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Cointrin330
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UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:30 pm

In October 1990, Pan Am agreed to sell its US-Heathrow routes to United Airlines for $400 million dollars. The sale included the right to fly between New York/JFK, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Washington DC, and London Heathrow Airport. It did not include Pan Am's route authority to Heathrow from Detroit and Miami. The DTW-LHR route was shifted to LGW by Pan Am for a few months (for a few days after United began operations at LHR, Pan Am still operated the DTW route before moving it to LGW). The transaction also included Pan Am's route authority between Washington DC (Dulles) and Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport, two Boeing 747-200s operated by Pan Am, and all of Pan Am's facilities at IAD, SFO, and LHR.

Curious if anyone knows how UA initially fleeted the new flights once they began operations. In 1990-91, United had just begun to receive the 747-400 (3 delivered in 1989, 5 in 1990, and 4 in 1991), the bulk of the 747 fleet that existed at the time (100s, 200s, and the SPs) were primarily flying TPAC and Hawaii, though UA launched Europe in 1990 (CDG, FRA) and I believe some of those flights were operated with the 747.

I am curious to know what UA operated once it began Pan Am's routes from JFK, LAX, SFO, SEA, and IAD to LHR and IAD to CDG.

As I recall, by the mid-1990s, JFK had settled around 3 x daily 767-300ERs, as had Seattle, which was dropped by 1996. The 777 was introduced on the LHR-IAD route in June 1995. What did UA operate though in the first years of servicing the LHR routes, and how did it get an EWR-LHR route, which Pan Am did not operate. I remember the EWR route operated with the 747SP for a time, before becoming the first NY area service to Europe on the 777.

Thanks.
 
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:53 pm

United also aquired some (or all?) of Pan Am's intra-european routes from Heathrow. Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris and Hamburg were among them, some others too, operated with 727s. HAM was served until 1994 or 1995, I think they scrapped those intra-europe flights alltogether in the mid 90s.
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:54 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
In October 1990, Pan Am agreed to sell its US-Heathrow routes to United Airlines for $400 million dollars. The sale included the right to fly between New York/JFK, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Washington DC, and London Heathrow Airport. It did not include Pan Am's route authority to Heathrow from Detroit and Miami. The DTW-LHR route was shifted to LGW by Pan Am for a few months (for a few days after United began operations at LHR, Pan Am still operated the DTW route before moving it to LGW). The transaction also included Pan Am's route authority between Washington DC (Dulles) and Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport, two Boeing 747-200s operated by Pan Am, and all of Pan Am's facilities at IAD, SFO, and LHR.

Curious if anyone knows how UA initially fleeted the new flights once they began operations. In 1990-91, United had just begun to receive the 747-400 (3 delivered in 1989, 5 in 1990, and 4 in 1991), the bulk of the 747 fleet that existed at the time (100s, 200s, and the SPs) were primarily flying TPAC and Hawaii, though UA launched Europe in 1990 (CDG, FRA) and I believe some of those flights were operated with the 747.

I am curious to know what UA operated once it began Pan Am's routes from JFK, LAX, SFO, SEA, and IAD to LHR and IAD to CDG.

As I recall, by the mid-1990s, JFK had settled around 3 x daily 767-300ERs, as had Seattle, which was dropped by 1996. The 777 was introduced on the LHR-IAD route in June 1995. What did UA operate though in the first years of servicing the LHR routes, and how did it get an EWR-LHR route, which Pan Am did not operate. I remember the EWR route operated with the 747SP for a time, before becoming the first NY area service to Europe on the 777.

Thanks.

UA also added ORD-LHR after the PA LHR acquisition. After all, what good would Chicago’s Hometown Airline be without a flight between ORD and LHR?

ORD-LHR wasn’t served by PA, just TW (later AA) and BA. That may be where the SEA flights were shifted.


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skipness1E
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:00 pm

We had a thread on this very recently. The bit about Pan Am operating DTW from LHR after United started at LHR is wrong. Bermuda 2 meant Pan Am left one day and that was it, United began the next. 100% there was no overlap where United and Pan Am both operated out of LHR in 1991.
 
MO11
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:07 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:



I am curious to know what UA operated once it began Pan Am's routes from JFK, LAX, SFO, SEA, and IAD to LHR and IAD to CDG.



During the first month, all of the JFK/MIA/SFO-LHR flights were 747-100s. IAD-LHR used 767-200 (one trip used a 747-100), SEA-LHR started with 747-100. The following month (May), EWR-LHR began with a 747SP, LAX-LHR began with 767-300 (couple of SP subs), IAD-LHR was a mix of 767-200s and 747-200s, SEA-LHR started using 767-300s.

CDG-IAD was 767-200.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:04 am

MO11 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:



I am curious to know what UA operated once it began Pan Am's routes from JFK, LAX, SFO, SEA, and IAD to LHR and IAD to CDG.



During the first month, all of the JFK/MIA/SFO-LHR flights were 747-100s. IAD-LHR used 767-200 (one trip used a 747-100), SEA-LHR started with 747-100. The following month (May), EWR-LHR began with a 747SP, LAX-LHR began with 767-300 (couple of SP subs), IAD-LHR was a mix of 767-200s and 747-200s, SEA-LHR started using 767-300s.

CDG-IAD was 767-200.


Thank you! That is great info. As I recall, the 767-300ER fleet at legacy UA wasn't all that large (35 frames) and the deliveries began in 1991.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:07 am

skipness1E wrote:
We had a thread on this very recently. The bit about Pan Am operating DTW from LHR after United started at LHR is wrong. Bermuda 2 meant Pan Am left one day and that was it, United began the next. 100% there was no overlap where United and Pan Am both operated out of LHR in 1991.


Got it. Thanks. I was living near CLE at the time, and the PA flight between DTW and London operated as CLE-DTW-LHR (then LGW) and was flown with an A310. Delta I think continued it very briefly when it bought the remaining TATL network from PA in 1991.
 
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:45 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
the PA flight between DTW and London operated as CLE-DTW-LHR (then LGW) and was flown with an A310. Delta I think continued it very briefly when it bought the remaining TATL network from PA in 1991.


DL operated it very briefly, then ran it CVG-DTW-LGW briefly (IIRC), then dropped it.
 
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:04 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
the PA flight between DTW and London operated as CLE-DTW-LHR (then LGW) and was flown with an A310. Delta I think continued it very briefly when it bought the remaining TATL network from PA in 1991.


DL operated it very briefly, then ran it CVG-DTW-LGW briefly (IIRC), then dropped it.


IINM, it was sold to NW in 1995 in exchange for multiple European route authorities from BOS.
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N649DL
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:53 am

I don't think PA ever operated EWR-LHR but somehow UA got the rights to operate it when the routes were sold off during their liquidation. It was also around the same time when UA announced EWR-NRT which lasted until 1995-1996 as a non-stop. That said, UA's EWR-LHR was the among the first 777 routes ever operated (even ahead of JFK) around 1996. Before that, EWR-LHR on UA was mostly on 747SP or 747-200.

UA's MIA and SEA to LHR service was definitely short-lived IIRC. Legacy UA's EWR-LHR lasted through 2004.
 
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:51 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
the PA flight between DTW and London operated as CLE-DTW-LHR (then LGW) and was flown with an A310. Delta I think continued it very briefly when it bought the remaining TATL network from PA in 1991.


DL operated it very briefly, then ran it CVG-DTW-LGW briefly (IIRC), then dropped it.


DL took over the route from Pan Am in 1991 - CLE-DTW-LGW with a A310 - switched soon after to a L1011, the route was distinctive in that the flight would park at the Berry terminal whereas DL departed from the Smith terminal C concourse. NW acquired the route from DL around 1995. Oddly enough I have picture taken from the end of then runway 21R of the DL L1011 being pushed back from the gate and the puff of smoke start-up of the Rolls-Royce engines.
 
amc737
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:46 am

In 1990 Pan Am had settled into roughly operating up to 9 transatlantic flights per day from Heathrow, 3 daily New York JFK, and 1 daily to Washington IAD, Miami, Detroit, Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles. This was the peak summer schedule, in the winter there where reductions and the west coast routes combined on some days. The Gulf War and recession hit and Pan Am agreed to sell its Heathrow operation to United, this came into effect on 4 April 1991 however the Detroit service was suspended in February 1991, the last day Pan Am operated Detroit to Heathrow was 9 February 1991.

United also temporarily took over Miami to Heathrow, the first arrival was also 4 April 1991. United operated MIA-LHR until 17 May 1991 as UA950, the last arrival was on 18 May 1991. Pan Am re-started Miami London on 18 May 1991 with the first arrival into Gatwick on 19 May 1991. In August 1991 United flew Heathrow to JFK 3 daily, 2 daily to Washington and 1 daily to Newark, San Francisco, Los Angeles and 5 weekly to Seattle. All 747 apart from 1 IAD and 1 JFK which where 767s.

The issue was not just slots it was Bermuda II, United had plenty of slots and it flew intra-Europe in addition to the above. Only a few US cities could have 2 carriers from each country operating, Boston, New York, Miami and Los Angeles. Chicago could only have 1 US carrier operate, this was TWA who sold authority to American. In the 90's however Bermuda 2 was amended many times which allowed United to start Chicago, American also gained Philadelphia, Nashville and Raleigh Durham.

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Pottok
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:27 am

Hello,


United Airlines took at this time the Pam Am trafic rigths from Paris to California. Pan Am never used it. They received the rights for California in 1986 but due to terrorist attacks in 1986 in France, it never oppened the Paris - San Francisco.

United Airlines received the right of two daily flights in spring/summer and one daily flight in autumn/winter. Since the beginning of 1992 it started to served Los Angeles and San Francisco from Paris.
 
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:55 am

vegasplanes wrote:
DL took over the route from Pan Am in 1991 - CLE-DTW-LGW with a A310 - switched soon after to a L1011, the route was distinctive in that the flight would park at the Berry terminal whereas DL departed from the Smith terminal C concourse.


The flight only parked at the Berry terminal on the LGW-DTW-CLE leg. There was no local traffic on the DTW-CLE leg as CLE pax cleared customs in CLE. The return leg did park at the Smith for the DTW stop. NW used to have an agent sitting at the gate with a clicker to count pax as they boarded. They kept trying to make the case to the DOT to take the route from DL and give it to NW. The CLE tag didn't last that long, and DL did eventually sell the right to NW.
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Cointrin330
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:04 pm

N649DL wrote:
I don't think PA ever operated EWR-LHR but somehow UA got the rights to operate it when the routes were sold off during their liquidation. It was also around the same time when UA announced EWR-NRT which lasted until 1995-1996 as a non-stop. That said, UA's EWR-LHR was the among the first 777 routes ever operated (even ahead of JFK) around 1996. Before that, EWR-LHR on UA was mostly on 747SP or 747-200.

UA's MIA and SEA to LHR service was definitely short-lived IIRC. Legacy UA's EWR-LHR lasted through 2004.


No, Pan Am never operated scheduled EWR-Europe or EWR-LHR. All of the LHR services Pan Am operated out of the NY Area were from JFK (9am, 7pm, 9pm). The UA EWR-LHR route (UA 906/907) was the first 777 service in the New York Area, not the first UA 777 service to operate. UA launched the 777 in June 1995 from LHR to IAD. The EWR service on UA operated as DEN-EWR-LHR-EWR-DEN when the 777 took over, it also operated between EWR and DEN. UA did operate EWR-NRT until 1996 and it also flew EWR-LAX and EWR-SFO alongside the JFK to LAX/SFO services, but was not serviced on 3 class aircraft like JFK, which was on the 767-200 until 2004, when things began to transition to "ps" Premium Service on the 757. UA had a decent operation at EWR in the 1990s, including service to MIA to feed the Latin America services it operated from there at that time. UA also had a maintenance hangar and operated out of a full banjo at Terminal A.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:05 pm

Pottok wrote:
Hello,


United Airlines took at this time the Pam Am trafic rigths from Paris to California. Pan Am never used it. They received the rights for California in 1986 but due to terrorist attacks in 1986 in France, it never oppened the Paris - San Francisco.

United Airlines received the right of two daily flights in spring/summer and one daily flight in autumn/winter. Since the beginning of 1992 it started to served Los Angeles and San Francisco from Paris.


That's right. UA in 1992/1993 flew SFO/LAX/ORD/IAD to CDG.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:10 pm

amc737 wrote:
In 1990 Pan Am had settled into roughly operating up to 9 transatlantic flights per day from Heathrow, 3 daily New York JFK, and 1 daily to Washington IAD, Miami, Detroit, Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles. This was the peak summer schedule, in the winter there where reductions and the west coast routes combined on some days. The Gulf War and recession hit and Pan Am agreed to sell its Heathrow operation to United, this came into effect on 4 April 1991 however the Detroit service was suspended in February 1991, the last day Pan Am operated Detroit to Heathrow was 9 February 1991.

United also temporarily took over Miami to Heathrow, the first arrival was also 4 April 1991. United operated MIA-LHR until 17 May 1991 as UA950, the last arrival was on 18 May 1991. Pan Am re-started Miami London on 18 May 1991 with the first arrival into Gatwick on 19 May 1991. In August 1991 United flew Heathrow to JFK 3 daily, 2 daily to Washington and 1 daily to Newark, San Francisco, Los Angeles and 5 weekly to Seattle. All 747 apart from 1 IAD and 1 JFK which where 767s.

The issue was not just slots it was Bermuda II, United had plenty of slots and it flew intra-Europe in addition to the above. Only a few US cities could have 2 carriers from each country operating, Boston, New York, Miami and Los Angeles. Chicago could only have 1 US carrier operate, this was TWA who sold authority to American. In the 90's however Bermuda 2 was amended many times which allowed United to start Chicago, American also gained Philadelphia, Nashville and Raleigh Durham.

amc737


Bermuda II governed LHR access and specific US cities that could be flown to it/from it, It did not govern LGW access. American Airlines' service to RDU and BNA operated from LGW, not LHR, and had nothing to do with Bermuda II other than the fact that neither city could be served from LHR at the time. Same went for DFW. BNA was scrapped, RDU and DFW on AA metal moved to LHR in 2008. American Airlines briefly operated PHL to LHR with a single 767-300ER in the mid-1990s, well after it launched LHR services. PHL was designated LHR city and was also served by BA.
 
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:17 pm

Interesting thread. Now when will the Big 3 be forced to start selling assets like these to competitors in order to repay their debt. If the subsidization of the Airlines occurred back then, Pan Am and TWA would still have all of their Crown Jewels and United, American, and Delta would still be mostly Domestic Airlines.
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Cointrin330
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:33 pm

SWADawg wrote:
Interesting thread. Now when will the Big 3 be forced to start selling assets like these to competitors in order to repay their debt. If the subsidization of the Airlines occurred back then, Pan Am and TWA would still have all of their Crown Jewels and United, American, and Delta would still be mostly Domestic Airlines.


It's a little different now. TWA and Pan Am's financial difficulties were not caused by the same issues in the 1980s. What destroyed TWA was Carl Icahn, who had intended to sell of parts of the airline and under-invested in technology, operations, the fleet, and other core-assets for a long time. Pan Am's problems stemmed from a weak to almost non-existent domestic route network and Pan Am 103 which only helped accelerate the end for Pan Am. Throw in completely incompetent management (selling off LHR, TATL, and eventually thinking Pan Am could exist as a Miami-based carrier focused on Latin America made no sense). Both PA and TW were also getting squeezed by UA, DL, and AA, all of whom ventured into the TATL market, the bread and butter of TW/PA with smaller, more efficient planes for the most part, and the perception of better service even if that probably wasn't the case.

The other key difference now is that there's really no one for the US3 to sell key assets to. Who would buy them? The global airline industry is in a tailspin. By 1990, all three of the current US3 were flying to Europe and UA had become the #1 US airline to Asia almost overnight with the 1986 acquisition of Pan Am's TPAC network which was larger and better aligned than NW's.
 
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:34 pm

SWADawg wrote:
Interesting thread. Now when will the Big 3 be forced to start selling assets like these to competitors in order to repay their debt. If the subsidization of the Airlines occurred back then, Pan Am and TWA would still have all of their Crown Jewels and United, American, and Delta would still be mostly Domestic Airlines.



Totally different finance world now in US:

-Bankruptcy car washes

-Too big to fail
 
amc737
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:15 pm

Bermuda II very much affected Gatwick, Bermuda II was the over arching UK-USA air transport agreement and while it limited Heathrow access to 2 US carriers it had other effects, airlines couldn't just fly whatever routes they liked from Gatwick to the USA. Only a certain number of US destinations could be flown from the UK although this list grew, it meant lots of destinations couldn't be flown until after Open Skies in 2008, Delta tried for years to add Salt Lake City but it was not on the list of destinations. I also remember that Virgin started Las Vegas in 2000 as this replaced Pittsburgh on the list when BA pulled out, Pittsburgh didn't get its London flight back until 2004.

As I said further more if an airline flew a route unless it was city that could have 2 US carriers, it didn't matter whether that airline was at Heathrow or Gatwick even if it was a Heathrow destination. Philadelphia was a Heathrow route but it was allowed 1 US carrier, this was TWA, who tried to sell the route to American but was barred by the DOT, after transferring the route to Gatwick it got sold to US Air. American could not start Heathrow as the US Air had the route authority until the agreement was changed. This is why Pan Am and TWA's route network never really grew from Heathrow as routes where awarded to other carriers at Gatwick, the obvious example being Boston, TWA and Northwest had the US rights so even though it as a Heathrow city Pan Am could not enter the market.

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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 7:26 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
In October 1990, Pan Am agreed to sell its US-Heathrow routes to United Airlines for $400 million dollars. The sale included the right to fly between New York/JFK, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Washington DC, and London Heathrow Airport. It did not include Pan Am's route authority to Heathrow from Detroit and Miami. The DTW-LHR route was shifted to LGW by Pan Am for a few months (for a few days after United began operations at LHR, Pan Am still operated the DTW route before moving it to LGW). The transaction also included Pan Am's route authority between Washington DC (Dulles) and Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport, two Boeing 747-200s operated by Pan Am, and all of Pan Am's facilities at IAD, SFO, and LHR.

Curious if anyone knows how UA initially fleeted the new flights once they began operations. In 1990-91, United had just begun to receive the 747-400 (3 delivered in 1989, 5 in 1990, and 4 in 1991), the bulk of the 747 fleet that existed at the time (100s, 200s, and the SPs) were primarily flying TPAC and Hawaii, though UA launched Europe in 1990 (CDG, FRA) and I believe some of those flights were operated with the 747.

I am curious to know what UA operated once it began Pan Am's routes from JFK, LAX, SFO, SEA, and IAD to LHR and IAD to CDG.

As I recall, by the mid-1990s, JFK had settled around 3 x daily 767-300ERs, as had Seattle, which was dropped by 1996. The 777 was introduced on the LHR-IAD route in June 1995. What did UA operate though in the first years of servicing the LHR routes, and how did it get an EWR-LHR route, which Pan Am did not operate. I remember the EWR route operated with the 747SP for a time, before becoming the first NY area service to Europe on the 777.

Thanks.


One thing for sure, the transaction involved a lot of flying transferred from PA to UA, plenty of slots, only two airplanes, and very few employees.
With Pacific gone a few years prior, and now Heathrow gone, too, PA was left with plenty of capacity, a lot of staff, still weak domestic network, and less places to fly internationally.

Pan Am people were using a bit of black humor, when saying that their airline was like "a coyote, with leg caught in a trap. It tries to chew off its leg to break free. It has already chewn off three legs, but still has a leg stuck in a trap..."
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N649DL
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:27 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I don't think PA ever operated EWR-LHR but somehow UA got the rights to operate it when the routes were sold off during their liquidation. It was also around the same time when UA announced EWR-NRT which lasted until 1995-1996 as a non-stop. That said, UA's EWR-LHR was the among the first 777 routes ever operated (even ahead of JFK) around 1996. Before that, EWR-LHR on UA was mostly on 747SP or 747-200.

UA's MIA and SEA to LHR service was definitely short-lived IIRC. Legacy UA's EWR-LHR lasted through 2004.


No, Pan Am never operated scheduled EWR-Europe or EWR-LHR. All of the LHR services Pan Am operated out of the NY Area were from JFK (9am, 7pm, 9pm). The UA EWR-LHR route (UA 906/907) was the first 777 service in the New York Area, not the first UA 777 service to operate. UA launched the 777 in June 1995 from LHR to IAD. The EWR service on UA operated as DEN-EWR-LHR-EWR-DEN when the 777 took over, it also operated between EWR and DEN. UA did operate EWR-NRT until 1996 and it also flew EWR-LAX and EWR-SFO alongside the JFK to LAX/SFO services, but was not serviced on 3 class aircraft like JFK, which was on the 767-200 until 2004, when things began to transition to "ps" Premium Service on the 757. UA had a decent operation at EWR in the 1990s, including service to MIA to feed the Latin America services it operated from there at that time. UA also had a maintenance hangar and operated out of a full banjo at Terminal A.


Yup, I recall. I remember flying with United for the first time out of EWR in 2000 in 7th grade and was shocked at the operation they had in A-1. I had no idea they took up the whole wing. Back then UA even had EWR featured as a terminal diagram in Hemispheres Magazine too.

I meant to say amongst the first 777 routes for UA on EWR to LHR. For years the route originated in Denver but also at one point originated in Chicago for a bit as a through flight in the late 1990s.

UA definitely flew 3-Class 767 on EWR to SFO as late as 1999. Departed Flights has one down in August 1999. While never as important as JFK, they did fly EWR-SFO/LAX on various aircraft 5-6x daily as well. UA also briefly served EWR to SEA and SAN circa 1997 as part of a build up campaign to go head-to-head against Continental. At the time, CO was having striking and picketing issues at EWR (found yesterday via newspapers.com) and UA was looking to swoop in.

Bigger Question: How did UA take Pan Am’s route authority to EWR from LHR when PA never operated the route to begin with?
 
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:42 pm

N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
I don't think PA ever operated EWR-LHR but somehow UA got the rights to operate it when the routes were sold off during their liquidation. It was also around the same time when UA announced EWR-NRT which lasted until 1995-1996 as a non-stop. That said, UA's EWR-LHR was the among the first 777 routes ever operated (even ahead of JFK) around 1996. Before that, EWR-LHR on UA was mostly on 747SP or 747-200.

UA's MIA and SEA to LHR service was definitely short-lived IIRC. Legacy UA's EWR-LHR lasted through 2004.


No, Pan Am never operated scheduled EWR-Europe or EWR-LHR. All of the LHR services Pan Am operated out of the NY Area were from JFK (9am, 7pm, 9pm). The UA EWR-LHR route (UA 906/907) was the first 777 service in the New York Area, not the first UA 777 service to operate. UA launched the 777 in June 1995 from LHR to IAD. The EWR service on UA operated as DEN-EWR-LHR-EWR-DEN when the 777 took over, it also operated between EWR and DEN. UA did operate EWR-NRT until 1996 and it also flew EWR-LAX and EWR-SFO alongside the JFK to LAX/SFO services, but was not serviced on 3 class aircraft like JFK, which was on the 767-200 until 2004, when things began to transition to "ps" Premium Service on the 757. UA had a decent operation at EWR in the 1990s, including service to MIA to feed the Latin America services it operated from there at that time. UA also had a maintenance hangar and operated out of a full banjo at Terminal A.


Yup, I recall. I remember flying with United for the first time out of EWR in 2000 in 7th grade and was shocked at the operation they had in A-1. I had no idea they took up the whole wing. Back then UA even had EWR featured as a terminal diagram in Hemispheres Magazine too.

I meant to say amongst the first 777 routes for UA on EWR to LHR. For years the route originated in Denver but also at one point originated in Chicago for a bit as a through flight in the late 1990s.

UA definitely flew 3-Class 767 on EWR to SFO as late as 1999. Departed Flights has one down in August 1999. While never as important as JFK, they did fly EWR-SFO/LAX on various aircraft 5-6x daily as well. UA also briefly served EWR to SEA and SAN circa 1997 as part of a build up campaign to go head-to-head against Continental. At the time, CO was having striking and picketing issues at EWR (found yesterday via newspapers.com) and UA was looking to swoop in.

Bigger Question: How did UA take Pan Am’s route authority to EWR from LHR when PA never operated the route to begin with?


EWR was actually a larger station for UA than JFK was for many, many years. At one point UA had operations in A1 and A2 before trading the A2 gates with CO in exchange for some of COs LAX gates in T6. That's why UA had service from EWR-LHR and NRT in addition to serving those cities from JFK. The NYC market is just that big and even back then not everyone found JFK (or EWR for that matter) as the most convenient starting off point. Most bilateral agreements treat JFK and EWR as the same market. Moving or adding a flight is fairly straight forward.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:51 pm

United1 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

No, Pan Am never operated scheduled EWR-Europe or EWR-LHR. All of the LHR services Pan Am operated out of the NY Area were from JFK (9am, 7pm, 9pm). The UA EWR-LHR route (UA 906/907) was the first 777 service in the New York Area, not the first UA 777 service to operate. UA launched the 777 in June 1995 from LHR to IAD. The EWR service on UA operated as DEN-EWR-LHR-EWR-DEN when the 777 took over, it also operated between EWR and DEN. UA did operate EWR-NRT until 1996 and it also flew EWR-LAX and EWR-SFO alongside the JFK to LAX/SFO services, but was not serviced on 3 class aircraft like JFK, which was on the 767-200 until 2004, when things began to transition to "ps" Premium Service on the 757. UA had a decent operation at EWR in the 1990s, including service to MIA to feed the Latin America services it operated from there at that time. UA also had a maintenance hangar and operated out of a full banjo at Terminal A.


Yup, I recall. I remember flying with United for the first time out of EWR in 2000 in 7th grade and was shocked at the operation they had in A-1. I had no idea they took up the whole wing. Back then UA even had EWR featured as a terminal diagram in Hemispheres Magazine too.

I meant to say amongst the first 777 routes for UA on EWR to LHR. For years the route originated in Denver but also at one point originated in Chicago for a bit as a through flight in the late 1990s.

UA definitely flew 3-Class 767 on EWR to SFO as late as 1999. Departed Flights has one down in August 1999. While never as important as JFK, they did fly EWR-SFO/LAX on various aircraft 5-6x daily as well. UA also briefly served EWR to SEA and SAN circa 1997 as part of a build up campaign to go head-to-head against Continental. At the time, CO was having striking and picketing issues at EWR (found yesterday via newspapers.com) and UA was looking to swoop in.

Bigger Question: How did UA take Pan Am’s route authority to EWR from LHR when PA never operated the route to begin with?


EWR was actually a larger station for UA than JFK was for many, many years. At one point UA had operations in A1 and A2 before trading the A2 gates with CO in exchange for some of COs LAX gates in T6. That's why UA had service from EWR-LHR and NRT in addition to serving those cities from JFK. The NYC market is just that big and even back then not everyone found JFK (or EWR for that matter) as the most convenient starting off point. Most bilateral agreements treat JFK and EWR as the same market. Moving or adding a flight is fairly straight forward.


I am not sure about the size of the UA footprint at JFK vs. EWR at the time. Both were decent (would not surprise if EWR was a little larger, for a few reasons. I seem to recall UA was the #2 airline at EWR behind CO for much of the 1990s. At JFK, UA had at its peak, NRT (1 742 > 744 > 772) LHR (3 x daily 767-300ER), EZE (1 daily 763), GRU (1 x daily 763) , LAX (6 daily 762), SFO (7 daily 762), SEA (1 daily alternating between an A320 and a 757). HKG was operated from May to September 2001 and flown with a 747-400. There were also United Express flights to IAD and weekly services for a short time to ORD and SJU. They even flew once a week to CCS. The LAX and SFO flights moved from T7 to T6, everything else was at T7. JFK was a crew base and United Cargo also had a hangar there too. EWR had NRT, LHR, LAX, SFO, MIA, DEN, ORD, IAD, a maintenance hangar and some other assets. The NYC market may be seen as co-terminal (which is why AA ended up launching 3 x daily LHR and 1 x daily EWR to LHR in 1991), but LHR is not and moving and adding flights to/from LHR even back in the 1990s was not a straight forward or simple thing. UA had to have gotten a slot, even back then to operate a flight and it only inherited 3 x daily from JFK when it bought the Pan Am LHR assets.
 
United1
Posts: 4164
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:54 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
United1 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Yup, I recall. I remember flying with United for the first time out of EWR in 2000 in 7th grade and was shocked at the operation they had in A-1. I had no idea they took up the whole wing. Back then UA even had EWR featured as a terminal diagram in Hemispheres Magazine too.

I meant to say amongst the first 777 routes for UA on EWR to LHR. For years the route originated in Denver but also at one point originated in Chicago for a bit as a through flight in the late 1990s.

UA definitely flew 3-Class 767 on EWR to SFO as late as 1999. Departed Flights has one down in August 1999. While never as important as JFK, they did fly EWR-SFO/LAX on various aircraft 5-6x daily as well. UA also briefly served EWR to SEA and SAN circa 1997 as part of a build up campaign to go head-to-head against Continental. At the time, CO was having striking and picketing issues at EWR (found yesterday via newspapers.com) and UA was looking to swoop in.

Bigger Question: How did UA take Pan Am’s route authority to EWR from LHR when PA never operated the route to begin with?


EWR was actually a larger station for UA than JFK was for many, many years. At one point UA had operations in A1 and A2 before trading the A2 gates with CO in exchange for some of COs LAX gates in T6. That's why UA had service from EWR-LHR and NRT in addition to serving those cities from JFK. The NYC market is just that big and even back then not everyone found JFK (or EWR for that matter) as the most convenient starting off point. Most bilateral agreements treat JFK and EWR as the same market. Moving or adding a flight is fairly straight forward.


I am not sure about the size of the UA footprint at JFK vs. EWR at the time. Both were decent (would not surprise if EWR was a little larger, for a few reasons. I seem to recall UA was the #2 airline at EWR behind CO for much of the 1990s. At JFK, UA had at its peak, NRT (1 742 > 744 > 772) LHR (3 x daily 767-300ER), EZE (1 daily 763), GRU (1 x daily 763) , LAX (6 daily 762), SFO (7 daily 762), SEA (1 daily alternating between an A320 and a 757). HKG was operated from May to September 2001 and flown with a 747-400. There were also United Express flights to IAD and weekly services for a short time to ORD and SJU. They even flew once a week to CCS. The LAX and SFO flights moved from T7 to T6, everything else was at T7. JFK was a crew base and United Cargo also had a hangar there too. EWR had NRT, LHR, LAX, SFO, MIA, DEN, ORD, IAD, a maintenance hangar and some other assets. The NYC market may be seen as co-terminal (which is why AA ended up launching 3 x daily LHR and 1 x daily EWR to LHR in 1991), but LHR is not and moving and adding flights to/from LHR even back in the 1990s was not a straight forward or simple thing. UA had to have gotten a slot, even back then to operate a flight and it only inherited 3 x daily from JFK when it bought the Pan Am LHR assets.


The Bermuda 2 agreement did not tie specific slots to certain cities it simply restricted which two US airlines could serve LHR, regulated which US cities could be served from London and how many airlines could serve each route. As you mentioned above AA had service from both EWR and JFK...so if AA was able to do it then so was UA. IIRC UA bought around 20 slot pairs from PA and while not all of those were timed for transatlantic service UA could (and has) shifted flights around over the years. As for where the slot came from possibly MIA, there was a 3rd daily SFO flight at one point they may have traded slots with another carrier (much like they just did with NZ.).
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
MO11
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:00 pm

N649DL wrote:

Bigger Question: How did UA take Pan Am’s route authority to EWR from LHR when PA never operated the route to begin with?



More simply - New York/Newark is a co-terminal.
 
N649DL
Posts: 966
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:32 pm

United1 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

No, Pan Am never operated scheduled EWR-Europe or EWR-LHR. All of the LHR services Pan Am operated out of the NY Area were from JFK (9am, 7pm, 9pm). The UA EWR-LHR route (UA 906/907) was the first 777 service in the New York Area, not the first UA 777 service to operate. UA launched the 777 in June 1995 from LHR to IAD. The EWR service on UA operated as DEN-EWR-LHR-EWR-DEN when the 777 took over, it also operated between EWR and DEN. UA did operate EWR-NRT until 1996 and it also flew EWR-LAX and EWR-SFO alongside the JFK to LAX/SFO services, but was not serviced on 3 class aircraft like JFK, which was on the 767-200 until 2004, when things began to transition to "ps" Premium Service on the 757. UA had a decent operation at EWR in the 1990s, including service to MIA to feed the Latin America services it operated from there at that time. UA also had a maintenance hangar and operated out of a full banjo at Terminal A.


Yup, I recall. I remember flying with United for the first time out of EWR in 2000 in 7th grade and was shocked at the operation they had in A-1. I had no idea they took up the whole wing. Back then UA even had EWR featured as a terminal diagram in Hemispheres Magazine too.

I meant to say amongst the first 777 routes for UA on EWR to LHR. For years the route originated in Denver but also at one point originated in Chicago for a bit as a through flight in the late 1990s.

UA definitely flew 3-Class 767 on EWR to SFO as late as 1999. Departed Flights has one down in August 1999. While never as important as JFK, they did fly EWR-SFO/LAX on various aircraft 5-6x daily as well. UA also briefly served EWR to SEA and SAN circa 1997 as part of a build up campaign to go head-to-head against Continental. At the time, CO was having striking and picketing issues at EWR (found yesterday via newspapers.com) and UA was looking to swoop in.

Bigger Question: How did UA take Pan Am’s route authority to EWR from LHR when PA never operated the route to begin with?


EWR was actually a larger station for UA than JFK was for many, many years. At one point UA had operations in A1 and A2 before trading the A2 gates with CO in exchange for some of COs LAX gates in T6. That's why UA had service from EWR-LHR and NRT in addition to serving those cities from JFK. The NYC market is just that big and even back then not everyone found JFK (or EWR for that matter) as the most convenient starting off point. Most bilateral agreements treat JFK and EWR as the same market. Moving or adding a flight is fairly straight forward.


IIRC, A-2 at EWR was always operated by US (before that Piedmont in the 1980s) until they sold it to CO for 737 mainline operations in the late 1990s (EG: ATL, DFW, BOS, MDW etc.) Air Canada was at A-2 for a bit as well until UA shrunk at A-1 and AC moved into UA's gates in the mid-2000s. They might have also been at A-3 for a bit when the code shared with AA in the early 1990s.

I do recall that both UA and AA had flights to LHR from EWR in the late 1990s and always pulled into Terminal B for Customs and towed back to A for departures. DL did this well into the 2010s for their AMS and CDG flights. IIRC, UA had a 777 arrive from DEN into EWR (then continued to LHR out of A) and UA had another 777 from LHR which would clear customs at B, towed to A and continue to DEN. This pattern went well into the early 2000s.

Regarding UA at EWR versus JFK in the 1990s, UA was probably bigger at EWR by capacity but more destinations were served out of JFK (including a small express operation out on UAEX in the tail end of the 1990s.) Also, UA both flew JFK and EWR to NRT in the 1990s at the same time as well. By the early 2000s, UA was down to just EWR-LHR as to anything outside the hubs (though they maintained it's base until 2006-2007 at EWR). They did retry weekend / seasonal EWR-MIA on A320 in 2002-2003 briefly as well after dropping the route in 1999.
 
vegasplanes
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:40 am

toltommy wrote:
vegasplanes wrote:
DL took over the route from Pan Am in 1991 - CLE-DTW-LGW with a A310 - switched soon after to a L1011, the route was distinctive in that the flight would park at the Berry terminal whereas DL departed from the Smith terminal C concourse.


The flight only parked at the Berry terminal on the LGW-DTW-CLE leg. There was no local traffic on the DTW-CLE leg as CLE pax cleared customs in CLE. The return leg did park at the Smith for the DTW stop. NW used to have an agent sitting at the gate with a clicker to count pax as they boarded. They kept trying to make the case to the DOT to take the route from DL and give it to NW. The CLE tag didn't last that long, and DL did eventually sell the right to NW.


Thanks!

I was unaware that the flight only parked at the Berry terminal one-way.
 
The777Man
Posts: 6120
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:59 am

EWR-LHR was the last 747SP route for UA and as was mentioned an early 777 route.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
jfk777
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:08 am

Hard to believe United has been at Heathrow for 29 years already, they started at Terminal 3, moved to Terminal 1 for years until the new Terminal 2 opened about 5 years ago.
 
TYWoolman
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:17 am

By the early 90's Pan Am and TWA were stricly competing defensively. Their teams were mismanaged and highly in debt to boot. The archrivalry between them sadly turned inward by deconstructing themselves of their crown jewels to stay afloat post deregulation 12 years later. Nobody wanted them whole. The other airlines forces their hand into selling assets. TWA sold their LHR routes to American soon after the Pan Am - United deal, case in point. Pan Am and TWA red tails forever!!
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:19 am

MO11 wrote:
N649DL wrote:

Bigger Question: How did UA take Pan Am’s route authority to EWR from LHR when PA never operated the route to begin with?



More simply - New York/Newark is a co-terminal.


Yes, but on the LHR end, a slot had to come from somewhere. PA had 3 x daily JFK-LHR all of which became UA flights. EWR was added. How?
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:25 am

TYWoolman wrote:
By the early 90's Pan Am and TWA were stricly competing defensively. Their teams were mismanaged and highly in debt to boot. The archrivalry between them sadly turned inward by deconstructing themselves of their crown jewels to stay afloat post deregulation 12 years later. Nobody wanted them whole. The other airlines forces their hand into selling assets. TWA sold their LHR routes to American soon after the Pan Am - United deal, case in point. Pan Am and TWA red tails forever!!


By the early 1990s, Pan Am was gone and TWA was entering a decade long end of life program. Both companies were indeed grossly mismanaged and never adapted to the new realities of the airline industry's economics in that decade. Pan Am never built a domestic network of any relevance to feed its remaining intercontinental flights. TWA at least had bulked up in STL from the mid-1980s onward, but was run by a corporate raider more interested in the sum of its parts than turning the carrier around and positioning it for the future. It continued to fly older and less efficient aircraft (339 seat 747s don't perform well on routes outside LHR and maybe CDG in the winter time). Technology upgrades were few and far between and TWA continued to operate well into the 1990s as a carrier stuck in 1987. Without LHR access, TWA became irrelevant to corporate contracts given the growth of US banks in London and the role of the city as a financial hub post big bang. The legacy of these two airlines is so fascinating, so rich, and so relevant even after almost 30 (Pan Am) and 20 (TWA) years after they operated their final flights.
 
amc737
Posts: 76
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:51 pm

Pan Am had at least 18 slot pairs at Heathrow, in terms of passengers Pan Am was number 2 behind British Airways. In 1990 Pan Am's peak long haul schedule was 9 daily transatlantic flights, the other 9 flights where feeder flights, including services to Germany such as Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich and they tended to have local traffic rights so could sell purely London to Frankfurt. They also operated feeders purely to connect to the transatlantic fights like Oslo, Brussels and Amsterdam (there is a youtube video of a MCO-JFK-LHR-AMS) flight. These had no local traffic rights

In August 1990 Pan Am had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow:

PA002 JFK 06:50
PA102 JFK 09:05
PA100 JFK 20:50
PA106 IAD 06:15
PA098 MIA 07:40
PA054 DTW 06:45
PA122 SEA 12:00
PA124 SFO 12:00
PA121 LAX 06:20

In August 1991 United had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow

UA900 JFK 06:50
UA902 JFK 08:45
UA904 JFK 06:40
UA906 EWR 06:50
UA918 IAD 06:25
UA920 IAD 10:15
UA932 SEA 11:40
UA930 SFO 07:40
UA934 LAX 07:10

While some United inbound's used the previous Pan Am slot PA002/UAL900 for example many did not, how some used previously used European slots Pan Am has an 11:40 arrival from Frankfurt, I suspect this slot was used by United for its Seattle arrival. It was also likely slots could be re-timed.

amc737
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:19 pm

amc737 wrote:
Pan Am had at least 18 slot pairs at Heathrow, in terms of passengers Pan Am was number 2 behind British Airways. In 1990 Pan Am's peak long haul schedule was 9 daily transatlantic flights, the other 9 flights where feeder flights, including services to Germany such as Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich and they tended to have local traffic rights so could sell purely London to Frankfurt. They also operated feeders purely to connect to the transatlantic fights like Oslo, Brussels and Amsterdam (there is a youtube video of a MCO-JFK-LHR-AMS) flight. These had no local traffic rights

In August 1990 Pan Am had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow:

PA002 JFK 06:50
PA102 JFK 09:05
PA100 JFK 20:50
PA106 IAD 06:15
PA098 MIA 07:40
PA054 DTW 06:45
PA122 SEA 12:00
PA124 SFO 12:00
PA121 LAX 06:20

In August 1991 United had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow

UA900 JFK 06:50
UA902 JFK 08:45
UA904 JFK 06:40
UA906 EWR 06:50
UA918 IAD 06:25
UA920 IAD 10:15
UA932 SEA 11:40
UA930 SFO 07:40
UA934 LAX 07:10

While some United inbound's used the previous Pan Am slot PA002/UAL900 for example many did not, how some used previously used European slots Pan Am has an 11:40 arrival from Frankfurt, I suspect this slot was used by United for its Seattle arrival. It was also likely slots could be re-timed.

amc737


One JFK frequency was a daylight service. Not sure if it began that way with UA or if it was retimed. PA had a daylight departure at 9AM and two evening departures, at 7pm and 9pm.
 
catiii
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Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:57 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
skipness1E wrote:
We had a thread on this very recently. The bit about Pan Am operating DTW from LHR after United started at LHR is wrong. Bermuda 2 meant Pan Am left one day and that was it, United began the next. 100% there was no overlap where United and Pan Am both operated out of LHR in 1991.


Got it. Thanks. I was living near CLE at the time, and the PA flight between DTW and London operated as CLE-DTW-LHR (then LGW) and was flown with an A310. Delta I think continued it very briefly when it bought the remaining TATL network from PA in 1991.


Correct. Delta continued DTW-LGW through at least 1994 on the L15, although the tag went to MCO instead of CLE by that point.
 
amc737
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:56 am

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:21 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
Pan Am had at least 18 slot pairs at Heathrow, in terms of passengers Pan Am was number 2 behind British Airways. In 1990 Pan Am's peak long haul schedule was 9 daily transatlantic flights, the other 9 flights where feeder flights, including services to Germany such as Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich and they tended to have local traffic rights so could sell purely London to Frankfurt. They also operated feeders purely to connect to the transatlantic fights like Oslo, Brussels and Amsterdam (there is a youtube video of a MCO-JFK-LHR-AMS) flight. These had no local traffic rights

In August 1990 Pan Am had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow:

PA002 JFK 06:50
PA102 JFK 09:05
PA100 JFK 20:50
PA106 IAD 06:15
PA098 MIA 07:40
PA054 DTW 06:45
PA122 SEA 12:00
PA124 SFO 12:00
PA121 LAX 06:20

In August 1991 United had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow

UA900 JFK 06:50
UA902 JFK 08:45
UA904 JFK 06:40
UA906 EWR 06:50
UA918 IAD 06:25
UA920 IAD 10:15
UA932 SEA 11:40
UA930 SFO 07:40
UA934 LAX 07:10

While some United inbound's used the previous Pan Am slot PA002/UAL900 for example many did not, how some used previously used European slots Pan Am has an 11:40 arrival from Frankfurt, I suspect this slot was used by United for its Seattle arrival. It was also likely slots could be re-timed.

amc737


One JFK frequency was a daylight service. Not sure if it began that way with UA or if it was retimed. PA had a daylight departure at 9AM and two evening departures, at 7pm and 9pm.


While Pan Am did have a daytime flight United did not operate this straight away, United started a daytime New York JFK to Heathrow on 13 September 1995, UA908 moved from a 07:10 arrival to 21:20 arrival in London, at this point United had 4 daily JFK and 1 daily EWR.

American had a daytime flight from the start of its Heathrow operations along with BA who had a regular daytime subsonic flight and 2 with Concorde from JFK.

amc737
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:14 pm

amc737 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
Pan Am had at least 18 slot pairs at Heathrow, in terms of passengers Pan Am was number 2 behind British Airways. In 1990 Pan Am's peak long haul schedule was 9 daily transatlantic flights, the other 9 flights where feeder flights, including services to Germany such as Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich and they tended to have local traffic rights so could sell purely London to Frankfurt. They also operated feeders purely to connect to the transatlantic fights like Oslo, Brussels and Amsterdam (there is a youtube video of a MCO-JFK-LHR-AMS) flight. These had no local traffic rights

In August 1990 Pan Am had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow:

PA002 JFK 06:50
PA102 JFK 09:05
PA100 JFK 20:50
PA106 IAD 06:15
PA098 MIA 07:40
PA054 DTW 06:45
PA122 SEA 12:00
PA124 SFO 12:00
PA121 LAX 06:20

In August 1991 United had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow

UA900 JFK 06:50
UA902 JFK 08:45
UA904 JFK 06:40
UA906 EWR 06:50
UA918 IAD 06:25
UA920 IAD 10:15
UA932 SEA 11:40
UA930 SFO 07:40
UA934 LAX 07:10

While some United inbound's used the previous Pan Am slot PA002/UAL900 for example many did not, how some used previously used European slots Pan Am has an 11:40 arrival from Frankfurt, I suspect this slot was used by United for its Seattle arrival. It was also likely slots could be re-timed.

amc737


One JFK frequency was a daylight service. Not sure if it began that way with UA or if it was retimed. PA had a daylight departure at 9AM and two evening departures, at 7pm and 9pm.


While Pan Am did have a daytime flight United did not operate this straight away, United started a daytime New York JFK to Heathrow on 13 September 1995, UA908 moved from a 07:10 arrival to 21:20 arrival in London, at this point United had 4 daily JFK and 1 daily EWR.

American had a daytime flight from the start of its Heathrow operations along with BA who had a regular daytime subsonic flight and 2 with Concorde from JFK.

amc737


Cool. Thanks. Yes, AA was out of the gate with a daylight flight. They ended up having 2 for a time, in the late 1990s. 8:30am and 9:30am.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7353
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:13 pm

amc737 wrote:
Pan Am had at least 18 slot pairs at Heathrow, in terms of passengers Pan Am was number 2 behind British Airways. In 1990 Pan Am's peak long haul schedule was 9 daily transatlantic flights, the other 9 flights where feeder flights, including services to Germany such as Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich and they tended to have local traffic rights so could sell purely London to Frankfurt. They also operated feeders purely to connect to the transatlantic fights like Oslo, Brussels and Amsterdam (there is a youtube video of a MCO-JFK-LHR-AMS) flight. These had no local traffic rights

In August 1990 Pan Am had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow:

PA002 JFK 06:50
PA102 JFK 09:05
PA100 JFK 20:50
PA106 IAD 06:15
PA098 MIA 07:40
PA054 DTW 06:45
PA122 SEA 12:00
PA124 SFO 12:00
PA121 LAX 06:20

In August 1991 United had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow

UA900 JFK 06:50
UA902 JFK 08:45
UA904 JFK 06:40
UA906 EWR 06:50
UA918 IAD 06:25
UA920 IAD 10:15
UA932 SEA 11:40
UA930 SFO 07:40
UA934 LAX 07:10

While some United inbound's used the previous Pan Am slot PA002/UAL900 for example many did not, how some used previously used European slots Pan Am has an 11:40 arrival from Frankfurt, I suspect this slot was used by United for its Seattle arrival. It was also likely slots could be re-timed.

amc737


The debut of AA and UA at LHR was also the debut for Virgin Atlantic which until then was an exclusively Gatwick airline. SRB raised a stink when UA wanted a blanket transfer of PA slots to UA and got the British Authorities to allow Virgin to bid for some of the PA slot times, no money involved. UA got their quantity of slots but not all the same times PA had.

United scored quite a prize with their Heathrow acquisition, it has become one of their premier international destination with nonstops from all their hubs. This asset sale was the death of PA, sadly.
 
QueenoftheSkies
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 4:48 am

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:56 pm

jfk777 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
Pan Am had at least 18 slot pairs at Heathrow, in terms of passengers Pan Am was number 2 behind British Airways. In 1990 Pan Am's peak long haul schedule was 9 daily transatlantic flights, the other 9 flights where feeder flights, including services to Germany such as Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich and they tended to have local traffic rights so could sell purely London to Frankfurt. They also operated feeders purely to connect to the transatlantic fights like Oslo, Brussels and Amsterdam (there is a youtube video of a MCO-JFK-LHR-AMS) flight. These had no local traffic rights

In August 1990 Pan Am had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow:

PA002 JFK 06:50
PA102 JFK 09:05
PA100 JFK 20:50
PA106 IAD 06:15
PA098 MIA 07:40
PA054 DTW 06:45
PA122 SEA 12:00
PA124 SFO 12:00
PA121 LAX 06:20

In August 1991 United had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow

UA900 JFK 06:50
UA902 JFK 08:45
UA904 JFK 06:40
UA906 EWR 06:50
UA918 IAD 06:25
UA920 IAD 10:15
UA932 SEA 11:40
UA930 SFO 07:40
UA934 LAX 07:10

While some United inbound's used the previous Pan Am slot PA002/UAL900 for example many did not, how some used previously used European slots Pan Am has an 11:40 arrival from Frankfurt, I suspect this slot was used by United for its Seattle arrival. It was also likely slots could be re-timed.

amc737


The debut of AA and UA at LHR was also the debut for Virgin Atlantic which until then was an exclusively Gatwick airline. SRB raised a stink when UA wanted a blanket transfer of PA slots to UA and got the British Authorities to allow Virgin to bid for some of the PA slot times, no money involved. UA got their quantity of slots but not all the same times PA had.

United scored quite a prize with their Heathrow acquisition, it has become one of their premier international destination with nonstops from all their hubs. This asset sale was the death of PA, sadly.


They cannibalized what was left of Pan Am to profit and better themselves. Same as delta did. Same as what AA did to TWA. All opportunist. Karma is a mutha F though. They’ll have theirs coming too.
 
codc10
Posts: 2869
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:01 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
They cannibalized what was left of Pan Am to profit and better themselves. Same as delta did. Same as what AA did to TWA. All opportunist. Karma is a mutha F though. They’ll have theirs coming too.


These were not distressed, below-market-value sales ... UA and DL paid handsomely for the PA "crown jewels", with which Pan Am was unable to turn a profit for the better part of the two decades leading up to them. These were some of the largest transactions of their kind in the airline industry... all told, in 2020 dollars, these deals would be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $3.5 billion.

Pan Am burned through capital at an astonishing rate in the post-deregulation era. The sad truth is there wasn't a reason, besides nostalgia, to keep it around.
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2810
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:05 am

codc10 wrote:
QueenoftheSkies wrote:
They cannibalized what was left of Pan Am to profit and better themselves. Same as delta did. Same as what AA did to TWA. All opportunist. Karma is a mutha F though. They’ll have theirs coming too.


These were not distressed transactions... UA and DL paid handsomely for these PA "crown jewels", with which Pan Am was unable to turn a profit for the better part of the two decades leading up to them. These were some of the largest transactions of their kind in the airline industry... all told, in 2020 dollars, these deals would be worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $3.5 billion.

Pan Am burned through capital at an astonishing rate in the post-deregulation era. The sad truth is there wasn't a reason, besides nostalgia, to keep it around.

We can’t forget that in 1984 as the ETOPS era had dawned, Boeing refused to sell 767ERs to Pan Am because of their finances. Boeing knew they couldn’t pay for the planes.

Airbus came in and sold them A300s and A310s and even threw in a new livery for free. The only reason PA could make the payments was the sale of the Pacific Division to UA.


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Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:07 am

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
amc737 wrote:
Pan Am had at least 18 slot pairs at Heathrow, in terms of passengers Pan Am was number 2 behind British Airways. In 1990 Pan Am's peak long haul schedule was 9 daily transatlantic flights, the other 9 flights where feeder flights, including services to Germany such as Frankfurt, Hamburg and Munich and they tended to have local traffic rights so could sell purely London to Frankfurt. They also operated feeders purely to connect to the transatlantic fights like Oslo, Brussels and Amsterdam (there is a youtube video of a MCO-JFK-LHR-AMS) flight. These had no local traffic rights

In August 1990 Pan Am had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow:

PA002 JFK 06:50
PA102 JFK 09:05
PA100 JFK 20:50
PA106 IAD 06:15
PA098 MIA 07:40
PA054 DTW 06:45
PA122 SEA 12:00
PA124 SFO 12:00
PA121 LAX 06:20

In August 1991 United had the following trans-Atlantic inbound to Heathrow

UA900 JFK 06:50
UA902 JFK 08:45
UA904 JFK 06:40
UA906 EWR 06:50
UA918 IAD 06:25
UA920 IAD 10:15
UA932 SEA 11:40
UA930 SFO 07:40
UA934 LAX 07:10

While some United inbound's used the previous Pan Am slot PA002/UAL900 for example many did not, how some used previously used European slots Pan Am has an 11:40 arrival from Frankfurt, I suspect this slot was used by United for its Seattle arrival. It was also likely slots could be re-timed.

amc737


The debut of AA and UA at LHR was also the debut for Virgin Atlantic which until then was an exclusively Gatwick airline. SRB raised a stink when UA wanted a blanket transfer of PA slots to UA and got the British Authorities to allow Virgin to bid for some of the PA slot times, no money involved. UA got their quantity of slots but not all the same times PA had.

United scored quite a prize with their Heathrow acquisition, it has become one of their premier international destination with nonstops from all their hubs. This asset sale was the death of PA, sadly.



They cannibalized what was left of Pan Am to profit and better themselves. Same as delta did. Same as what AA did to TWA. All opportunist. Karma is a mutha F though. They’ll have theirs coming too.


Who's "they"? I for sure lament the end of Pan Am and TWA. Both were pioneers in different ways and the flag carriers for the US in their heyday in different ways. They are sorely missed and one of the reasons why these topics pop up periodically, but it was the way both carriers were managed where the blame should be placed for their ultimate demise. Neither UA or AA (or DL) destroyed either TWA or Pan Am. It was their management teams, notably in the 1980s that did so much collateral damage to these two airlines. Pan Am entered the 1980s and the post deregulation era unprepared for what was about to happen to the industry and it failed to adapt. It spent a fortune on National Airlines, which did nothing to reshape Pan Am's route map, which apart from a rich intercontinental network, was weak in the US. Pan Am was slow to reshape its fleet, and continued to rely on the 747, which was increasingly hard to fill and fly at a profit outside of the summer months on TATL routes. It sold the TPAC network to UA to raise cash and stave off a bankruptcy filing. The sale of the LHR routes (and Flight 103 two years prior) was the end of Pan Am. The idea that PA could live on as a carrier solely focused on Latin America, in 1990, flying out of Miami exclusively, was not going to work and it didn't. AA had acquired EA's Latin America network and Miami assets and PA would never have survived what AA built in Miami as quickly as it did. TWA was mismanaged, underinvested, and poorly run from the mid-1980s onward. Carl Icahn destroyed the airline and what he couldn't completely rip off, his successors did. The company had high fixed costs, an old fleet, a dated product, and once it sold the LHR routes, it's corporate business shrank rapidly. AA bought TWA in 2001 to wipe out a weak competitor, something it has done a number of times before (Reno Air, Air Cal), I would agree the TWA employees got the short end of the stick, but what AA really wanted was a hub (STL) to shift traffic away from ORD. It had no interest in TWA's core assets at JFK, which had dwindled to around 30 flights a day. The timing of the AA acquisition of TWA was unfortunate. 9/11 is what accelerated the AA disposal of much of TWA's assets.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8048
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:31 am

FWAERJ wrote:
We can’t forget that in 1984 as the ETOPS era had dawned, Boeing refused to sell 767ERs to Pan Am because of their finances. Boeing knew they couldn’t pay for the planes.

Airbus came in and sold them A300s and A310s and even threw in a new livery for free. The only reason PA could make the payments was the sale of the Pacific Division to UA.


'Refused to sell' is an odd choice of phrase in this context. Boeing will sell to any carrier (outside of sanctions) with money. What you mean is 'Boeing wasn't dumb enough to finance.' Pan Am could have sought bank loans, bond sales, or lease financing. What they got was an Airbus bottom-feeding deal.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:46 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
FWAERJ wrote:
We can’t forget that in 1984 as the ETOPS era had dawned, Boeing refused to sell 767ERs to Pan Am because of their finances. Boeing knew they couldn’t pay for the planes.

Airbus came in and sold them A300s and A310s and even threw in a new livery for free. The only reason PA could make the payments was the sale of the Pacific Division to UA.


'Refused to sell' is an odd choice of phrase in this context. Boeing will sell to any carrier (outside of sanctions) with money. What you mean is 'Boeing wasn't dumb enough to finance.' Pan Am could have sought bank loans, bond sales, or lease financing. What they got was an Airbus bottom-feeding deal.


True. Airbus was desperate to secure another major sale to a US carrier for a wide body jet. The only other taker was EA, with the A300-RB4s earlier. Boeing was smart enough then not to accept terms that would have cost them a pretty penny. The next big US order for Airbus jets would not happen until the late 1980s with NW (also a carrier experiencing financial difficulties then, though not on the scale as PA) and then in 1992, with UA, which ordered the A319 and the A320 because Boeing did not have a 737 with range suitable for UA's needs then.
 
vegasplanes
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:22 pm

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:15 am

Cointrin330 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
FWAERJ wrote:
We can’t forget that in 1984 as the ETOPS era had dawned, Boeing refused to sell 767ERs to Pan Am because of their finances. Boeing knew they couldn’t pay for the planes.

Airbus came in and sold them A300s and A310s and even threw in a new livery for free. The only reason PA could make the payments was the sale of the Pacific Division to UA.


'Refused to sell' is an odd choice of phrase in this context. Boeing will sell to any carrier (outside of sanctions) with money. What you mean is 'Boeing wasn't dumb enough to finance.' Pan Am could have sought bank loans, bond sales, or lease financing. What they got was an Airbus bottom-feeding deal.


True. Airbus was desperate to secure another major sale to a US carrier for a wide body jet. The only other taker was EA, with the A300-RB4s earlier. Boeing was smart enough then not to accept terms that would have cost them a pretty penny. The next big US order for Airbus jets would not happen until the late 1980s with NW (also a carrier experiencing financial difficulties then, though not on the scale as PA) and then in 1992, with UA, which ordered the A319 and the A320 because Boeing did not have a 737 with range suitable for UA's needs then.


Airbus scored a sale to AA of 35 A300-600s in the mid-late '80s. Deliveries began in late '88/early '89 if I recall.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7353
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:04 am

After the PA sale Airbus did score several significant sales with financially healthy US airlines. Northwest ordered a huge amount of A320 and AA purchased their first 25 A300-600R planes. Usair would place order a huge amount of A320 in the early 1990's. United would place an A320 order causing Boeing to update the 737 creating the 737NG series. By that time Airbus had arrived in North America.
 
Cointrin330
Topic Author
Posts: 1993
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Tue Aug 11, 2020 11:59 am

vegasplanes wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

'Refused to sell' is an odd choice of phrase in this context. Boeing will sell to any carrier (outside of sanctions) with money. What you mean is 'Boeing wasn't dumb enough to finance.' Pan Am could have sought bank loans, bond sales, or lease financing. What they got was an Airbus bottom-feeding deal.


True. Airbus was desperate to secure another major sale to a US carrier for a wide body jet. The only other taker was EA, with the A300-RB4s earlier. Boeing was smart enough then not to accept terms that would have cost them a pretty penny. The next big US order for Airbus jets would not happen until the late 1980s with NW (also a carrier experiencing financial difficulties then, though not on the scale as PA) and then in 1992, with UA, which ordered the A319 and the A320 because Boeing did not have a 737 with range suitable for UA's needs then.


Airbus scored a sale to AA of 35 A300-600s in the mid-late '80s. Deliveries began in late '88/early '89 if I recall.


That's true yes. They were ordered and used primarily for Caribbean and northern Latin America operations, and focused around JFK and MIA. Believe the last one was gone by 2009 and for a few years, they were operated on some JFK-LHR, BOS-LHR, and maybe BOS-CDG in the late 1990s. The 777s were ordered in 1996 and began arriving in 1999 and AA did not have enough 767s to cover all the long haul flying it needed so some AB6s were temporarily assigned to East Coast-Europe.
 
jfk777
Posts: 7353
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: UA Acquisition of Pan Am's LHR Slots - Operations

Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:37 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
vegasplanes wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:

True. Airbus was desperate to secure another major sale to a US carrier for a wide body jet. The only other taker was EA, with the A300-RB4s earlier. Boeing was smart enough then not to accept terms that would have cost them a pretty penny. The next big US order for Airbus jets would not happen until the late 1980s with NW (also a carrier experiencing financial difficulties then, though not on the scale as PA) and then in 1992, with UA, which ordered the A319 and the A320 because Boeing did not have a 737 with range suitable for UA's needs then.


Airbus scored a sale to AA of 35 A300-600s in the mid-late '80s. Deliveries began in late '88/early '89 if I recall.


That's true yes. They were ordered and used primarily for Caribbean and northern Latin America operations, and focused around JFK and MIA. Believe the last one was gone by 2009 and for a few years, they were operated on some JFK-LHR, BOS-LHR, and maybe BOS-CDG in the late 1990s. The 777s were ordered in 1996 and began arriving in 1999 and AA did not have enough 767s to cover all the long haul flying it needed so some AB6s were temporarily assigned to East Coast-Europe.


The A300-600 used on JFK/BOS to LHR had great configurations compared to the sardine type used in MIA for the Caribbean and Latin routes. The LHR configuration had 10 First Class seats 5 per row and very plush Business Class seats. The Miami birds had only 16 First Class domestic type seats and the rest was classic Y class. Two very different markets, one just sounds so much nicer to fly.

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