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na
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New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:59 pm

https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4

Two new 777-300ER have been ferried to VCV for storage, possibly not taken up by Aeroflot, possibly for longterm stoage until the Corona crisis is largely over. In any case, these planes are not needed.
Last edited by SQ22 on Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
VSMUT
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:09 pm

These were the first ones destined to get the updated Aeroflot 777 interior, were they not?
 
Pentaprism
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:14 pm

Given the Political issues between the USA and Russia I am surprised Aeroflot is allowed to order Boeing Aircraft at all. Banning Boeing orders would seem to be an obvious way to retaliate against US Sanctions. Perhaps this is what is happening but in a more subtle way?

Having suggested that I will clarify that it goes without saying that no Airline needs any more reason or justification than the unprecedented COVID to cancel any Aircraft order.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:38 pm

It would more likely be a result of coronavirus crisis than anything else, just like what other airlines are doing by postponing new planes and so forth.

Michael
 
b747400erf
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 1:38 pm

Pentaprism wrote:
Given the Political issues between the USA and Russia I am surprised Aeroflot is allowed to order Boeing Aircraft at all. Banning Boeing orders would seem to be an obvious way to retaliate against US Sanctions. Perhaps this is what is happening but in a more subtle way?

Having suggested that I will clarify that it goes without saying that no Airline needs any more reason or justification than the unprecedented COVID to cancel any Aircraft order.


Hurt our economy to hurt theirs!! :?
 
FCOTSTW
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:18 pm

Does anyone know what king of penalty SU will go through?

Do they forego a downpayment or is there anything else involved?
 
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MrBren
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:20 pm

This is consistent with SU target to have a full Airbus fleet.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:22 pm

Pentaprism wrote:
Given the Political issues between the USA and Russia I am surprised Aeroflot is allowed to order Boeing Aircraft at all. Banning Boeing orders would seem to be an obvious way to retaliate against US Sanctions. Perhaps this is what is happening but in a more subtle way?


U.S. sanctions are a lot narrower - in goods and persons - than you think. It's not as if all trade is banned. It's not 1960s Cuba. Russian retaliation is similarly measured.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10779.pdf
 
Sooner787
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:23 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Does anyone know what king of penalty SU will go through?

Do they forego a downpayment or is there anything else involved?


When I took the Everett Factory tour , seem to recall they explained airlines
make the first 1/3 of purchase before assembly begins, the next third is paid
before painting the aircraft, and the final third upon delivery. So in theory,
SU has already paid for 2/3 of the jet.

I'm betting those 2 birds have been deferred like seemingly every other plane
order these days :)
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:26 pm

Airbus has flown a couple of A359s destined for SU into storage too, so I wonder why this even deserves its own thread? This is COVID-19 related of course, two examples of more than hundred new aircraft gone into storage, hardly newsworthy these days.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:28 pm

MrBren wrote:
This is consistent with SU target to have a full Airbus fleet.

Wishful thinking. As said, this is COVID-19 related, SU has no plans to permanently retire their 77W fleet.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
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MrBren
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:03 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Wishful thinking. As said, this is COVID-19 related, SU has no plans to permanently retire their 77W fleet.


Really? See https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1449115&p=22348559&hilit=aeroflot+airbus#p22348559.
 
Blerg
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:11 pm

frigatebird wrote:
MrBren wrote:
This is consistent with SU target to have a full Airbus fleet.

Wishful thinking. As said, this is COVID-19 related, SU has no plans to permanently retire their 77W fleet.


How is it wishful thinking if that's part of SU's long-term strategy that was published about a week ago? There is even a thread about it on here. Their plan is to switch their long-haul flying to the A350. B77W is out, only question is when. That said, it was reported Rossiya will be flying the 777 so they might take some in the future.
 
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VCVSpotter
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:48 pm

Hold up. This is POSSIBLY. Skyliners has listed ‘ntu ?’ for EVERY undelivered Boeing aircraft (yes there are quite a few, check out the spreadsheet in my signature) that has been flown to VCV. There is no real ‘evidence’ that would point to these frames being NTUs. Mods, please change the thread name to add question marks, or something that denotes uncertainty to the topic as this has not been officially announced or proven. They may just be at VCV for storage for a few months, and then taken up later.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

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Pudelhund
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:09 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Does anyone know what king of penalty SU will go through?

Do they forego a downpayment or is there anything else involved?


When I took the Everett Factory tour , seem to recall they explained airlines
make the first 1/3 of purchase before assembly begins, the next third is paid
before painting the aircraft, and the final third upon delivery. So in theory,
SU has already paid for 2/3 of the jet.

I'm betting those 2 birds have been deferred like seemingly every other plane
order these days :)


These 77W are leased though, not purchased by SU directly. The leasing company will penalize SU and find another customer if they can unless SU is paying to hold them.
 
x1234
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:57 pm

I have to say Aeroflot uses the B77W to the maximum with its massive cargo hauling capabilities and they fit 378 on their B77W. https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Aerof ... -300ER.php

They have enough to carry full payload in their entire network.
 
FCOTSTW
Posts: 214
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:01 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Does anyone know what king of penalty SU will go through?

Do they forego a downpayment or is there anything else involved?


When I took the Everett Factory tour , seem to recall they explained airlines
make the first 1/3 of purchase before assembly begins, the next third is paid
before painting the aircraft, and the final third upon delivery. So in theory,
SU has already paid for 2/3 of the jet.

I'm betting those 2 birds have been deferred like seemingly every other plane
order these days :)


If the terms of the deal are as such, it would mean financial suicide for SU. Still, it would be interesting to see whether Boeing would break-even.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:36 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Does anyone know what king of penalty SU will go through?

Do they forego a downpayment or is there anything else involved?


When I took the Everett Factory tour , seem to recall they explained airlines
make the first 1/3 of purchase before assembly begins, the next third is paid
before painting the aircraft, and the final third upon delivery. So in theory,
SU has already paid for 2/3 of the jet.

I'm betting those 2 birds have been deferred like seemingly every other plane
order these days :)


If the terms of the deal are as such, it would mean financial suicide for SU. Still, it would be interesting to see whether Boeing would break-even.

SU was to lease these. Aeroflot owes the leasing company.

Lightsaber
Flu+Covid19 is bad. Consider a flu vaccine, if not for yourself, to protect someone you care about.
 
smartplane
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:08 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
When I took the Everett Factory tour , seem to recall they explained airlines
make the first 1/3 of purchase before assembly begins, the next third is paid
before painting the aircraft, and the final third upon delivery.

Not correct.

1. Milestone payments are part of the purchase negotiations. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 are what OEM's require from smaller customers and BBJ.

2. There is still a withheld payment on delivery, in the range 3-10%.

3. Milestone payments (% and $'s) trend lower as aircraft are delivered. For example, in a 10 aircraft order (or tranche), there may be virtually no payments due on the final 1-2 aircraft.

4. There are more than four milestone payments made, whether the engines are bundled by the air frame OEM, or acquired separately.

If aircraft are part of a larger order, OEM's will rarely rock the boat (or wings), because this may trigger financial covenant breaches, putting at risk the balance of orders.

BCC can act as a lender of last resort, but their capacity may be full as they are carrying COVID, MAX and military rejection / deferral fleets.
 
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Polot
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:29 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Airbus has flown a couple of A359s destined for SU into storage too, so I wonder why this even deserves its own thread? This is COVID-19 related of course, two examples of more than hundred new aircraft gone into storage, hardly newsworthy these days.

Yes, there is currently one SU A350 stored in LDE, and I expect it’s newer siblings to join it soon.

Will SU take the 77Ws? Who knows but it too early to definitely say they will not (even Skyliner has no clue).
 
dcajet
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:39 am

lightsaber wrote:
FCOTSTW wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:

When I took the Everett Factory tour , seem to recall they explained airlines
make the first 1/3 of purchase before assembly begins, the next third is paid
before painting the aircraft, and the final third upon delivery. So in theory,
SU has already paid for 2/3 of the jet.

I'm betting those 2 birds have been deferred like seemingly every other plane
order these days :)


If the terms of the deal are as such, it would mean financial suicide for SU. Still, it would be interesting to see whether Boeing would break-even.

SU was to lease these. Aeroflot owes the leasing company.

Lightsaber


Doubt Aeroflot will have much trouble deferring these 777s. They are leased from VEB Leasing, which is owned by the Russian State; Incidentally, same owner as Aeroflot's.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Aeroflot not taking two new 77W

Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:43 pm

Polot wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Airbus has flown a couple of A359s destined for SU into storage too, so I wonder why this even deserves its own thread? This is COVID-19 related of course, two examples of more than hundred new aircraft gone into storage, hardly newsworthy these days.

Yes, there is currently one SU A350 stored in LDE, and I expect it’s newer siblings to join it soon.

Will SU take the 77Ws? Who knows but it too early to definitely say they will not (even Skyliner has no clue).

"Aviation Toulouse" says:

The 3rd Aeroflot #A350 named "A. Vasilevsky" leaving Toulouse for Chateauroux for storage this morning.

Ref: https://twitter.com/Frenchpainter/statu ... 9542602752

... and has a photo of such.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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na
Topic Author
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Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:22 pm

Certainly an A359 will be easier to fill than a 77W. Those Boeings might end up somewhere else.
 
x1234
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Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:39 pm

The B77W was a game changer for Aeroflot on its Far East routes as it can lift a ton of cargo and they fill the passengers to the brim with 378 seats. It allows them to carry full payload on their entire global network. The B77W carries more than the A359 maybe even the A351. If you can fill all the seats you can make a profit on the B77W. This is the same plane that enabled CX to fly JFK-HKG nonstop trans polar.
 
dcajet
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Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:32 pm

x1234 wrote:
If you can fill all the seats you can make a profit on the B77W..


Err... isn't that the case with every plane?
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:45 pm

I can understand the A359s being stored---but the B77Ws being NTU seems a bit odd, as the B77W is already a type that SU operates, and all but 1 of the existing 19 B77Ws in the SU fleet are owned by some branch of the Russian government (be it SU or a state bank) (the 1 that isn't is owned by a Lithuanian lessor).
 
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res77W
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Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:23 pm

Last I saw, Aeroflot 77Ws had 402 seats...according to SeatGuru. Am I missing something here? Is 378 the reduced count for social distancing?

-Rowen
 
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Polot
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Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:27 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I can understand the A359s being stored---but the B77Ws being NTU seems a bit odd, as the B77W is already a type that SU operates, and all but 1 of the existing 19 B77Ws in the SU fleet are owned by some branch of the Russian government (be it SU or a state bank) (the 1 that isn't is owned by a Lithuanian lessor).

Nobody is exactly thrilled to spend money on brand new planes that they don’t need right now, no matter if they already have the type in fleet or not.

I’m actually of the opposite opinion of you, I think SU would want the A359s much more than the 77W. They are smaller (easier to fill) and SU currently has one delivered so there would be motivation to build up fleet some for economics is scale improvement. Biggest wrinkle is considering SU’s last 77Ws are a relatively recent production-bridging order it wouldn’t surprise me if the 77W pricing is competitive with the smaller A350s.
Last edited by Polot on Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Antarius
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Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:29 pm

res77W wrote:
Last I saw, Aeroflot 77Ws had 402 seats...according to SeatGuru. Am I missing something here? Is 378 the reduced count for social distancing?

-Rowen


354 according to their website

https://www.aeroflot.ru/media/aflfiles/ ... 0er_en.png
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
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Polot
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Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:33 pm

Antarius wrote:
res77W wrote:
Last I saw, Aeroflot 77Ws had 402 seats...according to SeatGuru. Am I missing something here? Is 378 the reduced count for social distancing?

-Rowen


354 according to their website

https://www.aeroflot.ru/media/aflfiles/ ... 0er_en.png

That’s not counting the 48 Comfort Class seats for whatever reason.

Aeroflot is/was planning to reconfigure their 777s (I think these stored ones were going to be first in new layout) but I’m not sure the seat count of the new layout was ever announced.
 
Antarius
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Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:43 pm

Polot wrote:
Antarius wrote:
res77W wrote:
Last I saw, Aeroflot 77Ws had 402 seats...according to SeatGuru. Am I missing something here? Is 378 the reduced count for social distancing?

-Rowen


354 according to their website

https://www.aeroflot.ru/media/aflfiles/ ... 0er_en.png

That’s not counting the 48 Comfort Class seats for whatever reason.

Aeroflot is/was planning to reconfigure their 777s (I think these stored ones were going to be first in new layout) but I’m not sure the seat count of the new layout was ever announced.


Oh yeah. Wow.
2020: SFO DFW IAH HOU CLT MEX BIS MIA GUA ORD DTW LGA BOS LHR DUB BFS BHD STN OAK PHL ISP JFK SJC DEN SJU LAS TXL GDL
 
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Revelation
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Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:09 pm

Polot wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I can understand the A359s being stored---but the B77Ws being NTU seems a bit odd, as the B77W is already a type that SU operates, and all but 1 of the existing 19 B77Ws in the SU fleet are owned by some branch of the Russian government (be it SU or a state bank) (the 1 that isn't is owned by a Lithuanian lessor).

Nobody is exactly thrilled to spend money on brand new planes that they don’t need right now, no matter if they already have the type in fleet or not.

I’m actually of the opposite opinion of you, I think SU would want the A359s much more than the 77W. They are smaller (easier to fill) and SU currently has one delivered so there would be motivation to build up fleet some for economics is scale improvement. Biggest wrinkle is considering SU’s last 77Ws are a relatively recent production-bridging order it wouldn’t surprise me if the 77W pricing is competitive with the smaller A350s.

Problem is, scaling up costs money, and no one in the airline business has money these days.

They did want those 77Fs a few weeks ago, though.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
jbs2886
Posts: 2358
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:07 pm

Re: New Aeroflot 77Ws and A359 being stored

Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:41 pm

dcajet wrote:
x1234 wrote:
If you can fill all the seats you can make a profit on the B77W..


Err... isn't that the case with every plane?


Lol, yes. Unless you are Alitalia or a handful of others. :duck:

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