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mcdu
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Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 2:19 pm

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2020/08/11/southwest-flight-removes-family-son-3-autism-wont-wear-mask/3350229001

Have seen this story in several outlets, this is from USA Today. Isn't there provisions for cases like this to excuse the child from wearing a mask?
 
chonetsao
Posts: 674
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:33 pm

Sorry to say that in my personal opinion, this is no normal times. Public health comes first. I support Southwest's decision even though I know deep in I have my sympathy towards the family. Yet, as I said this is not normal times, measure to keep public healthy should be the priority.
 
YYZYYT
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:37 pm

Here in Ontario Canada masks are mandatory pretty well everywhere, but there is an exemption for medical issues which prevent the wearing of a mask. Is that not the case with the US (or is this an airline-based policy)?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:40 pm

If the child can't wear a mask, the family should have thought of that before booking. They knew masks were mandatory, they knew the child would need to wear a mask as well. If the child can't, then they shouldn't fly.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:41 pm

Why in the world would you take an autistic 3 year old who can't wear a mask on a flight right now anyway? How utterly irresponsible and dangerous for your child, let alone others. It's absolutely right that she was removed.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:42 pm

YYZYYT wrote:
Here in Ontario Canada masks are mandatory pretty well everywhere, but there is an exemption for medical issues which prevent the wearing of a mask. Is that not the case with the US (or is this an airline-based policy)?



The general public is very quick to exploit any loophole, just like we saw with emotional support animals. People were flashing ADA cards and saying for medical reasons they were not wearing a mask, and it was starting to become a joke.

If they exempted a child with autism, you'd just have everyone claiming they were on the autism spectrum and were not putting a mask on.
 
atrude777
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:44 pm

mcdu wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2020/08/11/southwest-flight-removes-family-son-3-autism-wont-wear-mask/3350229001

Have seen this story in several outlets, this is from USA Today. Isn't there provisions for cases like this to excuse the child from wearing a mask?



Nope, No Mask, No exceptions..

All Airlines have this policy...United, AA, Southwest, Delta...

https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... xceptions/

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
D L X
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:45 pm

madpropsyo wrote:
Why in the world would you take an autistic 3 year old who can't wear a mask on a flight right now anyway? How utterly irresponsible and dangerous for your child, let alone others. It's absolutely right that she was removed.

You have absolutely no idea why this family chose to fly. For all you know, they could be going to treatment, or a funeral. Don't ever question someone's motives when you don't know.


With that said, removing the child was correct. I have sympathy for families dealing with autism, but autism does not exempt you from rules, particularly safety rules.
 
737max8
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 3:54 pm

D L X wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:
Why in the world would you take an autistic 3 year old who can't wear a mask on a flight right now anyway? How utterly irresponsible and dangerous for your child, let alone others. It's absolutely right that she was removed.

You have absolutely no idea why this family chose to fly. For all you know, they could be going to treatment, or a funeral. Don't ever question someone's motives when you don't know.


With that said, removing the child was correct. I have sympathy for families dealing with autism, but autism does not exempt you from rules, particularly safety rules.


Actually, the articles states they were visiting family.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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OzarkD9S
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:01 pm

737max8 wrote:

Actually, the articles states they were visiting family.


<8 hour drive from Midland, TX to Houston TX. They weren't trying to get from Midland to Miami, FL.
Next up: STL DEN PSP DEN STL
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:04 pm

D L X wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:
Why in the world would you take an autistic 3 year old who can't wear a mask on a flight right now anyway? How utterly irresponsible and dangerous for your child, let alone others. It's absolutely right that she was removed.


You have absolutely no idea why this family chose to fly. For all you know, they could be going to treatment, or a funeral. Don't ever question someone's motives when you don't know.


No, I'm still going to question it thanks. You don't have an inalienable right to escape scrutiny because you "might" have a good reason to be doing something. There are many other means of travel available and during a pandemic to take a child onto public transportation knowing full well that they can't wear a mask is terribly irresponsible regardless of the reason for travel.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:42 pm

chonetsao wrote:
Sorry to say that in my personal opinion, this is no normal times. Public health comes first. I support Southwest's decision even though I know deep in I have my sympathy towards the family. Yet, as I said this is not normal times, measure to keep public healthy should be the priority.


Totally agree, we go through this a few times a week in the casinos (adult autistic) and while we try to handle the situation with delicacy in the end, if the parents can't keep the person wearing a mask, they will be asked to leave.
 
lowfareair
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:48 pm

madpropsyo wrote:
D L X wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:
Why in the world would you take an autistic 3 year old who can't wear a mask on a flight right now anyway? How utterly irresponsible and dangerous for your child, let alone others. It's absolutely right that she was removed.


You have absolutely no idea why this family chose to fly. For all you know, they could be going to treatment, or a funeral. Don't ever question someone's motives when you don't know.


No, I'm still going to question it thanks. You don't have an inalienable right to escape scrutiny because you "might" have a good reason to be doing something. There are many other means of travel available and during a pandemic to take a child onto public transportation knowing full well that they can't wear a mask is terribly irresponsible regardless of the reason for travel.


This is the correct answer. If the child was unable to wear clothes without freaking out, would anyone say that child still had a right to be on that airplane naked?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:56 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
YYZYYT wrote:
Here in Ontario Canada masks are mandatory pretty well everywhere, but there is an exemption for medical issues which prevent the wearing of a mask. Is that not the case with the US (or is this an airline-based policy)?



The general public is very quick to exploit any loophole, just like we saw with emotional support animals. People were flashing ADA cards and saying for medical reasons they were not wearing a mask, and it was starting to become a joke.

If they exempted a child with autism, you'd just have everyone claiming they were on the autism spectrum and were not putting a mask on.

The US Tried exemptions. Due to our privacy laws, you cannot make someone prove the exemption. Because of prior abuse, there are now no exemptions. Either wear a mask, excluding infants, or do not fly.

I'm hugely in favor of social liberties, but I believe the only way to make this work is make everyone wear a mask.

Locally, no masks are required on the beach (meaning on the sand). Now that means no mask within 4 blocks of the beach. People take any out.

I've been told the people of my city drive by the rules if 48 countries. If given any out, they do not drive by California rules. Now take that "nation of immigrants" and apply to masks...

People irrationally dislike covering their face and others covering their face. It is built into the American culture that if you hide your face, something is dishonest.

Don't get me into our tradition of pranks.

So the only way is to get everyone to wear a mask is no exceptions. If you cannot wear a mask, one should isolate at home or stay in the security of a car.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:58 pm

lowfareair wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:
D L X wrote:

You have absolutely no idea why this family chose to fly. For all you know, they could be going to treatment, or a funeral. Don't ever question someone's motives when you don't know.


No, I'm still going to question it thanks. You don't have an inalienable right to escape scrutiny because you "might" have a good reason to be doing something. There are many other means of travel available and during a pandemic to take a child onto public transportation knowing full well that they can't wear a mask is terribly irresponsible regardless of the reason for travel.


This is the correct answer. If the child was unable to wear clothes without freaking out, would anyone say that child still had a right to be on that airplane naked?


Hooray for false equivalence! I knew we'd get there - and only 14 posts. That, and the lack of empathy for parents in a challenging situation - so predictable.

There are exceptions for medical requirements peppered through the typical Contract of Carriage. These rights are established in Federal law. (Yes, people with autism have rights to traveI without undue burden.) I expect a carrier that tries to pursue the No mask - No travel - No exceptions policy in court will lose. I bet they lack the balls to try. They will settle out of court discreetly so the scope of their unlawful bullying won't be confirmed in court.
 
jreeves96
Posts: 27
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:08 pm

Exemptions to face coverings
Young children under the age of 2.​
If a Customer is unable to wear a face covering for any reason (even a verifiable medical condition), we regret that we are unable to transport the Customer at this time, due to safety risk of asymptomatic COVID-19 transmission by Customers without face coverings. In other words, because of public health guidance recognizing the important role of face coverings in preventing the transmission of COVID-19, Southwest will temporarily refuse to transport any passenger who is unable to wear a mask even if the Customer has a verifiable medical condition that prevents them from wearing a mask.​


Straight from Southwest's website. Slow news day. Move on.
 
mcdu
Topic Author
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:15 pm

jreeves96 wrote:
Exemptions to face coverings
Young children under the age of 2.​
If a Customer is unable to wear a face covering for any reason (even a verifiable medical condition), we regret that we are unable to transport the Customer at this time, due to safety risk of asymptomatic COVID-19 transmission by Customers without face coverings. In other words, because of public health guidance recognizing the important role of face coverings in preventing the transmission of COVID-19, Southwest will temporarily refuse to transport any passenger who is unable to wear a mask even if the Customer has a verifiable medical condition that prevents them from wearing a mask.​


Straight from Southwest's website. Slow news day. Move on.



I am sure the parent reading every paragraph on the WN website. Also, perhaps the child was able to put on the mask but the extra stimulation of the airplane created this issue. I do feel sorry for the family. However, maybe they are safer if they can wear a mask and ride on another carrier that is dedicated to cleaning their aircraft. I am still surprised WN does not feel seatbelts and armrest are high touch items, yet lavatories and tray tables are? I always use a seatbelt and armrest on a plane but rarely a tray table or lavatory domestically.
 
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madpropsyo
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:25 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
lowfareair wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:

No, I'm still going to question it thanks. You don't have an inalienable right to escape scrutiny because you "might" have a good reason to be doing something. There are many other means of travel available and during a pandemic to take a child onto public transportation knowing full well that they can't wear a mask is terribly irresponsible regardless of the reason for travel.


This is the correct answer. If the child was unable to wear clothes without freaking out, would anyone say that child still had a right to be on that airplane naked?


Hooray for false equivalence! I knew we'd get there - and only 14 posts. That, and the lack of empathy for parents in a challenging situation - so predictable.

There are exceptions for medical requirements peppered through the typical Contract of Carriage. These rights are established in Federal law. (Yes, people with autism have rights to traveI without undue burden.) I expect a carrier that tries to pursue the No mask - No travel - No exceptions policy in court will lose. I bet they lack the balls to try. They will settle out of court discreetly so the scope of their unlawful bullying won't be confirmed in court.



Wearing a mask is not an "undue burden," as has been made quite clear in the last few months. There will be no settlements. The family in question could have hopped in a car instead of trying to fly knowing full well they couldn't comply with the rules to keep their child and others safe, so please save the sob story. The challenging situation was one they created themselves.
 
enplaned
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:32 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
lowfareair wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:

No, I'm still going to question it thanks. You don't have an inalienable right to escape scrutiny because you "might" have a good reason to be doing something. There are many other means of travel available and during a pandemic to take a child onto public transportation knowing full well that they can't wear a mask is terribly irresponsible regardless of the reason for travel.


This is the correct answer. If the child was unable to wear clothes without freaking out, would anyone say that child still had a right to be on that airplane naked?


Hooray for false equivalence! I knew we'd get there - and only 14 posts. That, and the lack of empathy for parents in a challenging situation - so predictable.

There are exceptions for medical requirements peppered through the typical Contract of Carriage. These rights are established in Federal law. (Yes, people with autism have rights to traveI without undue burden.) I expect a carrier that tries to pursue the No mask - No travel - No exceptions policy in court will lose. I bet they lack the balls to try. They will settle out of court discreetly so the scope of their unlawful bullying won't be confirmed in court.


ADA requires "reasonable" accommodations. Southwest has a lot of lawyers, and presumably vetted their policy with them before this. They would not do this unless they believed that they had a good chance of winning against that standard.

Not sure if the ADA has been tested in this pandemic situation, but since this is the first pandemic that I know of since the ADA was passed, I assume not. What is "reasonable" in a pandemic may be different from what is "reasonable" outside of one. We'll find out.

Southwest and the other airlines with the hard-line stance didn't do this without thought - they consulted with their lawyers and came to the conclusion that this is a legally advisable way to proceed.

You see it as bullying, others will see it as entirely reasonable. A judge will likely decide, but almost certainly the lawyers of Southwest, American, etc, have told them they're on fairly safe ground otherwise they would not have proceeded in this direction.
 
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9lflyguy
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:32 pm

The airline is following it own policy which ticket holders agree to when they purchase their ticket. Nothing to see here. Just people wanting to bash WN. Move on....
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Flflyer83
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:38 pm

enplaned wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
lowfareair wrote:

This is the correct answer. If the child was unable to wear clothes without freaking out, would anyone say that child still had a right to be on that airplane naked?


Hooray for false equivalence! I knew we'd get there - and only 14 posts. That, and the lack of empathy for parents in a challenging situation - so predictable.

There are exceptions for medical requirements peppered through the typical Contract of Carriage. These rights are established in Federal law. (Yes, people with autism have rights to traveI without undue burden.) I expect a carrier that tries to pursue the No mask - No travel - No exceptions policy in court will lose. I bet they lack the balls to try. They will settle out of court discreetly so the scope of their unlawful bullying won't be confirmed in court.


ADA requires "reasonable" accommodations. Southwest has a lot of lawyers, and presumably vetted their policy with them before this. They would not do this unless they believed that they had a good chance of winning against that standard.

Not sure if the ADA has been tested in this pandemic situation, but since this is the first pandemic that I know of since the ADA was passed, I assume not. What is "reasonable" in a pandemic may be different from what is "reasonable" outside of one. We'll find out.

Southwest and the other airlines with the hard-line stance didn't do this without thought - they consulted with their lawyers and came to the conclusion that this is a legally advisable way to proceed.

You see it as bullying, others will see it as entirely reasonable. A judge will likely decide, but almost certainly the lawyers of Southwest, American, etc, have told them they're on fairly safe ground otherwise they would not have proceeded in this direction.


The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) does not apply to airlines, the Air Carrier Access Act does.
 
2175301
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:40 pm

I understand the mask policy; and I propose that there should indeed be an exemption... for those who show up with an approved full face Positive Air Pressure Respirator (PAPR). Those are rated equivalent or better than a N99 mask - and are what are used in infectious disease wards. They also cost several thousand dollars each (plus replacement filters, etc.). I happen to own 2 of them. With my spare battery I can get at least 16 hours straight use (and have done up to 12 hours several times). I will wear them to my Dr. Appointments this year.

Have a great day,
 
YYZYYT
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:25 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
YYZYYT wrote:
Here in Ontario Canada masks are mandatory pretty well everywhere, but there is an exemption for medical issues which prevent the wearing of a mask. Is that not the case with the US (or is this an airline-based policy)?



The general public is very quick to exploit any loophole, just like we saw with emotional support animals. People were flashing ADA cards and saying for medical reasons they were not wearing a mask, and it was starting to become a joke.

If they exempted a child with autism, you'd just have everyone claiming they were on the autism spectrum and were not putting a mask on.


lightsaber wrote:
The US Tried exemptions. Due to our privacy laws, you cannot make someone prove the exemption. Because of prior abuse, there are now no exemptions. Either wear a mask, excluding infants, or do not fly.



Hm. We do have privacy laws here as well (contrary to what some may think, lol), and there are simple solutions - eg, you need a doctor's note, on letterhead, with a date, that clearly states that you qualify for an exemption from wearing a mask; it does NOT need to state what the medical condition is.

I agree with cracking down on abuses (don't get me stated on the subject of "emotional support animals"), but this specific case is is a hard situation with no easy answers.
 
lowfareair
Posts: 315
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:39 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
lowfareair wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:

No, I'm still going to question it thanks. You don't have an inalienable right to escape scrutiny because you "might" have a good reason to be doing something. There are many other means of travel available and during a pandemic to take a child onto public transportation knowing full well that they can't wear a mask is terribly irresponsible regardless of the reason for travel.


This is the correct answer. If the child was unable to wear clothes without freaking out, would anyone say that child still had a right to be on that airplane naked?


Hooray for false equivalence! I knew we'd get there - and only 14 posts. That, and the lack of empathy for parents in a challenging situation - so predictable.

There are exceptions for medical requirements peppered through the typical Contract of Carriage. These rights are established in Federal law. (Yes, people with autism have rights to traveI without undue burden.)


If someone with autism cannot deal with clothing, are they allowed to travel naked to prevent an undue burden, and if not, why not?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1979
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:36 pm

jreeves96 wrote:
Exemptions to face coverings
Young children under the age of 2.​
If a Customer is unable to wear a face covering for any reason (even a verifiable medical condition), we regret that we are unable to transport the Customer at this time, due to safety risk of asymptomatic COVID-19 transmission by Customers without face coverings. In other words, because of public health guidance recognizing the important role of face coverings in preventing the transmission of COVID-19, Southwest will temporarily refuse to transport any passenger who is unable to wear a mask even if the Customer has a verifiable medical condition that prevents them from wearing a mask.​


Straight from Southwest's website. Slow news day. Move on.

"Age of 2" seems a bit strict. It can be difficult enough to keep a shirt on a 3-year-old, let alone an uncomfortable mask. Where I live, businesses have set 6 years as the cutoff, because that's an age where you can expect the kid to understand why the mask is neccesary (also most masks are designed for adults, not children).
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:50 pm

And my autistic child refuses to wear a seatbelt.

Are we good to fly? Please - it's a special case; it's his 17th visit to Disneyworld.

(Yes, I do genuinely have an autistic child, although not one of the more extreme cases. He doesn't need to understand why something has to be done, only that it must be so. Or we go straight home.
The problem is that for an autistic child, going home is often the preferred option anyway - for him, not necessarily for the remainder of the family. That is the price you pay.)
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:19 pm

Such a sad state of affairs. I am extremely disheartened at the horrible comments made about this child. It doesn't take much for you all to turn on each other. It's like that Twilight Zone episode "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street". I'm glad I have my ratings and have been able to fly myself where I need to be during these times. I'm not scared of the virus. I'm scared of the people.
 
WNbob
Posts: 45
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:25 am

"The Need of the Many Outweigh the Need of the Few or the One."

Well, is WRITTEN on the official policy, no wishy-washy this time, so I figure the airline rather pays you behind the scene, if that's what you think they will do, and consistently re-assuring the general flying public it is as safe as possible.
Last edited by WNbob on Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
OB1504
Posts: 3976
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:25 am

Flflyer83 wrote:
enplaned wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Hooray for false equivalence! I knew we'd get there - and only 14 posts. That, and the lack of empathy for parents in a challenging situation - so predictable.

There are exceptions for medical requirements peppered through the typical Contract of Carriage. These rights are established in Federal law. (Yes, people with autism have rights to traveI without undue burden.) I expect a carrier that tries to pursue the No mask - No travel - No exceptions policy in court will lose. I bet they lack the balls to try. They will settle out of court discreetly so the scope of their unlawful bullying won't be confirmed in court.


ADA requires "reasonable" accommodations. Southwest has a lot of lawyers, and presumably vetted their policy with them before this. They would not do this unless they believed that they had a good chance of winning against that standard.

Not sure if the ADA has been tested in this pandemic situation, but since this is the first pandemic that I know of since the ADA was passed, I assume not. What is "reasonable" in a pandemic may be different from what is "reasonable" outside of one. We'll find out.

Southwest and the other airlines with the hard-line stance didn't do this without thought - they consulted with their lawyers and came to the conclusion that this is a legally advisable way to proceed.

You see it as bullying, others will see it as entirely reasonable. A judge will likely decide, but almost certainly the lawyers of Southwest, American, etc, have told them they're on fairly safe ground otherwise they would not have proceeded in this direction.


The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) does not apply to airlines, the Air Carrier Access Act does.


And due to the nature of air travel, the Air Carrier Access Act explicitly allows airlines to deny boarding to a disabled customer if accommodating them would pose an undue risk to themselves or others on the airplane.

I agree that the airlines wouldn’t have enacted such a strict policy if they doubted its legality. Most importantly, they need people to feel safe flying again and that means showing the public that they’re serious about following WHO and CDC safety guidelines.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1726
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:02 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
lowfareair wrote:
madpropsyo wrote:

No, I'm still going to question it thanks. You don't have an inalienable right to escape scrutiny because you "might" have a good reason to be doing something. There are many other means of travel available and during a pandemic to take a child onto public transportation knowing full well that they can't wear a mask is terribly irresponsible regardless of the reason for travel.


This is the correct answer. If the child was unable to wear clothes without freaking out, would anyone say that child still had a right to be on that airplane naked?


Hooray for false equivalence! I knew we'd get there - and only 14 posts. That, and the lack of empathy for parents in a challenging situation - so predictable.

There are exceptions for medical requirements peppered through the typical Contract of Carriage. These rights are established in Federal law. (Yes, people with autism have rights to traveI without undue burden.) I expect a carrier that tries to pursue the No mask - No travel - No exceptions policy in court will lose. I bet they lack the balls to try. They will settle out of court discreetly so the scope of their unlawful bullying won't be confirmed in court.


Southwest only reaffirmed their policy in the statement they made about the event - there was nothing that indicated that they would settle anything. Settling would be de facto admitting they've done something wrong and they are sticking to their guns, so I doubt anyone is gonna see a settlement.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:05 am

3 year olds won’t wear the masks anyway. Try to make one.

And considering some states its 8 and over or 6 and over, the 3 and over is the most draconian version of the mask rule.

And the mask orders clearly exempt non-ill people with a disability preventing them from wearing one.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
jetwet1
Posts: 3242
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:42 am

Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:18 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Such a sad state of affairs. I am extremely disheartened at the horrible comments made about this child. It doesn't take much for you all to turn on each other. It's like that Twilight Zone episode "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street". I'm glad I have my ratings and have been able to fly myself where I need to be during these times. I'm not scared of the virus. I'm scared of the people.


What horrible comments ? Everyone has said the same thing, it sucks, but WN was correct.

The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few.

And you should be scared of this virus, it is a horrible way to die.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 2590
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:30 am

OB1504 wrote:
Flflyer83 wrote:
enplaned wrote:

ADA requires "reasonable" accommodations. Southwest has a lot of lawyers, and presumably vetted their policy with them before this. They would not do this unless they believed that they had a good chance of winning against that standard.

Not sure if the ADA has been tested in this pandemic situation, but since this is the first pandemic that I know of since the ADA was passed, I assume not. What is "reasonable" in a pandemic may be different from what is "reasonable" outside of one. We'll find out.

Southwest and the other airlines with the hard-line stance didn't do this without thought - they consulted with their lawyers and came to the conclusion that this is a legally advisable way to proceed.

You see it as bullying, others will see it as entirely reasonable. A judge will likely decide, but almost certainly the lawyers of Southwest, American, etc, have told them they're on fairly safe ground otherwise they would not have proceeded in this direction.


The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) does not apply to airlines, the Air Carrier Access Act does.


And due to the nature of air travel, the Air Carrier Access Act explicitly allows airlines to deny boarding to a disabled customer if accommodating them would pose an undue risk to themselves or others on the airplane.

I agree that the airlines wouldn’t have enacted such a strict policy if they doubted its legality. Most importantly, they need people to feel safe flying again and that means showing the public that they’re serious about following WHO and CDC safety guidelines.


Did you feel safer being required to stay in your seats thirty minutes into and out of DCA after 9/11?
 
alfa164
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:20 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
Did you feel safer being required to stay in your seats thirty minutes into and out of DCA after 9/11?



Now that's a false equivalency!
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TTailedTiger
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:44 am

alfa164 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Did you feel safer being required to stay in your seats thirty minutes into and out of DCA after 9/11?



Now that's a false equivalency!


I was responding to "they need people to feel safe flying again". Emphasis on the word feel. I was comparing one arbitrary rule with another.
 
raylee67
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:53 am

YYZYYT wrote:
Here in Ontario Canada masks are mandatory pretty well everywhere, but there is an exemption for medical issues which prevent the wearing of a mask. Is that not the case with the US (or is this an airline-based policy)?

An official note from a doctor is required to prove that a person has a legitimate medical reason to exempt from the rule in Canada.

See
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.5681510
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zeke
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:53 am

ikramerica wrote:
3 year olds won’t wear the masks anyway. Try to make one.

And considering some states its 8 and over or 6 and over, the 3 and over is the most draconian version of the mask rule.

And the mask orders clearly exempt non-ill people with a disability preventing them from wearing one.


Some countries say children under the age of 12 are not to wear masks as they present a suffocation and chocking hazard.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:29 pm

A possible work around for a person with such a medical condition: certain flights would be set up with a section for non-mask wearing (and family members). Such person have a recent certified test showing no disease. Flights might be available only once or twice a month. Only one airliner would offer this, and not all airports would have such service. This would weed out all the 'wanna be's'. FAA could ask various airports(?) to arrange such flights for longer legs - say a thousand miles.
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kalvado
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:36 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
A possible work around for a person with such a medical condition: certain flights would be set up with a section for non-mask wearing (and family members). Such person have a recent certified test showing no disease. Flights might be available only once or twice a month. Only one airliner would offer this, and not all airports would have such service. This would weed out all the 'wanna be's'. FAA could ask various airports(?) to arrange such flights for longer legs - say a thousand miles.

Add double pay for FAs working the flight in hazmat suit...
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:57 pm

raylee67 wrote:
YYZYYT wrote:
Here in Ontario Canada masks are mandatory pretty well everywhere, but there is an exemption for medical issues which prevent the wearing of a mask. Is that not the case with the US (or is this an airline-based policy)?

An official note from a doctor is required to prove that a person has a legitimate medical reason to exempt from the rule in Canada.

See
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.5681510

Doctors hand out those notes too easily in the USA. Hence why the policy must be absolute as the system has been abused.

To others, I see expensive solutions when there are acceptable mask alternatives or in this case, driving was an option.

If you are too fragile to wear a mask, you probably won't survive Covid19 or would be unable to stop from spreading it.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
Alfons
Posts: 310
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:09 pm

mcdu wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2020/08/11/southwest-flight-removes-family-son-3-autism-wont-wear-mask/3350229001

Have seen this story in several outlets, this is from USA Today. Isn't there provisions for cases like this to excuse the child from wearing a mask?


Really? There are US laws demanding 3 year old children - with autism or not - to wear a mask?
Nice...
 
737max8
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:42 pm

BTW, those discussing age....the guidelines come from the CDC:

CDC recommends all people 2 years of age and older wear a mask in public settings and when around people who don’t live in your household, especially when other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... dance.html

Airlines have to enforce everyone to wear a mask, or defiant americans will use every excuse in the book not to wear one and put others in danger.
The thoughts and opinions expressed in my comments do not represent that of any airline or affiliate.
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nws2002
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:47 pm

Alfons wrote:
mcdu wrote:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2020/08/11/southwest-flight-removes-family-son-3-autism-wont-wear-mask/3350229001

Have seen this story in several outlets, this is from USA Today. Isn't there provisions for cases like this to excuse the child from wearing a mask?


Really? There are US laws demanding 3 year old children - with autism or not - to wear a mask?
Nice...


Unfortunately, it is not a law because our federal government refuses to act. So each airline has been forced to create their own policy.
 
alfa164
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:53 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
Did you feel safer being required to stay in your seats thirty minutes into and out of DCA after 9/11?

Now that's a false equivalency!

I was responding to "they need people to feel safe flying again". Emphasis on the word feel. I was comparing one arbitrary rule with another.


There is nothing "arbitrary" about requiring people to wear face masks..... unless you are a conspiracy theorist, or don't believe in science. Then you need more help than any ordinary doctor can give.

:roll:


737max8 wrote:
Airlines have to enforce everyone to wear a mask, or defiant americans will use every excuse in the book not to wear one and put others in danger.


:checkmark: . We have become a country of too many "Karens" - of both sexes!
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
FSflyer899
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:47 pm

My kids (2 & 4) and all their friends/schoolmates wear mask at the daycare, all day, except eating and playing outside, where they practice social distancing. They also know to wash their hands often for at least 20 seconds, and use hand sanitizer where available. Sometimes they just wear mask inside the car. It is just a matter of time, getting used to wearing one, and teaching them the concept of responsibility and public health. They have been told if someone in the school get the virus, the school will close and they have to stuck at home all over again for don't know how long, and they know that's no fun. During this time it will be different and sometime tough to get kids getting used to wearing a mask, but better preparation will help not only yourself but everyone else.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:11 pm

alfa164 wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
Now that's a false equivalency!

I was responding to "they need people to feel safe flying again". Emphasis on the word feel. I was comparing one arbitrary rule with another.


There is nothing "arbitrary" about requiring people to wear face masks..... unless you are a conspiracy theorist, or don't believe in science. Then you need more help than any ordinary doctor can give.

:roll:


737max8 wrote:
Airlines have to enforce everyone to wear a mask, or defiant americans will use every excuse in the book not to wear one and put others in danger.


:checkmark: . We have become a country of too many "Karens" - of both sexes!

Face masks reduce transmission. How much is worthy of debate. I've seen Ro reduction of 1 (probably reality as people don't cover the nose... Gee, how does that help...) to 80% reduction:

https://www.livescience.com/face-masks- ... ntion.html

It needs to be everyone as the mask protects others more than oneself.

Lightsaber
Winter is coming.
 
DALMD80
Posts: 501
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:20 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
If the child can't wear a mask, the family should have thought of that before booking. They knew masks were mandatory, they knew the child would need to wear a mask as well. If the child can't, then they shouldn't fly.

I agree. While I empathize with the family, it was irresponsible to take the child on the flight, because it put the health of others at risk. While they may have had a good reason to fly, there's also a need to protect public health.
2 things- Wear a mask, and vote. It's that simple.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:32 pm

A few things:

o The ADA doesn’t apply to air carriers
o The Air Carrier Access Act (14CFR382) does
o While people with disabilities or medical issues may be provided with reasonable accommodation under the ACAA, safety supersedes those accommodations
o As air carriers have determined that wearing masks onboard is a safety issue, no individual over the age of 2 is required to be accommodated by not wearing a mask

I hope this clears up any confusion.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ozark1
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:38 am

Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:45 pm

The family had every opportunity to research the rules prior to booking their trip. They probably weren’t just going to Houston from MAF, but if they were...easily driveable. I’m wondering if the parents tested the child to see how they would react to the mask. I completely support WN in this situation. It makes some great media drama, but the airline was simply following the rules that had been established. Once again, a story to push everyone’s anti-airline buttons
 
N766UA
Posts: 8339
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

Re: Southwest removes autistic child due to mask issue

Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:53 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
If the child can't wear a mask, the family should have thought of that before booking. They knew masks were mandatory, they knew the child would need to wear a mask as well. If the child can't, then they shouldn't fly.


Agree 100%. This family thought they were special and exempt from the rules. It’s selfish.

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