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jayunited
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:12 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
Lots of routes to burn lots of money on.

UA is a day late and a dollar short on a lot of this. The demand for florida surged 2 months ago. Even established carriers like B6 are back down to one daily come Sept.

My bet is a good chunk of these never fly. Unless they want to burn money. And I dont think they do

For reference, the last time UA flew LGA to Florida was when they had a Miami hublet.

The last time CO flew LGA to Florida is when they tried 2 daily to MCO with Air 21 slots.

The last non hub route UA flew out of LGA was RDU...to get back at DL for starting EWR RDU

The only consistent non hub route that CO and UA flew out of LGA over the years was a Saturday only AUA flight.


That should frame United’s potential out of LGA.


I willingly admit Florida is not a strong market for United Airlines and it is interesting to see UA take this approach to Florida, and only time will tell if this beta test pays off.

Having said that, let me say this isn't a day late or a dollar short. These routes are targeting holiday travelers and snowbirds, hence the reason they will only operate in November and December and why I believe this is a beta test. On Flying Together UA tells employees these point-to-point routes are in response to UA customers looking for more nonstop leisure flights and for ways to bypass our hubs at ORD, EWR, and IAD. There are a lot of people in the Midwest and Northeast who either own a second home in Florida or have extensive family in Florida. Will we see the same migration this year that is seen almost every year as northerns try to escape a brutal winter? I don't know but it is nice to see UA responding to projected demand and giving UA customers options instead of trying to force customers to connect at a hub if they are trying to reach Florida.

Quick side note in addition to Florida a lot of Midwesterners also own property or have family out in Arizona. Only time will tell if usual travel patterns will take place this coming holiday travel season and if UA's gamble will pay off.
Last edited by jayunited on Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tphuang
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:13 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

These routes aren't for Sep they are for Nov/Dec, anyone who knows Central/South Florida knows peak season is Winter/Spring Break, especially to RSW.

It's a pretty safe bet that since many Northerners missed Spring/Summer/ & now likely Fall Break, Florida demand should be relatively strong as long as we don't see mid-July virus levels.

Actually pretty smart on UA's part here, I'd assume DL was/is planning something similar given their history of p2p.


Keep in mind that right now UA is advertising $27 R/T fares on most routes to Florida out of EWR. There is no shortage of capacity from Northeast to Florida. Quite a few airlines will be sitting on the same strategy of dumping capacity in this market. There may be more demand here than other markets, but there is also a whole lot of capacity.


August fare sales have little to nothing to do with winter demand.

Airlines know what they are doing, they are putting capacity there because that's where demand will be: National parks get too cold for visitors, hawaii will likely still be partially closed, int'l restrictions likely will continue, + factor in traditional winter demand patterns and Florida becomes the #1 spot for airlines to put capacity.

Any vacationers will have very few other options for leisure this winter, but if demand doesn't materialize they can easily pull these routes.


They also knew what they were doing in July/August which led to the $27 R/T fares. Any airline with east coast presence will be piling on Florida capacity this winter since there is so few markets likely to have demand. UA is just trying to get a piece of that pie or else the aircraft is going to sit around empty. If they see enough bookings to cover cost of flight, they will go ahead with it. Really nothing different than what we are seeing from some of the other airline moves.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:24 pm

jayunited wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
Lots of routes to burn lots of money on.

UA is a day late and a dollar short on a lot of this. The demand for florida surged 2 months ago. Even established carriers like B6 are back down to one daily come Sept.

My bet is a good chunk of these never fly. Unless they want to burn money. And I dont think they do

For reference, the last time UA flew LGA to Florida was when they had a Miami hublet.

The last time CO flew LGA to Florida is when they tried 2 daily to MCO with Air 21 slots.

The last non hub route UA flew out of LGA was RDU...to get back at DL for starting EWR RDU

The only consistent non hub route that CO and UA flew out of LGA over the years was a Saturday only AUA flight.


That should frame United’s potential out of LGA.


I willingly admit Florida is not a strong market for United Airlines and it is interesting to see UA take this approach to Florida, and only time will tell if this beta test pays off.

Having said that, let me say this isn't a day late or a dollar short. These routes are targeting holiday travelers and snowbirds, hence the reason they will only operate in November and December and why I believe this is a beta test. On Flying Together UA tells employees these point-to-point routes are in response to UA customers looking for more nonstop leisure flights and for ways to bypass our hubs at ORD, EWR, and IAD. There are a lot of people in the Midwest and Northeast who either own a second home in Florida or have extensive family in Florida. Will we see the same migration this year that is seen almost every year as northerns try to escape a brutal winter? I don't know but it is nice to see UA responding to projected demand and giving UA customers options instead of trying to force customers to connect at a hub if they are trying to reach Florida.

Quick side note in addition to Florida a lot of Midwesterners also own property or have family out in Arizona. Only time will tell if usual travel patterns will take place this coming holiday travel season and if UA's gamble will pay off.


I think you need to go review the frequency that the airlines including United or flying to Florida right now.

and then look at the fares.

it is a very bad situation.

I hope things look better in December, but I doubt they will. Not when August has sub 50 percent loads and a widespread vaccine will occur after December...if we are lucky!
 
TomJoel
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:38 pm

FSDan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:
codc10 wrote:

UA dropped a few shorthaul TX routes when it ended Colgan SF3 flying out of IAH in 2012 or so. Some, like DRT, stuck around with ERJ service, but eventually those flights were withdrawn, too. TXK also comes to mind.


Colgan operated 3x or 4x daily ABI-IAH up until 2010 I believe, but withdrew service because of low load factors. ABI has never consistently been able to keep an airline, so I am very surprised to see UA even attempt at that market. This route should be short lived once subsidy cash is used up.


I'm pretty sure AA has been serving DFW-ABI continuously for well over a decade. I don't remember the IAH-ABI service, but I could be wrong on that.



I know AA has served that market for well over 30 years and I don't think it has ever been consistently profitable. I know AA has (had) a small maint. base there at ABI, but I want to say that base was either closed or scaled back with most heavy maint. now done at XNA. Regardless, I find it really interesting to see UA attempt intra-Texas flying considering those markets, such as ABI, are historically unprofitable.
 
codc10
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:00 pm

It's inappropriate to speculate... but everyone does it, so here goes!

A few things to keep in mind here:
- Business travel is dead for the rest of 2020, and most likely well into 2021. So, high-frequency mainline capacity in business markets isn't happening.
- There is growing support for another measure of airline relief, and it will again likely come in the form of payroll grants/support, because short-term liquidity is no longer an issue and job losses are a political liability.
- Oil will remain cheap.
- Anecdotally, the virus seems to run on an 8-10 week course in a given region where cases rapidly increase to a definable peak, and then begin a decline at a slower pace than the rise. Florida would already appear to be beyond the peak.
- International leisure is limited in the winter, and to the extent Americans are planning to travel this winter, it will likely be mainland domestic, and it's more than reasonable to anticipate that Florida will be a popular destination

These adds are relatively low-impact, as they require no new infrastructure to implement (UA already has the aircraft, crews, and gates to operate) and really only require incremental marketing spend to promote. With a potential extension of airline payroll support, it becomes even lower (actual) cost to operate. If they flop, they'll be pulled from the schedule, but see this for what it is: a minimal-risk bet to get ahead of the next demand surge, and position United to benefit from traffic flows in which it isn't a historically strong contender.

With Ankit Gupta (and PQ), United has a forward-thinking, innovative network planning team that isn't beholden to any pre-merger notions of the way United does business.
 
TXRoadMan
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:44 pm

TomJoel wrote:
FSDan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:

Colgan operated 3x or 4x daily ABI-IAH up until 2010 I believe, but withdrew service because of low load factors. ABI has never consistently been able to keep an airline, so I am very surprised to see UA even attempt at that market. This route should be short lived once subsidy cash is used up.


I'm pretty sure AA has been serving DFW-ABI continuously for well over a decade. I don't remember the IAH-ABI service, but I could be wrong on that.



I know AA has served that market for well over 30 years and I don't think it has ever been consistently profitable. I know AA has (had) a small maint. base there at ABI, but I want to say that base was either closed or scaled back with most heavy maint. now done at XNA. Regardless, I find it really interesting to see UA attempt intra-Texas flying considering those markets, such as ABI, are historically unprofitable.

Unless it was a very recent closure, the MQ base at ABI has been alive and well for quite some time. That was where all of the ERDs were reactivated with checks and new interiors. It's been a bit, but as recently as a year or two ago, the SF3s were still parked there. The earliest reference I could find to ABI in AA literature was 2001. I have no doubt that it goes back earlier than that, but the relevant Metro and/or Simmons timetables aren't available.

The original quote I wanted to reference got chopped off in my reply, but I found a COex route map from 2001 on Departed Flights from that has a good list of those 'legacy' TX XE markets. Some of the markets, either questioned or not mentioned are: ABI, ACT, and SJT. http://www.departedflights.com/COX0801.html , if you're interested. ACT was dropped in 2012, and Tyler in 2016. I didn't do any other digging to find out when the other markets were dropped.

For some reason, I was thinking that GGG and/or TXK had CO/UAex service. I couldn't find any reference to GGG, but I did find where TXK was operated as a tag from TYR in '94 on a Bro.
 
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CarlosSi
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 1:48 pm

Eagle Lake is in there :P (ELA).

Also DRO, NAP (that’s for Naples right?). BOS is obvious. TPA, CMH...
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:04 pm

The fleet changes, fleet status, and repaint status posts at the start of this thread have been updated.

There is also a post dedicated to keeping track of stored mainline aircraft.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
slider
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:08 pm

I'll admit to being perplexed by these routes. Cherry-picking point to point stuff has a place these days, I'm sure.

But when traffic is so depressed overall, and capacity, why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud. Kirby seems frenetic when he talks about his strategy for the network, because UA is doing just the opposite of what he's publicly said before.

I wish them well but this just seems so superfluous. I remember all these long-standing midwest-FL routes; there's a reason they aren't there much anymore.
 
AaronPGH
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Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:08 pm

I'm glad to see UA taking some risks and trying new P2P flying, even if it's Florida. Makes sense if the network is cut down to such bare bones...much harder to get somewhere in a timely manner via a hub these days so why not try to bypass on routes that might have the demand?
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:25 pm

TXRoadMan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:
FSDan wrote:

I'm pretty sure AA has been serving DFW-ABI continuously for well over a decade. I don't remember the IAH-ABI service, but I could be wrong on that.



I know AA has served that market for well over 30 years and I don't think it has ever been consistently profitable. I know AA has (had) a small maint. base there at ABI, but I want to say that base was either closed or scaled back with most heavy maint. now done at XNA. Regardless, I find it really interesting to see UA attempt intra-Texas flying considering those markets, such as ABI, are historically unprofitable.

Unless it was a very recent closure, the MQ base at ABI has been alive and well for quite some time. That was where all of the ERDs were reactivated with checks and new interiors. It's been a bit, but as recently as a year or two ago, the SF3s were still parked there. The earliest reference I could find to ABI in AA literature was 2001. I have no doubt that it goes back earlier than that, but the relevant Metro and/or Simmons timetables aren't available.

The original quote I wanted to reference got chopped off in my reply, but I found a COex route map from 2001 on Departed Flights from that has a good list of those 'legacy' TX XE markets. Some of the markets, either questioned or not mentioned are: ABI, ACT, and SJT. http://www.departedflights.com/COX0801.html , if you're interested. ACT was dropped in 2012, and Tyler in 2016. I didn't do any other digging to find out when the other markets were dropped.

For some reason, I was thinking that GGG and/or TXK had CO/UAex service. I couldn't find any reference to GGG, but I did find where TXK was operated as a tag from TYR in '94 on a Bro.


I sure wish UA would bring back ACT and TYR but its hard to justify in this environment.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
MIAFLLPBIFlyer
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:26 pm

Not shocked but pleased about the IND-MKE-CLE to Florida stuff. Always thought UA should leverage their brand recognition in the Midwest to do some p2p flying to the west coast of Florida. But the BOS & LGA flights especially to hyper-competitive LCC/ULCC hubs MCO and FLL shock me. Might be experimental but if UA does okay on these routes in a period with limited business travel, we might see a shift in overall strategy long-term. I like it!
 
codc10
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:33 pm

slider wrote:
I'll admit to being perplexed by these routes. Cherry-picking point to point stuff has a place these days, I'm sure.

But when traffic is so depressed overall, and capacity, why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud. Kirby seems frenetic when he talks about his strategy for the network, because UA is doing just the opposite of what he's publicly said before.

I wish them well but this just seems so superfluous. I remember all these long-standing midwest-FL routes; there's a reason they aren't there much anymore.


I'm told that most of these flights are not daily; in fact, a few are Saturday-only flights with a limited season (Nov-Jan), so we aren't talking about extensive operations. It won't be 28 flights every day, despite the language of the release.
 
TomJoel
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:43 pm

TXRoadMan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:
FSDan wrote:

I'm pretty sure AA has been serving DFW-ABI continuously for well over a decade. I don't remember the IAH-ABI service, but I could be wrong on that.



I know AA has served that market for well over 30 years and I don't think it has ever been consistently profitable. I know AA has (had) a small maint. base there at ABI, but I want to say that base was either closed or scaled back with most heavy maint. now done at XNA. Regardless, I find it really interesting to see UA attempt intra-Texas flying considering those markets, such as ABI, are historically unprofitable.

Unless it was a very recent closure, the MQ base at ABI has been alive and well for quite some time. That was where all of the ERDs were reactivated with checks and new interiors. It's been a bit, but as recently as a year or two ago, the SF3s were still parked there. The earliest reference I could find to ABI in AA literature was 2001. I have no doubt that it goes back earlier than that, but the relevant Metro and/or Simmons timetables aren't available.

The original quote I wanted to reference got chopped off in my reply, but I found a COex route map from 2001 on Departed Flights from that has a good list of those 'legacy' TX XE markets. Some of the markets, either questioned or not mentioned are: ABI, ACT, and SJT. http://www.departedflights.com/COX0801.html , if you're interested. ACT was dropped in 2012, and Tyler in 2016. I didn't do any other digging to find out when the other markets were dropped.


For some reason, I was thinking that GGG and/or TXK had CO/UAex service. I couldn't find any reference to GGG, but I did find where TXK was operated as a tag from TYR in '94 on a Bro.



I've got an acquaintance who works at the XNA maint. base who told me that ABI was being closed as early as this year since ABI doesn't have the capacity to work the E170s. Additionally, from my understanding there's also an ongoing dispute between the city and AA over the usage of the facilities at ABI since the city owns them. This could be why UA is starting service because AA may be pulling out. Of course this is speculation. I know the last time I flew in there was in early 2019 and the maint. base looked deserted with no aircraft and hangar facilities closed up. Also, the last time I went to ABI the SF3s were in the process of being broken up and scrapped on site.
 
TXRoadMan
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:58 pm

TomJoel wrote:
I've got an acquaintance who works at the XNA maint. base who told me that ABI was being closed as early as this year since ABI doesn't have the capacity to work the E170s. Additionally, from my understanding there's also an ongoing dispute between the city and AA over the usage of the facilities at ABI since the city owns them. This could be why UA is starting service because AA may be pulling out. Of course this is speculation. I know the last time I flew in there was in early 2019 and the maint. base looked deserted with no aircraft and hangar facilities closed up. Also, the last time I went to ABI the SF3s were in the process of being broken up and scrapped on site.

Something there isn’t correct. ABI has been doing the induction of the frames transferred from CP. One was just completed in the last few days.
 
Rdh3e
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:20 pm

codc10 wrote:
slider wrote:
I'll admit to being perplexed by these routes. Cherry-picking point to point stuff has a place these days, I'm sure.

But when traffic is so depressed overall, and capacity, why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud. Kirby seems frenetic when he talks about his strategy for the network, because UA is doing just the opposite of what he's publicly said before.

I wish them well but this just seems so superfluous. I remember all these long-standing midwest-FL routes; there's a reason they aren't there much anymore.


I'm told that most of these flights are not daily; in fact, a few are Saturday-only flights with a limited season (Nov-Jan), so we aren't talking about extensive operations. It won't be 28 flights every day, despite the language of the release.

Which route is Saturday only? Can you name one?
 
AirlineFanatic
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:51 pm

Goes without saying, point to point LGA/BOS-FL routes are retaliation to B6 expansion at EWR and LAX.
Last edited by AirlineFanatic on Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
AirlineFanatic
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:52 pm

jfk777 wrote:
United, where is the love for PBI ? Your expansion involves almost every major Florida airport except MIA.



Goes without saying, point to point LGA/BOS-FL routes are retaliation to B6 expansion at EWR and LAX.
 
codc10
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:08 pm

Rdh3e wrote:
codc10 wrote:
slider wrote:
I'll admit to being perplexed by these routes. Cherry-picking point to point stuff has a place these days, I'm sure.

But when traffic is so depressed overall, and capacity, why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud. Kirby seems frenetic when he talks about his strategy for the network, because UA is doing just the opposite of what he's publicly said before.

I wish them well but this just seems so superfluous. I remember all these long-standing midwest-FL routes; there's a reason they aren't there much anymore.


I'm told that most of these flights are not daily; in fact, a few are Saturday-only flights with a limited season (Nov-Jan), so we aren't talking about extensive operations. It won't be 28 flights every day, despite the language of the release.

Which route is Saturday only? Can you name one?


They are currently in the schedule as daily, but I don’t think the expectation is for every flight to eventually operate ever day. It will be interesting to watch how the schedule evolves.
 
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jetblastdubai
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:11 pm

slider wrote:
why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud.


It might be that some of UAs hubs are in cities/locations that currently have (and might continue to have) mandatory quarantines for visitors arriving from certain states/regions. Who would want to fly from MKE through ORD and end up on a 14-day lockdown on your return from a state that is on Chicago's personal "do not allow" list? Fly n/s Florida to MKE/IND/CMH etc and head straight home or back to work.
 
N649DL
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:14 pm

tphuang wrote:
STT757 wrote:
United1 wrote:
LGA-MCO x2, LGA-TPA, LGA-FLL x2 and LGA-RSW....there are flights from BOS and CLE as well.

Looking for a link but I just got an email from UA.


So we finally answered what UA was going to do with the LGA slots they were using for LGA-CLE (5X daily).


I really don't expect these LGA routes to last very long. Like a lot of adds by other carriers, these seem to be added with the goal of capturing Florida demand that will likely come back over the winter time. Hard to see these routes do well with UA's cost level. UA just doesn't have enough pricing power at LGA.

Of course, if you are B6/AA, you will probably see this as a retaliation. Now, DL might retaliate against UA with some EWR adds also.


Man, I would love to see DL step back in and add back some EWR-Florida routes. In all likelihood I could see DL add seasonal 1x 739ER on EWR-MCO and maybe EWR-PBI (two former Song 757 routes.) EWR-FLL seems to be a dogfight nowadays that I doubt they would want to step into.
 
Nicknuzzii
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:23 pm

N649DL wrote:
tphuang wrote:
STT757 wrote:

So we finally answered what UA was going to do with the LGA slots they were using for LGA-CLE (5X daily).


I really don't expect these LGA routes to last very long. Like a lot of adds by other carriers, these seem to be added with the goal of capturing Florida demand that will likely come back over the winter time. Hard to see these routes do well with UA's cost level. UA just doesn't have enough pricing power at LGA.

Of course, if you are B6/AA, you will probably see this as a retaliation. Now, DL might retaliate against UA with some EWR adds also.


Man, I would love to see DL step back in and add back some EWR-Florida routes. In all likelihood I could see DL add seasonal 1x 739ER on EWR-MCO and maybe EWR-PBI (two former Song 757 routes.) EWR-FLL seems to be a dogfight nowadays that I doubt they would want to step into.


EWR-MIA would actually make sense with the LATAM tie up.
 
TomJoel
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Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:26 pm

TXRoadMan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:
I've got an acquaintance who works at the XNA maint. base who told me that ABI was being closed as early as this year since ABI doesn't have the capacity to work the E170s. Additionally, from my understanding there's also an ongoing dispute between the city and AA over the usage of the facilities at ABI since the city owns them. This could be why UA is starting service because AA may be pulling out. Of course this is speculation. I know the last time I flew in there was in early 2019 and the maint. base looked deserted with no aircraft and hangar facilities closed up. Also, the last time I went to ABI the SF3s were in the process of being broken up and scrapped on site.

Something there isn’t correct. ABI has been doing the induction of the frames transferred from CP. One was just completed in the last few days.


I'm not sure what's going on because I only fly to ABI for work purposes and even then I try to avoid it. I don't understand what UA is trying to accomplish by flying this route other than a cash grab.
 
drdisque
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:35 pm

jetblastdubai wrote:
slider wrote:
why wouldn't a major hub carrier amp up their hubs? Concentrate traffic and use the fortress hubs--that's why they're there for crying out loud.


It might be that some of UAs hubs are in cities/locations that currently have (and might continue to have) mandatory quarantines for visitors arriving from certain states/regions. Who would want to fly from MKE through ORD and end up on a 14-day lockdown on your return from a state that is on Chicago's personal "do not allow" list? Fly n/s Florida to MKE/IND/CMH etc and head straight home or back to work.


If you are a Wisconsin resident you are able to travel through ORD (either drive to ORD and fly or connect there) to wherever you want and are not subject to any Chicago quarantine rules. The rules are only for people who live in or are going to stay in Chicago/Cook County.
 
tphuang
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:50 pm

https://crankyflier.com/2020/08/13/unit ... ay-season/
CF's article on this with this part
"All of these routes have nonstop service from at least two other airlines. Spirit flies 14 of them, JetBlue and Southwest each serve 10, Frontier is in 9, Delta 8, and American just 1,"
Seems to me if UA is doing this as a retaliation on JetBlue, it would not be doing this on a limited time and targeting NK more.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:15 pm

tphuang wrote:
https://crankyflier.com/2020/08/13/united-tries-to-hitch-a-ride-on-the-florida-gravy-train-this-holiday-season/
CF's article on this with this part
"All of these routes have nonstop service from at least two other airlines. Spirit flies 14 of them, JetBlue and Southwest each serve 10, Frontier is in 9, Delta 8, and American just 1,"
Seems to me if UA is doing this as a retaliation on JetBlue, it would not be doing this on a limited time and targeting NK more.


No, not everything is about B6, this is UA's only chance of capturing a meaningful amount of Florida demand.

Remember IAD & IAH are terrible connectors to Florida, UA is only flying IAD-RSW 2x daily this winter on CR7s!.

Image
They are competing with a plethora of less circuitous options through massive Florida connecting hubs (ATL/CLT) from DL & AA, plus nonstop options on WN, B6, NK, F9, e.t.c.

This is the only way UA is going to be able to capture any meaningful amount of Florida traffic, which will be a large portion of demand this winter.
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
FSDan
Posts: 3340
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:27 pm

Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:31 am

TomJoel wrote:
This could be why UA is starting service because AA may be pulling out. Of course this is speculation.


I'd be surprised if AA pulled out, if for no other reason than that they've been building up their DFW hub and adding more small TX cities (e.g. DRT) recently. Also, with DFW-ABI typically seeing something like 4-6 daily flights, it wouldn't appear to have been a money-loser for AA pre-COVID (if it was, why didn't they just fly 2 or 3 dailies or pull out entirely and do maintenance work elsewhere?).
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:51 am

RSW to Pit, CMH, MKE, and IND confirmed, through a Jan 10, at least.
All but MKE are YX bases. At-risk?

https://www.news-press.com/story/money/ ... 363836001/
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:58 am

Midwestindy wrote:
drdisque wrote:
The BOS flying is going to be probably pretty rough - UA is pretty weak in that POS. If the MKE flights are struggling and priced cheap they'll end up with a lot of reverse leakage from the North Suburbs of Chicago (similar to when Ted flew from MDW). Same with the LGA flights as I understand they are flying these to help retain the slots without flying way too much ORD-LGA and LGA-IAD. If business travel hasn't recovered after this and they still have to squat on LGA slots they might have to squat with a bunch of LGA-IAD flights on 50 seaters or maybe they just retain the Florida flying through the Spring. IND-RSW on an A320 is a pretty big swag too. Odd that RSW was the station they picked from IND too, must be lack of competition.


IND-RSW is a pretty big market (#6 or 7 from RSW), especially if you combine it with PGD where IND-PGD is the largest winter market.

DL serves/served it daily in winter, plus F9/G4/NK/WN all serve the market during winter.

Ind-RSW was ATA’s bread and butter milk run. They turned it into a huge market, even filling last minute add L10’s in the 80’s.
At peak times, it wasn’t unusual to see ATA run as many as ten sone days, including 2-3 L-10’s.
 
TomJoel
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:02 pm

Re: United Adds IAH-ABI/CHA, DEN-ALS/RST/SUX

Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:52 am

FSDan wrote:
TomJoel wrote:
This could be why UA is starting service because AA may be pulling out. Of course this is speculation.


I'd be surprised if AA pulled out, if for no other reason than that they've been building up their DFW hub and adding more small TX cities (e.g. DRT) recently. Also, with DFW-ABI typically seeing something like 4-6 daily flights, it wouldn't appear to have been a money-loser for AA pre-COVID (if it was, why didn't they just fly 2 or 3 dailies or pull out entirely and do maintenance work elsewhere?).


Every time I’ve flown in there, the aircraft was not even half full. In fact, I was once the only passenger on a DFW-ABI flight, something I have never seen until then.
 
palauanguy86
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:23 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:11 am

andrew1996 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
andrew1996 wrote:



Does the SIN flight change crew in Singapore or a same day turn around from GUM? It seems like other foregin airlines operating cargo flights into Sngapore change crews in Singapore? I originally thought it is stopping in GUM to carry more cargo out of SFO direct to SIN to avoid payload restriction or is there also cargo loaded on/off in GUM or just for the crew change?


The crew change is in GUM. GUM-SIN-GUM is flown as a turn with 4 pilots.


4 pilots—makes sense cause otherwise it seems far too long of a sector to be flown by 2. Is GUM used to load/unload cargo or serve as a intra Asia cargo hub or is it purely crew change? Could UA deliver cargo from say SIN to HKG via GUM?



I work the GUM flights on the ground. Cargo coming into GUM is from the mainland (SFO/LAX) with thru cargo to SIN/TPE/HKG/PVG and we sometimes have local-boarded cargo. Going back, it's usually a full fit load. Very rarely will we have the space to load so it gets routed through HNL. Also, there's hardly any local cargo coming from Asia on the widebodies save for a few loose pieces in the bulk (and I haven't seen any intra-Asia like SIN-GUM-HKG, etc.). Also, none of the GUM trips have involved loading anything in the cabin.
 
drdisque
Posts: 1346
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:57 am

Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:55 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
RSW to Pit, CMH, MKE, and IND confirmed, through a Jan 10, at least.
All but MKE are YX bases. At-risk?

https://www.news-press.com/story/money/ ... 363836001/


It can't be YX At-risk it's all operated on UA mainline. The only UAX route announced was that CLE-TPA will be on an E-175 in late fall/early winter.
 
zelegp
Posts: 8
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:27 pm

Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:08 pm

drdisque wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
RSW to Pit, CMH, MKE, and IND confirmed, through a Jan 10, at least.
All but MKE are YX bases. At-risk?

https://www.news-press.com/story/money/ ... 363836001/


It can't be YX At-risk it's all operated on UA mainline. The only UAX route announced was that CLE-TPA will be on an E-175 in late fall/early winter.


CLE-TPA is only UAX for the first month and then switches to mainline when PIT, MKE, IND, CMH begin. CMH and PIT are on E-175’s, not mainline.
 
FlyHossD
Posts: 2100
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:45 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:16 am

palauanguy86 wrote:
andrew1996 wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:

The crew change is in GUM. GUM-SIN-GUM is flown as a turn with 4 pilots.


4 pilots—makes sense cause otherwise it seems far too long of a sector to be flown by 2. Is GUM used to load/unload cargo or serve as a intra Asia cargo hub or is it purely crew change? Could UA deliver cargo from say SIN to HKG via GUM?



I work the GUM flights on the ground. Cargo coming into GUM is from the mainland (SFO/LAX) with thru cargo to SIN/TPE/HKG/PVG and we sometimes have local-boarded cargo. Going back, it's usually a full fit load. Very rarely will we have the space to load so it gets routed through HNL. Also, there's hardly any local cargo coming from Asia on the widebodies save for a few loose pieces in the bulk (and I haven't seen any intra-Asia like SIN-GUM-HKG, etc.). Also, none of the GUM trips have involved loading anything in the cabin.


Thanks - always good to have word from the inside.

I've also been told that a few cargo flights are still cycling through NRT. So the crew rests in Tokyo, then flies NRT-HKG-GUM for another rest before heading back to the mainland and that this sequence is also flown in reverse order.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:18 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Thanks - always good to have word from the inside.

I've also been told that a few cargo flights are still cycling through NRT. So the crew rests in Tokyo, then flies NRT-HKG-GUM for another rest before heading back to the mainland and that this sequence is also flown in reverse order.


No you are confusing and intermixing the two layover points.
For example ORD-PVG cargo flight will fly this route ORD-NRT (change crews) NRT-PVG-NRT (change crews) NRT-ORD.
Another example LAX-TPE cargo flight will fly this route LAX-GUM (change crews) GUM-TPE-GUM (change crews) GUM-LAX.
There are no NRT-HKG-GUM routings, although I can understand why you would think it's possible.

When a cargo flight leaves the US heading for Asia and a nonstop is not possible do to COVID restrictions (i.e. ORD-HKG-ORD) then there will be a stop over point either at NRT or GUM. The crew that picks up the flight at the stop over point flies the roundtrip i.e. NRT-XXX-NRT only or GUM-XXX-GUM only. Also not all intra-Asia cargo flights are operated with a 4 person crew. Take for instance NRT-PVG-NRT that roundtrip on many occasions is flown with just 2 pilots. UA's ground crews at both NRT and PVG are so efficient 2 pilots can operate this turn without running out of duty time. NRT-PEK-NRT and GUM-TPE-GUM has a longer flight time so 3 pilots are required to operate those turn. And if we are talking about GUM-SIN-GUM, or GUM-HKG-GUM then we need 4 pilots to operate the turn. But the crew that flies out of GUM or NRT on a intra-Asia cargo flight always returns back to their original departure point as does the aircraft. The aircraft is never routed NRT-HKG-GUM, both the crew and the aircraft operate a closed loop turn.
 
andrew1996
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2020 6:41 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 3:58 pm

jayunited wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Thanks - always good to have word from the inside.

I've also been told that a few cargo flights are still cycling through NRT. So the crew rests in Tokyo, then flies NRT-HKG-GUM for another rest before heading back to the mainland and that this sequence is also flown in reverse order.


No you are confusing and intermixing the two layover points.
For example ORD-PVG cargo flight will fly this route ORD-NRT (change crews) NRT-PVG-NRT (change crews) NRT-ORD.
Another example LAX-TPE cargo flight will fly this route LAX-GUM (change crews) GUM-TPE-GUM (change crews) GUM-LAX.
There are no NRT-HKG-GUM routings, although I can understand why you would think it's possible.

When a cargo flight leaves the US heading for Asia and a nonstop is not possible do to COVID restrictions (i.e. ORD-HKG-ORD) then there will be a stop over point either at NRT or GUM. The crew that picks up the flight at the stop over point flies the roundtrip i.e. NRT-XXX-NRT only or GUM-XXX-GUM only. Also not all intra-Asia cargo flights are operated with a 4 person crew. Take for instance NRT-PVG-NRT that roundtrip on many occasions is flown with just 2 pilots. UA's ground crews at both NRT and PVG are so efficient 2 pilots can operate this turn without running out of duty time. NRT-PEK-NRT and GUM-TPE-GUM has a longer flight time so 3 pilots are required to operate those turn. And if we are talking about GUM-SIN-GUM, or GUM-HKG-GUM then we need 4 pilots to operate the turn. But the crew that flies out of GUM or NRT on a intra-Asia cargo flight always returns back to their original departure point as does the aircraft. The aircraft is never routed NRT-HKG-GUM, both the crew and the aircraft operate a closed loop turn.


Just curious what types of cargo are being flown out of the US right now? Is it mainly fruits/vegetables to places like Singapore? What is flown back to the US from places like SIN or HKG other than face masks? These arnt really large manfaucting places like PVG.
Does UA codeshare with other airlines for cargo like they do for passengers with like NH?

Why does UA require its pilots to stay in GUM and not in TPE/SIN etc where there are no entry restrictions for flight crews.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 8240
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:17 pm

andrew1996 wrote:
Just curious what types of cargo are being flown out of the US right now? Is it mainly fruits/vegetables to places like Singapore? What is flown back to the US from places like SIN or HKG other than face masks? These arnt really large manfaucting places like PVG.


Really, not all goods the U.S. imports come from China. There are public data on U.S. imports and exports.

Look at goods, not goods and services. (Services don't travel in the bellies of widebody aircraft.)

Singapore was the United States' 18th largest supplier of goods imports in 2018.

U.S. goods imports from Singapore totaled $26.6 billion in 2018, up 37.4% ($7.2 billion) from 2017, and up 67.5% from 2008. U.S. imports from Singapore are up 75.8% from 2003 (pre-FTA). U.S. imports from Singapore account for 1.0% of overall U.S. imports in 2018.

The top import categories (2-digit HS) in 2018 were: pharmaceuticals ($4.9 billion), machinery ($4.5 billion), special other (returns) ($3.4 billion), organic chemicals ($2.9 billion), and optical and medical instruments ($2.8 billion).


https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/sout ... /singapore

And Hong Kong: https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/chin ... /hong-kong
 
Ishrion
Posts: 2928
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:20 pm

United adds Houston to Tallahassee, Denver to Cheyenne

https://thepointsguy.com/news/united-ai ... nnections/
 
Nicknuzzii
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:57 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:31 pm

Is it gonna be another quiet week for UA or will the October schedule drop?
 
avi8
Posts: 1192
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:36 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:34 pm

Seems like IAH and DEN have been the focus hubs as of late.
avi8
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:34 pm

OA412 wrote:
United1 wrote:
STT757 wrote:

So we finally answered what UA was going to do with the LGA slots they were using for LGA-CLE (5X daily).


To some extent yeah...the press release is a little confusing so I'm not sure exactly what is daily and what is peak day only. Either way looks like UA is jumping back into the point to point game.

There may be up too double daily service to all of those cities I listed from LGA.

https://hub.united.com/2020-08-12-adjus ... 62841.html

Looks like there will be flights from MKE, IND, CMH and PIT to Florida as well.

Interesting. That's quite a departure from UAs pre-COVID business model, but it makes sense if that's where the demand is right now.

Well? It looks like the regional approach to me. Where United has picked their cities and their Battles Like they did with the West Coast Shuttle years ago. And? that
might leave them to reprise that show as well. They Do have the Airplanes to do Both Coasts the same and to criss-cross the country as well. Hell! this might get interesting! they have a Maintenance team in South Florida and they can fly in Mechanics from all over the country if they need to.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:36 pm

It looks like UA is adding DEN-CYS and IAH-TLH too, announced today.

Interesting add at CYS - the airport had been subsidizing DFW-CYS and it seemed to be doing well. I wonder if there is any subsidy for the DEN service - does CYS still qualify under EAS? LAR isn’t too far down the road, nor is DEN itself
 
ScorpioMC3
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:52 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:39 pm

jayunited wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Thanks - always good to have word from the inside.

I've also been told that a few cargo flights are still cycling through NRT. So the crew rests in Tokyo, then flies NRT-HKG-GUM for another rest before heading back to the mainland and that this sequence is also flown in reverse order.


No you are confusing and intermixing the two layover points.
For example ORD-PVG cargo flight will fly this route ORD-NRT (change crews) NRT-PVG-NRT (change crews) NRT-ORD.
Another example LAX-TPE cargo flight will fly this route LAX-GUM (change crews) GUM-TPE-GUM (change crews) GUM-LAX.
There are no NRT-HKG-GUM routings, although I can understand why you would think it's possible.

When a cargo flight leaves the US heading for Asia and a nonstop is not possible do to COVID restrictions (i.e. ORD-HKG-ORD) then there will be a stop over point either at NRT or GUM. The crew that picks up the flight at the stop over point flies the roundtrip i.e. NRT-XXX-NRT only or GUM-XXX-GUM only. Also not all intra-Asia cargo flights are operated with a 4 person crew. Take for instance NRT-PVG-NRT that roundtrip on many occasions is flown with just 2 pilots. UA's ground crews at both NRT and PVG are so efficient 2 pilots can operate this turn without running out of duty time. NRT-PEK-NRT and GUM-TPE-GUM has a longer flight time so 3 pilots are required to operate those turn. And if we are talking about GUM-SIN-GUM, or GUM-HKG-GUM then we need 4 pilots to operate the turn. But the crew that flies out of GUM or NRT on a intra-Asia cargo flight always returns back to their original departure point as does the aircraft. The aircraft is never routed NRT-HKG-GUM, both the crew and the aircraft operate a closed loop turn.



I work at the pilot crew desk. We do indeed route crews and aircraft NRT-HKG-GUM and vice-versa. This is more recent since we stopped laying crews over in HKG.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:18 am

jayunited wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Thanks - always good to have word from the inside.

I've also been told that a few cargo flights are still cycling through NRT. So the crew rests in Tokyo, then flies NRT-HKG-GUM for another rest before heading back to the mainland and that this sequence is also flown in reverse order.


No you are confusing and intermixing the two layover points.
For example ORD-PVG cargo flight will fly this route ORD-NRT (change crews) NRT-PVG-NRT (change crews) NRT-ORD.
Another example LAX-TPE cargo flight will fly this route LAX-GUM (change crews) GUM-TPE-GUM (change crews) GUM-LAX.
There are no NRT-HKG-GUM routings, although I can understand why you would think it's possible.

When a cargo flight leaves the US heading for Asia and a nonstop is not possible do to COVID restrictions (i.e. ORD-HKG-ORD) then there will be a stop over point either at NRT or GUM. The crew that picks up the flight at the stop over point flies the roundtrip i.e. NRT-XXX-NRT only or GUM-XXX-GUM only. Also not all intra-Asia cargo flights are operated with a 4 person crew. Take for instance NRT-PVG-NRT that roundtrip on many occasions is flown with just 2 pilots. UA's ground crews at both NRT and PVG are so efficient 2 pilots can operate this turn without running out of duty time. NRT-PEK-NRT and GUM-TPE-GUM has a longer flight time so 3 pilots are required to operate those turn. And if we are talking about GUM-SIN-GUM, or GUM-HKG-GUM then we need 4 pilots to operate the turn. But the crew that flies out of GUM or NRT on a intra-Asia cargo flight always returns back to their original departure point as does the aircraft. The aircraft is never routed NRT-HKG-GUM, both the crew and the aircraft operate a closed loop turn.



I have to issue a correction to my earlier post. Usually UA does not route aircraft GUM-HKG-NRT. However today August 15, 2020 they did just that and I'm surprised no one from GUM corrected me especially seeing the reason for this last minute route change was because of a plane change at GUM.

This may get confusing because of Guam's location to the international time line, local departure times, and involved 3 77Ws, so the dates span 3 days August 14, 15, and 16.
Yesterday cargo flt UA2852-14 LAX-HKG (via GUM) tail number N2748U did not continue onward to HKG as scheduled. Instead tail number N2243U which was schedule cargo flight UA2851-15 HKG-LAX (via GUM) was turned back to HKG. These plane changes caused GUM ramp to have to offload 26,594 LBS of cargo off the inbound LAX flight UA2852-14, and 96,246 LBS of cargo off the inbound from HKG UA2851-15. Normally this does not happen, normally UA does not dump all the cargo off a flight at the crew rest stop. Normally most of the cargo loaded at the up-line station continues to the down-line station.

In doing a bit of research is looks like there may have been a captain refusal for an MEL on N2243U for the GUM-LAX leg on UA2851-15 so they swapped aircraft in GUM. As a result N2243U was re-routed GUM-HKG-NRT. Maintenance at NRT will clear the MEL on N2243U before the aircraft flies NRT-ORD as cargo flight UA2864-16. To balance the fleet back out tail number N2737U will operate cargo flights UA2865-15 ORD-HKG (via NRT) UA2851-16 HKG-LAX (via GUM).

I know it is confusing but this is exactly why airline operations run only using zulu time.
 
jetmatt777
Posts: 4323
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:16 am

Re: United route announcement August 12, 2020

Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:27 am

joeblow10 wrote:
It looks like UA is adding DEN-CYS and IAH-TLH too, announced today.

Interesting add at CYS - the airport had been subsidizing DFW-CYS and it seemed to be doing well. I wonder if there is any subsidy for the DEN service - does CYS still qualify under EAS? LAR isn’t too far down the road, nor is DEN itself

Glad to see any destinations added from DEN. I am barely on the layoff side of the knife - I rank about 51% (so barely in the bottom half) in seniority in DEN, and they sent letters to the bottom 50%. Hopefully, just a few of these adds will edge the numbers a little bit in my favor where I get my letter rescinded.

Interestingly enough, CYS is in a similar position as COS and PUB. Close enough to receive service, but in the months where it is the most helpful is when service is most likely to get canceled by weather. Those 200's on driveable stretched just have a tendency to be the first canceled when the visibility drops to zero or deicing is in effect. The main benefit to the public in the winter time is to avoid interstate closures on I-25 from snow and ice, and that's the least likely the flights operate.

I was always surprised we didn't serve CYS, though. Always seemed like a logical flight for the hub even if it loses money directly, the downline contributions can be helpful. Sometimes these small markets can be the difference in a flight to LAS, AUS, etc going out full instead of a few empty seats.
 
User avatar
Amwest2United
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:36 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:40 am

jayunited wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Thanks - always good to have word from the inside.

I've also been told that a few cargo flights are still cycling through NRT. So the crew rests in Tokyo, then flies NRT-HKG-GUM for another rest before heading back to the mainland and that this sequence is also flown in reverse order.


No you are confusing and intermixing the two layover points.
For example ORD-PVG cargo flight will fly this route ORD-NRT (change crews) NRT-PVG-NRT (change crews) NRT-ORD.
Another example LAX-TPE cargo flight will fly this route LAX-GUM (change crews) GUM-TPE-GUM (change crews) GUM-LAX.
There are no NRT-HKG-GUM routings, although I can understand why you would think it's possible.

When a cargo flight leaves the US heading for Asia and a nonstop is not possible do to COVID restrictions (i.e. ORD-HKG-ORD) then there will be a stop over point either at NRT or GUM. The crew that picks up the flight at the stop over point flies the roundtrip i.e. NRT-XXX-NRT only or GUM-XXX-GUM only. Also not all intra-Asia cargo flights are operated with a 4 person crew. Take for instance NRT-PVG-NRT that roundtrip on many occasions is flown with just 2 pilots. UA's ground crews at both NRT and PVG are so efficient 2 pilots can operate this turn without running out of duty time. NRT-PEK-NRT and GUM-TPE-GUM has a longer flight time so 3 pilots are required to operate those turn. And if we are talking about GUM-SIN-GUM, or GUM-HKG-GUM then we need 4 pilots to operate the turn. But the crew that flies out of GUM or NRT on a intra-Asia cargo flight always returns back to their original departure point as does the aircraft. The aircraft is never routed NRT-HKG-GUM, both the crew and the aircraft operate a closed loop turn.


Jay - They are operating NRT-HKG-GUM and GUM-HKG-NRT routings due to block time issues - its shorter block to operate that way, they can't do NRT-HKG-NRT. The NRT-HKG flight, 2865, originates ORD @ 1105L arriving NRT @ 1348L, then continues to HKG @ 1530 and arrives HKG @ 1835L, then turns flight 2851 HKG-GUM, 2135L-0444L, then onto LAX as thru flight 2851, departing 0545 and arriving LAX @ 0005L . The revers leaves LAX as flight 2852 @ 2210L arriving GUM @ 0311L, ten continues as thru flight 2852 @ 445am arriving HKG @ 0715, then turns HKG-NRT flight 2864 @ 0925a arriving NRT @ 1424L, then continues to ORD as through flight 2864 @ 1715L to arrive ORD @ 1510L. The crew changes are in fact Gum and NRT. This routing started @ the end of July. At one point they were planning to operate a NRT-HKG customer tag is why the times changed, not sure they are or not. It was set up to connect to SFO-NRT 837/838.
Life is what happens to you while you making plans to live it!
 
UAinAUS
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:11 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:57 am

UAX Update:

CR2:
N430AW has returned to flying
N971SW has returned to flying

E175:
N106SY is the first E175 flying in the new 70-seat configuration (12F/16E+/42Y E175 Version 3).
This Config is to comply with scope rules once UA furloughs mainline pilots.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:10 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
NoNonsense wrote:
f further retirements are officially announced, it would stand to reason the 777-As, the 767-400ERs, and half the 767-300ERs will be the first to be retired, along with the oldest 737-800s, and maybe some of the A320 and A319s.


Retiring a few of many types doesn't really get you much in structural cost savings. The big $ is in retiring sub-types, or full types: it simplifies frame scheduling, it eliminates parts inventory, it eliminates a pilot work group (think of inefficiencies from small groups across multiple bases). The 757, 753, 767 and 764 all have a common type rating.

Now, if you forecast that demand is going to be depressed for years and you've got a dozen 27-year-old A320s it's pragmatic to recognize they have little value to the carrier. Send them to retirement early.


Given that the 737's can adequately cover any A320 route? I do not find it hard to believe that many of the more elderly 320's might leave the fleet. However?
the A319-132's from CZ are a different subject. All of them have FULL Transcon range though they're presently not ETOPS (though they could be so equipped), It only matters as to how United would choose to deploy them.
 
flight152
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 8:04 am

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:25 am

strfyr51 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
NoNonsense wrote:
f further retirements are officially announced, it would stand to reason the 777-As, the 767-400ERs, and half the 767-300ERs will be the first to be retired, along with the oldest 737-800s, and maybe some of the A320 and A319s.


Retiring a few of many types doesn't really get you much in structural cost savings. The big $ is in retiring sub-types, or full types: it simplifies frame scheduling, it eliminates parts inventory, it eliminates a pilot work group (think of inefficiencies from small groups across multiple bases). The 757, 753, 767 and 764 all have a common type rating.

Now, if you forecast that demand is going to be depressed for years and you've got a dozen 27-year-old A320s it's pragmatic to recognize they have little value to the carrier. Send them to retirement early.


Given that the 737's can adequately cover any A320 route? I do not find it hard to believe that many of the more elderly 320's might leave the fleet. However?
the A319-132's from CZ are a different subject. All of them have FULL Transcon range though they're presently not ETOPS (though they could be so equipped), It only matters as to how United would choose to deploy them.

The former CZ 319’s don’t have any more range the the LUA 319’s.
 
palauanguy86
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:23 pm

Re: United Fleet, Network, & Livery Thread - 2020

Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:07 am

jayunited wrote:
jayunited wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Thanks - always good to have word from the inside.

I've also been told that a few cargo flights are still cycling through NRT. So the crew rests in Tokyo, then flies NRT-HKG-GUM for another rest before heading back to the mainland and that this sequence is also flown in reverse order.


No you are confusing and intermixing the two layover points.
For example ORD-PVG cargo flight will fly this route ORD-NRT (change crews) NRT-PVG-NRT (change crews) NRT-ORD.
Another example LAX-TPE cargo flight will fly this route LAX-GUM (change crews) GUM-TPE-GUM (change crews) GUM-LAX.
There are no NRT-HKG-GUM routings, although I can understand why you would think it's possible.

When a cargo flight leaves the US heading for Asia and a nonstop is not possible do to COVID restrictions (i.e. ORD-HKG-ORD) then there will be a stop over point either at NRT or GUM. The crew that picks up the flight at the stop over point flies the roundtrip i.e. NRT-XXX-NRT only or GUM-XXX-GUM only. Also not all intra-Asia cargo flights are operated with a 4 person crew. Take for instance NRT-PVG-NRT that roundtrip on many occasions is flown with just 2 pilots. UA's ground crews at both NRT and PVG are so efficient 2 pilots can operate this turn without running out of duty time. NRT-PEK-NRT and GUM-TPE-GUM has a longer flight time so 3 pilots are required to operate those turn. And if we are talking about GUM-SIN-GUM, or GUM-HKG-GUM then we need 4 pilots to operate the turn. But the crew that flies out of GUM or NRT on a intra-Asia cargo flight always returns back to their original departure point as does the aircraft. The aircraft is never routed NRT-HKG-GUM, both the crew and the aircraft operate a closed loop turn.



I have to issue a correction to my earlier post. Usually UA does not route aircraft GUM-HKG-NRT. However today August 15, 2020 they did just that and I'm surprised no one from GUM corrected me especially seeing the reason for this last minute route change was because of a plane change at GUM.

This may get confusing because of Guam's location to the international time line, local departure times, and involved 3 77Ws, so the dates span 3 days August 14, 15, and 16.
Yesterday cargo flt UA2852-14 LAX-HKG (via GUM) tail number N2748U did not continue onward to HKG as scheduled. Instead tail number N2243U which was schedule cargo flight UA2851-15 HKG-LAX (via GUM) was turned back to HKG. These plane changes caused GUM ramp to have to offload 26,594 LBS of cargo off the inbound LAX flight UA2852-14, and 96,246 LBS of cargo off the inbound from HKG UA2851-15. Normally this does not happen, normally UA does not dump all the cargo off a flight at the crew rest stop. Normally most of the cargo loaded at the up-line station continues to the down-line station.

In doing a bit of research is looks like there may have been a captain refusal for an MEL on N2243U for the GUM-LAX leg on UA2851-15 so they swapped aircraft in GUM. As a result N2243U was re-routed GUM-HKG-NRT. Maintenance at NRT will clear the MEL on N2243U before the aircraft flies NRT-ORD as cargo flight UA2864-16. To balance the fleet back out tail number N2737U will operate cargo flights UA2865-15 ORD-HKG (via NRT) UA2851-16 HKG-LAX (via GUM).

I know it is confusing but this is exactly why airline operations run only using zulu time.


When the HKG trip first got added to GUM, it was routed ORD-NRT-HKG-GUM-LAX and the same in reverse. I think not even a week later it became LAX-GUM-HKG-GUM-LAX.

As for the tail swap, I started work right in the middle of all the cargo swapping and quickly got mixed into the morning chaos.

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