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sjones1975
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:14 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
Not a plane to be seen at T2.


Guessing this was taken in the mid to late 1980s.


I think the picture was taken sometime between 1983 and 1987. There’s a Swissair 747-300 at at IAB. Swissair received its first 747-300 in March 1983. There’s also a SAS 747 in the picture. SAS got rid of its last 747 in 1987. Can anyone spot anything else that would further narrow the time range in which this photo was taken?
 
Cointrin330
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:22 pm

sjones1975 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
Not a plane to be seen at T2.


Guessing this was taken in the mid to late 1980s.


I think the picture was taken sometime between 1983 and 1987. There’s a Swissair 747-300 at at IAB. Swissair received its first 747-300 in March 1983. There’s also a SAS 747 in the picture. SAS got rid of its last 747 in 1987. Can anyone spot anything else that would further narrow the time range in which this photo was taken?


The billboard livery on the Pan Am jets signal it's mid-1980s onward and the BCAL 747 at the EA terminal, if it is a BCAL jet, is also telling based on when BCAL was absorbed into BA.
 
wernerga3
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:57 pm

Pan am really invented the concept of jumbo jet boarding. From concept to reality it did change a lot. It started back in 1966 when the 747 wasn't even more than a drawing. The future would have boarding from L1/2 and R1/R2 and would have color coordinated carpeting to match the seating for the section. The luggage was to be loaded from under the boarding section.
Image

As time went on, the concept started to change into production, and boarding had changed to be just L1/2 and R2 when they finished their expansion at JFK.
Image
Image

I guess with all of this evolving over time IAB decided it was time to try the over wing units. Obviously they were unpopular for many reasons and many didn't even use them.


For fun, here were some rare Boeing concepts they drew for their advice on boarding:

Image
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:03 am

That nose against the window in JFK T3 was the best!

I missed PA, but SAA used to bring the 747 in against the window between all the DL 76s
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:45 am

sjones1975 wrote:
I think the picture was taken sometime between 1983 and 1987. There’s a Swissair 747-300 at at IAB. Swissair received its first 747-300 in March 1983. There’s also a SAS 747 in the picture. SAS got rid of its last 747 in 1987. Can anyone spot anything else that would further narrow the time range in which this photo was taken?


I read somewhere that the later 80s SAS 747 flights were freighters only. Many SAS 747s had the oddball JT9D-70 engines that looked like a GE engine. The photo in question shows the early JT9D engines with a ten window upper deck. Only a couple of SAS 747s had that configuration. Anyone here a SAS 747 expert?

Image

From: https://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/attachments/forum12/71387d1319926158-photo5.jpg
 
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DL_Mech
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:19 am

DL_Mech wrote:
The photo in question shows the early JT9D engines with a ten window upper deck. Only a couple of SAS 747s had that configuration. Anyone here a SAS 747 expert?

Image

From: https://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/attachments/forum12/71387d1319926158-photo5.jpg


Also, a lot of windows are blanked out above the cargo door (galley?).

Still trying to figure out the 747 at terminal one. Looks similar to a BA Landor with an Atlas Air tail. I believe an Eastern A300 is just below it.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:52 am

The picture is circa 1985-1987. BCAL (that is definitely one of their 747's at Terminal 1) reintroduced LGW-JFK services in 1985 and SAS ditched their last 747 in 1987. I'd bet 1987 as there's a Nigeria Airways DC-10 at IAB and IIRC in 1986 (the last year I lived in NYC) they were still using the BA Terminal.- I think BA got tired of dealing with WT and evicted them.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:25 am

DL_Mech wrote:
DL_Mech wrote:
The photo in question shows the early JT9D engines with a ten window upper deck. Only a couple of SAS 747s had that configuration. Anyone here a SAS 747 expert?

Image

From: https://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/attachments/forum12/71387d1319926158-photo5.jpg


Also, a lot of windows are blanked out above the cargo door (galley?).

Still trying to figure out the 747 at terminal one. Looks similar to a BA Landor with an Atlas Air tail. I believe an Eastern A300 is just below it.


The 747 parked at the Eastern Air Lines Terminal (predecessor to T1) has been identified further up in this thread as British Caledonian, which started passenger flights between LGW and JFK in 1985. BCAL used the EA terminal.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:55 am

When did SK move to EWR? Was it 1990 or 89?

That also adds an end date to this photo.

they have never come back...
 
wernerga3
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:05 pm

Fwiw eastern never even had their own 747. They leased three from PAA from 1970-1972 to determine if it was a fit for them. This is the only cabin shot I ever saw of an eastern leased 747 which has the PAA cabin. This was N735PA
Image

AA also leased 747s from PAA, but that was just because they were waiting for their own deliveries and wanted to get in the air sooner to compete.

Ultimately eastern launched the L1011 which was supposed to be the better fit, but ended up being a headache for them.
Image
Image
Image

They also launched the 757 and were the first US airline to fly the A300. They liked to dip their toes in the new plane water for better or worse.
 
Flysmart1
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:59 pm

Here is another forum thread on the subject of SK's move from JFK to EWR. They moved to EWR Terminal C in conjunction with the new alliance with CO. They started with a OSL-EWR flight on May 1, 1989 and eventually moved all of their flights by the end of the year. By then, the passenger/ combi 747's were gone and they were operating brand new B767's.

viewtopic.php?t=227289

BCAL operated the 747-200 from LGW-JFK n their full colors from the summer of 1985 - 1989. That would put the JFK aerial photo of the IAB at about 1985-86.
 
wernerga3
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:21 pm

Flysmart1 wrote:
Here is another forum thread on the subject of SK's move from JFK to EWR. They moved to EWR Terminal C in conjunction with the new alliance with CO. They started with a OSL-EWR flight on May 1, 1989 and eventually moved all of their flights by the end of the year. By then, the passenger/ combi 747's were gone and they were operating brand new B767's.

viewtopic.php?t=227289

BCAL operated the 747-200 from LGW-JFK n their full colors from the summer of 1985 - 1989. That would put the JFK aerial photo of the IAB at about 1985-86.


eta unknown wrote:
The picture is circa 1985-1987. BCAL (that is definitely one of their 747's at Terminal 1) reintroduced LGW-JFK services in 1985 and SAS ditched their last 747 in 1987. I'd bet 1987 as there's a Nigeria Airways DC-10 at IAB and IIRC in 1986 (the last year I lived in NYC) they were still using the BA Terminal.- I think BA got tired of dealing with WT and evicted them.



So, there is a PAA 727 wearing the billboard scheme, and they first painted them in that scheme in early 1985. That confirms that this photo is from at least 1985. I’m looking for anything that would indicate the exact year. The Swiss Air 743 came out in 1983, so that doesn’t help.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Pan-Ame ... AoOTMF4%3D
 
DUSdude
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:09 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
DL_Mech wrote:
DL_Mech wrote:
The photo in question shows the early JT9D engines with a ten window upper deck. Only a couple of SAS 747s had that configuration. Anyone here a SAS 747 expert?

Image

From: https://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/attachments/forum12/71387d1319926158-photo5.jpg


Also, a lot of windows are blanked out above the cargo door (galley?).

Still trying to figure out the 747 at terminal one. Looks similar to a BA Landor with an Atlas Air tail. I believe an Eastern A300 is just below it.


The 747 parked at the Eastern Air Lines Terminal (predecessor to T1) has been identified further up in this thread as British Caledonian, which started passenger flights between LGW and JFK in 1985. BCAL used the EA terminal.


It could also be this (which I have flown to JFK around that time):

 
quiet1
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:14 am

wernerga3 wrote:
Ultimately eastern launched the L1011 which was supposed to be the better fit, but ended up being a headache for them.
Image
Image
Image

Do you have links to a readable version of those articles? They look like interesting reading.
 
wernerga3
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:26 am

quiet1 wrote:
wernerga3 wrote:
Ultimately eastern launched the L1011 which was supposed to be the better fit, but ended up being a headache for them.
Image
Image
Image

Do you have links to a readable version of those articles? They look like interesting reading.

Unfortunately not. They're for sale right now on eBay- where I found the article. I just searched eastern l1011 article.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/9-10-1972-ARTI ... %7Ciid%3A1

I was surprised eastern had so many initial issues as twa had a relatively smooth intro. I know eastern sold a good amount of them off quickly too. I remember seeing an ad in an aviation booklet advertising them for sale.
 
Flysmart1
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:43 pm

Getting back to the original topic- When the JFK IAB Bridges were installed in 1970, they had three jetways. Two apron drive units for L-1 (First Class), L-2 for Business/ Economy, and over wing L-4 for straight economy. Around 1990, they replaced the two apron drives with one single apron drive in the L-1 position.

Further justification that a wide body like the 747 can enplane/ deplane just fine with one bridge.
 
DUSdude
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:01 pm

Flysmart1 wrote:
Getting back to the original topic- When the JFK IAB Bridges were installed in 1970, they had three jetways. Two apron drive units for L-1 (First Class), L-2 for Business/ Economy, and over wing L-4 for straight economy. Around 1990, they replaced the two apron drives with one single apron drive in the L-1 position.

Further justification that a wide body like the 747 can enplane/ deplane just fine with one bridge.


It seems that the original thinking behind the number of jetbridges had more to do with keeping the passenger classes separate rather than managing volume, since all the economy passengers would be going through one bridge anyway. As there are only few premium passengers in any case, the utility of those additional bridges for them is limited to begin with from a people flow perspective.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:27 pm

What is amazing is how the expansion of the Pan Am Worldport was seen as revolutionary at the time (1970) when it was expanded to handle the 747s, when it fact, little was done to make the interior larger and make the flow of traffic improved.
 
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varsity
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:36 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Kbud wrote:
pythoniels wrote:
I see a jetbridge right of the SK 747, however where would the aircraft park? There seems no/not much space due to crossing verhicles underneath the wing.

Very nice picture though, love these pictures with all classic planes, with Concorde being the highlight of course.

I don’t think the Alitalia has the jet bridge connected over wing. The support mechanism is there, but that jetway actually looks gone. I see the overwing jetways for the Air France 747, Swissair 747 and SAS DC-10, but they all seem to be just dangling. I flew out of that terminal in the 80s on an Alitalia 747 to Milan. The other thing I noticed was having almost no windows in the terminal. I was accompanying my Dad. If my memory is correct, I believe we went into a lounge on the 2nd floor that had a window. I seem to remember being in aww of all the awesome int’l tails.


You are correct. The old IAB at JFK had very few windows post security and was a generally miserable place to fly from. The ceilings were low at the wings on each end. The central part of the structure was also generally windowless, charmless, and could get crowded at peak times. Check in areas were at street level and one thing that was very cool about the IAB was all the individual airline signage on the front of the building by each company's dedicated area. The gates themselves had large signs that would light up "BOARDING" and flash "BOARDING" in an orange/red lighting. A lot (but not all) of the airline lounges were upstairs and faced the roadway, and most were simply not nice. I flew out of there as a kid many times on AZ and SR growing up. My last flight out of the IAB was on VS 10 to LHR in August 1998 (the last VS departure for the day out of JFK at 11:10pm). We left from the same gate that the SR 747 is parked at in this photo. The HVAC failed in the terminal that afternoon and it was stifling. The IAB was a relic of the early days of jet travel when most of these buildings were built and designed poorly and with little thought to expansion and of course, not designed for the security requirements of later years, up to and post 9/11. However, this is a very cool photo and a reminder of the broad diversity of airlines that rule JFK operations.


I was only in this building late in its life, but I thought it was so interesting/strange to check in through the individual "storefronts" which I guess were built for one airline but by that point were sometimes shared by two or three. I remember flying Pan Am, the Sequel, out of the EWD ... they shared their space with RJ and FI, and in fact I think FI ground staff did our check-in. Then you had to go up a flight of stairs/escalator (and I think the airline lounges were in that space upstairs) and go through a door to reach the gates. Security seemed almost invisible ... just the most basic X-ray as you entered each gate area.

I also recall the lack of windows... my buddy and I used to hang out in that upstairs restaurant behind the central departures board just to be able to see out, but we also made fast friends with Fr. Divine, the Catholic priest who staffed the chapel, and he let us planespot out his office window.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:21 am

varsity wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
Kbud wrote:
I don’t think the Alitalia has the jet bridge connected over wing. The support mechanism is there, but that jetway actually looks gone. I see the overwing jetways for the Air France 747, Swissair 747 and SAS DC-10, but they all seem to be just dangling. I flew out of that terminal in the 80s on an Alitalia 747 to Milan. The other thing I noticed was having almost no windows in the terminal. I was accompanying my Dad. If my memory is correct, I believe we went into a lounge on the 2nd floor that had a window. I seem to remember being in aww of all the awesome int’l tails.


You are correct. The old IAB at JFK had very few windows post security and was a generally miserable place to fly from. The ceilings were low at the wings on each end. The central part of the structure was also generally windowless, charmless, and could get crowded at peak times. Check in areas were at street level and one thing that was very cool about the IAB was all the individual airline signage on the front of the building by each company's dedicated area. The gates themselves had large signs that would light up "BOARDING" and flash "BOARDING" in an orange/red lighting. A lot (but not all) of the airline lounges were upstairs and faced the roadway, and most were simply not nice. I flew out of there as a kid many times on AZ and SR growing up. My last flight out of the IAB was on VS 10 to LHR in August 1998 (the last VS departure for the day out of JFK at 11:10pm). We left from the same gate that the SR 747 is parked at in this photo. The HVAC failed in the terminal that afternoon and it was stifling. The IAB was a relic of the early days of jet travel when most of these buildings were built and designed poorly and with little thought to expansion and of course, not designed for the security requirements of later years, up to and post 9/11. However, this is a very cool photo and a reminder of the broad diversity of airlines that rule JFK operations.


I was only in this building late in its life, but I thought it was so interesting/strange to check in through the individual "storefronts" which I guess were built for one airline but by that point were sometimes shared by two or three. I remember flying Pan Am, the Sequel, out of the EWD ... they shared their space with RJ and FI, and in fact I think FI ground staff did our check-in. Then you had to go up a flight of stairs/escalator (and I think the airline lounges were in that space upstairs) and go through a door to reach the gates. Security seemed almost invisible ... just the most basic X-ray as you entered each gate area.

I also recall the lack of windows... my buddy and I used to hang out in that upstairs restaurant behind the central departures board just to be able to see out, but we also made fast friends with Fr. Divine, the Catholic priest who staffed the chapel, and he let us planespot out his office window.


At the top of the individual elevators was a metal door akin to a Mens Room door. Again, no window.

When you walked thru the door you were in a long, wide, windowless hallway. There were stores and a lot of metal doors from check in area escalators. Over each door was a horizontal sign with the airline name down the escalator.

Security was at each gate area like MCI. Most of the terminal was pre security

Terrible design.
 
PresRDC
Posts: 568
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 1999 5:00 am

Re: JFK Old IAB Overwing Jetways

Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:17 pm

Letterman once broadcast a show from the JFK IAB restaurant. There are clips that show scenes from the terminal itself. Grim is the best word I can use to describe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqlJCEqxpoY

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