it says on it that I was born in Zimbabwe. I have never really worked out why immigration at Dublin airport is so strict but is non-existent in Dublin Port. I am sure there is a good reason.
300, 310, 319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 342, 343, 345, 346, 380, 707, 727, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 742, 74L, 743, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 772, 77L 773, 77W, D10, AT46, AT76, AT75, 142, DH3, ER4, AR1, AR8
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:41 pm

Vicenza wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Have done it many many times throughout UK & Ireland.... not an issue.


Intra-UK and Ireland->UK isn't an issue, though i know of someone who flew London->Dublin with just his BA work ID, and got a "don't do it again!" from immigration. I just wonder if their set-up is smart enough to know whether someone has arrived from Donegal or on an international flight, and wants to sneak into the country..


Actually, legally speaking, because it is a common travel area a passport is not required to travel between the UK and ROI, and never has been.


Only if you are born in GB or Ireland and are a citizen of one, or both countries. So metalinyoni's experience is correct and their passport is required, despite being a British Citizen.

How the immigration staff would know this, I don't know and how they would know where you are coming from without a boarding card I'm not sure either. As to why the procedures at Dublin port and Dublin airport differ - no idea.
 
JAmie2k9
Posts: 2031
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:15 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:37 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:

Intra-UK and Ireland->UK isn't an issue, though i know of someone who flew London->Dublin with just his BA work ID, and got a "don't do it again!" from immigration. I just wonder if their set-up is smart enough to know whether someone has arrived from Donegal or on an international flight, and wants to sneak into the country..


Actually, legally speaking, because it is a common travel area a passport is not required to travel between the UK and ROI, and never has been.


Only if you are born in GB or Ireland and are a citizen of one, or both countries. So metalinyoni's experience is correct and their passport is required, despite being a British Citizen.

How the immigration staff would know this, I don't know and how they would know where you are coming from without a boarding card I'm not sure either. As to why the procedures at Dublin port and Dublin airport differ - no idea.


They can check where you are coming from if you don't produce a borading pass if requested. The idea that immigration staff don't know where people are coming form is naive. They know a lot more than most think.

Dublin Port isn't a major issue plus Border Force in the UK would have likely captured people entering and flagged them if they are of interest to authorities here. All passengers in CTA have infomation passed to/from respective immegration authorites.

Those outside EU, data provided once they check-in:
· the number and type of the travel document used by him or her, as provided to the carrier concerned,
· his or her nationality, as provided to the carrier concerned,
· his or her full names, as provided to the carrier concerned,
· his or her date of birth, as provided to the carrier concerned,
· the port at which the person is to arrive in the State,
· the code of transport used,
· the scheduled departure and arrival times of the aircraft concerned,
· the total number of passengers carried on that aircraft, and
· the initial point of embarkation.

All they need is a passport scan to bring it up.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:53 pm

metalinyoni wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:

Intra-UK and Ireland->UK isn't an issue, though i know of someone who flew London->Dublin with just his BA work ID, and got a "don't do it again!" from immigration. I just wonder if their set-up is smart enough to know whether someone has arrived from Donegal or on an international flight, and wants to sneak into the country..


Actually, legally speaking, because it is a common travel area a passport is not required to travel between the UK and ROI, and never has been.


Nevertheless, immigration in Dublin always insist on seeing my passport which is British. They never accept my UK drivers license because it says on it that I was born in Zimbabwe. I have never really worked out why immigration at Dublin airport is so strict but is non-existent in Dublin Port. I am sure there is a good reason.


Oh, am not saying it is not done, am only stating that legally it is not required.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 246
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:06 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:

Intra-UK and Ireland->UK isn't an issue, though i know of someone who flew London->Dublin with just his BA work ID, and got a "don't do it again!" from immigration. I just wonder if their set-up is smart enough to know whether someone has arrived from Donegal or on an international flight, and wants to sneak into the country..


Actually, legally speaking, because it is a common travel area a passport is not required to travel between the UK and ROI, and never has been.


Only if you are born in GB or Ireland and are a citizen of one, or both countries. So metalinyoni's experience is correct and their passport is required, despite being a British Citizen.

How the immigration staff would know this, I don't know and how they would know where you are coming from without a boarding card I'm not sure either. As to why the procedures at Dublin port and Dublin airport differ - no idea.


I respectfully disagree, and a passport between ROI and the United Kingdom has never been a legal requirement. Now, I'm not stating it is never asked for regarding some passengers, but that is a different argument entirely. I'm not getting at all what you saying in regards to how would they know where you are coming from"......of course they know, and can see, where you are coming from by your Boarding Card. You wouldn't be arriving at Dublin airport without a Boarding Card. Indeed, they fact you mention this, and that Dublin port acts differently suggests to me that some of you are talking about different things. Note, I am talking about travel between ROI and United Kingdom, not that a British or Irish passport is not required when travelling from elsewhere. Indeed, the fact that one is not required when entering through Dublin port shows this....if it was a legal requirement it would also have to be done at Dublin port.
 
opticalilyushin
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:35 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:21 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Airline ID is legal on UK Ireland flights.
FlyBE used to accept all the time.
BA/EI too


It often depends on the airline. A few years ago Cityjet got quite twitchy when i tried (purely out of curiosity) to use my ID on DUB-LCY, so i whipped the passport out.

I know officially UK and Irish citizens are exempt from needing a passport, but if you technically may need to prove your citizenship, you may as well just bring a passport..
 
JAmie2k9
Posts: 2031
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:15 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:03 pm

Vicenza wrote:
BrianDromey wrote:
Vicenza wrote:

Actually, legally speaking, because it is a common travel area a passport is not required to travel between the UK and ROI, and never has been.


Only if you are born in GB or Ireland and are a citizen of one, or both countries. So metalinyoni's experience is correct and their passport is required, despite being a British Citizen.

How the immigration staff would know this, I don't know and how they would know where you are coming from without a boarding card I'm not sure either. As to why the procedures at Dublin port and Dublin airport differ - no idea.


I respectfully disagree, and a passport between ROI and the United Kingdom has never been a legal requirement. Now, I'm not stating it is never asked for regarding some passengers, but that is a different argument entirely. I'm not getting at all what you saying in regards to how would they know where you are coming from"......of course they know, and can see, where you are coming from by your Boarding Card. You wouldn't be arriving at Dublin airport without a Boarding Card. Indeed, they fact you mention this, and that Dublin port acts differently suggests to me that some of you are talking about different things. Note, I am talking about travel between ROI and United Kingdom, not that a British or Irish passport is not required when travelling from elsewhere. Indeed, the fact that one is not required when entering through Dublin port shows this....if it was a legal requirement it would also have to be done at Dublin port.


Passport is a legal requirement for non-citizens or UK/Ireland.

This has been down before, checks at Airports were added to the legalisation in 1990s to have checks on non Irish/British citizens who were traveling CTA.

These checks can apply at Dublin Port and if you look at the ferry operators terms and conditions they clearly state only Irish/British citizens don't need a passport to travel. Everyone else needs a passport.

There is no difference to air/sea travel in terms of documentation. Inspections are irrelevant.
Last edited by JAmie2k9 on Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
JAmie2k9
Posts: 2031
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:15 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:11 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Airline ID is legal on UK Ireland flights.
FlyBE used to accept all the time.
BA/EI too


It often depends on the airline. A few years ago Cityjet got quite twitchy when i tried (purely out of curiosity) to use my ID on DUB-LCY, so i whipped the passport out.

I know officially UK and Irish citizens are exempt from needing a passport, but if you technically may need to prove your citizenship, you may as well just bring a passport..


Indeed the onus is on the passenger to prove their citizenship and a passport does this.

Ryanair applying a rule of accepting passports only saves a lot of hassle. Ground staff are often unsure whats acceptable ID at times.
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25161
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:25 am

Aviation hit from Covid puts 30,000 jobs at risk
Just 24 routes remain in service at Cork out of the 52 last year

The Covid-19 pandemic will cost Irish airports and the aviation-tourism supply chain sector more than €8bn, according to a study prepared by officials at the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation, and 2021 could be worse unless the Government and EU urgently develop 'safe travel' corridors.

https://amp.independent.ie/business/job ... 75627.html



Currently Dublin Airport expect Aeroflot , Eurowings, Icelandair , Norwegian, Sun Express and Transavia to resume flights in September.

www.dublinairport.com/latest-news/2020/ ... in-Airport
 
BrianDromey
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:23 am

Re: Irish 8/20: Angst in August

Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:46 am

Vicenza wrote:
I'm not getting at all what you saying in regards to how would they know where you are coming from"......of course they know, and can see, where you are coming from by your Boarding Card. You wouldn't be arriving at Dublin airport without a Boarding Card. Indeed, they fact you mention this, and that Dublin port acts differently suggests to me that some of you are talking about different things. Note, I am talking about travel between ROI and United Kingdom, not that a British or Irish passport is not required when travelling from elsewhere. Indeed, the fact that one is not required when entering through Dublin port shows this....if it was a legal requirement it would also have to be done at Dublin port.


I think the point is that at DUB and ORK (not sure about other airports) arrivals from the CTA mix with arrivals from non-CTA countries. By the time passengers get to the immigration hall it is impossible to know where those passengers are coming from, unless they tell the staff at in the booths. So, if you presented your Driving License the staff would need some sort of indication where you are coming from. Clearly this is not an impossible task and FR require a passport anyway, but the point remains that it would be very difficult for the individual border agent to know that the specific passenger in front of them was arriving from a CTA destination unless they are told by the passenger.

The set-up at Dublin port is more similar to the UK CTA arrivals procedure, in that the passengers and vehicles pass through the immigration facilities before they have mixed with other ships.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 747d10, afterburner33, AH45, arfbool, Blerg, Ertro, Google [Bot], Jos227, Lukas757, MAH4546, MSJYOP28Apilot, panamair, SASViking, sdexplorer00, Strato2, syan, Theseus, withak, zkncj and 147 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos