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x1234
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Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:10 pm

I was just reading the history of Northwest Airlines and apparently Northwest was called Northwest Orient during a period in time. Why did NW change its name to NW Orient? Was it because it pioneered the trans-Pacific route to Tokyo & Manila in the early days and the majority of international was to East Asia?
 
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PPVLC
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:38 pm

Yes, that was the reason, they were well established in those routes and added the "Orient" for branding purposes, the corporate name was still Northwest Airlines. They dropped the Orient in the 1980s.
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sunking737
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:21 am

Orient was dropped after the merger with MSP based Republic Airlines
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MIflyer12
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:30 am

The Northwest Orient trade name goes way back: https://airlinefiles.com/american-airli ... ?showall=1

And the un-Orient-ation: viewtopic.php?t=39761
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:54 am

It was also dropped because the word "Orient" has certain inappropriate connotations and is, among other things, a generic, Colonial era reference to the entire region and by the time NW dropped it, it was no longer a term that should be used to reference Asia.
 
tootallsd
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:43 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
It was also dropped because the word "Orient" has certain inappropriate connotations and is, among other things, a generic, Colonial era reference to the entire region and by the time NW dropped it, it was no longer a term that should be used to reference Asia.


I definitely agree with your statement and the characterization of the use of the word orient. However it was replaced by the also unfortunate NWA logo -- made me first think of the rap group of the same name.
 
acentauri
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:17 am

Northwest, American, Delta, United, etc., exude about 1% of the excitement of Northwest Orient, Pan Am or TWA. The latter were all in a whole different league of air travel, none of which will likely ever pass this way again. :crying: :crying:
 
alfa164
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:08 am

acentauri wrote:
Northwest, American, Delta, United, etc., exude about 1% of the excitement of Northwest Orient, Pan Am or TWA. The latter were all in a whole different league of air travel, none of which will likely ever pass this way again. :crying: :crying:


You do realize that "Northwest" and "Northwest Orient" were exactly the same airline, and the "Orient" moniker was used only for marketing purposes, don't you?

And while I cannot argue that flying has become much less enjoyable as it has become affordable for us masses, I don't think the "excitement" was a result of the chosen airline, but was much more a result of the era.
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:57 am

alfa164 wrote:
acentauri wrote:
Northwest, American, Delta, United, etc., exude about 1% of the excitement of Northwest Orient, Pan Am or TWA. The latter were all in a whole different league of air travel, none of which will likely ever pass this way again. :crying: :crying:


You do realize that "Northwest" and "Northwest Orient" were exactly the same airline, and the "Orient" moniker was used only for marketing purposes, don't you?

And while I cannot argue that flying has become much less enjoyable as it has become affordable for us masses, I don't think the "excitement" was a result of the chosen airline, but was much more a result of the era.


I think what he meant was Northwest post Republic merger/Al Checchi take over.
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:36 am

Northwest Orient had a great jingle with the "The World Is Going Our Way" ad campaign. It was my favorite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_4_3ft8W_w
 
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:05 am

tootallsd wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
It was also dropped because the word "Orient" has certain inappropriate connotations and is, among other things, a generic, Colonial era reference to the entire region and by the time NW dropped it, it was no longer a term that should be used to reference Asia.


I definitely agree with your statement and the characterization of the use of the word orient. However it was replaced by the also unfortunate NWA logo -- made me first think of the rap group of the same name.


There was a 17-year gap between dropping "Orient" and adopting the "nwa" logo. That said, Northwest had generally been long-referred to as NWA decades before the rap group that shared the acronym came into being.
 
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:34 am

There were several other carriers that changed or altered their names when they began new routes. Western Airlines added "International" to their name for a short time in the late 1960's as they were flying routes to Mexico. Trans Texas Airways changed to Texas International in 1969 when they added routes to Mexico as well. It was the thing to do back then.
 
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:39 pm

B727skyguy wrote:
Northwest Orient had a great jingle with the "The World Is Going Our Way" ad campaign. It was my favorite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_4_3ft8W_w


I prefer the radio jingle; eating my breakfast before heading to school.

https://youtu.be/dxcMUWbqu44
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:54 pm

acentauri wrote:
Northwest, American, Delta, United, etc., exude about 1% of the excitement of Northwest Orient, Pan Am or TWA. The latter were all in a whole different league of air travel, none of which will likely ever pass this way again. :crying: :crying:


Northwest and Northwest Orient were the same company. I would agree that Pan Am and TWA were in class by themselves. United, Delta, and American have each pioneered different things at different stages of global aviation's development. Northwest was one of the two US carriers to open up TPAC travel but I would hardly classify them in the same league as PA or TW in terms of legacy.
 
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:17 pm

jfklganyc wrote:

It was dropped because after the Republic addition they wanted to be thought of as more that an airline that flies to Asia. They were an airline with 3 domestic hubs


Also, by then they had a nice network to Europe as well
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Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:24 pm

The ad's I remember said "Northwest Orient Air Lines - the Fan Jet Airline". Both on the radio and on billboards. Only flight on a B-720B was on NWA from CLE to ORD. If I recall it was 5 abreast in Coach. Fare was about $18 on student stand by
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:34 pm

    DFW17L wrote:
    B727skyguy wrote:
    Northwest Orient had a great jingle with the "The World Is Going Our Way" ad campaign. It was my favorite.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_4_3ft8W_w


    I prefer the radio jingle; eating my breakfast before heading to school.

    https://youtu.be/dxcMUWbqu44


    God, I remember those! Living in the DC burbs, we had them on air, what with NW003/004 in particular in/out of IAD; and clearly this was one, given it's plugging NW078/079 to/from SEA! Thanks for the link; while listening to it, this TV ad also came up which I think is a GREAT one...love the jingle to this! ...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuB5QIgOmxE
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    KlimaBXsst
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:29 pm

    When Northwest Orient rebranded to Northwest, their International cache really took a hit and seemed to become far less.

    Even if untrue in terms of Pacific Route growth or stagnation with this rebrand.
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    Polot
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:26 pm

    KlimaBXsst wrote:
    When Northwest Orient rebranded to Northwest, their International cache really took a hit and seemed to become far less.

    Even if untrue in terms of Pacific Route growth or stagnation with this rebrand.

    I think that appearance had less to do with the rebrand, and more to do with the fact that as new competition emerged with bilaterals loosening their TPAC presence held less cachet. It became expected that a large global North American/Asian airline would have TPAC routes. In the late 80s/90s all the big legacy carriers except US were trying to expand in Asia (CO via HNL/GUM, DL via PDX, etc).

    As others had stated part of the purpose of the rebrand was to remove some of that Asian focus in the brand so they could market their suddenly much larger domestic network (thanks to Republic) and growing European operation better. They didn’t want people thinking NW was only good for going to Asia, with imo mixed results.
     
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sat Aug 01, 2020 8:42 pm

    x1234 wrote:
    I was just reading the history of Northwest Airlines and apparently Northwest was called Northwest Orient during a period in time. Why did NW change its name to NW Orient? Was it because it pioneered the trans-Pacific route to Tokyo & Manila in the early days and the majority of international was to East Asia?

    It was a marketing move to give NW a more exotic feel.
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    Cointrin330
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:11 pm

    KlimaBXsst wrote:
    When Northwest Orient rebranded to Northwest, their International cache really took a hit and seemed to become far less.

    Even if untrue in terms of Pacific Route growth or stagnation with this rebrand.


    Did Northwest ever have "cache"? Don't get me wrong. Northwest had a good legacy and was a hometown favorite in MSP but it never quite reached the level of aviation icon that other US airlines, notably Pan Am and TWA, reached. The brand never really had a premium feel to it.
     
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:31 pm

    Northwest knew that Asia was its bread and butter differentiator, so Orient seemed logical IMO, even as displayed on domestic aircraft. But what I would like to know is what was up with that all red tail? Very stark! That couldn't have been chosen among other livery proposals. It must have meant something.
     
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:31 pm

    Cointrin330 wrote:
    KlimaBXsst wrote:
    When Northwest Orient rebranded to Northwest, their International cachet really took a hit and seemed to become far less.

    Even if untrue in terms of Pacific Route growth or stagnation with this rebrand.


    Did Northwest ever have "cache(t)"? Don't get me wrong. Northwest had a good legacy and was a hometown favorite in MSP but it never quite reached the level of aviation icon that other US airlines, notably Pan Am and TWA, reached. The brand never really had a premium feel to it.


    Northwest Orient always had the feel of “largeness” across the Pacific with their 747s and DC10s. A feel and sense of “national-ness” on the scale of Air New Zealand or BCAL.
    Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
     
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:38 pm

    KlimaBXsst wrote:
    Cointrin330 wrote:
    KlimaBXsst wrote:
    When Northwest Orient rebranded to Northwest, their International cachet really took a hit and seemed to become far less.

    Even if untrue in terms of Pacific Route growth or stagnation with this rebrand.


    Did Northwest ever have "cache(t)"? Don't get me wrong. Northwest had a good legacy and was a hometown favorite in MSP but it never quite reached the level of aviation icon that other US airlines, notably Pan Am and TWA, reached. The brand never really had a premium feel to it.


    Northwest Orient always had the feel of “largeness” across the Pacific with their 747s and DC10s. A feel and sense of “national-ness” on the scale of Air New Zealand or BCAL.

    That depends on perspective. As someone who grew up on the east coast US (where NW had a weak presence) I never viewed them as having a sense of “largeness” and certainly not “national-ness” considering NW was all but absent in many important domestic routes (ie transcons) and regions.

    TYWoolman wrote:
    Northwest knew that Asia was its bread and butter differentiator, so Orient seemed logical IMO, even as displayed on domestic aircraft. But what I would like to know is what was up with that all red tail? Very stark! That couldn't have been chosen among other livery proposals. It must have meant something.

    IIRC NW’s founder or early leader wanted NW planes to stand out and be immediately identifiable at an airport in any weather condition, hence the solid red tails.
     
    acentauri
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:59 am

    alfa164 wrote:
    acentauri wrote:
    Northwest, American, Delta, United, etc., exude about 1% of the excitement of Northwest Orient, Pan Am or TWA. The latter were all in a whole different league of air travel, none of which will likely ever pass this way again. :crying: :crying:


    You do realize that "Northwest" and "Northwest Orient" were exactly the same airline, and the "Orient" moniker was used only for marketing purposes, don't you?

    And while I cannot argue that flying has become much less enjoyable as it has become affordable for us masses, I don't think the "excitement" was a result of the chosen airline, but was much more a result of the era.

    None of this anet "nit-picking" has any relevance to the historical significance of a now "dead" time in aviation history. Northwest didn't achieve it's negative nickname "Northworst" because it was in any way similar to the long term legacy of Northwest Orient.
     
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:45 am

    acentauri wrote:
    Northwest, American, Delta, United, etc., exude about 1% of the excitement of Northwest Orient, Pan Am or TWA. The latter were all in a whole different league of air travel, none of which will likely ever pass this way again.

    Sure it would, if the average traveler would pay the prices for travel back in that era.

    But no, they'd rather cry about it online, then go web-search for a $199 roundtrip transcon.
    I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
     
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:02 pm

    Polot wrote:

    TYWoolman wrote:
    Northwest knew that Asia was its bread and butter differentiator, so Orient seemed logical IMO, even as displayed on domestic aircraft. But what I would like to know is what was up with that all red tail? Very stark! That couldn't have been chosen among other livery proposals. It must have meant something.

    IIRC NW’s founder or early leader wanted NW planes to stand out and be immediately identifiable at an airport in any weather condition, hence the solid red tails.


    Makes sense as they were more exposed to the colder, snowy elements of the northern half of U.S., especially when aircraft tails were a lot smaller in size.
     
    MohawkWeekend
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    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

    Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:30 pm

    Red tails would stand out on the props but Northwest Orient never seemed to wash their aircraft back then (compared to other carriers) Those early jets smoked like crazy - check out some YouTube videos. The tails of the 727's and DC-9 weren't that red with kerosene soot covering them. Dirty birds I say.
    Last edited by MohawkWeekend on Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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      Cointrin330
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      Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

      Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:33 pm

      Polot wrote:
      KlimaBXsst wrote:
      Cointrin330 wrote:

      Did Northwest ever have "cache(t)"? Don't get me wrong. Northwest had a good legacy and was a hometown favorite in MSP but it never quite reached the level of aviation icon that other US airlines, notably Pan Am and TWA, reached. The brand never really had a premium feel to it.


      Northwest Orient always had the feel of “largeness” across the Pacific with their 747s and DC10s. A feel and sense of “national-ness” on the scale of Air New Zealand or BCAL.

      That depends on perspective. As someone who grew up on the east coast US (where NW had a weak presence) I never viewed them as having a sense of “largeness” and certainly not “national-ness” considering NW was all but absent in many important domestic routes (ie transcons) and regions.

      TYWoolman wrote:
      Northwest knew that Asia was its bread and butter differentiator, so Orient seemed logical IMO, even as displayed on domestic aircraft. But what I would like to know is what was up with that all red tail? Very stark! That couldn't have been chosen among other livery proposals. It must have meant something.

      IIRC NW’s founder or early leader wanted NW planes to stand out and be immediately identifiable at an airport in any weather condition, hence the solid red tails.


      Northwest didn't have a significant presence on the East Coast, except to feed into its DTW, MSP, and MEM hubs, and a direct, nonstop between JFK and NRT, which was known to be a loss leading flight (sort of prestige route with no feed) but also at a time when flying to Asia from the East Coast was still challenging with the equipment available at the time, and much less competition overall than the world immediately pre-COVID. It also had a small number of flights from JFK to DTW to feed the DTW-Asia network and advertised it as such. NW did at one time in the early 1980s have a larger footprint at JFK with some TATL service to places in Scandinavia and the UK and it later shifted planes and assets to develop a gateway at BOS. What NW was known for beyond its red tails, was that it was one of two US airlines that pioneered TPAC flying, was the first to fly the 747-400 in 1989 and likely the last time a US airline would make a splash with a 747 in its branding and marketing. NW was also a hometown favorite in MSP (less so in DTW where it grew on the back of the Republic Airlines acquisition). It launched "world business class" in parallel with KL and launched the first and for a while the most successful TATL JV with KL long prior to that. NW was not however known for service innovations, lacked a true premium feeling product (it simply followed the industry, didn't set the pace), and was grossly mismanaged for decades, and almost collapsed financially in the early 1990s. It flew an old fleet (extremely well maintained and upgraded cabins though), a practice that continued long past the DL merger). The DTW terminal was (and still is) a very enjoyable place to fly through. Overall though, NW was nothing to write home about. It had holes all over its route map, more so than any other major intercontinental US airline except for maybe Pan Am and TWA. It is not a brand that is quite as romanticized as PA, TW, or some others that have come and gone.
       
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      cathay747
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      Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

      Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:19 pm

      Cointrin330 wrote:
      Northwest didn't have a significant presence on the East Coast, except to feed into its DTW, MSP, and MEM hubs, and a direct, nonstop between JFK and NRT, which was known to be a loss leading flight (sort of prestige route with no feed) but also at a time when flying to Asia from the East Coast was still challenging with the equipment available at the time, and much less competition overall than the world immediately pre-COVID. It also had a small number of flights from JFK to DTW to feed the DTW-Asia network and advertised it as such. NW did at one time in the early 1980s have a larger footprint at JFK with some TATL service to places in Scandinavia and the UK and it later shifted planes and assets to develop a gateway at BOS. What NW was known for beyond its red tails, was that it was one of two US airlines that pioneered TPAC flying, was the first to fly the 747-400 in 1989 and likely the last time a US airline would make a splash with a 747 in its branding and marketing. NW was also a hometown favorite in MSP (less so in DTW where it grew on the back of the Republic Airlines acquisition). It launched "world business class" in parallel with KL and launched the first and for a while the most successful TATL JV with KL long prior to that. NW was not however known for service innovations, lacked a true premium feeling product (it simply followed the industry, didn't set the pace), and was grossly mismanaged for decades, and almost collapsed financially in the early 1990s. It flew an old fleet (extremely well maintained and upgraded cabins though), a practice that continued long past the DL merger). The DTW terminal was (and still is) a very enjoyable place to fly through. Overall though, NW was nothing to write home about. It had holes all over its route map, more so than any other major intercontinental US airline except for maybe Pan Am and TWA. It is not a brand that is quite as romanticized as PA, TW, or some others that have come and gone.


      A great overview of NW's plusses & minuses, but on the latter, you neglected to mention their historically appalling labor relations which IIRC were as bad as National's and also IIRC were due entirely to good ole Don Nyrop and continued past his reign because he created a "poisonous culture".
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      ozark1
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      Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

      Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:17 pm

      I just retired after 43 years in the industry. A very small part of that time was as a reservations agent. I remember being told to attempt to refrain from booking anyone on NW because, like NA, they always seemed to be going on strike.
      With that being said and having been an airline geek my entire life. Northwest Orient, The Fanjet Airline and Fly Deltas Big Jets, are 2 slogans that bring pleasant nostalgia to me, for some reason. Some excellent photographer recently had a photo of an A220 (could be wrong) taking off from ATL with the Big Jets slogan on the hangar in the background. I would love to see a Delta DC8 doing that.
      Northwest Orients route system always fascinated me. At one time they had DC10s going between places like ATL and TPA/MIA and MKE to Florida among other places. Yet their coverage of the Dakotas and Montana remained forever. I recall flying a 720 from ORD to BIL in the 70s. It was packed so they must have done well financially on those. Too bad we broke down in BIL and I ended up driving to GTF, my final destination! Have a great day everyone.
       
      bfitzflyer
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      Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

      Sun Aug 02, 2020 3:07 pm

      Cointrin330 wrote:
      Polot wrote:
      KlimaBXsst wrote:

      Northwest didn't have a significant presence on the East Coast, except to feed into its DTW, MSP, and MEM hubs, and a direct, nonstop between JFK and NRT, which was known to be a loss leading flight (sort of prestige route with no feed) but also at a time when flying to Asia from the East Coast was still challenging with the equipment available at the time, and much less competition overall than the world immediately pre-COVID. It also had a small number of flights from JFK to DTW to feed the DTW-Asia network and advertised it as such. NW did at one time in the early 1980s have a larger footprint at JFK with some TATL service to places in Scandinavia and the UK and it later shifted planes and assets to develop a gateway at BOS. What NW was known for beyond its red tails, was that it was one of two US airlines that pioneered TPAC flying, was the first to fly the 747-400 in 1989 and likely the last time a US airline would make a splash with a 747 in its branding and marketing. NW was also a hometown favorite in MSP (less so in DTW where it grew on the back of the Republic Airlines acquisition). It launched "world business class" in parallel with KL and launched the first and for a while the most successful TATL JV with KL long prior to that. NW was not however known for service innovations, lacked a true premium feeling product (it simply followed the industry, didn't set the pace), and was grossly mismanaged for decades, and almost collapsed financially in the early 1990s. It flew an old fleet (extremely well maintained and upgraded cabins though), a practice that continued long past the DL merger). The DTW terminal was (and still is) a very enjoyable place to fly through. Overall though, NW was nothing to write home about. It had holes all over its route map, more so than any other major intercontinental US airline except for maybe Pan Am and TWA. It is not a brand that is quite as romanticized as PA, TW, or some others that have come and gone.


      I think this is a tad misleading. NW had a hub at Boston, NW at one had a hub at DCA and in TPA. Were they like the mega carriers of today with presence just about everywhere, absolutely not, but every carrier had holes in their network. NW was one of the 3 pioneers of international flying alongside PA and TW. I think because their international route system was largely built on Asia and not as much in Europe, and not NYC based they tend to be over looked. Beyond some of the things listed above:

        They operated 53 747's in total, 2nd only to United.
          They were the first US airline to fly the A320.
            They even helped form Japan Airlines.
              They also had the largest dedicated cargo fleet.
                First Nonstop service to China from the US

                I am sure there are many more, but those come to mind.
                 
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                Polot
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                Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:42 pm

                bfitzflyer wrote:
                Cointrin330 wrote:
                Polot wrote:


                I think this is a tad misleading. NW had a hub at Boston, NW at one had a hub at DCA and in TPA. Were they like the mega carriers of today with presence just about everywhere, absolutely not, but every carrier had holes in their network. NW was one of the 3 pioneers of international flying alongside PA and TW. I think because their international route system was largely built on Asia and not as much in Europe, and not NYC based they tend to be over looked. Beyond some of the things listed above:

                  They operated 53 747's in total, 2nd only to United.
                    They were the first US airline to fly the A320.
                      They even helped form Japan Airlines.
                        They also had the largest dedicated cargo fleet.
                          First Nonstop service to China from the US

                          I am sure there are many more, but those come to mind.


                          NW’s BOS/DCA/TPA were so short lived (less so BOS) and shifted around so much they did little to bolster the NW brand on the east coast. They also of course had MEM, but it was such a shadow of US/CLT and DL/ATL (which were 2-3+x the size of NW’s MEM peak including Airlink) that nobody in the southeast really gave it much thought, and neither did NW honestly.
                           
                          wernerga3
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                          Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                          Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:52 pm

                          I researched NW orient 747s, and during their first cabin refresh in the late 70s, they changed the upper deck lounge to become sleeper seats even though they were non salable. It was considered a first class lounge where you could reserve a sleeper seat in advance, and go upstairs to sleep, but it was not 1:1 since there were only 11 upper deck bed seats and many more first class seats downstairs. Kind of like the equivalent of an upcharge for a berth in the 50s, except it was free- just needed to be reserved.

                          This was pretty interesting to me for the time since they were the first to try it. It was right before JAL added the sky sleeper beds upstairs when they refreshed their 747 upper deck for the first time, and of course PAA and TWA were introducing their sleeper chairs right around the same time in first as well.

                          Upstairs would later become executive class for NWA and the sleeper seats would be installed in first class instead making the original upstairs sleeper lounge superfluous.
                          Last edited by wernerga3 on Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
                           
                          MIAFLLPBIFlyer
                          Posts: 498
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                          Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                          Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:54 pm

                          Polot wrote:
                          bfitzflyer wrote:
                          Cointrin330 wrote:


                          I think this is a tad misleading. NW had a hub at Boston, NW at one had a hub at DCA and in TPA. Were they like the mega carriers of today with presence just about everywhere, absolutely not, but every carrier had holes in their network. NW was one of the 3 pioneers of international flying alongside PA and TW. I think because their international route system was largely built on Asia and not as much in Europe, and not NYC based they tend to be over looked. Beyond some of the things listed above:

                            They operated 53 747's in total, 2nd only to United.
                              They were the first US airline to fly the A320.
                                They even helped form Japan Airlines.
                                  They also had the largest dedicated cargo fleet.
                                    First Nonstop service to China from the US

                                    I am sure there are many more, but those come to mind.


                                    NW’s BOS/DCA/TPA were so short lived (less so BOS) and shifted around so much they did little to bolster the NW brand on the east coast. They also of course had MEM, but it was such a shadow of US/CLT and DL/ATL (which were 2-3+x the size of NW’s MEM peak including Airlink) that nobody in the southeast really gave it much thought, and neither did NW honestly.


                                    TPA operation was downsized dramatically after the merger with Republic. Prior to that NW really competed with DL & EA for traffic from the midwest to TPA and also flew TPA-LAX-NRT IIRC at one point. DCA was short-lived after EA went under and NW acquired a number of DCA slots. BOS lasted longer, of and on for about 15 years. Also at one point either in 1979 or 1980, NW tried TPA/MCO/FLL/MIA-JFK IIRC to feed some new European routes.
                                     
                                    bfitzflyer
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                                    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                    Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:21 pm

                                    Listen wasn't saying they were an East coast powerhouse. They are however an airline with a lot of accomplishments that somehow seem to get played down.
                                     
                                    jfk777
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                                    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                    Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:44 pm

                                    Northwest was pioneering to Asia thus the name "Northwest Orient", later they expanded to Europe. There was a need to be more worldly than stress one area. Northwest made the pionering alliance with KLM which Delta maintains to this day with about 20 flights daily to Amsterdam.
                                     
                                    tlewis95
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                                    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                    Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:01 pm

                                    I love the old bowling shoe paint scheme they used to have.
                                     
                                    TXL4ever
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                                    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                    Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:12 pm

                                    Guess dropping Orient helped their expansion in Europe. I remember flying with my family to the US in 1984 on N601US - NW‘s very first 747 - and my mom asked my dad why an airline from the Middle East would fly from Europe to the U.S.
                                     
                                    superjeff
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                                    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                    Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:57 pm

                                    Northwest was one of the "Legacy" airlines in the U.S. Their Asian service was pioneering, in the same sense as Pan Am (which also flew to Europe and Latin America), TWA (Europe), and Braniff (South America). Donald Nyrop had a reputation as a cheapskate (there's a legend that T he offered his employees of a choice of air conditioning or windows for their new corporate headquarters in MSP; they chose AC, so there were no windows in the building), and also that Northwest often made more money by being on strike and collecting from the old Mutual Aid Plan, which all of the other trunk carriers except Delta belonged to and participated in. They did have a reputation for good inflight service. Flew them many times, including trans-Pacific (TPE-HND-HNL) and trans-Atlantic (MSP-AMS-DTW) and also domestic, before and after the Republic acquisition, and always enjoyed flying with them.
                                     
                                    Cointrin330
                                    Posts: 2017
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                                    Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                    Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:10 am

                                    bfitzflyer wrote:
                                    Cointrin330 wrote:
                                    Polot wrote:


                                    I think this is a tad misleading. NW had a hub at Boston, NW at one had a hub at DCA and in TPA. Were they like the mega carriers of today with presence just about everywhere, absolutely not, but every carrier had holes in their network. NW was one of the 3 pioneers of international flying alongside PA and TW. I think because their international route system was largely built on Asia and not as much in Europe, and not NYC based they tend to be over looked. Beyond some of the things listed above:

                                      They operated 53 747's in total, 2nd only to United.
                                        They were the first US airline to fly the A320.
                                          They even helped form Japan Airlines.
                                            They also had the largest dedicated cargo fleet.
                                              First Nonstop service to China from the US

                                              I am sure there are many more, but those come to mind.


                                              These are all true. What I was saying is that Northwest never quite achieved was the type of brand ethos and aviation icon that Pan Am and TWA enjoyed, in spite of their respective decades of mismanagement and financial difficulties.
                                               
                                              Max Q
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                                              Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                              Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:49 am

                                              superjeff wrote:
                                              Northwest was one of the "Legacy" airlines in the U.S. Their Asian service was pioneering, in the same sense as Pan Am (which also flew to Europe and Latin America), TWA (Europe), and Braniff (South America). Donald Nyrop had a reputation as a cheapskate (there's a legend that T he offered his employees of a choice of air conditioning or windows for their new corporate headquarters in MSP; they chose AC, so there were no windows in the building), and also that Northwest often made more money by being on strike and collecting from the old Mutual Aid Plan, which all of the other trunk carriers except Delta belonged to and participated in. They did have a reputation for good inflight service. Flew them many times, including trans-Pacific (TPE-HND-HNL) and trans-Atlantic (MSP-AMS-DTW) and also domestic, before and after the Republic acquisition, and always enjoyed flying with them.



                                              Northwest was a great airline with many strengths it was notable for and well respected however it did not have a ‘reputation for good service’


                                              Quite the opposite
                                              The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


                                              GGg
                                               
                                              superjeff
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                                              Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                              Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:10 pm

                                              Max Q wrote:
                                              superjeff wrote:
                                              Northwest was one of the "Legacy" airlines in the U.S. Their Asian service was pioneering, in the same sense as Pan Am (which also flew to Europe and Latin America), TWA (Europe), and Braniff (South America). Donald Nyrop had a reputation as a cheapskate (there's a legend that T he offered his employees of a choice of air conditioning or windows for their new corporate headquarters in MSP; they chose AC, so there were no windows in the building), and also that Northwest often made more money by being on strike and collecting from the old Mutual Aid Plan, which all of the other trunk carriers except Delta belonged to and participated in. They did have a reputation for good inflight service. Flew them many times, including trans-Pacific (TPE-HND-HNL) and trans-Atlantic (MSP-AMS-DTW) and also domestic, before and after the Republic acquisition, and always enjoyed flying with them.



                                              Northwest was a great airline with many strengths it was notable for and well respected however it did not have a ‘reputation for good service’

                                              Maybe depended on routes and where you were. I grew up in HNL, so any flight with Northwest was long haul and the service was excellent. I can remember course-by-course meal service in Economy (on the short-lived HNL-ORD route back in 1969 or so). Later on, on mainland service, on a lunch flight in First class on a 727-100, they served a tuna salad which still had the tin can :-(.

                                              Quite the opposite
                                               
                                              bfitzflyer
                                              Posts: 412
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                                              Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                              Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:42 pm

                                              Max Q wrote:
                                              superjeff wrote:
                                              Northwest was one of the "Legacy" airlines in the U.S. Their Asian service was pioneering, in the same sense as Pan Am (which also flew to Europe and Latin America), TWA (Europe), and Braniff (South America). Donald Nyrop had a reputation as a cheapskate (there's a legend that T he offered his employees of a choice of air conditioning or windows for their new corporate headquarters in MSP; they chose AC, so there were no windows in the building), and also that Northwest often made more money by being on strike and collecting from the old Mutual Aid Plan, which all of the other trunk carriers except Delta belonged to and participated in. They did have a reputation for good inflight service. Flew them many times, including trans-Pacific (TPE-HND-HNL) and trans-Atlantic (MSP-AMS-DTW) and also domestic, before and after the Republic acquisition, and always enjoyed flying with them.



                                              Northwest was a great airline with many strengths it was notable for and well respected however it did not have a ‘reputation for good service’


                                              Quite the opposite


                                              From the Republic merger on I would agree, not the best service prior to that they had pretty good service.
                                               
                                              brilondon
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                                              Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                              Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:29 pm

                                              Cointrin330 wrote:
                                              It was also dropped because the word "Orient" has certain inappropriate connotations and is, among other things, a generic, Colonial era reference to the entire region and by the time NW dropped it, it was no longer a term that should be used to reference Asia.

                                              When they dropped the "Orient" from the name, that kind of thinking wasn't as prevalent in society. It was more due to branding and marketing of that brand. They were moving into European markets and wanted a fresh approach to their brand.
                                              Rush forever Closer To My Heart
                                               
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                                              tjwgrr
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                                              Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                              Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:41 pm

                                              MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
                                              TPA operation was downsized dramatically after the merger with Republic. Prior to that NW really competed with DL & EA for traffic from the midwest to TPA and also flew TPA-LAX-NRT IIRC at one point. DCA was short-lived after EA went under and NW acquired a number of DCA slots. BOS lasted longer, of and on for about 15 years. Also at one point either in 1979 or 1980, NW tried TPA/MCO/FLL/MIA-JFK IIRC to feed some new European routes.


                                              Returning from our Jamaican honeymoon in September 1986, my new bride and I flew:
                                              MBJ-MIA JM 727-200
                                              MIA-TPA NW DC-10-40 (I think the aircraft continued to MSP)
                                              TPA-DTW NW 727-200
                                              DTW-GRR NW 727-200

                                              Although it was such a short flight, the 10 was a real treat.
                                              Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
                                               
                                              Miamiairport
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                                              Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                              Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:48 pm

                                              I remember flying Northwest from JFK to BKK and SIN in 2001 and 2002. Connecting through NRT was an experience. You qued to have your passport checked for the onward 747 flight to BKK and SIN. That part of NRT was total chaos with so many 747s arriving at once. This poor little Japanese woman that stood no taller than 4'9" had no chance of controlling boarding. I did all of those flights in Y (when I was much younger).

                                              I remember on the one flight back to JFK the FA sneaking me ice cream sandwiches from J.
                                               
                                              TYWoolman
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                                              Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                              Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:23 pm

                                              I wonder if Northwest ever had intentions on making Boston a full-fledged Atlantic powerhouse to rival TWA and Pan Am at JFK? That steam is now given to Delta with their expansion announcements (at least pre-covid, and may be in part because of JetBlue), but it sure is intriguing that Boston was important to Northwest back in the day, which is now a city that enjoys route expansion on top of route expansion. You have to give Northwest props for giving it a go all the way back then.
                                               
                                              EBiafore99
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                                              Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                              Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:45 pm

                                              So I live in Detroit and remember the Northwest-Republic merger. At first, the word "Republic" was simply covered with "Northwest Orient". Then, as the new livery came out (which was the bowling shoe), "Orient" was dropped.

                                              IMO, NW service has never been cutting edge. However, with that said, the service fit the airline. NW knew what it was and what it wasn't as an airline...I can't remember where I read this, but one writer termed NW as the "workhorse" of the Midwest. While AA, DL and UA were looking to serve those "prestigious" routes (i.e. NY - LA), NW focused on what it did best - routes like Fargo, Minot, Sioux Falls, etc. "Prestigious", no...but they made money.

                                              Frankly, I miss NW. In the end, NW was running an on-time operation. Also, their IT system was far superior to DLs. Finally, in DTW, it was a sight to see 4 747s at the gates in the afternoon ready to go to Asia.
                                               
                                              RetiredWeasel
                                              Posts: 807
                                              Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

                                              Re: Northwest Orient and Northwest Airlines

                                              Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:30 pm

                                              EBiafore99 wrote:
                                              So I live in Detroit and remember the Northwest-Republic merger. At first, the word "Republic" was simply covered with "Northwest Orient". Then, as the new livery came out (which was the bowling shoe), "Orient" was dropped.


                                              My memory of your timeline is a little different and I was flying them during the livery changes. "Orient" was dropped well before the 'bowling shoe" livery, may 2 to 3 years. "Orient" on many aircraft was just taken off. The 727's we flew out of Guam (93/94) were all former Republic/Hughes Airwest and had this logo:

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