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b747400erf
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:53 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BOMFlyer wrote:

Not to be rude, but please check the correct information before making such posts. The captain of the aircraft was a decorated ex-IAF officer with 40+ years of flying experience. All of these 737NG incidents (such as this year's Pegasus Airlines crash in Istanbul and 2019's SpiceJet overshoot in Mumbai) seem to be correlated to inclement weather and poor runway maintenance, especially in the case of IX1344.


ok, but the issue is, given the circumstances, is the Boeing 737NG more septical for wet runways than the A320? So do you need more skill to land a 737NG than an A320 under the same circumstances.



The 737 isn't a difficult airplane to fly or land. It does require basic fundamental stick and rudder pilot skills, much like a Cessna, which an A320 does not.

If you notice there aren't many (if any) 737 flying issues in Europe or the USA.

I'd be curious to see the FOQA data from A320 operators in these developing countries.


I had a post listing the half dozen overruns of 737s in America... but some people can keep spreading false statements unopposed?
 
75driver
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:17 pm

zeke wrote:

It could have been the aircraft that touched down, not the pilot.

In heavy rain I would be more inclined to autoland.


Is it even equipped for CatIII autoland? I know AA’s NG’s didn’t have (might now) the feature for CATIII autoland. I always found autoland to be unnerving. It’s hard to turn over control to an automatic when you spent most of your learning life without them. I trust myself more than a computer but yes, in CATIII conditions with heavy weather when you can’t see it’s usually a better choice regardless of how unnerving it is.
 
jayunited
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:31 pm

MrBretz wrote:
j.mo wrote:


And you might add that he landed down wind. The early reports are now pointing the blame at the pilot who with all his experience made a mistake and sadly paid for it with his life.


Exactly you have to wonder how much of a factor the tail wind played in this accident, landing 1000m down a 2700m runway in the rain and with a tail wind. One thing investigators will look at is when did the pilots deploy full breaking action after landing seeing they only had 1700m of wet concrete ahead of them after touchdown.
 
Antarius
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:50 pm

b747400erf wrote:
Varsity1 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

ok, but the issue is, given the circumstances, is the Boeing 737NG more septical for wet runways than the A320? So do you need more skill to land a 737NG than an A320 under the same circumstances.



The 737 isn't a difficult airplane to fly or land. It does require basic fundamental stick and rudder pilot skills, much like a Cessna, which an A320 does not.

If you notice there aren't many (if any) 737 flying issues in Europe or the USA.

I'd be curious to see the FOQA data from A320 operators in these developing countries.


I had a post listing the half dozen overruns of 737s in America... but some people can keep spreading false statements unopposed?


And I replied stating that 5 incidents in 20 years across 4 airlines isn't really making your point at all.

IX has had 2 runway overshoots and hit 1 wall on takeoff in the last decade.

Repeating the same point doesn't make it relevant.
Last edited by Antarius on Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Antarius
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:53 pm

jayunited wrote:
MrBretz wrote:
j.mo wrote:


And you might add that he landed down wind. The early reports are now pointing the blame at the pilot who with all his experience made a mistake and sadly paid for it with his life.


Exactly you have to wonder how much of a factor the tail wind played in this accident, landing 1000m down a 2700m runway in the rain and with a tail wind. One thing investigators will look at is when did the pilots deploy full breaking action after landing seeing they only had 1700m of wet concrete ahead of them after touchdown.


The final approach also appears to have been quite fast as well. So it definitely appears to have played a major role . Of course this is speculation,so will have to see after the investigation
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JBirdAV8r
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:22 pm

75driver wrote:
zeke wrote:

It could have been the aircraft that touched down, not the pilot.

In heavy rain I would be more inclined to autoland.


Is it even equipped for CatIII autoland? I know AA’s NG’s didn’t have (might now) the feature for CATIII autoland. I always found autoland to be unnerving. It’s hard to turn over control to an automatic when you spent most of your learning life without them. I trust myself more than a computer but yes, in CATIII conditions with heavy weather when you can’t see it’s usually a better choice regardless of how unnerving it is.


AA's -800s do have the "feature"...the airplane will do it, but it's not certified--the required checks for certification aren't done/maintained and the pilots aren't trained.

That said, I am amazed how well a hand-flown CAT III using only the HUD works. Still weird and far from relaxing.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:56 pm

Any little bit of float and you can not land! The margin in meters remaining is only in the double digits. Fact.
 
zuckie13
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:00 pm

Wow - If they really had only 1700m of runway remaining when the touched down in what those weather conditions sound like, there was simply now way the plane was stopping before the end of the runway. The second the committed to try and stop at that point, this was inevitable. Probably Medium braking action at best, and with 11 or so knots of tailwind, I'm guessing they'd need at least 6500 feet (a bit under 2000m) of runway - that that's if they slammed on the brakes (like Max Manual) right away.
Last edited by zuckie13 on Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
alasizon
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:04 pm

Avgeek21 wrote:
This crew had 84 meters to spare with Autobrakes 3 and 579 meters with Max Auto. Thats at max landing weight and actual conditions on a wet (braking action good) runway. If it's's anything less than wet/good you can NOT land.


That is with an assumption they are at a max landing weight which is highly unlikely, they were likely closer to about 135k-137k.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:24 pm

j.mo wrote:


737 design is a non-issue, because no design can sustain every crash. With due respect to those lost lives many survived.

India first decides 1)who need to be blamed 2)who shouldn't be blamed and works towards achieving those two goals. 1000m away from landing threshold information leak is probably first step in the misinformation campaign. Don't jump to any conclusions on news leaks.

Aviation boom and third world infrastructure don't go well together.

It could be combination of airport configuration, runway conditions, weather and human factors. First three i.e., tabletop airport, contaminated runway surface and monsoon are known issues, ignoring those and going directly to blame the pilot or airframe design is not the right way to analyze things.

The way nose section separated and injuries suggests MLG hit a moat or something, and inertia took the toll on frame and humans.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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zeke
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:46 pm

75driver wrote:

Is it even equipped for CatIII autoland? I know AA’s NG’s didn’t have (might now) the feature for CATIII autoland. I always found autoland to be unnerving. It’s hard to turn over control to an automatic when you spent most of your learning life without them. I trust myself more than a computer but yes, in CATIII conditions with heavy weather when you can’t see it’s usually a better choice regardless of how unnerving it is.


I don’t understand your post at all or what AA has to do with this accident. The aircraft avionics has no idea of the external environmental conditions when it autolands. It will happily autoland in day VMC, if your uncomfortable doing an autoland maybe flying is not the career for you.

jayunited wrote:
Exactly you have to wonder how much of a factor the tail wind played in this accident, landing 1000m down a 2700m runway in the rain and with a tail wind. One thing investigators will look at is when did the pilots deploy full breaking action after landing seeing they only had 1700m of wet concrete ahead of them after touchdown.


The “touching down 1000m in” is nothing more than
media click bait. Landing with 10 kt tail is not uncommon. It is slightly uphill in the direction they landed.

When you go into the charts to work out landing performance it includes the distance when the aircraft is still airborne crossing the threshold to when it comes to a stop. Landing distance is not just the landing roll.

Have a look at a satellite picture of the runway to see for yourself to see where the touchdown zone is, the runway has a published slightly higher threshold crossing height.
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robertm46
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:11 pm

The 737NG -800 is longer than the earlier 737's. This means that the you cannot have as much full down flap extension as you would with a shorter version. This is done to eliminate possible tail strike on landing. This also means that the approach airspeed will be a bit higher with less "full" flap extension (aerodynamically speaking). IF you have an extra 10 knots of airspeed, a tailwind, heavy rain and a soaking wet runway you have to land correctly in the touchdown zone or you may well run out of usable runway more quickly than you thought...or even than you calculated. Looks like another unstable approach with excessive speed landing too far down the very wet runway. It's not about hours or ratings, it's about crew judgement.
 
75driver
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:41 pm

zeke wrote:

I don’t understand your post at all or what AA has to do with this accident. The aircraft avionics has no idea of the external environmental conditions when it autolands. It will happily autoland in day VMC, if your uncomfortable doing an autoland maybe flying is not the career for you.


You don’t understand what? That there are two different automatic options for an 800? I realize analogies can be challenging for some. There would never be different configurations between operators, right? Except, let’s say, DL elected to certify and train for full automatic vs AA deciding to train for handflying with a HUD in CAT III conditions? Nah, couldn’t happen.

I was simply pointing out there are NG/pilots not certified for straight up autolands and wondered if this ac/pilots were similar. Do you even know if this NG was full automatic certified or was it HUD? That’s the bloody point and both are very different.

You’re right though, flying was not for me. After 34 years it was best to let the Kompany kick me to the curb as they realized I was a liability. Pffft
 
kartenator
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:01 pm

How come there was no fire?
 
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zeke
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:06 pm

75driver wrote:
Except, let’s say, DL elected to certify and train for full automatic vs AA deciding to train for handflying with a HUD in CAT III conditions? Nah, couldn’t happen.


Who cares what AA or DL do, totally irrelevant to this accident.

75driver wrote:
Do you even know if this NG was full automatic certified or was it HUD? That’s the point and both are very different.


Obviously someone who has never flown in India. Very common for LVO due pollution.

“The airline is now 100 per cent CAT III B certified and all its pilots have also completed the low visibility training, required for carrying out operations in foggy conditions. Domestic airlines are required to deploy only CAT-III compliant planes and crew trained to fly under low visibility conditions while operating in and out of a CAT-III.”

From https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... s-4958860/
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
zuckie13
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:14 pm

kartenator wrote:
How come there was no fire?


It was raining and the ground was wet, so that would have helped.
Also looked like the Wings stayed relatively intact - probably limited the rate that fuel was spilled - and prevented it from atomizing which is what will really flash over a fire.
 
airboss787
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:32 pm

Is it possible that the cockpit crew just didn't see that they landed 1000m past the runway? Visibility was bad, so maybe they didn't realize it was that far ahead and by the time they did, it was too late? How heavy does the rain have to be to not see anything? The question of why they didn't divert might be another topic.
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zeke
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:41 pm

airboss787 wrote:
Is it possible that the cockpit crew just didn't see that they landed 1000m past the runway? Visibility was bad, so maybe they didn't realize it was that far ahead and by the time they did, it was too late? How heavy does the rain have to be to not see anything? The question of why they didn't divert might be another topic.


As I stated earlier in this thread, the runway has simple touchdown zone lights on the runway. If you are not familiar with what they are this is the AIP SUP.

https://aim-india.aai.aero/sites/defaul ... 017_62.pdf
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jayunited
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:56 pm

zeke wrote:
The “touching down 1000m in” is nothing more than
media click bait. Landing with 10 kt tail is not uncommon. It is slightly uphill in the direction they landed.

When you go into the charts to work out landing performance it includes the distance when the aircraft is still airborne crossing the threshold to when it comes to a stop. Landing distance is not just the landing roll.

Have a look at a satellite picture of the runway to see for yourself to see where the touchdown zone is, the runway has a published slightly higher threshold crossing height.


I know landing distance is not just the roll, I know the touch down zone is about 1,000 feet from the end of the runway, so on a 2,700 meter runway if we covert it into feet it equals around 8,858 feet, if we now take into account the the threshold of around 1,000 feet it means they had around 7,858 feet of usable concrete. When they left Dubai I'm assuming it was raining so they had already taken into account a wet runway on arrival which as you already know increased their stopping distance, and of course we have the 10kt tailwind to contend with. Other questions are what was the reported braking action before they landed? Were there any active MEL's on the aircraft perhaps related to their thrust reverses, the autobrake system, or even the anti-skid system. If there were no issues with any of those systems and the autobrake system was working perfectly what setting did they select?

So the article stated they land 1,000m (or 3,280 feet) down the runway, it may be click bait as you claim but then again it may not be. In time the black boxes will shed light on that topic of where the aircraft actually touch down. But what we do know for now is for reasons unknown (whether weather, mechanical, and/or landing long) the pilots were not able to bring their aircraft to a complete stop before running out of concrete on a 2,700m or a 8,858 foot long runway (before taking into account the threshold).
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:27 am

Are there any airports in India with EMAS?
 
Antarius
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:14 am

phatfarmlines wrote:
Are there any airports in India with EMAS?


Per wiki and a cursory search, no.

Also, based on this article (granted a few years ago) says EMAS was recommended but not implemented at CCJ

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/ko ... 378798.ece
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Sokes
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:55 am

75driver wrote:
I have a tremendous respect for everyone in the industry but couldn’t care less about “passengers” seemingly becoming aeronautical engineer types when discussing accidents.
...
Give it a rest, especially you armchairs. Geez...

I chop in as an armchair.
One doesn't need to be a pilot. It's enough if one knows about statistics.
The comment of Antarius is excellent. Five incidents in 20 years. However as IX got two we should in case of doubt not attribute them to the plane.
But then it's unlikely that IX is the only emerging economy airline that has issues.
How many A320/ A321 incidents?

I once drove with my car up the Western Ghats (the mountain range along India's West coast). Though I had my wiper full speed I decided visibility is not enough for even 30 km/ h. So I just put the warning light and stopped. How a pilot is to not autoland in something like this is beyond my imagination. But then do we already know this?

Several hypotheses:
-Pilots are instructed to avoid diversions in order to avoid financial losses.
-The pilot found it an interesting challenge. It's a dominance and submission society, so the copilot may feel backward to object.
Moreover Indians are not very rule oriented. They like to make sense out of a situation. Good choice if all factors are considered, not so good choice if one forgot one factor. Now that's a cultural issue. I don't know in how far airlines can control this, e. g. by harsh punishments.
-Is there aquaplaning with airline tyres?

That an airport with somewhat shorter runway and regular monsoon rains doesn't have EMAS sounds nuts, especially in an emerging economy in which all kind of funny factors can play a role.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
avier
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:27 am

Some analysis by an expert who investigated their earlier crash at Mangalore.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... ovwVJ.html



zeke wrote:
75driver wrote:

Is it even equipped for CatIII autoland? I know AA’s NG’s didn’t have (might now) the feature for CATIII autoland. I always found autoland to be unnerving. It’s hard to turn over control to an automatic when you spent most of your learning life without them. I trust myself more than a computer but yes, in CATIII conditions with heavy weather when you can’t see it’s usually a better choice regardless of how unnerving it is.


I don’t understand your post at all or what AA has to do with this accident. The aircraft avionics has no idea of the external environmental conditions when it autolands. It will happily autoland in day VMC, if your uncomfortable doing an autoland maybe flying is not the career for you.

I then wonder about the future of air travel with so-called pilotless aircraft and the kind of technology they'd need to analyse all those external factors.
 
AirwayBill
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:39 am

Sokes wrote:
-Is there aquaplaning with airline tyres?



Oh, yes.

The Qantas 747 overshoot in Bangkok is a famous example of hydroplaning with an airliner.

Lucky folks onboard that day (very poor CRM practices and adverse weather):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_1
Last edited by AirwayBill on Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
pune
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:42 am

was hoping to see this incident shared at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1448421 but anyways, now that it's here is good and have back-linked to the Indian civil aviation fora as well, so anybody looking for discussions on this there comes here and vice-versa.
 
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zeke
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:44 am

jayunited wrote:
I know landing distance is not just the roll, I know the touch down zone is about 1,000 feet from the end of the runway, so on a 2,700 meter runway if we covert it into feet it equals around 8,858 feet, if we now take into account the the threshold of around 1,000 feet it means they had around 7,858 feet of usable concrete.


What you "know" is incorrect, have a look at the satellite image of the runway. The runway is over 2400m so it has 6 pairs of touchdown markers with a displaced aim point on 10, as I mentioned earlier if has a slightly higher than normal TCH hence the displaced aim point.

jayunited wrote:
When they left Dubai I'm assuming it was raining so they had already taken into account a wet runway on arrival which as you already know increased their stopping distance, and of course we have the 10kt tailwind to contend with.


I highly doubt the left DXB accounting for a contaminated runway.

jayunited wrote:
So the article stated they land 1,000m (or 3,280 feet) down the runway


It didnt actually say that did it, look at the exact words, "touched down near a taxiway that is around 1,000 metres from the beginning of the runway ", fact is the end of the touchdown zone on the runway is at 922 meters,

jayunited wrote:
In time the black boxes will shed light on that topic of where the aircraft actually touch down.


They have already been recovered.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Sokes
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:18 am

avier wrote:
Some analysis by an expert who investigated their earlier crash at Mangalore.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... ovwVJ.html

How did they analyze that the pilot was fallen asleep? Snoring on the blackbox?
Also: We're both pilots snoring?
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
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767333ER
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:36 pm

It’s times like this you look back and say if only they had diverted or been able to hold for better weather if it was that bad (IDK the culture of this airline or how they like to fuel their planes). We will see with time what exactly happened, I feel like we’ll see the choices were not made right here. What’s not surprising is another 738 broken up into the same 3 pieces and that ain’t a safety feature.

75driver wrote:
I have a tremendous respect for everyone in the industry but couldn’t care less about “passengers” seemingly becoming aeronautical engineer types when discussing accidents.

I’m sure there are pilots who will agree with me. I flew this exact type and the nonsensical claim of the aeroplane being inherently at fault is ridiculous. You land 1000M beyond the keys in rain and wind you’ve got problems no matter what ac you’re flying. Obviously the weather was challenging. It’s a bad situation for those involved and their families. However, there is nothing mechanically or structurally wrong with this type. Give it a rest, especially you armchairs. Geez...

All things considered in this situation, yes it is exceedingly likely wasn’t the aircraft’s fault that they got into this situation; however, 737-800/900 runway overruns still are suspiciously common regardless of this event in any part of the world be that in a country that issues fake licenses or one that doesn’t. The fuselage crumbling in the same 3 places is also suspiciously common and is said to be due to poor fuselage joining design or due to poor quality control. Design flaws or not, if it’s on the pilots that the plane got into the situation, then that’s where the buck should’ve stopped to prevent it all since that is the beginning of the chain of events that sent this plane off the man made cliff.

There is quite a bit that has been said to be wrong with the 737NG’s construction such as force fitted or redrilled parts that otherwise do not conform to standard. There is premature corrosion in fuselage joints among other places and this is a known issue. There was the premature corrosion of the pickle forks. There were assembly line employees that tried to voice their concern apparently only to be told to shut up. I do have to say you seem to care a lot about armchair experts for someone who couldn’t care less about them.
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SRQLOT
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:44 pm

I didn't see this posted on here, but one of the passengers said it took 45 minutes for them to me helped in the back!?!?

"After a 45-minute wait, during which emergency workers helped passengers out of the wrecked front of the plane, Junaid and the rest at the back were helped down."

I get it the 3 minutes might not be manageable to evacuate everyone in this kind of situation, but for people to stay on the aircraft for that long? I just can't imagine that and I think is unacceptable. Emergency services were helping out those in the front, but no one could have opened the doors in the back??? Seeing how crashes, emergencies and other transportation events are handled in some parts of the world are definitely a head scratcher.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dont-want-fl ... 35260.html
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717 733/7/8/9/M8 744 752/3 763 788 319/20/21 332/3 M90 RJ85 CR9 Q400 E7/95 (PA28,152)
 
Antarius
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:08 pm

767333ER wrote:
There is quite a bit that has been said to be wrong with the 737NG’s construction such as force fitted or redrilled parts that otherwise do not conform to standard. There is premature corrosion in fuselage joints among other places and this is a known issue. There was the premature corrosion of the pickle forks. There were assembly line employees that tried to voice their concern apparently only to be told to shut up. I do have to say you seem to care a lot about armchair experts for someone who couldn’t care less about them.


There are 7000+ 737 NGs delivered and in regular service. Given the lack of major incidents due to the airframe, it is a fair statement to make that the 737 NG is not a flawed design like a.net likes to paint it to be. It is able to safely operate while being economically effective for its operators. Is it a perfect airframe, no. But nothing is. Every single aircraft out there from the 777 to the a320 to the a330 to the 787 has had issues that are caught and fixed.

Seven thousand. The math does not indicate anything except that the aircraft works extremely well. Somehow expecting the plane to not break into pieces after falling 60 feet is an absolutely ridiculous standard.
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AC1
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:19 pm

A suggestion for the forum. When there is an event like this, it might be a good idea to create 2 threads: 1) for simple facts and photos to be posted, but with no personal opinions. 2) People’s thoughts and opinions.
As always, this thread initially descended into chaos and arguing, with a lot of speculation and very little expert opinion. It is always hard to follow 2 people arguing each other in a back and forth that will never be resolved.
Just my thought on how to improve the forum.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:06 pm

Antarius wrote:
767333ER wrote:
There is quite a bit that has been said to be wrong with the 737NG’s construction such as force fitted or redrilled parts that otherwise do not conform to standard. There is premature corrosion in fuselage joints among other places and this is a known issue. There was the premature corrosion of the pickle forks. There were assembly line employees that tried to voice their concern apparently only to be told to shut up. I do have to say you seem to care a lot about armchair experts for someone who couldn’t care less about them.


There are 7000+ 737 NGs delivered and in regular service. Given the lack of major incidents due to the airframe, it is a fair statement to make that the 737 NG is not a flawed design like a.net likes to paint it to be. It is able to safely operate while being economically effective for its operators. Is it a perfect airframe, no. But nothing is. Every single aircraft out there from the 777 to the a320 to the a330 to the 787 has had issues that are caught and fixed.

Seven thousand. The math does not indicate anything except that the aircraft works extremely well. Somehow expecting the plane to not break into pieces after falling 60 feet is an absolutely ridiculous standard.

What G load did the airframe break apart at? If any part exceeded 9G, even 9.01G, then an airframe is outside of regulations. Build as light as possible to get to required, go even 1 erg more energy than required, and it could shatter into a pile of sugar sized pieces and be ok.

A 60 foot fall can be up to 140 G (assuming 4 inches of soil compression) or less if the fuselage collapsed.

The conditions shouldn't have been landed in. It wasn't the plane's fault.

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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:24 pm

Sad to say but the only way this will improve is if lawyers get involved. Sue the airline if they aren't providing the monsoon training described earlier in this thread. Sue the airport if they aren't taking common sense precautions for an tabletop airport in a monsoon prone region like grooving the runway or providing EMAS. Sue the manufacturer if the airframe or the chairs are not strong enough.
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:38 pm

kartenator wrote:
How come there was no fire?


Apparently the pilots cut the engines before they went off the end of the runway. I read an article that confirmed this. Talk about some incredible heroism right there. These pilots knew if they had just sat there, the likelihood of a severe fire was real.

I really do hope this brings a new urgency to do something on these tabletop Airports. They should extend the length of the of the property, and include EMAS. I know it would be costly, but it's just common sense at this point. Everyone on that plane should have survived.
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:05 pm

F9Animal wrote:
kartenator wrote:
How come there was no fire?


Apparently the pilots cut the engines before they went off the end of the runway. I read an article that confirmed this. Talk about some incredible heroism right there. These pilots knew if they had just sat there, the likelihood of a severe fire was real.

I really do hope this brings a new urgency to do something on these tabletop Airports. They should extend the length of the of the property, and include EMAS. I know it would be costly, but it's just common sense at this point. Everyone on that plane should have survived.


Wouldn't applying TOGA power be the more appropriate choice than cutting the engines? At least try to get airborne?

They have to have known the end of the runway was coming.
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:09 pm

Fuel cutoff levers are still up in the run position t/r levers are up.They we’re still trying like heck to stop.RIP.
 
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:11 pm

Any information yet about their speed when leaving the runway, CCTV for example.
 
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:14 pm

I do hope EMAS gets implemented soon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineere ... tor_system although doubt it will happen soonish. I have been to Kerala few times, although only once during the rains and that was in a bus. Visibility was near zero but somehow the bus driver was able to drive. This was in Kollam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kollam and about a decade or so before. The rains were much more severe than whatever we experience in Maharashtra. Incidentally, last two years Kerala has been witness to massive floods, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Kerala_floods and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Kerala_floods . What I am trying to say that Kerala especially during the monsoons has severity which perhaps the pilots and the gear has not been equipped or trained for in the indian scale of things. I do hope that investigation is carried out in a transparent manner (rare but still) and changes are made to the airport so such incidents don't happen ever again.
 
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:21 pm

767333ER wrote:
It’s times like this you look back and say if only they had diverted or been able to hold for better weather if it was that bad (IDK the culture of this airline or how they like to fuel their planes).


That is because countries are building runways in wrong places. They are sacrificing safety to maximize usable runway because people want bigger jets. People don't want "Pankhe wali Chidiya"(Bird with fans) a slang for Turboprop.

Also, apart from cost, there are several non-aviation related issues why airport safety being compromised.

Result runway excursions into beaches in Indonesia or into gouges in India.
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:28 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
767333ER wrote:
It’s times like this you look back and say if only they had diverted or been able to hold for better weather if it was that bad (IDK the culture of this airline or how they like to fuel their planes).


That is because countries are building runways in wrong places. They are sacrificing safety to maximize usable runway because people want bigger jets. People don't want "Pankhe wali Chidiya"(Bird with fans) a slang for Turboprop.

Also, apart from cost, there are several non-aviation related issues why airport safety being compromised.

Result runway excursions into beaches in Indonesia or into gouges in India.


You forgot rivers in Florida
 
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:40 pm

Revelation wrote:
Sad to say but the only way this will improve is if lawyers get involved. Sue the airline if they aren't providing the monsoon training described earlier in this thread. Sue the airport if they aren't taking common sense precautions for an tabletop airport in a monsoon prone region like grooving the runway or providing EMAS. Sue the manufacturer if the airframe or the chairs are not strong enough.

Unfortunately, some may see it in the opposite, many societies are not (yet) as litigious as the US. No incentive for change.
 
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:25 pm

Hard to make EMAS work on a slope like this airport or Mangalore’s airport. The design either fills in the terrain for EMAS installation or shortens the runway to accommodate the EMAS.

Better option is to refuse the tailwind landing which I’ve been with pilots who are reluctant to argue the matter with ATC. I was going into Porto Alegre one dark and stormy night from Rio Dumont, ATC “assigns” an approach to a tailwind (more than 10 knots, IIRC). Co-pilot starts loading the approach, I tell him to tell ATC we want the opposite direction. He replies that that’s ATC is using. “Well, who’s flying this plane, us or him?” I’ve often seen reluctance in countering ATC “suggestions”.
 
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:30 pm

Revelation wrote:
Sad to say but the only way this will improve is if lawyers get involved. Sue the airline if they aren't providing the monsoon training described earlier in this thread. Sue the airport if they aren't taking common sense precautions for an tabletop airport in a monsoon prone region like grooving the runway or providing EMAS. Sue the manufacturer if the airframe or the chairs are not strong enough.


That's a very American way of thinking. There are countries - Germany comes to mind - with safe infrastructure, competent operation and effective regulation that don't rely on big punitive damages from tort cases.
 
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:53 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Sad to say but the only way this will improve is if lawyers get involved. Sue the airline if they aren't providing the monsoon training described earlier in this thread. Sue the airport if they aren't taking common sense precautions for an tabletop airport in a monsoon prone region like grooving the runway or providing EMAS. Sue the manufacturer if the airframe or the chairs are not strong enough.


That's a very American way of thinking. There are countries - Germany comes to mind - with safe infrastructure, competent operation and effective regulation that don't rely on big punitive damages from tort cases.


Very true. What Germany has is strong regulations and consumer protections. The US is more laissez faire in that regard which shifts the burden to tort law.
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:01 pm

Revelation wrote:
Sad to say but the only way this will improve is if lawyers get involved. Sue the airline if they aren't providing the monsoon training described earlier in this thread. Sue the airport if they aren't taking common sense precautions for an tabletop airport in a monsoon prone region like grooving the runway or providing EMAS. Sue the manufacturer if the airframe or the chairs are not strong enough.


Monsoon training issue was a generic comment mostly about private carriers, Air India group has higher training standards, not saying every AI pilot goes through refresher training every monsoon season, but in my opinion AI crew keeps it current.

Runway upkeep, particularly rubber removal is a known issue.

EMAS - Airport can literally use "Act of God" defense. If the runway is stuck between two places of religious importance with limited scope for length and some politician wants a WB capable runway, EMAS gets the shaft. Pull up the airport map and look around.

Airframe - I think no frame would come out intact dealing with such forces.

Crew should be last line of defense, stacking all other issues and betting on them is a recipe for disaster. But the world seems to go that way.
All posts are just opinions.
 
cat3appr50
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:03 pm

cat3appr50 wrote:
Based on the flight route and WX including winds aloft and stated passenger loading, calc. fuel and normal contingency, final reserves, etc. estimated landing weight would have been around 135,000 lbs. Estimated Vref30 would be around 143 knots, and with A’Br 3 in rain per VOCL METAR, it would provide an acceptable landing margin with the Rwy 10 LDA, even with a 12-13 kn TW (with landing in the TDZ).

Don’t know if they landed long as the Flightaware data stops at 6.9 DME Rwy10, so don’t know where touchdown was actually at on Rwy 10, or the landing speed. As a reminder, remember the SWA overrun accident at KMDW in Dec. 2005 primarily due to delayed thrust reverser actuation. What A'Br setting was actually used, were the spoilers armed, and were the thrust reversers engaged promptly?


Based on the updated information from the AH, that the aircraft landed abeam Txwy C, and adjusting the LDA for the difference in normal touchdown point to the actual (abnormal) touchdown point, calcs. indicate that would have been around 0 to -50 ft. runway remaining margin given the previous landing data originally posted (above), and that is with normal thrust reverser actuation time...i.e. landing calcs. agree with what actually happened. .
Last edited by cat3appr50 on Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:06 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Hard to make EMAS work on a slope like this airport or Mangalore’s airport. The design either fills in the terrain for EMAS installation or shortens the runway to accommodate the EMAS.

Better option is to refuse the tailwind landing which I’ve been with pilots who are reluctant to argue the matter with ATC. I was going into Porto Alegre one dark and stormy night from Rio Dumont, ATC “assigns” an approach to a tailwind (more than 10 knots, IIRC). Co-pilot starts loading the approach, I tell him to tell ATC we want the opposite direction. He replies that that’s ATC is using. “Well, who’s flying this plane, us or him?” I’ve often seen reluctance in countering ATC “suggestions”.


CCJ does have the space though. It has an 800 foot RESA. EMAS was considered but it seems to have been scrapped purely due to cost.

Previously, both the AAI and the DGCA had rejected the proposal of Engineered Materials Arresting System (EMAS) technology to ensure safety at the airport saying that the widening of RESA would be enough in case of an aircraft overrunning the table-top runway.


https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/ko ... 283531.ece
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:23 pm

zeke wrote:
jayunited wrote:
I know landing distance is not just the roll, I know the touch down zone is about 1,000 feet from the end of the runway, so on a 2,700 meter runway if we covert it into feet it equals around 8,858 feet, if we now take into account the the threshold of around 1,000 feet it means they had around 7,858 feet of usable concrete.


What you "know" is incorrect, have a look at the satellite image of the runway. The runway is over 2400m so it has 6 pairs of touchdown markers with a displaced aim point on 10, as I mentioned earlier if has a slightly higher than normal TCH hence the displaced aim point.

jayunited wrote:
When they left Dubai I'm assuming it was raining so they had already taken into account a wet runway on arrival which as you already know increased their stopping distance, and of course we have the 10kt tailwind to contend with.


I highly doubt the left DXB accounting for a contaminated runway.

jayunited wrote:
So the article stated they land 1,000m (or 3,280 feet) down the runway


It didnt actually say that did it, look at the exact words, "touched down near a taxiway that is around 1,000 metres from the beginning of the runway ", fact is the end of the touchdown zone on the runway is at 922 meters,

jayunited wrote:
In time the black boxes will shed light on that topic of where the aircraft actually touch down.


They have already been recovered.


Okay I did look at the satellite image and yes the end of touch down zone is around 922 meters. It still begs the the question were did they land and how much concrete was ahead of them after they landed? Did the aircraft float a bit more the the pilot wanted, was it mechanical failure, and/or what factor did the weather play?

Zeke I know you know what your talking about and your a smart person but to say that they left DXB and did account for a contaminate runway is highly unlikely unless this weather was not forecast to hit during their arrival. If the weather was forecast it should have been included in the dispatch release and they would have had to account for the possibility of a contaminated runway upon arrival which would increase stopping distance. Here at UA if weather is forecast to impact the arrival our dispatchers have to respond (in some cases it can lead to a weight restriction at the up-line station) and account for it in their release. This is especially true if the aircraft is landing on what could possibly be a contaminated surface.
 
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Sad to say but the only way this will improve is if lawyers get involved. Sue the airline if they aren't providing the monsoon training described earlier in this thread. Sue the airport if they aren't taking common sense precautions for an tabletop airport in a monsoon prone region like grooving the runway or providing EMAS. Sue the manufacturer if the airframe or the chairs are not strong enough.

That's a very American way of thinking. There are countries - Germany comes to mind - with safe infrastructure, competent operation and effective regulation that don't rely on big punitive damages from tort cases.

Do you think we can expect India to get to German standards by waiting for people to decide to change? If not, what do you propose?

dtw2hyd wrote:
Monsoon training issue was a generic comment mostly about private carriers, Air India group has higher training standards, not saying every AI pilot goes through refresher training every monsoon season, but in my opinion AI crew keeps it current.

What was posted in #93 provides a different opinion:

“This points to very poor training and safety standards at SpiceJet and AIE,” said Captain Mohan Ranganathan, an aviation safety consultant and a former instructor of the Boeing 737 specialising in wet runway operations training.

“It also points to DGCA turning a blind eye to serious safety issues. The DGCA is being a facilitator for airlines and not a regulator.”

Ranganathan added that the DGCA should have grounded SpiceJet and conducted an independent safety audit by bringing in an outside agency. “The airlines appear to have ignored the mandatory monsoon-related ALAR training. The spate of incidents point to very serious failure,” he said.

“If the ministry of civil aviation and the DGCA care about passenger lives, they should ground the airlines that are incapable of safe operations during the monsoons.”

As above, the question is how to change the status quo.
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Re: Air India Express IX1344 landing accident at Kozhikode

Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:02 am

Revelation wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Monsoon training issue was a generic comment mostly about private carriers, Air India group has higher training standards, not saying every AI pilot goes through refresher training every monsoon season, but in my opinion AI crew keeps it current.

What was posted in #93 provides a different opinion:

“This points to very poor training and safety standards at SpiceJet and AIE,” said Captain Mohan Ranganathan, an aviation safety consultant and a former instructor of the Boeing 737 specialising in wet runway operations training.

“It also points to DGCA turning a blind eye to serious safety issues. The DGCA is being a facilitator for airlines and not a regulator.”

Ranganathan added that the DGCA should have grounded SpiceJet and conducted an independent safety audit by bringing in an outside agency. “The airlines appear to have ignored the mandatory monsoon-related ALAR training. The spate of incidents point to very serious failure,” he said.

“If the ministry of civil aviation and the DGCA care about passenger lives, they should ground the airlines that are incapable of safe operations during the monsoons.”

As above, the question is how to change the status quo.


Being an aviation safety consultant Mr.Ranganathan suggests a lot of good things. If an airline has 1000 pilots not everyone going to be Cat-IIIB ILS trained just because DEL gets fog cover with near zero visibility. As long as those pilots operating to DEL are trained it is good enough, if weather deteriorates and crew are not qualified, they will be diverted to suitable airport. Same with monsoon training, an airline may not train all 1000 every season to the liking of a safety consultant. Doesn't mean they were never trained.

IX1344 is not the only flight landed on tabletop runway in a monsoon season.
All posts are just opinions.

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