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x1234
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A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:04 pm

I just saw on FlightRadar24 that the A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today. This is at the edge of the A333 range ex-NW. Is it payload restricted or do they simply have a light load today?
 
United857
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:40 pm

It's being operated by N823NW, which is not one of the original ex-NW frames, which were N801NW-N821NW. N822NW-N831NW were the 10 units DL ordered with the GE engines delivered from 2015-2017 (the ex-NW frames have PW) and are of the 242 tonne MTOW variant. Granted, it's still a long flight even for 242t A333, but I'm sure the additional 9 tonnes of MTOW makes a significant difference on a flight of this length.
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DylanHarvey
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Sun Aug 09, 2020 5:57 pm

Coupled with a load that is probably not completely full, and the fact this is still well within the range of the aircraft. The two for 2 ton has already done 14hr flights.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:33 pm

Tangential, but this raises an interesting question:
How exactly are they blocking seats (for COVID) on a 2x4x2 configuration? I can't imagine they're doing 1x2x1, but I don't know that for fact.

Could it be that the resultant payload reduction from that alone, is sufficient to allow this variant (which as mentioned above, has a higher MTOW + activated center fuel tank, relative to older A333s) to op such a route?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
panamair
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:51 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Tangential, but this raises an interesting question:
How exactly are they blocking seats (for COVID) on a 2x4x2 configuration? I can't imagine they're doing 1x2x1, but I don't know that for fact.

Could it be that the resultant payload reduction from that alone, is sufficient to allow this variant (which as mentioned above, has a higher MTOW + activated center fuel tank, relative to older A333s) to op such a route?


The two middle seats of the center four are blocked and not selectable while the two seats on each side are not blocked for selection, if you are a lone traveler and you choose a window seat, the system automatically blocks the seat next to you, so in effect, it is 1-2-1 if there are only single travelers in the back...
 
Lootess
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:51 pm

If Delta could do over those 242t A330s they would have went PW, they were purchased not too long after the merger. I still think it was to appease GE after helping Delta in Chapter 11.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Sun Aug 09, 2020 10:39 pm

panamair wrote:
The two middle seats of the center four are blocked and not selectable while the two seats on each side are not blocked for selection, if you are a lone traveler and you choose a window seat, the system automatically blocks the seat next to you, so in effect, it is 1-2-1 if there are only single travelers in the back...

Thanks! Was wondering how that was done!


Lootess wrote:
If Delta could do over those 242t A330s they would have went PW, they were purchased not too long after the merger. I still think it was to appease GE after helping Delta in Chapter 11.

And you're getting that from ______?
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:13 pm

Lootess wrote:
If Delta could do over those 242t A330s they would have went PW, they were purchased not too long after the merger. I still think it was to appease GE after helping Delta in Chapter 11.

If I recall Delta went for GE because the fuel burn was slightly better. Also Pratt screwed them on the 4075 IIRC, that was supposed to help the 200 out of Salt Lake. From what it seems like the roller has the best overall performance on the 330, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong
 
MIflyer12
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:14 pm

Lootess wrote:
If Delta could do over those 242t A330s they would have went PW, they were purchased not too long after the merger.


Those were ordered Sept 2013 - five years after the merger.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Sun Aug 09, 2020 11:22 pm

Lootess wrote:
If Delta could do over those 242t A330s they would have went PW, they were purchased not too long after the merger. I still think it was to appease GE after helping Delta in Chapter 11.

IIRC a/c financed with GE and a deal strike with CF6 engine, plus CF6 burns better over long distance (in fact even slightly better than RR and PW is the worst of three), plus PW version did not have a 242t certified.

Michael
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:53 am

DylanHarvey wrote:
Also Pratt screwed them on the 4075

The (proposed) engine was the PW4173.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:09 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
Lootess wrote:
If Delta could do over those 242t A330s they would have went PW, they were purchased not too long after the merger. I still think it was to appease GE after helping Delta in Chapter 11.

IIRC a/c financed with GE and a deal strike with CF6 engine, plus CF6 burns better over long distance (in fact even slightly better than RR and PW is the worst of three), plus PW version did not have a 242t certified.

Michael

IIRX China Southern actually has there 242t version with PW.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:20 pm

DylanHarvey wrote:
IIRX China Southern actually has there 242t version with PW.

CZ's newest A333s are RR powered, their older ones have the PWs.

I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:36 pm

Are there some A359s down or something? N823NW seems to flying what have been A359 routes as of late. ATL-HND, HND-DTW, DTW-CDG, and CDG-ATL.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:58 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
IIRX China Southern actually has there 242t version with PW.

CZ's newest A333s are RR powered, their older ones have the PWs.


Ahh ok, yeah just checked up on that as well.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:31 pm

DylanHarvey wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
Lootess wrote:
If Delta could do over those 242t A330s they would have went PW, they were purchased not too long after the merger. I still think it was to appease GE after helping Delta in Chapter 11.

IIRC a/c financed with GE and a deal strike with CF6 engine, plus CF6 burns better over long distance (in fact even slightly better than RR and PW is the worst of three), plus PW version did not have a 242t certified.

Michael

IIRX China Southern actually has there 242t version with PW.

Not the PW ones. PW ones are 233/235t. Their new 242t ones are with RR.

Michael
 
TonyClifton
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:41 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Are there some A359s down or something? N823NW seems to flying what have been A359 routes as of late. ATL-HND, HND-DTW, DTW-CDG, and CDG-ATL.

My guess is with lighter loads, the 330 can handle it, and it’s probably cheaper to run on that sector than the 350.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:31 pm

eamondzhang wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
IIRC a/c financed with GE and a deal strike with CF6 engine, plus CF6 burns better over long distance (in fact even slightly better than RR and PW is the worst of three), plus PW version did not have a 242t certified.

Michael

IIRX China Southern actually has there 242t version with PW.

Not the PW ones. PW ones are 233/235t. Their new 242t ones are with RR.

Michael

Yeah you're right haha. I thought I remembered a CZ 333 with PW's at CDG, I was tripping.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:05 am

DylanHarvey wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
IIRX China Southern actually has there 242t version with PW.

Not the PW ones. PW ones are 233/235t. Their new 242t ones are with RR.

Michael

Yeah you're right haha. I thought I remembered a CZ 333 with PW's at CDG, I was tripping.

You must be mixing those A332s (PW engine) and A333s (new RR engine) together! :)

Michael
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 12:44 am

eamondzhang wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
Not the PW ones. PW ones are 233/235t. Their new 242t ones are with RR.

Michael

Yeah you're right haha. I thought I remembered a CZ 333 with PW's at CDG, I was tripping.

You must be mixing those A332s (PW engine) and A333s (new RR engine) together! :)

Michael

I think I actually remember reading a form on here about the 300 doing Guangzhou to Paris, of course the 242t. I didn’t pay attention to what CZ ordered on them lol. I will climb into the hole beneath me if I mix up the 200 and a 300 ;) :)
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:11 am

eamondzhang wrote:
You must be mixing those A332s (PW engine) and A333s (new RR engine) together! :)

CX also has A332 with RR

I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
ITSTours
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:17 am

With Japan restricting US-bound foreigners from entering the country, I can't see there will be a heavy load.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:17 am

LAX772LR wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
You must be mixing those A332s (PW engine) and A333s (new RR engine) together! :)

CX also has A332 with RR


Yep but they haven't flown intercontinentally for ages, and still in old cabin config with angled lie flat. Most of them are on their way out I believe so I discounted them.

DylanHarvey wrote:
eamondzhang wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Yeah you're right haha. I thought I remembered a CZ 333 with PW's at CDG, I was tripping.

You must be mixing those A332s (PW engine) and A333s (new RR engine) together! :)

Michael

I think I actually remember reading a form on here about the 300 doing Guangzhou to Paris, of course the 242t. I didn’t pay attention to what CZ ordered on them lol. I will climb into the hole beneath me if I mix up the 200 and a 300 ;) :)

LOL! Yep they indeed flew 300 for a little while before the whole virus things sets upon us.

Michael
 
ewt340
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:30 am

I don't see how the aircraft would be full of passengers. There's probably like less than 20 people on board.

They would make their money on cargo instead.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:18 am

LAX772LR wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Also Pratt screwed them on the 4075

The (proposed) engine was the PW4173.

Actually, we had PW4175 stickers at Pratt as that was the intended thrust of, IIRC 74.6k thrust. Dang nacelle contract with AA made it cost prohibitive to modify the nacelle to take the hot compressor surge vent exhaust.

There was no chance of Pratt winning this contract. I'm surprised GE won it. At that time, the T700 was the clear favorite on the the A333.

I'm a Pratt fan, but denying faults means you cannot fix anything. Pratt has great GTFs and the PW800s have a wonderful futures. The PW4170 (eventually PW4172) is a good engine, but not the best.

Long haul is brutal. The differences of a little takeoff performance or fuel burn add up.

Delta has bought enough newer Pratts that we can see companies are not emotional. Pratt offered a service contract that was good. GE and then to sell A330NEO/A350s so did RR. Looking at the past, CFM-56 contracts persuaded on narrowbodies.

The A333 has an oversized centerline fuel tank. If payload is light enough, with diversion allowance, a 6900nm still air range is enough. That could be done easily with 20t payload, probably more.

These are interesting times.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
TonyClifton
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:32 am

lightsaber wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Also Pratt screwed them on the 4075

The (proposed) engine was the PW4173.

Actually, we had PW4175 stickers at Pratt as that was the intended thrust of, IIRC 74.6k thrust. Dang nacelle contract with AA made it cost prohibitive to modify the nacelle to take the hot compressor surge vent exhaust.

There was no chance of Pratt winning this contract. I'm surprised GE won it. At that time, the T700 was the clear favorite on the the A333.

I'm a Pratt fan, but denying faults means you cannot fix anything. Pratt has great GTFs and the PW800s have a wonderful futures. The PW4170 (eventually PW4172) is a good engine, but not the best.

Long haul is brutal. The differences of a little takeoff performance or fuel burn add up.

Delta has bought enough newer Pratts that we can see companies are not emotional. Pratt offered a service contract that was good. GE and then to sell A330NEO/A350s so did RR. Looking at the past, CFM-56 contracts persuaded on narrowbodies.

The A333 has an oversized centerline fuel tank. If payload is light enough, with diversion allowance, a 6900nm still air range is enough. That could be done easily with 20t payload, probably more.

These are interesting times.

Lightsaber

Have to wonder with the subsequent 330neo and 350 orders, would the 242t models have been better with Trent 700s? I’m unsure the commonality or if it would have yielded any family commonalities and efficiencies.
 
FedexL1011
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 2:43 am

ikolkyo wrote:
Are there some A359s down or something? N823NW seems to flying what have been A359 routes as of late. ATL-HND, HND-DTW, DTW-CDG, and CDG-ATL.


Or its more cost efficient to have a 330 on the routes versus a 350. Keep in mind that they are trying to cut costs everywhere possible so why fly a larger plane that will be more empty on those routes versus one that is moderately filled and have cargo onboard.

There was one A350 that had to divert ICN-SEA to SFO but that has since been fixed so I would assume they are focusing the 350s on Cargo and heavy load routes.
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LAX772LR
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:24 am

lightsaber wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
DylanHarvey wrote:
Also Pratt screwed them on the 4075

The (proposed) engine was the PW4173.

Actually, we had PW4175 stickers at Pratt as that was the intended thrust of, IIRC 74.6k thrust.

Help me figure out the timeline here then:
It was definitely pre-marketed as 4173 circa 2000 when they canned it the first time. Then in 2012, DL was still referring to it as that and describing it in the lower thrust range, before going for GE in 2013.

When did Pratt decide to offer even more than the 72ish that they were promising then? I never knew they were even planning such.



TonyClifton wrote:
Have to wonder with the subsequent 330neo and 350 orders, would the 242t models have been better with Trent 700s? I’m unsure the commonality or if it would have yielded any family commonalities and efficiencies.

DL already operates all three manufacturers on their various A330s, so I doubt they really care all that much about commonality versus optimal fit, even disregarding the sunk costs.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:59 am

Did DL end up choosing the 68k CF6’s on the 333? I’m not sure if the 66.8k would provide great performance. There’s the E1-A4 which 66k and the E1-A4/B which has the thrust bump to 68k. Most likely a simple software change though.
 
Lootess
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:23 am

LAX772LR wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
The (proposed) engine was the PW4173.

Actually, we had PW4175 stickers at Pratt as that was the intended thrust of, IIRC 74.6k thrust.

Help me figure out the timeline here then:
It was definitely pre-marketed as 4173 circa 2000 when they canned it the first time. Then in 2012, DL was still referring to it as that and describing it in the lower thrust range, before going for GE in 2013.

When did Pratt decide to offer even more than the 72ish that they were promising then? I never knew they were even planning such.



TonyClifton wrote:
Have to wonder with the subsequent 330neo and 350 orders, would the 242t models have been better with Trent 700s? I’m unsure the commonality or if it would have yielded any family commonalities and efficiencies.

DL already operates all three manufacturers on their various A330s, so I doubt they really care all that much about commonality versus optimal fit, even disregarding the sunk costs.


Yeah what I forgot they financed the first post-merger DL A333s through GE.

All three manufacturers are really telling of different eras. Richard wanted the A330neo so bad. Airbus and RR offered, and having the MRO program made it a slam dunk.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: A333 flying DL295 ATL-HND today

Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:31 am

Lootess wrote:
All three manufacturers are really telling of different eras. Richard wanted the A330neo so bad. Airbus and RR offered

Not all that different, seeing as Richard was at the offering-airline's helm when all three A330/engine combos were ordered. ;)
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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