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Max Q
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Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:43 am

Curious if any operator is currently at least breaking even, let alone profitable
Last edited by Max Q on Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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toobz
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Re: Is there an airline(s) worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:43 am

UPS FedEx to name a couple. But as far as passenger..I doubt it seriously.
 
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PM
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:14 am

Probably quite a few cargo airlines are coining it in!
 
qfba
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:34 am

Alliance Airlines of Australia. They operate a mix of charter and commercial flights in Australia.

They announced today a 24% increase in profits
 
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zeke
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Re: Is there an airline(s) worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:59 am

toobz wrote:
UPS FedEx to name a couple. But as far as passenger..I doubt it seriously.


Add cargolux, they paid a bonus
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SEU
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:59 am

Cargo Airlines are raking in record revenues, I doubt many if any pax carriers are.
 
Hosta
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:43 am

Looks like Korean Air also made a profit.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rly-profit
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:03 pm

Hosta wrote:
Looks like Korean Air also made a profit.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rly-profit

Your link had Asiana in profit too. This is a pleasant surprise! Ok, surprise to myself. A job well done.

Lightsaber
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S0Y
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:05 pm

I believe Omni were making money
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:27 pm

If US carriers just didn't fly, they would not lose so much money.
 
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klm617
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:36 pm

Wideroe.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Exeiowa
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:47 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
If US carriers just didn't fly, they would not lose so much money.


They have to so their money making credit cards keep going! (thats a joke)
 
VRHNM
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:03 pm

CI seems to have made a profit in Q2 2020, mainly attributed to its cargo arm.. Wondering if the same may be the case for CX.

Source (Chinese only): https://tw.stock.yahoo.com/news/%E8%B2% ... 42514.html
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:07 pm

What about the EAS carriers? Any quarterly results on those guys?
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Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
raylee67
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:12 pm

VRHNM wrote:
CI seems to have made a profit in Q2 2020, mainly attributed to its cargo arm.. Wondering if the same may be the case for CX.

Source (Chinese only): https://tw.stock.yahoo.com/news/%E8%B2% ... 42514.html


CX is bleeding money. Although CX has a large fleet of freighters, its pax arm is much larger than CI's, and thus its fixed cost base is more on the pax side.

CI (including Mandarin) has 83 pax aircraft and 18 freighters (17% of fleet is cargo plane)
CX (including Dragon, Air HK and HKExpress) has 201 pax aircraft and 33 freighters (14% of fleet is cargo plane)

CX also has more planes that it has just taken delivery in the last few years (e.g. all the 359 and 351) and those are being heavily depreciated annually (although depreciation itself does not affect cash flow, it is reflected as a loss)

Lastly, there are still some lingering oil hedge loss in 2020 and the effect of political turmoil in HK have been weighing on CX. It was not doing well even before the virus.
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Ziyulu
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:21 pm

Do AA, UA, or DL have all cargo planes only for cargo?
 
CALMSP
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:24 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Do AA, UA, or DL have all cargo planes only for cargo?


no US carrier operates dedicated freighters
 
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zeke
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:27 pm

CALMSP wrote:

no US carrier operates dedicated freighters


Except Fedex, Atlas, UPS, Amazon etc.
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75driver
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:33 pm

zeke wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

no US carrier operates dedicated freighters


Except Fedex, Atlas, UPS, Amazon etc.


Exactly! That’s a ridiculous statement. There are many US carriers with cargo only ops. Geez...

Bottom line, the carriers reporting profits are largely attributed to cargo ops. Cargo is king for now.
 
nws2002
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:33 pm

SY maybe, although they are private so don't release financials. Their CEO said they are building cash. I'm sure the Amazon flying is propping up their pax service though.
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Rifitto
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:34 pm

[/quote]no US carrier operates dedicated freighters[/quote]
Alaska Airlines operates 3 Boeing 737-700F
 
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eastafspot
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:40 pm

Ethiopian Airlines.
Still profitable so far.
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Aliqiout
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:44 pm

CALMSP wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Do AA, UA, or DL have all cargo planes only for cargo?


no US carrier operates dedicated freighters

AS does.
 
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NameOmitted
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:44 pm

CALMSP wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
Do AA, UA, or DL have all cargo planes only for cargo?


no US carrier operates dedicated freighters


Aside from the all-freight airlines, AS operates 3 737-700 freighters.

-edit to add this has been well covered, my apologies for not hitting refresh before I post.
 
CALMSP
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:48 pm

75driver wrote:
zeke wrote:
CALMSP wrote:

no US carrier operates dedicated freighters


Except Fedex, Atlas, UPS, Amazon etc.


Exactly! That’s a ridiculous statement. There are many US carriers with cargo only ops. Geez...

Bottom line, the carriers reporting profits are largely attributed to cargo ops. Cargo is king for now.



he was speaking to pax carriers clearly. read it again if you need to.



.....forgot about the few AS birds.
 
superjeff
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:54 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Do AA, UA, or DL have all cargo planes only for cargo?



No longer. At one time years ago, they all operated some cargo planes, but I think the last all-cargo airplanes were operated by Northwest and discontinued when they got rid of their 747-200 Freighters, years ago.
 
nickpo
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:02 pm

Probably those charter/commercial airlines such as Eastern Airlines or Swift Air, are profitable during this pandemic world. They are having a lot of repatriation flights requested by governments, and their fleet is very small, so they don't have a large number of fix costs. They are still hiring people, so that tells me that they are not doing bad at all.
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drdisque
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:29 pm

The only carriers in the US that are now majority are wholly EAS are Boutique, Southern, Contour, and Air Choice One.

Since they're all private I doubt they state their profitability.

Remember that while EAS routes do have a subsidy, that subsidy is based on also having passenger revenue, so passenger revenue may slide those flights into unprofitable territory.

Boutique and Southern seem to bid rather conservatively and bank on very little passenger revenue so I suspect they're doing OK. Contour is probably struggling with their much larger jets.

Cape Air has a large amount of EAS flying but also a large amount of at-risk flying. They seem to be doing OK as it seems like traffic to ACK and MVY, their biggest at-risk stations, while slower than normal years, is not terrible. However, their EAS flying, particularly the STL-based flying is probably bleeding money as they bid fairly aggressively on it.
 
Varsity1
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:40 pm

Skywest might make money in Q3.
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MIflyer12
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:51 pm

There probably aren't too many IATA passenger carriers that are making a profit.

The EAS guys? How many are public - and not under a holding company with varied business interests - and reporting earnings?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:55 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Hosta wrote:
Looks like Korean Air also made a profit.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rly-profit

Your link had Asiana in profit too. This is a pleasant surprise! Ok, surprise to myself. A job well done.

Lightsaber


Operating income (as Bloomberg cited for Korean) excludes interest expense, impairment charges, and misc income/losses. With a lot of debt and early aircraft retirements that's not a particularly good metric for air carriers these days.
 
AF022
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:58 pm

eastafspot wrote:
Ethiopian Airlines.
Still profitable so far.


I think this is right. I've seen articles like "ET loses $X,000,000,000 due to COVID" but when you read the article it seems to say that they generated X,000,000,000 less than before, not that they lost this amount. ET seems to be doing great.
 
Max Q
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:07 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
If US carriers just didn't fly, they would not lose so much money.



Not true


The big three are all carrying significant amounts of cargo and while passenger count is way down both are sources of incremental revenue



That’s better than none, it’s a question of carefully balancing income vs cost



There’s several more factors involved but another significant one is the CARE’s act which has provided significant financial aid to US carriers provided they continue a basic operation and just as importantly not furlough any employees



That assistance wouldn’t have happened if they had just shut down, and even if you do it’s not as if all the usual bills and massive expenses airlines incur would just stop



There’s real value in being a going concern ‘use it or lose it’ applies to many facets of a carriers operation, just a few include, airport slots, route authorities, pilot currency, aircraft operation avoiding storage and long term maintenance costs



There’s a lot to lose in completely shutting down and it may well be the final straw if you do
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
ITSTours
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:22 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Hosta wrote:
Looks like Korean Air also made a profit.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... rly-profit

Your link had Asiana in profit too. This is a pleasant surprise! Ok, surprise to myself. A job well done.

Lightsaber


Operating income (as Bloomberg cited for Korean) excludes interest expense, impairment charges, and misc income/losses. With a lot of debt and early aircraft retirements that's not a particularly good metric for air carriers these days.


Net income of Korean Air is even more than their operating income.
 
ItnStln
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:33 pm

FedEx, UPS and other cargo carriers I'd assume.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:47 pm

CALMSP wrote:
75driver wrote:
zeke wrote:

Except Fedex, Atlas, UPS, Amazon etc.


Exactly! That’s a ridiculous statement. There are many US carriers with cargo only ops. Geez...

Bottom line, the carriers reporting profits are largely attributed to cargo ops. Cargo is king for now.



he was speaking to pax carriers clearly. read it again if you need to.



.....forgot about the few AS birds.


Sun Country and Mesa are also starting to operate 737 Freighters now. I would expect that once the fleet induction costs are over, Mesa and Sun Country likely will be earning profits from the freighters
 
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enilria
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:38 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
If US carriers just didn't fly, they would not lose so much money.

A lot of airline costs are fixed. Airplane leases/debt. Most of the labor is fixed unless you lay-off. You only save fuel, food, some airport fees, and a little maintenance by not flying. Fuel is fairly cheap now so that is probably ~30% all in. Labor is most of the rest.
 
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JBo
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:11 pm

drdisque wrote:
The only carriers in the US that are now majority are wholly EAS are Boutique, Southern, Contour, and Air Choice One.

Since they're all private I doubt they state their profitability.

Remember that while EAS routes do have a subsidy, that subsidy is based on also having passenger revenue, so passenger revenue may slide those flights into unprofitable territory.

Boutique and Southern seem to bid rather conservatively and bank on very little passenger revenue so I suspect they're doing OK. Contour is probably struggling with their much larger jets.

Cape Air has a large amount of EAS flying but also a large amount of at-risk flying. They seem to be doing OK as it seems like traffic to ACK and MVY, their biggest at-risk stations, while slower than normal years, is not terrible. However, their EAS flying, particularly the STL-based flying is probably bleeding money as they bid fairly aggressively on it.


The DOT also issued an order temporarily allowing EAS contracts to reduce their schedules without penalty during the pandemic drawdown so long as they were maintaining at least 1 flight per day or completing a minimum percentage of their scheduled flights. Not sure offhand if that's still in effect, but it might be.

Edited to add: The only publicly traded carriers that hold EAS contracts in the lower 48 are SkyWest, American, and United (AA and UA both directly hold a few EAS contracts each that are operated by Eagle and UAX carriers).
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Jshank83
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:37 pm

G4 broke even in June or July. Maybe both
 
Ishrion
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:42 pm

Delete
 
vuelti24
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:41 pm

Not sure if making money, but Amaszonas Uruguay flew their only plane quite often in repatriation flights during the pandemic.
 
patdt146
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:30 pm

Max Q wrote:
There’s a lot to lose in completely shutting down and it may well be the final straw if you do


How much does day-to-day maintenance in storage cost an airline like UA,DL,AA? I know this is an enormous expense, but I don't know just how enormous.
 
grozzy
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:35 pm

qfba wrote:
Alliance Airlines of Australia. They operate a mix of charter and commercial flights in Australia.

They announced today a 24% increase in profits

They've been flying the Sydney NRL teams from Bankstown to Queensland and back on game day, so the players and staff can remain in the "bubble"
 
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Antaras
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:35 am

Say hello to VietJet with Đ71 billion ($3 million) of profit in the first half :D

One of the rare profitable LCC nowadays?
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benjjk
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:07 am

grozzy wrote:
qfba wrote:
Alliance Airlines of Australia. They operate a mix of charter and commercial flights in Australia.

They announced today a 24% increase in profits

They've been flying the Sydney NRL teams from Bankstown to Queensland and back on game day, so the players and staff can remain in the "bubble"


And they've just ordered 14 E190s. Surely the only passenger airline to be expanding in 2020.
 
ITSTours
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:12 am

Asiana released the official figure, they made profits (both net and operating). About 100 million USD.
 
AngelsDecay
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:47 am

Quite not a kind of airline, but some Biz and Taxi such as NetJets and VistaJet are doing great these days, like some others on the BizJet market worldwide.
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Ferjer
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:25 am

Wamos air had a bunch of repatriation flights between the US and Phillpines
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:54 pm

OzarkD9S wrote:
What about the EAS carriers? Any quarterly results on those guys?

Most of the EAS carriers in the US are held privately, sometimes by other Corps. Breaking out individual results can be difficult.

For instance, Contour is owned by Corporate Flight Management, a public company, but I can find nothing about q2 results.
Southern Air Express is mostly private, but we know Skywest holds a minority stake.

Don’t know about Boutique.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Is there an airline worldwide that’s not losing money ?

Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:13 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:

For instance, Contour is owned by Corporate Flight Management, a public company, but I can find nothing about q2 results.
Southern Air Express is mostly private, but we know Skywest holds a minority stake.

Don’t know about Boutique.


Fascinating actually. I wasn't aware of the convoluted ownership structures of those carriers. Thanks for the info.
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