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lightsaber
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:01 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I suspect the main business was cruise ship workers. Between the cruise contracts, the VFR traffic who do know where FLL is, the local O&D, and whatever other business traffic there is, that should have been more than enough to run 266 seats 4x weekly. Without the cruise industry, it's game over.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Long suspected that this was their M.O. and surprised it took them this long to cancel.

:checkmark: :checkmark:

I would add those that cruise their silver years. I know people who retired who circle the world to cruise, returning to Ft. Lauderdale or Long Beach (Los Angeles) for a cruise with their grandkids. Although I conceed cruuse workers probably outnumbered cruise passengers by a good margin, but I would bet the passengers were the only ones in the front cabins.

Until the cruise Industry returns to normal, FLL will have very reduced traffic.

Lightsaber
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chonetsao
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:37 pm

SurfandSnow wrote:
I was honestly shocked to see EK try service to FLL. "Fort Lauderdale" might be well known to Americans and Canadians, but probably far less so to Indians and Saudi Arabians. Sure, the airport is centrally located in the South Florida metropolitan area, but wouldn't many O&D pax - especially those at the front of the plane - want to be arriving as close to ritzy South Beach as possible (that is, at MIA)?


FLL was a big cruise ship traffic end station (pre Covid19 of course). India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand and Philippines provide many of the cruise ship crew members that are on 6 months contract need to be flown constantly to fill the ship jobs. However, the construction in Miami cruise ship terminus by big shipping companies now is almost completed, more ships have been shifted to Miami. even without Covid19, the future of FLL cruise traffic is projected to be lower than its peak 3 to 5 years ago when Miami started the cruise terminal constructions. Post Covid19, FLL is certainly on track to loose more traffic as ship company retire ships early and consolidate in the Miami new facility.
 
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klm617
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:39 pm

lightsaber wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I suspect the main business was cruise ship workers. Between the cruise contracts, the VFR traffic who do know where FLL is, the local O&D, and whatever other business traffic there is, that should have been more than enough to run 266 seats 4x weekly. Without the cruise industry, it's game over.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Long suspected that this was their M.O. and surprised it took them this long to cancel.

:checkmark: :checkmark:

I would add those that cruise their silver years. I know people who retired who circle the world to cruise, returning to Ft. Lauderdale or Long Beach (Los Angeles) for a cruise with their grandkids. Although I conceed cruuse workers probably outnumbered cruise passengers by a good margin, but I would bet the passengers were the only ones in the front cabins.

Until the cruise Industry returns to normal, FLL will have very reduced traffic.

Lightsaber


But doesn't Miami have more cruise traffic. If that's what they were after why chose FLL over serving MIA
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
hohd
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:09 pm

MIAFLLPBIFlyer wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
I
Actually since you mention Indians, that was maybe a target of the flight - the areas closer to FLL and to the north have more South Asians than areas closer to MIA. One of the few ethnic ex-pat communities where that is the case. I know FLL-DXB-BLR or FLL-DXB-COK or FLL-DXB-MAA was flown by folks I know. They'll miss the flight, maybe the only community who notices it's gone. Many don't like going to MIA for various reasons and may opt now just to fly via EWR on UA from either FLL or PBI and then connect in India to an onward destination. The dislike of MIA is that great among some of them.


I am not sure about that. Indians and Africans would easily go to MIA if that was the option to fly to India/Africa on a one stop itinerary. The only reason they would connect via EWR or other cities is if the fares are far lower. The explanation is that there is just is not enough demand for EK in FLL, may be they may have better luck in MIA couple of years from now.
Last edited by hohd on Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:13 pm

lightsaber wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
airbazar wrote:
I suspect the main business was cruise ship workers. Between the cruise contracts, the VFR traffic who do know where FLL is, the local O&D, and whatever other business traffic there is, that should have been more than enough to run 266 seats 4x weekly. Without the cruise industry, it's game over.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Long suspected that this was their M.O. and surprised it took them this long to cancel.

:checkmark: :checkmark:

I would add those that cruise their silver years. I know people who retired who circle the world to cruise, returning to Ft. Lauderdale or Long Beach (Los Angeles) for a cruise with their grandkids. Although I conceed cruuse workers probably outnumbered cruise passengers by a good margin, but I would bet the passengers were the only ones in the front cabins.

Until the cruise Industry returns to normal, FLL will have very reduced traffic.

Lightsaber

If they were chasing cruise traffic (employees and passengers), wouldn't Miami have been the better option as it has the larger (by passengers) cruise port (Port of Miami vs Port Everglades)? Also, the headquarters of the largest cruise companies are predominantly within Miami-Dade. Unless of course that cruise traffic was just not high yield enough to make work out of higher cost MIA?
 
Toinou
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:35 pm

EK may have had a business case with cruise traffic and some immigrant communities near FLL.
But this seems still to be a rather bad choice for most inbound traffic: as other have said, most people outside the US either don't know Fort Lauderdale at all or have no idea it is very close to Miami. This means that if they want to go in Miami (or in good parts of Florida), they would simply type "Miami" in whatever website they fancy to find plane tickets.
So whatever may think those who defend the choice to go to FLL over MIA, this gives EK a little (and disputable) edge on some local traffic but an enormous disadvantage on inbound traffic that may simply ignore them. Not a very wise business decision in my opinion.
 
airbazar
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:32 pm

Toinou wrote:
EK may have had a business case with cruise traffic and some immigrant communities near FLL.
But this seems still to be a rather bad choice for most inbound traffic: as other have said, most people outside the US either don't know Fort Lauderdale at all or have no idea it is very close to Miami. This means that if they want to go in Miami (or in good parts of Florida), they would simply type "Miami" in whatever website they fancy to find plane tickets.
So whatever may think those who defend the choice to go to FLL over MIA, this gives EK a little (and disputable) edge on some local traffic but an enormous disadvantage on inbound traffic that may simply ignore them. Not a very wise business decision in my opinion.

Do you think anyone outside of Florida knows where Sanford, FL is? Yet lots of foreign airlines and foreign visitors land there.
People who buy vacation packages don't ask where the airport is. As long as it gets them where they ultimately want to go, that's where they go. And yes, believe it or not packaged vacations are still a thing outside of the U.S.
Brickell305 wrote:
If they were chasing cruise traffic (employees and passengers), wouldn't Miami have been the better option as it has the larger (by passengers) cruise port (Port of Miami vs Port Everglades)?

Cost. FLL is cheaper than MIA. If they had a corporate contract with the cruise companies, those people were likely being shuttled to FLL from Miami.
 
MAH4546
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:36 pm

Ishrion wrote:
crownvic wrote:
looks like Orlando is gone too..I guess the two 777-300 PPE Emirates flights this week are a consolation prize for MCO spotters.


It’s available from October 2 and onwards.


Schedule after September 30th is just default. Orlando restart keeps getting pushed with every new schedule new load for the month.
a.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:40 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
crownvic wrote:
looks like Orlando is gone too..I guess the two 777-300 PPE Emirates flights this week are a consolation prize for MCO spotters.


It’s available from October 2 and onwards.


Schedule after September 30th is just default. Orlando restart keeps getting pushed with every new schedule new load for the month.


Ah, makes sense. In this case though, Orlando is still there (for now), unlike FLL being completely removed.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:07 pm

klm617 wrote:
But doesn't Miami have more cruise traffic. If that's what they were after why chose FLL over serving MIA

Reading this forum over the years, MIA charges airlines higher fees than FLL so maybe EK found their business case didn't close with MIA's more expensive fees.

As for cruises, I took a cruise once (and probably never again, it's not my cup of tea) out of the Port of Miami but flew in/out of FLL.

Airfare was noticeably cheaper.

Was able to get a bus ride directly from FLL airport to the ship, and on the way out got a bus from dockside to FLL, no hassles at all.

On the dock they had queues for MIA vs FLL, all that was needed was to get into the right queue.

I don't think the bus price was much if any different, but the air fare surely was, and the drive time mattered naught.
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airportugal310
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:53 pm

I took the Tri Rail once from MIA to FLL in my non-rev days...it was relatively hassle free and cheap, from what I recall (4-5 years ago)

https://www.tri-rail.com/
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
luckyone
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:21 pm

Toinou wrote:
But this seems still to be a rather bad choice for most inbound traffic: as other have said, most people outside the US either don't know Fort Lauderdale at all or have no idea it is very close to Miami. This means that if they want to go in Miami (or in good parts of Florida), they would simply type "Miami" in whatever website they fancy to find plane tickets.
So whatever may think those who defend the choice to go to FLL over MIA, this gives EK a little (and disputable) edge on some local traffic but an enormous disadvantage on inbound traffic that may simply ignore them. Not a very wise business decision in my opinion.

I don't buy that argument, especially today when airlines like Ryanair have made their entire business model serving "secondary" airports. People who travel frequently have long since figured out that more than one airport can serve a metropolitan area. If the cruise ship argument is valid and the source of most of the passengers (I honestly have no idea), then they're being shuttled to and fro no matter where they go. Other Emirates passengers, simply judging by the market they would largely source--South Asia and the Middle East-- in order to get a US visa, tend to be well-to-do, be better educated, and have means. They will be able to look at a map, and if they've been to Miami even once they'll know how close the two cities are. Likely the bigger issue at hand is the market is just not that large. Just for reference, MIA and FLL are closer together than LGW and LHR. And some people say Americans are bad at geography...
Last edited by luckyone on Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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klm617
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:28 pm

Revelation wrote:
klm617 wrote:
But doesn't Miami have more cruise traffic. If that's what they were after why chose FLL over serving MIA

Reading this forum over the years, MIA charges airlines higher fees than FLL so maybe EK found their business case didn't close with MIA's more expensive fees.

As for cruises, I took a cruise once (and probably never again, it's not my cup of tea) out of the Port of Miami but flew in/out of FLL.

Airfare was noticeably cheaper.

Was able to get a bus ride directly from FLL airport to the ship, and on the way out got a bus from dockside to FLL, no hassles at all.

On the dock they had queues for MIA vs FLL, all that was needed was to get into the right queue.

I don't think the bus price was much if any different, but the air fare surely was, and the drive time mattered naught.


Ys but with that logic then all carriers would serve FLL over MIA. IDK why people are denying the fact that EK was in FLL primarily because of their hookup with B6 and feed they supplied to make this flight viable from that airport.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:29 pm

luckyone wrote:
Toinou wrote:
But this seems still to be a rather bad choice for most inbound traffic: as other have said, most people outside the US either don't know Fort Lauderdale at all or have no idea it is very close to Miami. This means that if they want to go in Miami (or in good parts of Florida), they would simply type "Miami" in whatever website they fancy to find plane tickets.
So whatever may think those who defend the choice to go to FLL over MIA, this gives EK a little (and disputable) edge on some local traffic but an enormous disadvantage on inbound traffic that may simply ignore them. Not a very wise business decision in my opinion.

I don't buy that argument, especially today when airlines like Ryanair have made their entire business model serving "secondary" airports. People who travel frequently have long since figured out that more than one airport can serve a metropolitan area. If the cruise ship argument is valid and the source of most of the passengers (I honestly have no idea), then they're being shuttled to and fro no matter where they go. Other Emirates passengers, simply judging by the market they would largely source--South Asia and the Middle East-- in order to get a US visa, tend to be well-to-do, be better educated, and have means. They will be able to look at a map, and if they've been to Miami even once they'll know how close the two cities are. Likely the bigger issue at hand is the market is just not that large. Just for reference, MIA and FLL are closer together than LGW and LHR. And some people say Americans are bad at geography...


LCC's get people to use secondary airports because of their low prices. EK is not cheap. Why should I fly EK to FLL when I can fly TK,QR or a number of European and US carriers directly to the primary airport for essentially the same price? Not to mention, FLL has zero premium facilities and amenities for these educated, well to do foreign passengers.
 
NYCVIE
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:37 pm

klm617 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
klm617 wrote:
But doesn't Miami have more cruise traffic. If that's what they were after why chose FLL over serving MIA

Reading this forum over the years, MIA charges airlines higher fees than FLL so maybe EK found their business case didn't close with MIA's more expensive fees.

As for cruises, I took a cruise once (and probably never again, it's not my cup of tea) out of the Port of Miami but flew in/out of FLL.

Airfare was noticeably cheaper.

Was able to get a bus ride directly from FLL airport to the ship, and on the way out got a bus from dockside to FLL, no hassles at all.

On the dock they had queues for MIA vs FLL, all that was needed was to get into the right queue.

I don't think the bus price was much if any different, but the air fare surely was, and the drive time mattered naught.


Ys but with that logic then all carriers would serve FLL over MIA. IDK why people are denying the fact that EK was in FLL primarily because of their hookup with B6 and feed they supplied to make this flight viable from that airport.


Because that's not true. Many of the B6 FLL flights connected poorly to/from the EK flights and almost all those connections could have been better flowed over BOS or JFK. Particularly to the Caribbean almost all FLL connections could have been better served over JFK considering EK had 2/3 flights into JFK and B6 has more presence there as well.
 
luckyone
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:53 pm

usflyer msp wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Toinou wrote:
But this seems still to be a rather bad choice for most inbound traffic: as other have said, most people outside the US either don't know Fort Lauderdale at all or have no idea it is very close to Miami. This means that if they want to go in Miami (or in good parts of Florida), they would simply type "Miami" in whatever website they fancy to find plane tickets.
So whatever may think those who defend the choice to go to FLL over MIA, this gives EK a little (and disputable) edge on some local traffic but an enormous disadvantage on inbound traffic that may simply ignore them. Not a very wise business decision in my opinion.

I don't buy that argument, especially today when airlines like Ryanair have made their entire business model serving "secondary" airports. People who travel frequently have long since figured out that more than one airport can serve a metropolitan area. If the cruise ship argument is valid and the source of most of the passengers (I honestly have no idea), then they're being shuttled to and fro no matter where they go. Other Emirates passengers, simply judging by the market they would largely source--South Asia and the Middle East-- in order to get a US visa, tend to be well-to-do, be better educated, and have means. They will be able to look at a map, and if they've been to Miami even once they'll know how close the two cities are. Likely the bigger issue at hand is the market is just not that large. Just for reference, MIA and FLL are closer together than LGW and LHR. And some people say Americans are bad at geography...


LCC's get people to use secondary airports because of their low prices. EK is not cheap. Why should I fly EK to FLL when I can fly TK,QR or a number of European and US carriers directly to the primary airport for essentially the same price? Not to mention, FLL has zero premium facilities and amenities for these educated, well to do foreign passengers.

Also a valid point. My point was merely that name recognition is likely not a factor in this route's lack of success.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:04 pm

airbazar wrote:
Do you think anyone outside of Florida knows where Sanford, FL is? Yet lots of foreign airlines and foreign visitors land there.
People who buy vacation packages don't ask where the airport is. As long as it gets them where they ultimately want to go, that's where they go. And yes, believe it or not packaged vacations are still a thing outside of the U.S.


Apples to oranges. Sanford is marketed as Orlando-Sanford. And before COVID it was already used only by TUI on pseudo-charter flights from the UK to Disneyworld and the large British community in the area (and Wamos started MAD). Even Icelandair had moved to MCO. And Emirates is not an airline in the business of package vacations even if they might have some like every other scheduled carrier.

Toinou is completely right. Nobody (unless they have some connection to South FL) know in Europe what Fort Lauderdale is. And people don't understand how close it is to Miami (specially in a country with huge distances by European standards). And even if they know what FLL is; why flying there? Miami is the prestigious brand, the name of the game, where most foreigners want to go. MIA has the second largest choice of EMEA carriers after New York City in the US. Plenty of options to arrive from the ME/Asia to MIA via Europe, QR or TK.
 
Lootess
Posts: 457
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:31 pm

klm617 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

Long suspected that this was their M.O. and surprised it took them this long to cancel.

:checkmark: :checkmark:

I would add those that cruise their silver years. I know people who retired who circle the world to cruise, returning to Ft. Lauderdale or Long Beach (Los Angeles) for a cruise with their grandkids. Although I conceed cruuse workers probably outnumbered cruise passengers by a good margin, but I would bet the passengers were the only ones in the front cabins.

Until the cruise Industry returns to normal, FLL will have very reduced traffic.

Lightsaber


But doesn't Miami have more cruise traffic. If that's what they were after why chose FLL over serving MIA


FLL which is a stone throw away from Port Everglades has the most cruise traffic. You can't get to baggage claim without a flurry of cruise and tour driver signage.

Also all the hoopla about name recognition of FLL vs MIA isn't true at-all, Southwest has been living off of FLL forever, and if you are working/taking a cruise you will know FLL is the place to fly. not MIA. As long as the cruise industry is shot, FLL suffers the same fate.
 
Brickell305
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:40 pm

Lootess wrote:
klm617 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
:checkmark: :checkmark:

I would add those that cruise their silver years. I know people who retired who circle the world to cruise, returning to Ft. Lauderdale or Long Beach (Los Angeles) for a cruise with their grandkids. Although I conceed cruuse workers probably outnumbered cruise passengers by a good margin, but I would bet the passengers were the only ones in the front cabins.

Until the cruise Industry returns to normal, FLL will have very reduced traffic.

Lightsaber


But doesn't Miami have more cruise traffic. If that's what they were after why chose FLL over serving MIA


FLL which is a stone throw away from Port Everglades has the most cruise traffic. You can't get to baggage claim without a flurry of cruise and tour driver signage.

Also all the hoopla about name recognition of FLL vs MIA isn't true at-all, Southwest has been living off of FLL forever, and if you are working/taking a cruise you will know FLL is the place to fly. not MIA. As long as the cruise industry is shot, FLL suffers the same fate.

Yes, Port Everglades is next to FLL but the Port of Miami, which is a larger cruise port is closer to MIA. A lot of domestic travel to either Port Everglades or the PoM, will fly into FLL as its LCC heaven and often has lower fares and a little extra drive time (if headed to PoM) isn't a deal breaker. However, MIA still receives significant cruise traffic just as FLL does.
 
Toinou
Posts: 278
Joined: Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:21 am

Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:44 pm

airbazar wrote:
Toinou wrote:
EK may have had a business case with cruise traffic and some immigrant communities near FLL.
But this seems still to be a rather bad choice for most inbound traffic: as other have said, most people outside the US either don't know Fort Lauderdale at all or have no idea it is very close to Miami. This means that if they want to go in Miami (or in good parts of Florida), they would simply type "Miami" in whatever website they fancy to find plane tickets.
So whatever may think those who defend the choice to go to FLL over MIA, this gives EK a little (and disputable) edge on some local traffic but an enormous disadvantage on inbound traffic that may simply ignore them. Not a very wise business decision in my opinion.

Do you think anyone outside of Florida knows where Sanford, FL is? Yet lots of foreign airlines and foreign visitors land there.
People who buy vacation packages don't ask where the airport is. As long as it gets them where they ultimately want to go, that's where they go. And yes, believe it or not packaged vacations are still a thing outside of the U.S.


I know that. What I meant was not so contradictory as you make it sounds. Obviously, people who know where they are going or people who have no need to know (like package vacations) will take that flight. What I'm saying is that the other ones, those who simply go to a travel website will be lost, and I tend to think they are not a small part of the traveling folks, especially going to tourism-heavy destinations, like Florida.

Some people mentioned interesting counterexamples to what I said, but I'm still not totally convinced:
- Multiple airports in a city air frequently covered in an area-wide search, for example by using the LON code. Is there such a thing in the case of Miami/Fort Lauderdale? (Real question, I have no idea, but I looked and couldn't find.)
- The case of ULCC is a clear exception. I could argue that people looking for the absolute cheapest option will probably be ready to look much more into things (as evidence by answers to a recent topic on self-connections). I'm also sure that this is making those carriers lose many customers. (And for those talking about Southwest, I will remember you they fly domestic, in which case the question of brand recognition/geographical knowledge is clearly playing differently.)

I am not saying this is the reason this flight was a failure, just that it may be a part of the explanation why it did not become daily while other EK or ME3 flights in the US (and in Florida) seem to have had a better success.
Last edited by Toinou on Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:47 pm

This was a covid drop. We will see many more long haul routes bite the dust here IMHO for the ME3. Traffic won't rebound to pre pandemic numbers for years.

No cruise travel, FLL was doomed. Crusiing and business travel are years away, not months. They had to cancel.
 
airbazar
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:35 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Do you think anyone outside of Florida knows where Sanford, FL is? Yet lots of foreign airlines and foreign visitors land there.
People who buy vacation packages don't ask where the airport is. As long as it gets them where they ultimately want to go, that's where they go. And yes, believe it or not packaged vacations are still a thing outside of the U.S.


Apples to oranges. Sanford is marketed as Orlando-Sanford. And before COVID it was already used only by TUI on pseudo-charter flights from the UK to Disneyworld and the large British community in the area (and Wamos started MAD). Even Icelandair had moved to MCO. And Emirates is not an airline in the business of package vacations even if they might have some like every other scheduled carrier.

Toinou is completely right. Nobody (unless they have some connection to South FL) know in Europe what Fort Lauderdale is.


I suppose that's why DY had 5 different TATL routes out of FLL (Oslo, Copenhagen, Denmark; and Stockholm), and BA had a London flight. FLL like Sanford served the tourist that didn't really care or knew about the airport. All they cared was that they were going to "Miami" or "Disney World", and wanted it to be cheap.
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Emirates drops FLL

Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:05 pm

airbazar wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
airbazar wrote:
Do you think anyone outside of Florida knows where Sanford, FL is? Yet lots of foreign airlines and foreign visitors land there.
People who buy vacation packages don't ask where the airport is. As long as it gets them where they ultimately want to go, that's where they go. And yes, believe it or not packaged vacations are still a thing outside of the U.S.


Apples to oranges. Sanford is marketed as Orlando-Sanford. And before COVID it was already used only by TUI on pseudo-charter flights from the UK to Disneyworld and the large British community in the area (and Wamos started MAD). Even Icelandair had moved to MCO. And Emirates is not an airline in the business of package vacations even if they might have some like every other scheduled carrier.

Toinou is completely right. Nobody (unless they have some connection to South FL) know in Europe what Fort Lauderdale is.


I suppose that's why DY had 5 different TATL routes out of FLL (Oslo, Copenhagen, Denmark; and Stockholm), and BA had a London flight. FLL like Sanford served the tourist that didn't really care or knew about the airport. All they cared was that they were going to "Miami" or "Disney World", and wanted it to be cheap.


I don't think this is a completely fair assessment. The only reason BA flew LGW-FLL was in an effort to make things difficult for DY (also the only reason BA flew LGW-OAK). Once DY moved LGW-FLL to LGW-MIA (and likewise with OAK to SFO) BA accordingly cancelled their own service.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26225
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:22 am

Lootess wrote:

Also all the hoopla about name recognition of FLL vs MIA isn't true at-all, Southwest has been living off of FLL forever, and if you are working/taking a cruise you will know FLL is the place to fly. not MIA. As long as the cruise industry is shot, FLL suffers the same fate.


It is absolutely true. Don't conflate domestic visitors, who know Fort Lauderdale, and foreign ones, who don't. Norwegian moved service to Miami because of this very reason. And safe bet that when (or if) Norwegian resumes non-London long-haul, anything flown from South Florida will consolidate in Miami.
a.
 
santi319
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:11 am

I love FLL, but whoever thinks people outside the US and Canada and the South Florida expats see FLL as a gateway to Miami are delirious.

NOBODY knows FLL, DY flew to all these cities because people were looking for a buck. Eventually I could see DY wanted MIA and the LGW was an experiment to see what would happen.

My theory is EK got a good deal and started the route but MIA had EK’s name all over them. Miscalculation and it didn’t pay off. Now EK is late to the MIA party and probably will be a gap in their network. Just like MCO will be a gap in TK and QR’s network.

Jetblue had nothing to do with that. Everyone in this website is obsessed with them but B6 really is an average player in the world of aviation and outside of NYC.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3963
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:18 am

Lootess wrote:
Also all the hoopla about name recognition of FLL vs MIA isn't true at-all, Southwest has been living off of FLL forever, and if you are working/taking a cruise you will know FLL is the place to fly. not MIA. As long as the cruise industry is shot, FLL suffers the same fate.


Southwest overwhelmingly caters to domestic passengers who are more likely to be aware of Fort Lauderdale. Not so for the intercontinental carriers. Miami is much better known internationally.

Toinou wrote:
Some people mentioned interesting counterexamples to what I said, but I'm still not totally convinced:
- Multiple airports in a city air frequently covered in an area-wide search, for example by using the LON code. Is there such a thing in the case of Miami/Fort Lauderdale? (Real question, I have no idea, but I looked and couldn't find.)


No, there’s no single code for searching for flights to/from all of the South Florida airports. At least not yet.
 
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usxguy
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:32 am

Don't forget that MIA is also the cargo hub for the Caribbean & Central/South America.

Lots and lots of tugs with pallets go between the terminals & cargo ramps regularly.
xx
 
Sokes
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Re: Emirates Retires First A380

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:50 am

CriticalPoint wrote:
Second the US is not a market for the A380 because of the hub structure we have. You can get to Tokyo on US carriers from:

LAX/SFO/PDX/SEA/SLC/DEN/IAH/DFW/MSP/ORD/
DTW/EWR/JFK/IAD/ATL

Airlines that have A380s had a single or double hub structure so they could fill the seats.

I learnt something.
I always wondered why it's not mostly used transpacific.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:51 am

OB1504 wrote:
Lootess wrote:
Also all the hoopla about name recognition of FLL vs MIA isn't true at-all, Southwest has been living off of FLL forever, and if you are working/taking a cruise you will know FLL is the place to fly. not MIA. As long as the cruise industry is shot, FLL suffers the same fate.


Southwest overwhelmingly caters to domestic passengers who are more likely to be aware of Fort Lauderdale. Not so for the intercontinental carriers. Miami is much better known internationally.

Toinou wrote:
Some people mentioned interesting counterexamples to what I said, but I'm still not totally convinced:
- Multiple airports in a city air frequently covered in an area-wide search, for example by using the LON code. Is there such a thing in the case of Miami/Fort Lauderdale? (Real question, I have no idea, but I looked and couldn't find.)


No, there’s no single code for searching for flights to/from all of the South Florida airports. At least not yet.


There technically is a code for all South Florida Airports, QMI. Most people and even travel agents don't know this and I believe SABRE is the only GDS that recognizes it, so it basically gets very little use. LA Area also has one, QLA and so does the Bay Area, QSF.
 
Sokes
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:02 am

Revelation wrote:
smartplane wrote:
A buyback does not make the OEM a lease holder. They would be a beneficial owner if invoked, and have a contingent liability until invoked, expires or retired.

Ahh, the old buyback clause. The ghost of John Leary may end up haunting the house of Airbus.

Can you expand on that?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
LUKAS10
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:11 am

I'd say there many different factors playing important role in the fact this route hadn't been successful. However, one of them is the above-mentioned awareness. People outside the US/Canada don't know where FLL is. I helped my mum to book a ticket from PRG to Miami. There were very low fares on Norwegian so recommended her that connection. She was absolutely confused because she wanted to go to Miami, not to some place she couldn't even pronounce. Everybody knows Miami but FLL is unknown to a vast majority of Europeans/rest of the world. FLL should use Miami in its name, something like Miami - Fort Lauderdale International Airport to attract traffic from Europe.
Anyway, my mum flew to Miami even though her accommodation was closer to FLL :D
I actually never understood why EK had a need to fly to Florida (both MCO & FLL). Covid-19 only shows which routes really make sense to keep and which were a failure even before.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:43 am

chonetsao wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
I was honestly shocked to see EK try service to FLL. "Fort Lauderdale" might be well known to Americans and Canadians, but probably far less so to Indians and Saudi Arabians. Sure, the airport is centrally located in the South Florida metropolitan area, but wouldn't many O&D pax - especially those at the front of the plane - want to be arriving as close to ritzy South Beach as possible (that is, at MIA)?


FLL was a big cruise ship traffic end station (pre Covid19 of course). India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand and Philippines provide many of the cruise ship crew members that are on 6 months contract need to be flown constantly to fill the ship jobs. However, the construction in Miami cruise ship terminus by big shipping companies now is almost completed, more ships have been shifted to Miami. even without Covid19, the future of FLL cruise traffic is projected to be lower than its peak 3 to 5 years ago when Miami started the cruise terminal constructions. Post Covid19, FLL is certainly on track to loose more traffic as ship company retire ships early and consolidate in the Miami new facility.



One connection from the Port of Miami to MIA will make you run to Port Everglades for all future cruises.

Just one time.

Miami can build a palace for its port. It will never beat the convenience of FLL to Port Everglades
 
chonetsao
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:29 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
chonetsao wrote:
SurfandSnow wrote:
I was honestly shocked to see EK try service to FLL. "Fort Lauderdale" might be well known to Americans and Canadians, but probably far less so to Indians and Saudi Arabians. Sure, the airport is centrally located in the South Florida metropolitan area, but wouldn't many O&D pax - especially those at the front of the plane - want to be arriving as close to ritzy South Beach as possible (that is, at MIA)?


FLL was a big cruise ship traffic end station (pre Covid19 of course). India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand and Philippines provide many of the cruise ship crew members that are on 6 months contract need to be flown constantly to fill the ship jobs. However, the construction in Miami cruise ship terminus by big shipping companies now is almost completed, more ships have been shifted to Miami. even without Covid19, the future of FLL cruise traffic is projected to be lower than its peak 3 to 5 years ago when Miami started the cruise terminal constructions. Post Covid19, FLL is certainly on track to loose more traffic as ship company retire ships early and consolidate in the Miami new facility.



One connection from the Port of Miami to MIA will make you run to Port Everglades for all future cruises.

Just one time.

Miami can build a palace for its port. It will never beat the convenience of FLL to Port Everglades


You argument seems to place Miami Cruise port in somewhere not convenient to reach to. Well, that is not true. Miami cruise port might be a little bit further from Miami airport than Poer Everglades to FLL, but the opening of Port of Miami Tunnel really have reduced travel time significantly. From MIA terminal D to Miami cruise port Terminal B is 16 minutes door to door. From FLL Terminal D to FLL terminal 24 is roughly 10 minutes. I would doubt anyone consider 16 minutes is vastly inconvenience.

Cruise ship companies certain realise where the money is, that is why all majors including NCL, CCL and RCL invested in its hub terminal in Port of Miami. Port of Miami provided a host of solutions to accomodate cruise lines.

Port Everglades by comparison, is restricted to its terminal underdevelopment as well as the time slot restrictions due to sand banks on its channel to the ocean. That means big cruise ships has a specific window of opportunity to leave the berth, sort like in New York due to the bridge height restrictions.

That doesn't mean FLL will be finished. Princess and HAL that is baby boomers majority onboard, still prefers FLL due to customer preferences (live nearby). But for family cruises, short vacation cruises and home port cruises, the future is (or was going to be) Miami and Orlando.

PS

I cruise from MIA and FLL frequently. 5 years ago I like FLL, but since then it is MIA as preference due to the superior terminal facilities. The opening of the PoM channel really made a difference.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:39 pm

LUKAS10 wrote:
I actually never understood why EK had a need to fly to Florida (both MCO & FLL).


Why do carriers fly to both Frankfurt and Zurich? They're both big metro areas ~400km apart. Florida is not small: not in population, land area, or tourist appeal.
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5957
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:52 pm

chonetsao wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
chonetsao wrote:

FLL was a big cruise ship traffic end station (pre Covid19 of course). India, Indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand and Philippines provide many of the cruise ship crew members that are on 6 months contract need to be flown constantly to fill the ship jobs. However, the construction in Miami cruise ship terminus by big shipping companies now is almost completed, more ships have been shifted to Miami. even without Covid19, the future of FLL cruise traffic is projected to be lower than its peak 3 to 5 years ago when Miami started the cruise terminal constructions. Post Covid19, FLL is certainly on track to loose more traffic as ship company retire ships early and consolidate in the Miami new facility.



One connection from the Port of Miami to MIA will make you run to Port Everglades for all future cruises.

Just one time.

Miami can build a palace for its port. It will never beat the convenience of FLL to Port Everglades


You argument seems to place Miami Cruise port in somewhere not convenient to reach to. Well, that is not true. Miami cruise port might be a little bit further from Miami airport than Poer Everglades to FLL, but the opening of Port of Miami Tunnel really have reduced travel time significantly. From MIA terminal D to Miami cruise port Terminal B is 16 minutes door to door. From FLL Terminal D to FLL terminal 24 is roughly 10 minutes. I would doubt anyone consider 16 minutes is vastly inconvenience.

Cruise ship companies certain realise where the money is, that is why all majors including NCL, CCL and RCL invested in its hub terminal in Port of Miami. Port of Miami provided a host of solutions to accomodate cruise lines.

Port Everglades by comparison, is restricted to its terminal underdevelopment as well as the time slot restrictions due to sand banks on its channel to the ocean. That means big cruise ships has a specific window of opportunity to leave the berth, sort like in New York due to the bridge height restrictions.

That doesn't mean FLL will be finished. Princess and HAL that is baby boomers majority onboard, still prefers FLL due to customer preferences (live nearby). But for family cruises, short vacation cruises and home port cruises, the future is (or was going to be) Miami and Orlando.

PS

I cruise from MIA and FLL frequently. 5 years ago I like FLL, but since then it is MIA as preference due to the superior terminal facilities. The opening of the PoM channel really made a difference.


I’ve been on close to 30 cruises.

No one books a cruise based on terminal facilities at a port.

They remember things like convenience, access, and cost/ease of parking.

In Florida, Port Canaveral is the big winner by a wide margin.

Miami is at the bottom of the list

EK at FLL was always an odd choice. I would think they belong in Miami if they need to fly to South Florida at all.

But emirates is in big trouble like British Airways.

they don’t really have domestic flying. they are totally dependent on crossing borders with their flying.

that doesn’t work now. And it won’t work anytime soon.

I would expect a lot of secondary destinations will be cut
 
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Revelation
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:56 pm

Sokes wrote:
Revelation wrote:
smartplane wrote:
A buyback does not make the OEM a lease holder. They would be a beneficial owner if invoked, and have a contingent liability until invoked, expires or retired.

Ahh, the old buyback clause. The ghost of John Leary may end up haunting the house of Airbus.

Can you expand on that?

We know Airbus is buying back 6 A380s from LH. We do not know if other such buyback arrangements exist. We do know Airbus used guarantees on resale value and buyback clauses to help sell A340-NGs ( ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... 4E20131205 ). Both A380 and A340-NG sales happened while Leahy was at Airbus.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Sokes
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:06 pm

Revelation wrote:
We know Airbus is buying back 6 A380s from LH. We do not know if other such buyback arrangements exist. We do know Airbus used guarantees on resale value and buyback clauses to help sell A340-NGs ( ref: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airb ... 4E20131205 ). Both A380 and A340-NG sales happened while Leahy was at Airbus.

I think Bombardier did the same with business jets. It's an attractive policy. It increases bonuses for today's management.
Considering that Bombardier was family controlled I may be wrong, but I think risk management should be left to lessors.

Such type of contracts make it rather impossible for an average investor to come to an investment decision. Moreover as the annual report won't tell how these guarantees look like.
But why should the owners know?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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OA412
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:18 pm

Please stay on topic. Florida vs. Massachusetts GDP is not germane to this topic.
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5758
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:34 pm

It seems Malta, Porto and St Petersburg (Russia, not FL) are closed until Summer 2021 for now

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -mar-2021/
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -mar-2021/
 
clrd4t8koff
Posts: 1659
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:27 pm

MAH4546 wrote:
Never made sense to fly to FLL. When they return to South Florida it will certainly be to MIA.


If EK couldn’t make FLL work with partner B6 then how exactly do you think they’ll ever make MIA work? MIA has minimal market to Asia outside Israel. QR with their OW partner AA has cancelled MIA indefinitely. Heck, even LY has dropped MIA.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:26 pm

FLL was fine for EK since this flight was geared towards cruise workers and package booked people head back to ME/Africa/Asia. Their company books all of it and they sit on chartered buses. EK didn't want MIA expenses or they would have chosen it. Reality is the cruise industry is zero for a while, says nothing except that industry is dead so the flight is not needed.

IMHO Emirates is going to cancel alot more cities then this, just wait. This was just one that had to go first as cruising is dead now. International long haul is going to be bad for a few years, expect lots of route and city cancellations as this continues.
 
usflyer msp
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:43 pm

clrd4t8koff wrote:
MIA/FLL/S Fla are an absolute disaster right now. They don’t even have non-stop flights to CDG, FCO, SVO, MXP or BCN. ALL were popular non-stop markets. This is in addition to other European markets like AMS, DUB & KEF. What a fall from grace!

MIA/FLL are gross and crime ridden cities. I’ve never understood the allure. Now we’re seeing how bad it really is. International service has been gutted there and FLL. But this is probably best for another forum so I’ll leave it at this.


....every international gateway airport in the US is a disaster right now. The SoFLa airports are not special in that regard. Due to the SE USA's inability to control COVID and the subsequent collapse of tourism and cruising, the SoFla airports may take longer to recover but they do not really stand out in any other respect right now.
 
by738
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Re: Emirates drops FLL

Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:10 pm

surprised it lasted this long even without covid impact
 
Airlinerdude
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:15 am

To provide a quick update on things at EK:

It looks like Emirates has yet to receive it's government injection:

DUBAI - Emirates needs a bailout from its sole shareholder, the Dubai government, to survive the corona crisis, CEO Tim Clark said in an interview with FlightGlobal. He does not mention a deadline, but says he will need the money "sooner than later".


On the point of how initial A380 operations are fairing:

Clark says he is satisfied with the occupancy rate on A380 flights. This is enough to cover the operational costs and make a little profit. The A380 is now being deployed to six airports, including Schiphol, but he expects more routes soon.


https://www.flightglobal.com/networks/c ... 73.article

In terms of the A380 situation, LHR, CDG, CAI, CAN, and YYZ are the sole A380 operations right now. AMS was dropped on account of the low load factors on the route. A380 flight deck crew are having to take a mandatory 1 month unpaid leave sometime between now and November. No further redundancies have been made since July.

Operationally, over 70 destinations are operating at varying frequencies. I think the biggest challenge is creating connecting opportunities. A lot of the prime feed markets EK has relied on, South Africa, Saudi Arabia and India are mostly closed off to all international travel. EK's operations to Australia are heavily restricted too, limited to just 35, 25, and 45 seats allowed to be sold inbound to SYD, BNE, and PER respectively.
 
Western727
Posts: 1775
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:28 pm

Airlinerdude wrote:
To provide a quick update on things at EK:

It looks like Emirates has yet to receive it's government injection:

DUBAI - Emirates needs a bailout from its sole shareholder, the Dubai government, to survive the corona crisis, CEO Tim Clark said in an interview with FlightGlobal. He does not mention a deadline, but says he will need the money "sooner than later".


On the point of how initial A380 operations are fairing:

Clark says he is satisfied with the occupancy rate on A380 flights. This is enough to cover the operational costs and make a little profit. The A380 is now being deployed to six airports, including Schiphol, but he expects more routes soon.


https://www.flightglobal.com/networks/c ... 73.article

In terms of the A380 situation, LHR, CDG, CAI, CAN, and YYZ are the sole A380 operations right now. AMS was dropped on account of the low load factors on the route. A380 flight deck crew are having to take a mandatory 1 month unpaid leave sometime between now and November. No further redundancies have been made since July.

Operationally, over 70 destinations are operating at varying frequencies. I think the biggest challenge is creating connecting opportunities. A lot of the prime feed markets EK has relied on, South Africa, Saudi Arabia and India are mostly closed off to all international travel. EK's operations to Australia are heavily restricted too, limited to just 35, 25, and 45 seats allowed to be sold inbound to SYD, BNE, and PER respectively.


Thank you, Airlinerdude. My family of 4 was booked last March for IAH-DXB to visit my expat sister and her family who live near AUH. Needless to say, we rescheduled the trip to US Thanksgiving week (last week of November). Recently my sister advised that it would likely not be worth going then, given how strict the Emiratis are with quarantines, closures and such. In any case, my only chance to fly on the 380...has now been downgauged to a 77W for the dates of 20-29 November. :banghead:

My sister believes we should reschedule to March of 2021, and then if things do not improve, summer of 2021. We must use the ticket by 17 Nov 2021, which is the 2-year mark from when we purchased the Economy Saver tickets. I'm tempted to just request a refund at this point, so that we have more flexibility.
Jack @ AUS
 
Retaliation
Posts: 18
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:02 pm

brilondon wrote:
I'm kind of surprised at this. I thought Emirates had deep pockets and would be able to weather this storm if any airline could. I guess there are limits to how much cash they have.



Dubai is a bubble inflated by a constant tourists inflow, So is Emirates as they contributed a huge (some say up to 66%) in Dubai's Economy. Once the Love song stopped playing their world turned upside down.
Someone from the airline community said the guy who is responsible for such disastrous planning is busy in firing people from the same airline he made wrong decisions for.
Moka Kakaa a.
 
emiratesdriver
Posts: 292
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:04 pm

Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:19 pm

Retaliation wrote:
brilondon wrote:
I'm kind of surprised at this. I thought Emirates had deep pockets and would be able to weather this storm if any airline could. I guess there are limits to how much cash they have.



Dubai is a bubble inflated by a constant tourists inflow, So is Emirates as they contributed a huge (some say up to 66%) in Dubai's Economy. Once the Love song stopped playing their world turned upside down.
Someone from the airline community said the guy who is responsible for such disastrous planning is busy in firing people from the same airline he made wrong decisions for.


‘‘Twas ever thus” Emirates isn’t alone in this regard.
 
Retaliation
Posts: 18
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Re: Rumour: Emirates to decommission 40% of A380 fleet

Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:07 pm

emiratesdriver wrote:
Retaliation wrote:
brilondon wrote:
I'm kind of surprised at this. I thought Emirates had deep pockets and would be able to weather this storm if any airline could. I guess there are limits to how much cash they have.



Dubai is a bubble inflated by a constant tourists inflow, So is Emirates as they contributed a huge (some say up to 66%) in Dubai's Economy. Once the Love song stopped playing their world turned upside down.
Someone from the airline community said the guy who is responsible for such disastrous planning is busy in firing people from the same airline he made wrong decisions for.


‘‘Twas ever thus” Emirates isn’t alone in this regard.


Right, Emirates competes only with 2 more carriers with somehow similar circumstances.
I hope you won't compare it with Western carriers. Time will tell where EK stands compared to the other two.
Moka Kakaa a.
 
dcajet
Posts: 4690
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 9:31 am

Emirates axes MEX

Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:26 pm

Another Latin destination axed by Emirates: Mexico City. It is no longer available for sale. MEX was the latest addition in the region (2019) to the EK network. It was the subject of controversy at the time as it included a 5th freedom leg between MEX and BCN, that did not make Aeromexico happy at all.

Emirates has also suspended EZE, GIG and SCL, leaving GRU as their only destination in Latin America.
Keep calm and wash your hands.
 
SCQ83
Posts: 5758
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Re: Emirates axes MEX

Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:35 pm

:D . I recall how nuts the Catalan government got to grant 5th freedom flights to MEX to build their "long haul hub" (despite not having a single local long-haul carrier other than LEVEL).

I wouldn't be surprised that Aeromexico now drops Barcelona too, which at best of times was a marginal route (only restarting it in 2019) to focus in Madrid.

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