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MLIAA
Posts: 212
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 11:08 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Fri Aug 21, 2020 7:14 pm

alo2yyz wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
DBQ is an interesting one; it has a (relatively) decent catchment area, and has several airports just far enough away to not be practical (eg CID, LSE, MSN).


Eh. The thing about DBQ is that of the metro areas around there, it is by far the smallest. Aside from a John Deere plant, there's not much going on. With business and university travel next to nil, this doesn't surprise me. DBQ is well-connected by four-lane expressways to ALO, CID, and MLI (not that I would want to do it in the winter). LSE and MSN are rather unpleasant drives (winding two lanes) from DBQ.

Pretty much everyone I know in the area drives to RST, CID, or MLI for domestic flights, regardless of if it's business or personal travel. Many at LSE go to MSP. The fares out of LSE/ALO/DBQ are high, and the flights are infrequent (but somewhat better at LSE than the other two). The three smaller airports suffer from a self-fulfilling prophecy of no demand + limited frequency because of high fares, and high fares + limited supply because of no demand.


DBQ is also a very expensive airport to fly from. Fares are ALWAYS higher than the surrounding airports. ORD is only about 2.5-3 hours away too, so by the time you drive 90 minutes to CID or MLI or MSN you might as well drive to ORD.

(MSN also has a decent 4 lane highway now from DBQ)
A319 A320 A321 A332 B712 B722 B737 B738 B739 B744 B752 B763 B764 B772 B788 B789 MD80 S340 E140 E145 E170 E175 E195 CRJ2 CRJ7 CRJ9
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1239
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:48 pm

jetmatt777 wrote:
tax1k wrote:
This may be a dumb question but why do airlines need their own independent operations at these airports? It seems to me many of the employees are contractors anyway so why can’t they check in UA passengers from 8-10 and AA passengers from 10-12?


When ground service contracts are written, they typically specify dedicated staff of a certain level. They want operations to be independent - do you think American would like it if a United flight was delayed and the ground handler is unable to staff the AA flight because they are still occupied with UA?

Or occupied with the 5 express, and 4 mainline diversions from ORD during a snowstorm.

I was the victim of that, many years ago, and it wasn’t even my company that dropped the birds in, I just got stuck with 2 MD80’s and 4 ATR’s. All of the other diverts were full, and it was still listed in the dispatch books as an Eagle Station, which it hadn’t been for a couple of years. At a station that saw 3-4 1900’s a day. During peak....

That was a lot of fun. Captains calling for catering, lav service and fuel, none of which were available, another wanting to deplane, an Eagle driver asking what hotel they were going to, the kind of Thing that airline employees have nightmares about. And it happened more than once.
 
FLYSPI
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:37 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:12 pm

FlyingElvii wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:
tax1k wrote:
This may be a dumb question but why do airlines need their own independent operations at these airports? It seems to me many of the employees are contractors anyway so why can’t they check in UA passengers from 8-10 and AA passengers from 10-12?


When ground service contracts are written, they typically specify dedicated staff of a certain level. They want operations to be independent - do you think American would like it if a United flight was delayed and the ground handler is unable to staff the AA flight because they are still occupied with UA?

Or occupied with the 5 express, and 4 mainline diversions from ORD during a snowstorm.

I was the victim of that, many years ago, and it wasn’t even my company that dropped the birds in, I just got stuck with 2 MD80’s and 4 ATR’s. All of the other diverts were full, and it was still listed in the dispatch books as an Eagle Station, which it hadn’t been for a couple of years. At a station that saw 3-4 1900’s a day. During peak....

That was a lot of fun. Captains calling for catering, lav service and fuel, none of which were available, another wanting to deplane, an Eagle driver asking what hotel they were going to, the kind of Thing that airline employees have nightmares about. And it happened more than once.


I loved diversion days. We were a J31 city and would often get all sorts of TW diversions from STL.. MD80s,727s, DC-9s, occasionally 767s and our own Jetstreams and ATRs. I think I was the only sick fool who enjoyed it .. but I did! I miss those days
Just joined, but been visiting A.net since 1998
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TomJoel
Posts: 36
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:02 pm

Re: Confirmed AA service suspensions

Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:14 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
enplaned wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:

I'm surprised they still serve BOTH Lawton and Wichita Falls...30 miles apart...both see about 2x daily on ERD/ER4 to DFW right now, that's it. I get the military traffic, but this one seems ripe for consolidation to one airport over the other.


There are no doubt shoes yet to drop. But for now, the list already included one from Texas and one from Oklahoma. When American needs to further up the ante, it may well drop one or both of Lawton and Wichita Falls. This is being choreographed, and it's not yet time for the staged sacrifice of another Texas or Oklahoma point.


I will give AA this, they were expanding like crazy before the pandemic. They were taking a lot of chances on smaller markets in the US. I guess its no surprise some didnt work.

They wont drop LAW for sure. Too much military traffic. SPS may pretty thin as it is, but AA kept all small Texas markets within a two hour drive of DFW (SPS, ACT, GGG, and TYR). Those would have been the ones I thought would go.


Yeah I figured most of the intra-texas flights would stop (ABI, SPS, SJT, TYR, ACT). ABI, SPS and SJT all stick out to me because none of these markets can support E40/45 service as it is, much less E70 service. Also, all of these markets are 2.5 hours or less from DFW. AA needs to trim these markets before leaving markets such as DBQ and ROW!!
 
smokeybandit
Posts: 1513
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: Confirmed AA service suspensions

Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:37 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
DiamondFlyer wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
Very few surprises to me on that list - and frankly, surprised it’s not larger.

ROW is a bit surprising - no other service from anyone else, and it’s 3 hours from ABQ, 2 hours from dinky HOB. Wouldn’t be shocked if the govt has to step in and make this EAS again. Same with DRT - unless you fancy a drive into Mexico to catch your plane.


Most of these cities would be eligible for EAS, if they're left with no service.


Williamsport (IPT) is one. Whether the infrequent prop beats the drive to SCE is a question I would have to ask myself for every trip.


IPT just recently put in a jetway for that one flight a day, too. I've made that flight before while going to SCE since flying into SCE is often much more expensive
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:47 pm

[quote="FlyingElvii"][quote="AVLAirlineFreq"]A few of these markets were likely going to be in jeopardy in the future anyway as 50-seaters disappeared from the fleet, but these are obviously different circumstances.[/quote

The only reason the 50-seaters Pe-Covid were being used by OO flying on behalf of UA and DL at SBN was that they were rotated in for maintenance. However OO is doing overnight maintenance on the bigger CRJs now so it's just a matter of time and traffic recovery and these will be phased out and maybe just used for the UA ORD flights and DL DTW flights.

At SBN all AA flights are worked by Corporate Wings for both the counter and below wing. I'm not positive but the DL and UA flights are worked by the former DGS with the UA counter worked by ZW and DL counter by DL.
 
airlineworker
Posts: 292
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
enplaned wrote:
capejet wrote:
Are these suspensions all for one month? Is there a chance some will be permanent?


Nominally. The obvious message from American to the relevant congresscritters is "nice little airport you have there. Be a shame if there was no service. You can ensure continued service for another six months by writing us another check for multiple billions of dollars..."

We sure do love to extoll the virtues of our free market system. But we also love to find all kinds of reasons why certain things are far far too important to leave up to the invisible hand...

I'm having a hard time seeing the CT congress members getting all that excited about losing HVN. It's not like it's really implanted itself into many people's travel itineraries.


The politicians never supported HVN, they feel BDL is the only commercial airport the state needs. One look at a state map shows just the opposite, being a few miles from Massachusetts does not fit the description of an airport for,the entire state. New London-Groton use PVD, Fairfield uses HPN. Since AA started HVN jet service in 2017, each year passenger numbers grew by a healthy increase and even during the past few months, HVN-PHL flight loads were on par with BDL-PHL. At the same time,BDL-CLT flights were mainline and had much higher numbers and I thought HVN-CLT flight loads would increase as did BDL-CLT flights. CLT flights start on 9-9-2020. Here's hoping AA will return.
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 9328
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:19 pm

airlineworker wrote:
The politicians never supported HVN, they feel BDL is the only commercial airport the state needs. One look at a state map shows just the opposite, being a few miles from Massachusetts does not fit the description of an airport for,the entire state. New London-Groton use PVD, Fairfield uses HPN. Since AA started HVN jet service in 2017, each year passenger numbers grew by a healthy increase and even during the past few months, HVN-PHL flight loads were on par with BDL-PHL. At the same time,BDL-CLT flights were mainline and had much higher numbers and I thought HVN-CLT flight loads would increase as did BDL-CLT flights. CLT flights start on 9-9-2020. Here's hoping AA will return.


I don't think it's going to roll that way. You can right now start thinking of LGA/JFK as Greater Stamford International Airport.
 
airlineworker
Posts: 292
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:56 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
The politicians never supported HVN, they feel BDL is the only commercial airport the state needs. One look at a state map shows just the opposite, being a few miles from Massachusetts does not fit the description of an airport for,the entire state. New London-Groton use PVD, Fairfield uses HPN. Since AA started HVN jet service in 2017, each year passenger numbers grew by a healthy increase and even during the past few months, HVN-PHL flight loads were on par with BDL-PHL. At the same time,BDL-CLT flights were mainline and had much higher numbers and I thought HVN-CLT flight loads would increase as did BDL-CLT flights. CLT flights start on 9-9-2020. Here's hoping AA will return.


I don't think it's going to roll that way. You can right now start thinking of LGA/JFK as Greater Stamford International Airport.


Stamford? HPN much closer.
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7228
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:27 pm

airlineworker wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
The politicians never supported HVN, they feel BDL is the only commercial airport the state needs. One look at a state map shows just the opposite, being a few miles from Massachusetts does not fit the description of an airport for,the entire state. New London-Groton use PVD, Fairfield uses HPN. Since AA started HVN jet service in 2017, each year passenger numbers grew by a healthy increase and even during the past few months, HVN-PHL flight loads were on par with BDL-PHL. At the same time,BDL-CLT flights were mainline and had much higher numbers and I thought HVN-CLT flight loads would increase as did BDL-CLT flights. CLT flights start on 9-9-2020. Here's hoping AA will return.


I don't think it's going to roll that way. You can right now start thinking of LGA/JFK as Greater Stamford International Airport.


Stamford? HPN much closer.


HPN is much closer but has a fraction of the flights that LGA/JFK have. If you manage to avoid traffic, LGA is only about 15 minutes more than HPN and JFK is only about 20-25 minutes more than HPN. From there, you have plenty of nonstop flights, rather than most likely having to connect somewhere from HPN.
 
enplaned
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:46 am

airlineworker wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
The politicians never supported HVN, they feel BDL is the only commercial airport the state needs. One look at a state map shows just the opposite, being a few miles from Massachusetts does not fit the description of an airport for,the entire state. New London-Groton use PVD, Fairfield uses HPN. Since AA started HVN jet service in 2017, each year passenger numbers grew by a healthy increase and even during the past few months, HVN-PHL flight loads were on par with BDL-PHL. At the same time,BDL-CLT flights were mainline and had much higher numbers and I thought HVN-CLT flight loads would increase as did BDL-CLT flights. CLT flights start on 9-9-2020. Here's hoping AA will return.


I don't think it's going to roll that way. You can right now start thinking of LGA/JFK as Greater Stamford International Airport.


Stamford? HPN much closer.


HPN is very unlikely to be more than it is - effective cap of 1.5-2mm pax per year. That neuters it from a competitive standpoint. A lot of folks aren't even aware of its existence.
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1691
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Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:36 am

freakyrat wrote:

At SBN all AA flights are worked by Corporate Wings for both the counter and below wing. I'm not positive but the DL and UA flights are worked by the former DGS with the UA counter worked by ZW and DL counter by DL.


No mainline DL employees at SBN. NW had employees there prior to filing BK...
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1239
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:54 am

FLYSPI wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:
jetmatt777 wrote:

When ground service contracts are written, they typically specify dedicated staff of a certain level. They want operations to be independent - do you think American would like it if a United flight was delayed and the ground handler is unable to staff the AA flight because they are still occupied with UA?

Or occupied with the 5 express, and 4 mainline diversions from ORD during a snowstorm.

I was the victim of that, many years ago, and it wasn’t even my company that dropped the birds in, I just got stuck with 2 MD80’s and 4 ATR’s. All of the other diverts were full, and it was still listed in the dispatch books as an Eagle Station, which it hadn’t been for a couple of years. At a station that saw 3-4 1900’s a day. During peak....

That was a lot of fun. Captains calling for catering, lav service and fuel, none of which were available, another wanting to deplane, an Eagle driver asking what hotel they were going to, the kind of Thing that airline employees have nightmares about. And it happened more than once.


I loved diversion days. We were a J31 city and would often get all sorts of TW diversions from STL.. MD80s,727s, DC-9s, occasionally 767s and our own Jetstreams and ATRs. I think I was the only sick fool who enjoyed it .. but I did! I miss those days


Them you understand EXACTLY what I am talking about. I was in a one EAS airline college town, likely not far away from you.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1239
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Confirmed AA service suspensions

Sat Aug 22, 2020 1:57 am

TomJoel wrote:
LAXdude1023 wrote:
enplaned wrote:

There are no doubt shoes yet to drop. But for now, the list already included one from Texas and one from Oklahoma. When American needs to further up the ante, it may well drop one or both of Lawton and Wichita Falls. This is being choreographed, and it's not yet time for the staged sacrifice of another Texas or Oklahoma point.


I will give AA this, they were expanding like crazy before the pandemic. They were taking a lot of chances on smaller markets in the US. I guess its no surprise some didnt work.

They wont drop LAW for sure. Too much military traffic. SPS may pretty thin as it is, but AA kept all small Texas markets within a two hour drive of DFW (SPS, ACT, GGG, and TYR). Those would have been the ones I thought would go.


Yeah I figured most of the intra-texas flights would stop (ABI, SPS, SJT, TYR, ACT). ABI, SPS and SJT all stick out to me because none of these markets can support E40/45 service as it is, much less E70 service. Also, all of these markets are 2.5 hours or less from DFW. AA needs to trim these markets before leaving markets such as DBQ and ROW!!

Sometimes, it is easier (and cheaper) to park overnight at an outstation, than it is to wrestle planes all over the place in the morning with tugs. Only so many hard stands.
The close-ins come in as a second wave in the morning, after the RON departures.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:00 am

NWAESC wrote:
freakyrat wrote:

At SBN all AA flights are worked by Corporate Wings for both the counter and below wing. I'm not positive but the DL and UA flights are worked by the former DGS with the UA counter worked by ZW and DL counter by DL.


No mainline DL employees at SBN. NW had employees there prior to filing BK...


I do not know who the counter people are at DL at SBN. I know United's are probably Air Wisconsin or Skywest. DL counter people must have at one time been Comair .
 
atrude777
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Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:00 am

freakyrat wrote:
At SBN all AA flights are worked by Corporate Wings for both the counter and below wing. I'm not positive but the DL and UA flights are worked by the former DGS with the UA counter worked by ZW and DL counter by DL.


UGE (United Ground Express) ground handles for United and American in South Bend.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
atrude777
Posts: 4457
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:06 am

FlyingElvii wrote:

Them you understand EXACTLY what I am talking about. I was in a one EAS airline college town, likely not far away from you.


Marion, Illinois?! Hahaha

MWA sounds a lot like SPI, J31 station for TWE and equally saw TWA STL diversions!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 1239
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:11 am

atrude777 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:

Them you understand EXACTLY what I am talking about. I was in a one EAS airline college town, likely not far away from you.


Marion, Illinois?! Hahaha

MWA sounds a lot like SPI, J31 station for TWE and equally saw TWA STL diversions!

Alex

LAF
 
FLYSPI
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:37 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:55 am

atrude777 wrote:
FlyingElvii wrote:

Them you understand EXACTLY what I am talking about. I was in a one EAS airline college town, likely not far away from you.


Marion, Illinois?! Hahaha

MWA sounds a lot like SPI, J31 station for TWE and equally saw TWA STL diversions!

Alex

I was in SPI.. absolutely , I remember checking flifo and seeing a fair amount of diversions heading your way back then. Ahh the good old days!
Just joined, but been visiting A.net since 1998
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slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 5064
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:00 am

AA chose alot of small airports where they are the sole carrier or a main carrier. This is definitely to get those airports and communities to write into their reps to help airlines more. A hale mary. I think if the government doesnt extend help, AA and all the legacies will look to cut alot more then this.
 
HVNandrew
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:05 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:57 am

enplaned wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

I don't think it's going to roll that way. You can right now start thinking of LGA/JFK as Greater Stamford International Airport.


Stamford? HPN much closer.


HPN is very unlikely to be more than it is - effective cap of 1.5-2mm pax per year. That neuters it from a competitive standpoint. A lot of folks aren't even aware of its existence.

I think that's a bit of a rough analysis of HPN. Agreed that it is unlikely to expand further, but HPN is actually a great option if you're going to Florida or someplace where connecting through ATL makes sense. Pre-Covid B6 had a pretty healthy operation there to its major Florida airports and DL was 7-8x daily to ATL, about half of which was mainline. AA has a decent southbound operation as well to DCA and CLT. If you're flying in that direction, for southwestern CT, Westchester and Putnam counties HPN is an excellent alternative to LGA/JFK. The traffic in the area extending from HPN down to the NYC airports can be absolutely brutal. And I'd argue that everyone in those areas knows HPN exists; if you're not from the area, maybe not, but it draws on the local market.

Not surprised to see HVN cut. It's really squished in between LGA/JFK/HPN on one hand and BDL on the other. Yes, there's a large local market, but if the market is not willing to pay a premium for the service, it can be effectively served by the aforementioned options without the cost of operating an additional station; I think that has been the issue there for years.
 
freakyrat
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Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:24 pm

atrude777 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
At SBN all AA flights are worked by Corporate Wings for both the counter and below wing. I'm not positive but the DL and UA flights are worked by the former DGS with the UA counter worked by ZW and DL counter by DL.


UGE (United Ground Express) ground handles for United and American in South Bend.

Alex


It's been about a year since I was up there. I know Corporate Wings got the initial contract from American. AA has been there for 3 years now.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: Confirmed AA service suspensions

Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:21 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
jholio wrote:

Stillwater is not surprising at all. That is a once daily EMB-140 flight that relies on college sport and college business traffic, neither of which are going to happen this school year. Stillwater has a bus connection to Tulsa and most students are from OKC or Tulsa anyways and would drive back to those cities to fly.


I'm surprised they still serve BOTH Lawton and Wichita Falls...30 miles apart...both see about 2x daily on ERD/ER4 to DFW right now, that's it. I get the military traffic, but this one seems ripe for consolidation to one airport over the other.

They are actually just over 50 miles apart. Not to say that your point isn't valid.
 
bigred10k
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:35 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:14 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
AA chose alot of small airports where they are the sole carrier or a main carrier. This is definitely to get those airports and communities to write into their reps to help airlines more. A hale mary. I think if the government doesnt extend help, AA and all the legacies will look to cut alot more then this.



Bing!

As it applies to the Tri-State Airport, the following statement was released by the city of Huntington's Mayor:

“Although I am not pleased with this suspension, airline officials have assured me this decision was made primarily because they are awaiting for federal lawmakers to provide an extension of the Payroll Support Program,” Williams said. “This program, which expires Sept. 30, not only requires airlines to avoid furloughs of employees, but it also ensures the continuation of air service to smaller regional airports such as Huntington Tri-State. This underscores the importance for Congress to act swiftly on an extension that will help the airline industry as it continues to deal with the fallout of the COVID-19 pandemic. I trust that our congressional delegation will continue to support Huntington Tri-State Airport in this matter and convey the message to their counterparts in the Senate and House that quality air service is critical to economic development in our region.”

Full article here:

https://www.herald-dispatch.com/news/am ... 0bc52.html
 
atrude777
Posts: 4457
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:16 pm

freakyrat wrote:
It's been about a year since I was up there. I know Corporate Wings got the initial contract from American. AA has been there for 3 years now.


UGE got the American Airlines contract in SBN I believe late 2019, was fairly recent.

UGE has been ground handling in SBN for United at least 2017.

However yes, the American contract is fairly recent. Barely a year if even that!

I actually didn’t know about Corporate Wings, I had thought it was Skywest or Envoy themselves!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
kavok
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Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:58 pm

It will be interesting to see what UA and DL do. The cynical side of me wonders if UA/DL would find more benefit in AA not getting more government assistance, as opposed to the benefit they’d receive from everyone getting additional assistance.

It will become obvious where everyone stands soon, in whether or not there is push from DL/UA for additional assistance. Not saying DL/UA won’t drop markets, but their drops may be quieter and not in a way that appeals for more government cash.
 
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NWAESC
Posts: 1691
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Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:10 pm

DL already dropped over 20 markets via DOT exemptions. If memory serves, only 4-5 (maybe 6?) are showing availability. My guess is the rest are gone for good.
"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
 
jb1087xna
Posts: 534
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:11 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:33 am

MLIAA wrote:
DBQ is also a very expensive airport to fly from. Fares are ALWAYS higher than the surrounding airports. ORD is only about 2.5-3 hours away too, so by the time you drive 90 minutes to CID or MLI or MSN you might as well drive to ORD.

(MSN also has a decent 4 lane highway now from DBQ)


Driving 90 minutes is the same as driving 180 minutes?
 
CIDFlyer
Posts: 2190
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:19 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:36 am

MLIAA wrote:
alo2yyz wrote:
NWAESC wrote:
DBQ is an interesting one; it has a (relatively) decent catchment area, and has several airports just far enough away to not be practical (eg CID, LSE, MSN).


Eh. The thing about DBQ is that of the metro areas around there, it is by far the smallest. Aside from a John Deere plant, there's not much going on. With business and university travel next to nil, this doesn't surprise me. DBQ is well-connected by four-lane expressways to ALO, CID, and MLI (not that I would want to do it in the winter). LSE and MSN are rather unpleasant drives (winding two lanes) from DBQ.

Pretty much everyone I know in the area drives to RST, CID, or MLI for domestic flights, regardless of if it's business or personal travel. Many at LSE go to MSP. The fares out of LSE/ALO/DBQ are high, and the flights are infrequent (but somewhat better at LSE than the other two). The three smaller airports suffer from a self-fulfilling prophecy of no demand + limited frequency because of high fares, and high fares + limited supply because of no demand.


DBQ is also a very expensive airport to fly from. Fares are ALWAYS higher than the surrounding airports. ORD is only about 2.5-3 hours away too, so by the time you drive 90 minutes to CID or MLI or MSN you might as well drive to ORD.

(MSN also has a decent 4 lane highway now from DBQ)


ORD would be a pain though as Hwy 20 is a rickety 2 lane road through NW Illinois not to mention you have toll roads and parking at ORD. CID is probably the most convenient to get to it’s all 4 lanes and it’s basically 45 minutes from DBQ to the outskirts of Cedar Rapids (Marion) and you can bypass around the city to the airport. CID also has a lot of Allegiant flights (7 destinations) and also Frontier to DEN. MSN and MLI would be other alternatives however you do have to fight some city traffic in MSN and for MLI it can be a mess crossing the Mississippi on I74.
 
kavok
Posts: 923
Joined: Wed May 11, 2016 10:12 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:04 am

jb1087xna wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
DBQ is also a very expensive airport to fly from. Fares are ALWAYS higher than the surrounding airports. ORD is only about 2.5-3 hours away too, so by the time you drive 90 minutes to CID or MLI or MSN you might as well drive to ORD.

(MSN also has a decent 4 lane highway now from DBQ)


Driving 90 minutes is the same as driving 180 minutes?


In many ways, yes.

Basically, when the differential is only down to 90 minutes, and you are driving a distance anyways, it is often more desirable to drive the extra 90 minutes at that point to get a non-stop flight somewhere. If you have to connect somewhere by flying from one of the closer small airports, the 90minute drive savings probably isn’t worth it.
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:16 am

jb1087xna wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
DBQ is also a very expensive airport to fly from. Fares are ALWAYS higher than the surrounding airports. ORD is only about 2.5-3 hours away too, so by the time you drive 90 minutes to CID or MLI or MSN you might as well drive to ORD.

(MSN also has a decent 4 lane highway now from DBQ)


Driving 90 minutes is the same as driving 180 minutes?

People are very irrational. 90 Minutes is the same as 180, 1 hour on an interstate os preferable to 40 minutes on surface roads, driving 2.5 hrs each way is worth it to save $50 on airfare....
 
ScottB
Posts: 7310
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:46 am

airlineworker wrote:
The politicians never supported HVN, they feel BDL is the only commercial airport the state needs. One look at a state map shows just the opposite, being a few miles from Massachusetts does not fit the description of an airport for,the entire state. New London-Groton use PVD, Fairfield uses HPN.


Connecticut is a tiny state geographically. Groton and New London are barely over an hour from BDL and it's all freeway. Even Bridgeport (in Fairfield) is right at an hour from BDL. Danbury (also in Fairfield) is barely over an hour from BDL but a lot closer to HPN. And Groton/New London would still use PVD for lower fares vs. HVN, and the drive from Danbury to HVN is on a winding two-lane road for about half the distance. Most of Fairfield would still use the NYC airports for better prices and more choices.
 
airlineworker
Posts: 292
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:11 am

ScottB wrote:
airlineworker wrote:
The politicians never supported HVN, they feel BDL is the only commercial airport the state needs. One look at a state map shows just the opposite, being a few miles from Massachusetts does not fit the description of an airport for,the entire state. New London-Groton use PVD, Fairfield uses HPN.


Connecticut is a tiny state geographically. Groton and New London are barely over an hour from BDL and it's all freeway. Even Bridgeport (in Fairfield) is right at an hour from BDL. Danbury (also in Fairfield) is barely over an hour from BDL but a lot closer to HPN. And Groton/New London would still use PVD for lower fares vs. HVN, and the drive from Danbury to HVN is on a winding two-lane road for about half the distance. Most of Fairfield would still use the NYC airports for better prices and more choices.


Groton and New London is 15 miles closer to PVD straight on I-95, BDL requires changing roads. Bridgeport is 25-30 minutes to HVN. Fairfield is more than one hour away from BDL, in the past BDL would place posters saying "come home to Bradley" when HPN is a short drive away. I agree Danbury is not in Tweeds catchment area, but there is much of southern CT that HVN would be the closest airport.
 
freakyrat
Posts: 2214
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:37 am

atrude777 wrote:
freakyrat wrote:
It's been about a year since I was up there. I know Corporate Wings got the initial contract from American. AA has been there for 3 years now.


UGE got the American Airlines contract in SBN I believe late 2019, was fairly recent.

UGE has been ground handling in SBN for United at least 2017.

However yes, the American contract is fairly recent. Barely a year if even that!

I actually didn’t know about Corporate Wings, I had thought it was Skywest or Envoy themselves!

Alex


The original contract was for two years just to get AA going. AA isn't going anywhere. Their loads even with Covid are fair enough and Zimmer Biomet has some contract flying with them. Being in Warsaw and half way in between FWA and SBN I would assume they can now fly out of either airport on their contract. When Covid hit UA and DL cut back on SBN flying but AA did not and then only dropped the afternoon flight to CLT.

For Delta at SBN. That is still handled by DGS.
 
Chuska
Posts: 503
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 4:59 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:19 pm

Qoute Flying elvii, remark #247:
*** Wasn’t the same true for Roswell? I seem to recall Boutique or some other small operator running that a few years back, before AA came n with the jets? ***

I think you were reffering to ROW being on EAS? ROW had been served by Mesa's Beech 1900 independent hub at ABQ until 2007 when Mesa discontinued that operation. Mesa was not receiving EAS subsidies. Roswell city managers then arranged for a revenue guarantee for AA* RJ's to DFW which became an instant success. ROW has only been served by AA* ever since. PHX flights were added in 2016 after the AA/US merger. Before March, Roswell had 3/DFW and 1/PHX flight, all SkyWest CRJ-700's. I proudly helped open the ROW station on Sep 5, 2007 and needless to say I am now in shock.
 
nickdelp
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:53 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:02 pm

They Just announced SUX is getting a reprieve for 90 days. So they are keeping there service for now. Wonder if this has happened at any of other of the city’s
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:56 am

kavok wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:
MLIAA wrote:
DBQ is also a very expensive airport to fly from. Fares are ALWAYS higher than the surrounding airports. ORD is only about 2.5-3 hours away too, so by the time you drive 90 minutes to CID or MLI or MSN you might as well drive to ORD.

(MSN also has a decent 4 lane highway now from DBQ)


Driving 90 minutes is the same as driving 180 minutes?


In many ways, yes.

Basically, when the differential is only down to 90 minutes, and you are driving a distance anyways, it is often more desirable to drive the extra 90 minutes at that point to get a non-stop flight somewhere. If you have to connect somewhere by flying from one of the closer small airports, the 90minute drive savings probably isn’t worth it.


That's absurd logic. As an OKC resident we used to fly out of DFW if it saved a few dollars because "only 3 hours" right? Did it once and will never do it again. I and many others would gladly pay for the convenience of not having to drive 6 hours.
 
joeblow10
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:58 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:22 am

9w748capt wrote:
kavok wrote:
jb1087xna wrote:

Driving 90 minutes is the same as driving 180 minutes?


In many ways, yes.

Basically, when the differential is only down to 90 minutes, and you are driving a distance anyways, it is often more desirable to drive the extra 90 minutes at that point to get a non-stop flight somewhere. If you have to connect somewhere by flying from one of the closer small airports, the 90minute drive savings probably isn’t worth it.


That's absurd logic. As an OKC resident we used to fly out of DFW if it saved a few dollars because "only 3 hours" right? Did it once and will never do it again. I and many others would gladly pay for the convenience of not having to drive 6 hours.


90 minutes is very different from 3 hours one way. I would absolutely drive 90-120 minutes for a nonstop over a connection, and I know many feel the same way - that’s the core of business models like G4, grab from all the surrounding catchment areas within a reasonable drive time. Personally, 2 hours is about where I draw the line. But maybe not for all
 
nickdelp
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:53 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:47 am

https://www.siouxlandproud.com/news/loc ... n-october/

American delayed the suspension of service in SUX for 90 days.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7310
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:24 am

Aliqiout wrote:
People are very irrational. 90 Minutes is the same as 180, 1 hour on an interstate os preferable to 40 minutes on surface roads, driving 2.5 hrs each way is worth it to save $50 on airfare....


Well, that $50 ends up being $200 if you're taking a family of four. And frequently it's not just $50, but more like $500. As others have pointed out, sometimes that 2.5 hours of driving is worth it to be able to go non-stop. If you're flying to/from somewhere like SWF or HVN it's probably worth it to just drive (or take a limo) to one of the NYC airports for better schedule choices and less risk of getting stuck in Philly overnight.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:00 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
kavok wrote:

In many ways, yes.

Basically, when the differential is only down to 90 minutes, and you are driving a distance anyways, it is often more desirable to drive the extra 90 minutes at that point to get a non-stop flight somewhere. If you have to connect somewhere by flying from one of the closer small airports, the 90minute drive savings probably isn’t worth it.


That's absurd logic. As an OKC resident we used to fly out of DFW if it saved a few dollars because "only 3 hours" right? Did it once and will never do it again. I and many others would gladly pay for the convenience of not having to drive 6 hours.


90 minutes is very different from 3 hours one way. I would absolutely drive 90-120 minutes for a nonstop over a connection, and I know many feel the same way - that’s the core of business models like G4, grab from all the surrounding catchment areas within a reasonable drive time. Personally, 2 hours is about where I draw the line. But maybe not for all


Well yeah, there are always bargain seekers that will drive for hours to save a buck. But there are also many that value their time. It seems there are an inordinate amount of posters here who don't understand the simple concept that time = money. Which isn't surprising given the overwhelming teenage presence here.
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:14 pm

9w748capt wrote:
joeblow10 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

That's absurd logic. As an OKC resident we used to fly out of DFW if it saved a few dollars because "only 3 hours" right? Did it once and will never do it again. I and many others would gladly pay for the convenience of not having to drive 6 hours.


90 minutes is very different from 3 hours one way. I would absolutely drive 90-120 minutes for a nonstop over a connection, and I know many feel the same way - that’s the core of business models like G4, grab from all the surrounding catchment areas within a reasonable drive time. Personally, 2 hours is about where I draw the line. But maybe not for all


Well yeah, there are always bargain seekers that will drive for hours to save a buck. But there are also many that value their time. It seems there are an inordinate amount of posters here who don't understand the simple concept that time = money. Which isn't surprising given the overwhelming teenage presence here.


Yet this somewhat condescending comment disregards that many families will gladly drive to save money because the savings can actually be substantial. If a family lives in Allentown, PA why would they not drive to PHL or EWR and save likely hundreds of dollars? I don't even think that would be classified as "bargain seekers" but just being smart with their money for their particular situation. Additionally if your closest airport is a small one I would wager that in the end you would save time driving to a larger airport and just taking a nonstop vs. using the smaller airport and having to take a connection...
 
Aliqiout
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:10 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:02 am

ScottB wrote:
Aliqiout wrote:
People are very irrational. 90 Minutes is the same as 180, 1 hour on an interstate os preferable to 40 minutes on surface roads, driving 2.5 hrs each way is worth it to save $50 on airfare....


Well, that $50 ends up being $200 if you're taking a family of four. And frequently it's not just $50, but more like $500. As others have pointed out, sometimes that 2.5 hours of driving is worth it to be able to go non-stop. If you're flying to/from somewhere like SWF or HVN it's probably worth it to just drive (or take a limo) to one of the NYC airports for better schedule choices and less risk of getting stuck in Philly overnight.

There certainly are times a 2.5 hour drive can make sense, but even if you are saving $200 and don't put a value on your time you are likely losing money on that five hours of driving (gas, wear and tear on your car, much higher parking cost at a bigger city airport, ext...)
 
DaCubbyBearBar
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:31 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:15 am

I know that these are small cities, and it sucks to lose service, but since February I would be interested to see what the load factors and fares have been. I would figure that some of these runs are hemorrhaging cash.
I am me and no one else...so my opinions are mine
 
airlineworker
Posts: 292
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:20 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:48 am

DaCubbyBearBar wrote:
I know that these are small cities, and it sucks to lose service, but since February I would be interested to see what the load factors and fares have been. I would figure that some of these runs are hemorrhaging cash.


HVN was on track for another yearly increase in passengers. Jet service started in 2017 with CRJ-200's, then CRJ-700's and then E-175's. Out of the 15 cities that were cut, HVN has the largest population base to draw from.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 828
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:49 pm

I can't understand why someone would think that a city is "owed" air service. Should Wal Mart be forced to open stores in really small towns that might not be financially viable? if you're a business with people that travel and decide to locate HQ operations in small towns due to favorable cost factors why should you be guaranteed local commercial air service, unless you're willing to pay a carrier for a certain number of seats. Same for someone that has to fly. There's a reason that I don't live in Yeehaw Junction Florida as MCO/PBI are both 2 hours away albeit I'm sure the rent is cheap.
 
ScottB
Posts: 7310
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:50 pm

Aliqiout wrote:
There certainly are times a 2.5 hour drive can make sense, but even if you are saving $200 and don't put a value on your time you are likely losing money on that five hours of driving (gas, wear and tear on your car, much higher parking cost at a bigger city airport, ext...)


Sometimes "put[ting] a value on your time" also includes not getting stuck overnight or delayed for several hours at a hub airport.
 
Ishrion
Posts: 3588
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:17 am

Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:47 pm

AA won't drop Joplin and Roswell along with Sioux City: https://www.dallasnews.com/business/air ... -targeted/

Though AA still plans to drop JLN/SUX if approved by the DOT.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21767
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Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:01 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
I can't understand why someone would think that a city is "owed" air service. Should Wal Mart be forced to open stores in really small towns that might not be financially viable? if you're a business with people that travel and decide to locate HQ operations in small towns due to favorable cost factors why should you be guaranteed local commercial air service, unless you're willing to pay a carrier for a certain number of seats. Same for someone that has to fly. There's a reason that I don't live in Yeehaw Junction Florida as MCO/PBI are both 2 hours away albeit I'm sure the rent is cheap.

Part of deregulation was a promise of subsidies if air service was lost.

Lightsaber
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
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lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 21767
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Re: UPDATE: AA Goes Forward with Suspending Service to 15 Small Airports in October

Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:05 pm

joeblow10 wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
kavok wrote:

In many ways, yes.

Basically, when the differential is only down to 90 minutes, and you are driving a distance anyways, it is often more desirable to drive the extra 90 minutes at that point to get a non-stop flight somewhere. If you have to connect somewhere by flying from one of the closer small airports, the 90minute drive savings probably isn’t worth it.


That's absurd logic. As an OKC resident we used to fly out of DFW if it saved a few dollars because "only 3 hours" right? Did it once and will never do it again. I and many others would gladly pay for the convenience of not having to drive 6 hours.


90 minutes is very different from 3 hours one way. I would absolutely drive 90-120 minutes for a nonstop over a connection, and I know many feel the same way - that’s the core of business models like G4, grab from all the surrounding catchment areas within a reasonable drive time. Personally, 2 hours is about where I draw the line. But maybe not for all

I agree with you. If a substantial cost savings is also present. I'll do 3 hours. I've done 4 hours, with family, but that was to save $1,000/person for a full minivan and there was a midpoint we wanted to stop at anyway.

Lightsaber
5 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
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