Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
kiowa
Topic Author
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:44 pm

I found this interesting. It seems that as most airlines are cleaning more, Southwest is cleaning less. Is the covid cleaning less important than a quicker turn time. Is it even necessary?

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/5/21355 ... round-time
 
ScottB
Posts: 7071
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:51 pm

You might want to present some evidence that "most airlines are cleaning more" since I haven't seen any reports of that. And, as the article you present notes, surface cleaning to reduce Covid risk appears to be mostly hygiene theater as the general scientific consensus has moved to airborne droplets being the predominant mode of transmission by far.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8300
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:08 pm

ScottB wrote:
You might want to present some evidence that "most airlines are cleaning more" since I haven't seen any reports of that.


Sure you have. I don't know if one can make the claim for 'most' across IATA carriers worldwide, but among WN's primary competitor set - AA/DL/UA/AS/B6 - they all claim to be cleaning more.
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2721
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:14 pm

I'm sure Southwest's jets are cleaner than any Walmart or Target people frequent without a second thought.
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 967
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:20 pm

ScottB wrote:
You might want to present some evidence that "most airlines are cleaning more" since I haven't seen any reports of that.


Then you haven't been paying attention at all. The articles and the videos have been everywhere. For example, look at what DL is doing. Massive cleaning program and communication campaign to let the flying public know about what is being done to make flying safer during the pandemic.

https://news.delta.com/it-safe-travel-s ... n-yourself

Regarding WN's decision to cut back on cleaning, this will likely backfire on them. With U.S. cases still rising in many places, now is not the time to reduce cleaning, IMO.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8300
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:20 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
I'm sure Southwest's jets are cleaner than any Walmart or Target people frequent without a second thought.


I'm not sitting down and touching things for three hours at a Target. You're rationalizing a 'less than best' effort by WN.

I'm with the OP on this one: I don't think WN is sending a consistent brand message. They'll book light to keep middle seats open (unlike UA/AA) but don't work as hard to clean the plane? People book based on perceptions as much as reality.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:30 pm

Who was cleaning the seatbelts and armrests during turns prior to this announcement? Was it the FAs or some 3rd party cleaners coming on?
 
as739x
Posts: 5224
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:23 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:31 pm

DL747400 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
You might want to present some evidence that "most airlines are cleaning more" since I haven't seen any reports of that.


Then you haven't been paying attention at all. The articles and the videos have been everywhere. For example, look at what DL is doing. Massive cleaning program and communication campaign to let the flying public know about what is being done to make flying safer during the pandemic.

https://news.delta.com/it-safe-travel-s ... n-yourself

Regarding WN's decision to cut back on cleaning, this will likely backfire on them. With U.S. cases still rising in many places, now is not the time to reduce cleaning, IMO.


Delta's marketing is just that, marketing. Why are they electrostatic cleaning between every flight? That last up to 30 days depending on how often the plane is used. It does't need to be done that often. Southwest probably knows this and isn't going to waste time, resources and money.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
alasizon
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:34 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Who was cleaning the seatbelts and armrests during turns prior to this announcement? Was it the FAs or some 3rd party cleaners coming on?


Nobody. FAs plus any non-revs would tidy the plane up by removing trash and straightening the seat belts but there was nobody going on and doing any sort of chemical based cleaning of the pax cabin between flights prior to COVID.

Once COVID hit, it was a ramp duty to get on and clean the aircraft.
Last edited by alasizon on Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
User avatar
TWA302
Posts: 760
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:17 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:34 pm

So they won't wipe down seatbelts or armrests between flights yet still maintain their 6-7 hour deep-cleans on each plane every night plus the monthly electrostatic cleaning. Honestly not a big deal. Most passengers would do this on their own. I do.
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 753
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:30 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:30 pm

alasizon wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Who was cleaning the seatbelts and armrests during turns prior to this announcement? Was it the FAs or some 3rd party cleaners coming on?


Nobody. FAs plus any non-revs would tidy the plane up by removing trash and straightening the seat belts but there was nobody going on and doing any sort of chemical based cleaning of the pax cabin between flights prior to COVID.

Once COVID hit, it was a ramp duty to get on and clean the aircraft.



I ment once COVID hit. So they had ramp come on and do it? Interesting. I assume ramp is unionized, was it legal to add that duty to them?

I always follow the money, not the theater. So the FAs are going back to putting up the armrests and folding the seatbelts I take it? Not very sanitary, just spreading the covid from seatbelt to seatbelt.
 
gaystudpilot
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:33 pm

Agree that there is a lot of cleaning theatre going on — and not just airlines. We haven’t heard evidence of infection acquisition from surface contact.

We are being asked to do three things:
1. Wear a mask
2. Socially distance
3. Wash hands frequently and thoroughly

In the beginning there were stories of people returning from the grocery store, stripping naked in the garage, putting clothes they had just worn to the grocery store into the laundry machine, wiping down groceries with disinfecting wipes before taking them into the house, leaving canned goods in the garage for three days so that the virus would die and then showering. If that’s what you believe you need to do to stay safe then do it. But the need appears to be inconsistent with what we know about transmission of the virus.

When I hear stories of stores discovering that a worker tested positive for Covid-19 and closed for “deep cleaning” I ask myself, “What exactly is “deep cleaning”? Does anyone really think that every item and surface and the HVAC system in that store was deep cleaned?

Think about all the surfaces on an aircraft, even the high touch surfaces. Think about how long it would take to clean those after each flight; the level of training the cleaners received to do a effective job; the amount of money the airline is willing to pay the cleaners to motivate the cleaners to do a thorough job; and how quickly those high touch surfaces are touched again by a number of passengers — for example, look at the number of hands placed on the top of seat backs as passengers make their way down the aisle to find their seat during boarding and the number of places the window seat passenger touches as he/she moves across the aisle and middle seat to get to the window seat... and the seat belt, the seat recline button, the arm rests, the window shade, the seat back pocket, the air vents, the IFE screen, the seat surfaces.

Do I believe aircraft are cleaned and disinfected to a level that kills any existence of Coronavirus that may be lingering on aircraft surfaces? No. Do I believe the Coronavirus is transmitted via surface contact and a cause of infection. No, not based on data to date.

Therefore, do what you can to protect yourself from others and others from you:
1. Wear a mask
2. Socially distance
3. Wash hands frequently and thoroughly
 
WN732
Posts: 817
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:49 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:11 pm

TWA302 wrote:
So they won't wipe down seatbelts or armrests between flights yet still maintain their 6-7 hour deep-cleans on each plane every night plus the monthly electrostatic cleaning. Honestly not a big deal. Most passengers would do this on their own. I do.


This is a voice of reason. If a passenger is so concerned, they can also bring their own wipes with them.
 
User avatar
OA412
Moderator
Posts: 4790
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2000 6:22 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:23 pm

This seems to be pretty consistent with what the CDC is saying, which is that surface transmission doesn't appear to be the main source of infection. Most experts agree it's a pretty low risk. Just don't touch your face after touching a surface if you don't know whether it's been disinfected. I'm far more concerned about getting it from the people inside the aircraft than from the seat belt, which is why I'm choosing not to fly at the moment.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... reads.html
Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
 
TYWoolman
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:24 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:24 pm

Why on Earth would Southwest claim to be doing this? Shouldn't they have marketed this as: "We are thoroughly cleaning with perfected methods that enable cleanliness to last longer, allowing increased turn-around time to get you to the places you want to get to most." (?)
 
alasizon
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:57 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 6:28 pm

TYWoolman wrote:
Why on Earth would Southwest claim to be doing this? Shouldn't they have marketed this as: "We are thoroughly cleaning with perfected methods that enable cleanliness to last longer, allowing increased turn-around time to get you to the places you want to get to most."


They aren't claiming this or marketing it as anything - there was an internal memo that got out. Keyword being internal.

CobaltScar wrote:
alasizon wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Who was cleaning the seatbelts and armrests during turns prior to this announcement? Was it the FAs or some 3rd party cleaners coming on?


Nobody. FAs plus any non-revs would tidy the plane up by removing trash and straightening the seat belts but there was nobody going on and doing any sort of chemical based cleaning of the pax cabin between flights prior to COVID.

Once COVID hit, it was a ramp duty to get on and clean the aircraft.


I ment once COVID hit. So they had ramp come on and do it? Interesting. I assume ramp is unionized, was it legal to add that duty to them?

I always follow the money, not the theater. So the FAs are going back to putting up the armrests and folding the seatbelts I take it? Not very sanitary, just spreading the covid from seatbelt to seatbelt.


Ramp very much is unionized and they were all trained on proper cleaning procedures. With the shortened operational day - this was a way to give more work to the ramp during their work day in order to keep everyone working. Since cleaning wasn't a protected duty of another workgroup there is no issue adding it to the ramp.
Airport (noun) - A construction site which airplanes tend to frequent
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4340
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:10 pm

I could see handing out a couple wipes for passengers to use on seat belts and trays. But travelers should be carrying wipes themselves. I carry a small sanitizer but seldom use it. I don't touch things on most around town trips.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 704
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:26 pm

Airplanes by nature are not clean places. No airline is going to do a Deep Clean after every flight. I would tell anyone that has severe health issues to stay off an airplane and out of an airport. Even before COVID 19.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1655
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:54 pm

WN is already reducing their cleaning? For those saying this will have a negative impact on their customer perception, I personally don't think their passenger base will have any clue this is changing.

Unfortunately it will be these shortcuts in cleaning that will eventually lead to some type of regulated cleaning.
 
mcdu
Posts: 1655
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:57 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
Airplanes by nature are not clean places. No airline is going to do a Deep Clean after every flight. I would tell anyone that has severe health issues to stay off an airplane and out of an airport. Even before COVID 19.



Airlines are doing electrostatic cabin surface cleaning and have increased turn times due to the reduced schedule to allow for deeper cleaning than in the past. Most airlines are doing these cleaning practices between every segment. WN is not participating in this type of activity.

The first case that is traced to a contact from a WN flight will result in litigation. WN must feel it is cheaper to do without and let it play out in court.
 
BTV290
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:33 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Fri Aug 07, 2020 11:37 pm

mcdu wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
Airplanes by nature are not clean places. No airline is going to do a Deep Clean after every flight. I would tell anyone that has severe health issues to stay off an airplane and out of an airport. Even before COVID 19.



Airlines are doing electrostatic cabin surface cleaning and have increased turn times due to the reduced schedule to allow for deeper cleaning than in the past. Most airlines are doing these cleaning practices between every segment. WN is not participating in this type of activity.

The first case that is traced to a contact from a WN flight will result in litigation. WN must feel it is cheaper to do without and let it play out in court.


I don't see any liability there at all. Got it from a WN flight? Did it come from the arm rest, or the person behind you? Prove it. You can't... And all it'll take is one case to make all of the other claims moot as well.
 
bob75013
Posts: 998
Joined: Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:05 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:32 am

Southwest is applying an anti microbal spray with a 30 day lffe span on every surface - thus is probably is not necessary to clean things between every flight.

Then there is the 6-7 hours / night / plane it spends on deep cleaning every aircraft.
 
StrandedAtMKG
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:51 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:39 am

Idiotic. There's certainly plenty of slack in the fleet, enough that an extra five minutes to wipe down the armrests is totally inconsequential to the bottom line. It's not like there are millions of people lined up to fly right now making every second of turn time count.
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1389
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:19 am

People just constantly touch their mask instead.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 704
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 1:32 am

No idea where people get this idea other airlines are deep cleaning planes between flights. I’ve got 2 flights on AA where the incoming flight shows 1 hour turns. A plane cannot be deep cleaned in a hour. WN is just being honest.
 
ATLgaUSA
Posts: 154
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:58 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:29 am

bob75013 wrote:
Southwest is applying an anti microbal spray with a 30 day lffe span on every surface - thus is probably is not necessary to clean things between every flight.

Then there is the 6-7 hours / night / plane it spends on deep cleaning every aircraft.


There is a difference between antimicrobial and antiviral.
 
kiowa
Topic Author
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:37 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:12 pm

ATLgaUSA wrote:
bob75013 wrote:
Southwest is applying an anti microbal spray with a 30 day lffe span on every surface - thus is probably is not necessary to clean things between every flight.

Then there is the 6-7 hours / night / plane it spends on deep cleaning every aircraft.


There is a difference between antimicrobial and antiviral.



Is there a antimicrobial spray that works on viruses and kills them on contact for a continuous 30 days? If so, that has to be bad for skin contact on the armrests.
 
Vicenza
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:33 pm

BTV290 wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
Airplanes by nature are not clean places. No airline is going to do a Deep Clean after every flight. I would tell anyone that has severe health issues to stay off an airplane and out of an airport. Even before COVID 19.


The first case that is traced to a contact from a WN flight will result in litigation. WN must feel it is cheaper to do without and let it play out in court.


I don't see any liability there at all. Got it from a WN flight? Did it come from the arm rest, or the person behind you? Prove it. You can't... And all it'll take is one case to make all of the other claims moot as well.


Burden of proof in a civil action is considerably less than in criminal litigation......would only take that it happened on a WN flight.
 
UA735WL
Posts: 286
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:08 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:45 pm

Vicenza wrote:
BTV290 wrote:
mcdu wrote:

The first case that is traced to a contact from a WN flight will result in litigation. WN must feel it is cheaper to do without and let it play out in court.


I don't see any liability there at all. Got it from a WN flight? Did it come from the arm rest, or the person behind you? Prove it. You can't... And all it'll take is one case to make all of the other claims moot as well.


Burden of proof in a civil action is considerably less than in criminal litigation......would only take that it happened on a WN flight.



How can you even prove that it happened on the WN flight? You could get it from just being in the airport, or from any manner of sources on the way to the airport. Seems like a dead end, especially since traveling is voluntary.

As mentioned upthread, the most effective measures are social distancing and wearing a mask. Personally I'm glad that it's gradually being realized that a lot of the "precautions" are just theatrics meant to ease the mind and not actual methods of prevention. Kudos to WN for trimming the fat a bit.
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions" -Tex Johnston
 
Vicenza
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:55 pm

UA735WL wrote:
Vicenza wrote:
BTV290 wrote:

I don't see any liability there at all. Got it from a WN flight? Did it come from the arm rest, or the person behind you? Prove it. You can't... And all it'll take is one case to make all of the other claims moot as well.


Burden of proof in a civil action is considerably less than in criminal litigation......would only take that it happened on a WN flight.



How can you even prove that it happened on the WN flight? You could get it from just being in the airport, or from any manner of sources on the way to the airport. Seems like a dead end, especially since traveling is voluntary.

As mentioned upthread, the most effective measures are social distancing and wearing a mask. Personally I'm glad that it's gradually being realized that a lot of the "precautions" are just theatrics meant to ease the mind and not actual methods of prevention. Kudos to WN for trimming the fat a bit.


I'm not stating it has to be definitively 'proven'.....I stated that the burden of proof in a civil action is considerably less than in criminal, and such a claim actually does not have to 'proven'. But if yourself, WN, or any other person/airline want to test how 'trivial' such is they are entirely free to do so......but it may end up being very expensive, both financially and/pr customer perception. Customer perception is a very underestimated component in this forum.
 
777luver
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:44 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:33 pm

Airlines are definitely wiping down every single contact surface and using electrostatic spray, remains to be seen whether or not this will continue after this all settles down. Part of me thinks no because it’s time consuming and OTP is thrown out the window unless the turn time is built in with this in mind.
 
jreeves96
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:05 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:14 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Who was cleaning the seatbelts and armrests during turns prior to this announcement? Was it the FAs or some 3rd party cleaners coming on?


I recently took a SMF-LAX flight on Southwest and they had a 3rd party cleaning crew.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2976
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:20 pm

bob75013 wrote:
Then there is the 6-7 hours / night / plane it spends on deep cleaning every aircraft.


I know WN stated they are spending 6-7 hours per night per aircraft on deep cleaning, but I'm not sure I'm buying it. Only 20% of WN's fleet is still in storage which means WN has around 590 planes in service. For the sake of argument lets say 100 of those 590 frames remain on the ground as spares or for maintenance related reasons and are not used on daily basis. This means on a daily basis WN has around 490 aircraft in service, looking at WN's schedule I'd say 490 is pretty close to accurate.

So WN is spending 6-7 hours every night on every aircraft deep cleaning? I would really love to know how many cleaners are one each aircraft during the overnight hours? If it is more than one cleaner per aircraft that would require an army of workers throughout WN's network who would spend almost their entire overnight shift clean one single frame.
 
Silver1SWA
Posts: 4705
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:11 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:00 pm

jreeves96 wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
Who was cleaning the seatbelts and armrests during turns prior to this announcement? Was it the FAs or some 3rd party cleaners coming on?


I recently took a SMF-LAX flight on Southwest and they had a 3rd party cleaning crew.


They do not use 3rd party cleaning crews during turns, it’s their own ramp and provisioning employees. Pre-pandemic it was FA’s who tidied up the aircraft during the turn.

Third party cleaners are only used for overnight cleaning.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9067
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:43 am

Telling people that surface transmission doesn't seem to be a major mode of transmission actually gives them exactly zero useful information. The fact is that determining a "primary" method of transmission at this point is absolutely and totally an EWAG. We can model how droplets spread, aerosols stay in the air, where droplets get deposited, yada-yada, but the fact is that we don't know any kind of reliable percentage of transmission likelihood. That's why the WHO and the CDC have been all over the place, with one chasing the other to the latest pronouncement.

We do know that flu and norovirus spread very-nicely thank you when people touch a contaminated surface and then touch their face, which an average person does dozens of times per hour without even realizing it. Try paying attention to touching your face like your life depended on it, and you will be shocked how often you do it. One reason that we haven't seen too much obvious transmission in hospital staff by hand-face contact is that -- ta da -- you can't touch your face when you're wearing a mask and a face shield.

This thing can really mess you up, folks, even if you have a mild case and you are otherwise healthy. And it's not just a respiratory virus, is a thrombotic virus as well (which explains "Covid toe"), so the blood clot issues remain in many patients long after the symptoms of the original disease pass and they can go home from the hospital. There is right now a lot of research into what doctors call the sequelae of the disease, because this thing touches off a whole constellation of unusual disease processes in a high percentage of people. Organ damage, strokes, clots, clots, clots -- often discovered long after "recovery".

It seems a gross misjudgment by WN not to make every effort to clean places around where people are going to have to sit for 3 hours, places on which the person in their seat on the previous flight might have deposited lots of virus, by coughing or even just breathing.

I don't care if it's "hygiene theatre" or not. If it's cleaner, it's less likely to kill me. And many people may well act on this info without even thinking about it.

It will be very hard to measure the number of people who say, "Oh, I don't care if Southwest cleans their planes" but then go fly somebody else because "the schedule is more convenient".

Back after 20/20 ran that story in the 90s of how dentists weren't cleaning their equipment in a way that would prevent the transmission of HIV, including some very-persuasive and very-visually-disturbing experiments, my dentist saw a massive falloff in business. People would say, "Oh, I'll come in next week," and then never make an appointment. (I did this myself.) When he sent out a letter to all his patients a few months later saying that he was charging an extra $15 fee per visit to pay for his new autoclave and the shortened life of his $1000+ dental handpiece from autoclaving it, and that he and his staff were masked up, tested negative, and practicing operating-room cleanliness, he was deluged with appointments, including one from me. He told me that business had fallen off virtually overnight, so hard that he nearly had to close his practice, and that the phone started ringing off the hook like 2 days after he sent the letter, but almost everybody that suddenly came back told him that neither the 20/20 piece nor the letter affected their decisionmaking. Wow.

The subconscious is an amazing thing. Southwest should take note.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4340
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:16 pm

At the gym we were suppose to wipe down (some) equipment after using it. It always struck me we should wipe it down before we used it. Not sure you can rely on the other fellow to do so. Anyway I did what was required, especially mats. On a plane what surfaces are most likely to transmit from a touch? My guess is bathrooms, especially handles. Then trays and seat belt buckles, recline button and ??. Why not a small packet of sanitizer wipes instead of peanuts (plus warning not to consume)

wjcandee makes good points. My dentist office keeps calling for me to make an appt, I keep looking for excuses not to.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1603
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:36 pm

wjcandee wrote:
The subconscious is an amazing thing. Southwest should take note.


100% this. Perception is everything.


frmrCapCadet wrote:
At the gym we were suppose to wipe down (some) equipment after using it. It always struck me we should wipe it down before we used it. Not sure you can rely on the other fellow to do so. Anyway I did what was required, especially mats. On a plane what surfaces are most likely to transmit from a touch? My guess is bathrooms, especially handles. Then trays and seat belt buckles, recline button and ??. Why not a small packet of sanitizer wipes instead of peanuts (plus warning not to consume)

wjcandee makes good points. My dentist office keeps calling for me to make an appt, I keep looking for excuses not to.


My gym has really gone out of their way to make wiping equipment down easy. You get your own bottle and own towel right at entry. And there are employees going around wiping everything down as well. I clean equipment before/after use, but maybe I’m paranoid...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
IADFCO
Posts: 198
Joined: Sun May 22, 2016 4:20 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:06 pm

Flying is considered to be a moderate-to-high risk activity, Southwest or otherwise:

https://twitter.com/texmed/status/12790 ... 5afb75823d
 
MKIAZ
Posts: 279
Joined: Thu May 01, 2014 5:24 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:15 pm

DL747400 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
You might want to present some evidence that "most airlines are cleaning more" since I haven't seen any reports of that.


Then you haven't been paying attention at all. The articles and the videos have been everywhere. For example, look at what DL is doing. Massive cleaning program and communication campaign to let the flying public know about what is being done to make flying safer during the pandemic.

https://news.delta.com/it-safe-travel-s ... n-yourself

Regarding WN's decision to cut back on cleaning, this will likely backfire on them. With U.S. cases still rising in many places, now is not the time to reduce cleaning, IMO.


Cleaning is all theatre though. There is a good percentage of people (I know some) that are obsessed with sanitizing surfaces, thinking that will keep them safe.

The reality is you are many many times more likely to catch it from a person (in the airports or on the plane) rather than a surface. But it's not in airlines interests to publicize that so instead we have the obsessive cleaning of surfaces to make people feel good.
 
IAHWorldflyer
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:50 pm

I was at a hotel last week that was used by WN for their crews to overnight in. Met a few crewmembers outside at the bar area, and we chatted about their experiences flying this summer. The FA's told me they had a Covid test every week. The way they spoke about it, it seemed like an employer thing, though maybe they were just doing it on their own for peace of mind. Specifically, I asked if any of them had been making overnight stays in Florida, and their answer was, yes, but would you like to see my Covid test results?
 
brilondon
Posts: 3164
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:00 pm

DL747400 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
You might want to present some evidence that "most airlines are cleaning more" since I haven't seen any reports of that.


Then you haven't been paying attention at all. The articles and the videos have been everywhere. For example, look at what DL is doing. Massive cleaning program and communication campaign to let the flying public know about what is being done to make flying safer during the pandemic.

https://news.delta.com/it-safe-travel-s ... n-yourself

Regarding WN's decision to cut back on cleaning, this will likely backfire on them. With U.S. cases still rising in many places, now is not the time to reduce cleaning, IMO.


Shouldn't this have been done all along? I know it wasn't. The tray tables were never wiped down between flights. They maybe wiped down once at the end of the day but other than that, tray tables are rarely cleaned properly. I bet the carpets have not seen a shampooing ever. Planes don't sit around s much as they use to.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9067
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:07 pm

BTV290 wrote:
mcdu wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
Airplanes by nature are not clean places. No airline is going to do a Deep Clean after every flight. I would tell anyone that has severe health issues to stay off an airplane and out of an airport. Even before COVID 19.



Airlines are doing electrostatic cabin surface cleaning and have increased turn times due to the reduced schedule to allow for deeper cleaning than in the past. Most airlines are doing these cleaning practices between every segment. WN is not participating in this type of activity.

The first case that is traced to a contact from a WN flight will result in litigation. WN must feel it is cheaper to do without and let it play out in court.


I don't see any liability there at all. Got it from a WN flight? Did it come from the arm rest, or the person behind you? Prove it. You can't... And all it'll take is one case to make all of the other claims moot as well.


There's also no proof that Talc causes anything (because it doesn't), but that didn't stop the injury lawyers from milking that to the point that nobody's gonna produce talc anymore,and they're getting insane damage awards.

Proof in a civil suit is by preponderance of the evidence. I.e. more likely than not. Class action suit. Main plaintiffs are horribly-injured (lost a foot, damaged kidney, heart attack, etc.), do it in some rural county in Texas, and the jury award will be CHA-CHING!

The Plaintiffs' lawyers are already putting their heads together on how to handle this type of case, lining up experts, etc. That's why Trump and Congress realize there's going to have to be some protection against these suits or the economy is a goner while the plaintiffs' lawyers line their pockets and buy new Porsches.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 9067
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:10 pm

IAHWorldflyer wrote:
their answer was, yes, but would you like to see my Covid test results?


That sure sounds like a pick-up line to me. I would have said that I had been tested recently, too, and that I had an amazing view of the river from my room -- how is hers?
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 4340
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:16 pm

NWAESC wrote:
wjcandee wrote:
The subconscious is an amazing thing. Southwest should take note.


100% this. Perception is everything.


frmrCapCadet wrote:
At the gym we were suppose to wipe down (some) equipment after using it. It always struck me we should wipe it down before we used it. Not sure you can rely on the other fellow to do so. Anyway I did what was required, especially mats. On a plane what surfaces are most likely to transmit from a touch? My guess is bathrooms, especially handles. Then trays and seat belt buckles, recline button and ??. Why not a small packet of sanitizer wipes instead of peanuts (plus warning not to consume)

wjcandee makes good points. My dentist office keeps calling for me to make an appt, I keep looking for excuses not to.


My gym has really gone out of their way to make wiping equipment down easy. You get your own bottle and own towel right at entry. And there are employees going around wiping everything down as well. I clean equipment before/after use, but maybe I’m paranoid...


I have dropped gym membership, and until a reliable vaccine is available I am doing alternate things. Same with flying and motels. If I should fly it would be with Alaska, Delta, or Southwest.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
NWAESC
Posts: 1603
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:02 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:08 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I have dropped gym membership, and until a reliable vaccine is available I am doing alternate things. Same with flying and motels. If I should fly it would be with Alaska, Delta, or Southwest.


We definitely gave it a lot of thought, but we also have explicit language in our membership that we can pause it if needed.I was super leery about going back, but after seeing all the mitigation efforts, I'm confident it's (relatively) safe.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1733
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:35 pm

I’m glad SWA has taken a common sense approach and essentially will exert due diligence without the near totalitarian driven panic exerted by other airlines.
 
global1
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:38 pm

There’s no such thing as a plane that is “too clean”.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1733
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:57 pm

global1 wrote:
There’s no such thing as a plane that is “too clean”.


That philosophy has killed this industry. If it applies to airliners it would follow that it applies to every other facet of our lives... and that’s an impossible standard. Most of us lived prior to this pandemic, and will live to the next one.
 
User avatar
DL747400
Posts: 967
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:08 pm

brilondon wrote:
Shouldn't this have been done all along? I know it wasn't. The tray tables were never wiped down between flights. They maybe wiped down once at the end of the day but other than that, tray tables are rarely cleaned properly. I bet the carpets have not seen a shampooing ever. Planes don't sit around s much as they use to.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

YES, this level of cleaning should absolutely have been done all along. Deep cleaning of aircraft cabins was far too infrequent prior to COVID-19. Regarding carpets, from what I've seen in recent years, they received spot cleaning on an as needed basis. Since the carpets are made in long strips to fit between the seat tracks in the floor, it was possible to replace worn or damaged sections fairly easily and quickly. As a result, my guess is full-cabin carpet shampooing hasn't been done on a consistent, widescale basis in many years.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
User avatar
atcsundevil
Moderator
Posts: 4299
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:22 pm

Re: Southwest cutting back on aircraft cleaning for Covid

Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:18 pm

Just a reminder that this thread is about Southwest. Developments at other airlines are interesting and worthy of discussion, but please ensure that discussion occurs in a thread where that is the topic of discussion.

✈️ atcsundevil

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos