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UA857
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How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:50 pm

Does anyone know how many 747-200F/400F/8Fs were built without a side cargo door. I know that all 747-100F/300Fs have a SCD. But how many 747-200F/400F/8Fs were built without a SCD and where only restricted to nose loading?

Examples:

747-132SF with side cargo door but no nose door


747-273C without side cargo door


747-245F/SCD with both nose and side cargo door
Last edited by UA857 on Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
cedarjet
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:53 pm

EP-ICC for Iran Air (although I think it’s a 747-2J9F not a 747-286F — using the Iranian AF/Saha Air customer code, not Iran Air) does not have a SCD
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Viper911
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:36 pm

UA857 wrote:
Does anyone know how many 747-200F/400F/8Fs were built without a side cargo door. I know that all 747-100F/300Fs have a SCD. But how many 747-200F/400F/8Fs were built without a SCD and where only restricted to nose loading?

Examples:

747-132SF with side cargo door but no nose door


747-273C without side cargo door


747-245F/SCD with both nose and side cargo door



According to a thread from couple of years ago:

- L/N 168, 747-230F for Lufthansa
- L/N 209, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 211, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 273, 747-273C for World Airways

Here's a link to the topic, look for reply 10 by 747classic for some nice info.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1372613

Viper911
 
kaitak
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:00 pm

Very interesting, I never knew it was possible to get a 747 freighter without a SCD. It must have lengthened the time for, and reduced the efficiency of, turnarounds.
 
a300
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:10 pm

cedarjet wrote:
EP-ICC for Iran Air (although I think it’s a 747-2J9F not a 747-286F — using the Iranian AF/Saha Air customer code, not Iran Air) does not have a SCD


You are correct. The aircraft, and its two sister ships, were ordered by and delivered directly to the Iranian Air Force. EP-ICC was in true Iran Air service at the time decommissioning (as opposed to SAHA, which is the "civilian" arm of the air air force). The other two are in active service with the air force. Their flights are under military call signs or the civilian ones of Caspian and SAHA.
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UA857
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:24 pm

Were any 744F/748F built without an SCD?
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:36 pm

It seems really strange that any airline would want a 747 without the side cargo door. Thank you for bringing this up. Due to the need of sliding underneath the upper deck, there is a height limit on cargo being loaded through the nose door. Not having a side cargo door wastes a lot of useable volume in the rear 2/3rds of the plane.
 
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leleko747
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:13 pm

JAL Cargo had JA8132 (B747-246F) without SCD.

If I remember well, the only freighter 747s without SCDs were early built 200 versions.
Convertible B747-200s could also have nose cargo door and no SCD.
The very first 747 freighter was D-ABYE for Lufthansa, a B747-230F, and it also had nose door only, without SCD.
All converted 747s (pax to cargo) have SCDs and no nose door.

No 747-100 was built as a pure freighter, only conversions, that's why all freighter 747-100s are 100SF... therefore, no nose door, SCD only.
That also applies to the B747-300.

Freighter 400s and 8s have nose door and SCD.
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
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UA857
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:00 pm



Is this the first 747F to have an SCD?
 
Max Q
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:16 pm

I believe all those nose door only freighters had side doors added later
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
COSPN
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:07 am

Yes big problem is it limits the height... but great for loading super long things
 
69bug
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:23 am

I remember the JAL 747.. was working with a ground handler which served JAL. The cargo reservations dept would accept bookings based on the normal 74F aircraft and they worked with volume limits as well as weight limits. They would usually know when the no-SCD aircraft was due but ocassionally there would be a last-minute change and we would have to leave stuff behind.

JAL aircraft were in great condition, all the loading drives were in top condition. Worst were Flying Tigers..A lot of time wasted freeing the doorside rollers.

bug
 
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:27 am

a300 wrote:
cedarjet wrote:
EP-ICC for Iran Air (although I think it’s a 747-2J9F not a 747-286F — using the Iranian AF/Saha Air customer code, not Iran Air) does not have a SCD


You are correct. The aircraft, and its two sister ships, were ordered by and delivered directly to the Iranian Air Force. EP-ICC was in true Iran Air service at the time decommissioning (as opposed to SAHA, which is the "civilian" arm of the air air force). The other two are in active service with the air force. Their flights are under military call signs or the civilian ones of Caspian and SAHA.


Northwest Airlines bought 747-2j9F that was ordered by Iran from Boeing, registration 5-8117, but was embargoed due to the Irainian Revolution. It had both a nose door and side door. Northwest registered as N630US. Airliners photo numbers 0505800 0218221 as I can't down load them. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Ziyulu
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:36 am

Are there any cargo planes without a side door and nose door?
 
Noshow
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:08 am

Yes look at all those corona makeshift freighters. From Embraers to the Hifly A380 they are used for cargo without having nose or side cargo doors. Just passenger cabin doors and the lower deck cargo doors to load stuff. Cabins typically will be filled with cardboard boxes full of medical supplies or facemasks and lightweight cargo.

In Germany we had domestic air mail runs at night. They used passenger airplanes with standard seats and just put on heavy textile seat covers with huge pouches to transport letters and mail bags at night in the cabin. The next morning those planes would carry passengers again. Today this is mostly done by truck networks on the ground.
 
TriStar500
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:45 am

To my mind, some DC-9's were operated as freighters without a SCD in the US, Emery Air being one of those operators.
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LTEN11
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 10:41 am

Ziyulu wrote:
Are there any cargo planes without a side door and nose door?


Airborne Express operated quite a few DC-9's and I think some DC-8's, without a main deck cargo door. They had purpose built pods/containers which fit through the passenger doors and were loaded with a ramp rather than a hoist.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:47 pm

TriStar500 wrote:
To my mind, some DC-9's were operated as freighters without a SCD in the US, Emery Air being one of those operators.


That was an Airborne Express specialty using special C cans that rolled through the pax door.. DC-8, DC-9 and 762s. After being bought by DHL the 762s had cargo doors cut and installed.

Surprisingly, no DC-9 freighter retrofit was ever approved, so all the -9Fs you see flying today in the auto parts runs were factory delivered as such, even if they spent most of their lives hauling regular passengers. The MD-80 freighter conversion is a different issue (and yes I know TECHNICALLY they are -9s up to the -88 but I'm referring to the original -non JT8D-200 powered birds)
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tjwgrr
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:10 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
Are there any cargo planes without a side door and nose door?


C-130, C-17, C-141, and on and on..... but that's for a DIFFERENT forum. ;-)
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
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747classic
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:06 pm

Interesting, I was not aware that the four (4) IIAF 747-2J9F aircraft (5-8113, -8114, -8115 and -8116) were delivered without the optional side cargo door (SCD)

L/N 343, C/N 21514, 747-2J9F, 5-8116, KBFI, clearly visible is the missing SCD.

Image

Original uploaded by EX/ZX at flickr, see : https://www.flickr.com/photos/154191970 ... 648683364/

Most probably the 5th assembled , but not delivered 747-2J9F (L/N 400, C/N 21688, 5-8117, IIAF ntu), first flight 9/17/79 was also original assembled without SCD.
The aircraft was, after all legal procedures were finished, purchased by Northwest Airlines (N630US) and before delivery (9/15/83) modified to NWA specifications, incl. a SCD.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
reltney
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:09 pm

Viper911 wrote:
UA857 wrote:
Does anyone know how many 747-200F/400F/8Fs were built without a side cargo door. I know that all 747-100F/300Fs have a SCD. But how many 747-200F/400F/8Fs were built without a SCD and where only restricted to nose loading?

Examples:

747-132SF with side cargo door but no nose door


747-273C without side cargo door


747-245F/SCD with both nose and side cargo door



According to a thread from couple of years ago:

- L/N 168, 747-230F for Lufthansa
- L/N 209, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 211, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 273, 747-273C for World Airways

Here's a link to the topic, look for reply 10 by 747classic for some nice info.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1372613

Viper911



Surprised everyone missed this one...

It’s a former Delta bird and the cargo door was a mod...
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OUTLAW KNIVES.

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reltney
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:11 pm

747classic wrote:
Interesting, I was not aware that the four (4) IIAF 747-2J9F aircraft (5-8113, -8114, -8115 and -8116) were delivered without the optional side cargo door (SCD)

L/N 343, C/N 21514, 747-2J9F, 5-8116, KBFI, clearly visible is the missing SCD.

Image

Original uploaded by EX/ZX at flickr, see : https://www.flickr.com/photos/154191970 ... 648683364/

Most probably the 5th assembled , but not delivered 747-2J9F (L/N 400, C/N 21688, 5-8117, IIAF ntu), first flight 9/17/79 was also original assembled without SCD.
The aircraft was, after all legal procedures were finished, purchased by Northwest Airlines (N630US) and before delivery (9/15/83) modified to NWA specifications, incl. a SCD.



You can really see the TWA background they have with the cheat line. Not quite in TWA style but the tapered nose to the wedge on the back of the stripe tells the story. Many TWA personal were involved in IRANs Boeing operation.
Knives don't kill people. People with knives kill people.
OUTLAW KNIVES.

I am a pilot, therefore I envy no one...
 
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747classic
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:12 pm

leleko747 wrote:
JAL Cargo had JA8132 (B747-246F) without SCD.



I tried to find a left hand side picture of JA8123, without the SCD, but at all the pictures I could find, JA8123 was already modified with a SCD.

To update my 747 archive, i'm searching for early photo's (clearly pictured without the SCD) of the following aircraft (via replies in this thread or by PM) :

L/N 243, C/N 21034, B747-246F, JA8123, basic number R6003, variable number RR261, JAL, delivered 09-17-1974

L/N 400, C/N 21668, B747-2J9F, N630US, basic number R6015, variable number RR005 IIAF(NTU) / NWA, stored at Boeing Field / Paine Field (or another location) from 09-17-1979 to 09-15-1983 with registraion N1288E.
Note : a picture before modification and delivery to NWA.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:50 pm

NWAROOSTER wrote:
Northwest Airlines bought 747-2j9F that was ordered by Iran from Boeing, registration 5-8117, but was embargoed due to the Irainian Revolution. It had both a nose door and side door. Northwest registered as N630US. Airliners photo numbers 0505800 0218221 as I can't down load them. :old:

I feel silly asking the question, but why did you need to download them? Are you not satisfied with [TWOID] ?

I realize they are only thumbnails, but there is a also hot link to "View Large" if people are genuinely interested.



I feel sometimes as if half the people on the forums are simply unaware there is a photo database on their doorstep.
e.g. threads saying I don't like XYZ's new colorscheme, but leaving you to guess what they are actually talking about.
I firmly believe "A picture is worth a thousand words".
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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leleko747
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:32 pm

747classic wrote:
leleko747 wrote:
JAL Cargo had JA8132 (B747-246F) without SCD.



I tried to find a left hand side picture of JA8123, without the SCD, but at all the pictures I could find, JA8123 was already modified with a SCD.

To update my 747 archive, i'm searching for early photo's (clearly pictured without the SCD) of the following aircraft (via replies in this thread or by PM) :

L/N 243, C/N 21034, B747-246F, JA8123, basic number R6003, variable number RR261, JAL, delivered 09-17-1974

L/N 400, C/N 21668, B747-2J9F, N630US, basic number R6015, variable number RR005 IIAF(NTU) / NWA, stored at Boeing Field / Paine Field (or another location) from 09-17-1979 to 09-15-1983 with registraion N1288E.
Note : a picture before modification and delivery to NWA.


Hi!
Actually JA8132, as I wrote before, is the one without SCD.
Take a look: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdxNdoCVoAEeKFO.jpg:large

JA8123 indeed have the SCD and nose door.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EYW2W_JU8AA8G0v.jpg:large

You probably misread my post and switched regs :bouncy:

JA8132, the one without SCD, was later operated by Kalitta Air as N707CK, and Kalitta didn't add the door either.
See: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/6427237
I wonder when people will understand:
Embraer 190 or simply E190, not ERJ-190. E-Jets are NOT ERJs!
Boeing 747-8, not Boeing 747-800. Same goes for 787.
Airbus A320, not Airbus 320.
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NWAROOSTER
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:32 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
NWAROOSTER wrote:
Northwest Airlines bought 747-2j9F that was ordered by Iran from Boeing, registration 5-8117, but was embargoed due to the Irainian Revolution. It had both a nose door and side door. Northwest registered as N630US. Airliners photo numbers 0505800 0218221 as I can't down load them. :old:

I feel silly asking the question, but why did you need to download them? Are you not satisfied with [TWOID] ?

I realize they are only thumbnails, but there is a also hot link to "View Large" if people are genuinely interested.



I feel sometimes as if half the people on the forums are simply unaware there is a photo database on their doorstep.
e.g. threads saying I don't like XYZ's new colorscheme, but leaving you to guess what they are actually talking about.
I firmly believe "A picture is worth a thousand words".

I used TWOID several times and it would not download the photographs. Maybe it was ESO, EQUIPMENT SMARTER THAN OPERATOR. There could have been something I did wrong or ANET did not work. I wanted to download the photos to show the A/C had both a nose door and side door. Of note the A/C was stored at Wichita with the power plants removed and cement blocks in their place. Pratt & Whitney supplied new power plants. I may be dumb but I am NOT stupid. :old:
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Viper911
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:28 pm

747classic wrote:
leleko747 wrote:
JAL Cargo had JA8132 (B747-246F) without SCD.



I tried to find a left hand side picture of JA8123, without the SCD, but at all the pictures I could find, JA8123 was already modified with a SCD.

To update my 747 archive, i'm searching for early photo's (clearly pictured without the SCD) of the following aircraft (via replies in this thread or by PM) :

L/N 243, C/N 21034, B747-246F, JA8123, basic number R6003, variable number RR261, JAL, delivered 09-17-1974

L/N 400, C/N 21668, B747-2J9F, N630US, basic number R6015, variable number RR005 IIAF(NTU) / NWA, stored at Boeing Field / Paine Field (or another location) from 09-17-1979 to 09-15-1983 with registraion N1288E.
Note : a picture before modification and delivery to NWA.



There is one photo of N1288E (side by side with the ill fated Helderberg) on Flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/paul-thallon/8671609581/in/photolist-edhgq2

Photo is from September 1980, and an SCD is clearly visible, are you sure it was rolled out only with the nose door and then converted?

Viper911
 
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747classic
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:07 am

Viper911 wrote:
747classic wrote:
leleko747 wrote:
JAL Cargo had JA8132 (B747-246F) without SCD.



I tried to find a left hand side picture of JA8123, without the SCD, but at all the pictures I could find, JA8123 was already modified with a SCD.

To update my 747 archive, i'm searching for early photo's (clearly pictured without the SCD) of the following aircraft (via replies in this thread or by PM) :

L/N 243, C/N 21034, B747-246F, JA8123, basic number R6003, variable number RR261, JAL, delivered 09-17-1974

L/N 400, C/N 21668, B747-2J9F, N630US, basic number R6015, variable number RR005 IIAF(NTU) / NWA, stored at Boeing Field / Paine Field (or another location) from 09-17-1979 to 09-15-1983 with registraion N1288E.
Note : a picture before modification and delivery to NWA.



There is one photo of N1288E (side by side with the ill fated Helderberg) on Flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/paul-thallon/8671609581/in/photolist-edhgq2

Photo is from September 1980, and an SCD is clearly visible, are you sure it was rolled out only with the nose door and then converted?

Viper911


Thx for finding that picture.
It confims that the last IIAF 747-2J9F was actually assembled with a SCD. Another gap in my 747 archive cleared. :white:

So the question of the thread starter seems to be almost completey answered (except for a clear picture to prove that JA8123 was originally delivered without SCD.)

The following aircraft seem to be factory delivered without a SCD :

- L/N 168, 747-230F for Lufthansa
- L/N 209, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 211, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 243, 747-246F for JAL ?
- L/N 273, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 315, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 319, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 340, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 343, 747-2J9F for IIAF

The side cargo door option was designed and certified at a cost of $15 million in 1973/1974 and installed (modification) at the two Sabena 747-100's during spring 1974. (L/N92 & 95)

The first factory built 747-200F with both the nose and the optional side cargo door installed was L/N 242 for Seabord World
The first factory built 747-200 combi with the side cargo door installed was L/N 250 a 747-233B(combi) for Air Canada
The first factory built 747-200C with the optional side cargo door was L/N 287 for Iraqi Airways

I did also a check for the first Air France 747-228F, L/N 245, N18815, this was built with a SCD.(you have to look really good !)
Image

Original uploaded by R.A. Scholefield, see : https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/registration/N18815
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:07 am

Very interesting thread....
The JL machine is 32, not 23....

Also, why have all the SCD’s got blocked out windows.... rather than just the sheet metal..?
I know there is one window , but the others are also clearly visible as being blocked out on a SCD.
 
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747classic
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:24 am

TUGMASTER wrote:
Very interesting thread....
The JL machine is 32, not 23....


Correct, I keep making the same mistake.
Very strange that a later built JAL 747F has been delivered without SCD.

Correct list :
- L/N 168, 747-230F for Lufthansa
- L/N 209, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 211, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 273, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 315, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 319, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 340, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 343, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 382, 747-246F for JAL

TUGMASTER wrote:
Also, why have all the SCD’s got blocked out windows.... rather than just the sheet metal..?
I know there is one window , but the others are also clearly visible as being blocked out on a SCD.


The SCD was first developed for retrofitting the Sabena 747-100combi's, for that reason windows were added, when operating in the full pax mode.
For all factory installed and later modified SCD's, up to and included the 747-400 series, the same door with windows was used. Some windows were blanked out at full freighters.
With the introduction of the 747-8F another (lighter) SCD was developed , with only one window.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Viper911
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:52 pm

747classic wrote:
Viper911 wrote:
747classic wrote:

I tried to find a left hand side picture of JA8123, without the SCD, but at all the pictures I could find, JA8123 was already modified with a SCD.

To update my 747 archive, i'm searching for early photo's (clearly pictured without the SCD) of the following aircraft (via replies in this thread or by PM) :

L/N 243, C/N 21034, B747-246F, JA8123, basic number R6003, variable number RR261, JAL, delivered 09-17-1974

L/N 400, C/N 21668, B747-2J9F, N630US, basic number R6015, variable number RR005 IIAF(NTU) / NWA, stored at Boeing Field / Paine Field (or another location) from 09-17-1979 to 09-15-1983 with registraion N1288E.
Note : a picture before modification and delivery to NWA.



There is one photo of N1288E (side by side with the ill fated Helderberg) on Flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/paul-thallon/8671609581/in/photolist-edhgq2

Photo is from September 1980, and an SCD is clearly visible, are you sure it was rolled out only with the nose door and then converted?

Viper911


Thx for finding that picture.
It confims that the last IIAF 747-2J9F was actually assembled with a SCD. Another gap in my 747 archive cleared. :white:

So the question of the thread starter seems to be almost completey answered (except for a clear picture to prove that JA8123 was originally delivered without SCD.)

The following aircraft seem to be factory delivered without a SCD :

- L/N 168, 747-230F for Lufthansa
- L/N 209, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 211, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 243, 747-246F for JAL ?
- L/N 273, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 315, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 319, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 340, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 343, 747-2J9F for IIAF

The side cargo door option was designed and certified at a cost of $15 million in 1973/1974 and installed (modification) at the two Sabena 747-100's during spring 1974. (L/N92 & 95)

The first factory built 747-200F with both the nose and the optional side cargo door installed was L/N 242 for Seabord World
The first factory built 747-200 combi with the side cargo door installed was L/N 250 a 747-233B(combi) for Air Canada
The first factory built 747-200C with the optional side cargo door was L/N 287 for Iraqi Airways

I did also a check for the first Air France 747-228F, L/N 245, N18815, this was built with a SCD.(you have to look really good !)
Image

Original uploaded by R.A. Scholefield, see : https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/registration/N18815



Just a small note, L/N 273 was an SP, L/N 237 was the 200C without an SCD.

Viper911
 
UA857
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:08 pm

How many 747Fs came with the self loading device? The only airline I know who had the self-loading device was Iraqi Airways on their 747-200C from what I know the USAF´s planned KC-25/C-25 (747-200F) and C-33/KC-33 (747-400F) was supposed to have the self-loading device.

Image
 
md83ftw
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:58 am

UA857 wrote:
How many 747Fs came with the self loading device? The only airline I know who had the self-loading device was Iraqi Airways on their 747-200C from what I know the USAF´s planned KC-25/C-25 (747-200F) and C-33/KC-33 (747-400F) was supposed to have the self-loading device.

Image


I had never heard of these self loaders! I'm reminded of the built in airstairs on some L1011 models, in that it seems awfully complex, heavy, and must have been a nightmare to maintain - but super cool! I don't know why I find these "optional extras" to be so fascinating...

My understanding from the pictures I've seen is that the device would be stored in the nose section during flight, would be unfurled from within upon landing, and could be used to service both the nose and side doors - at least I assume thats the case, I wouldn't want to be the handler tasked with turning that bad boy in through the SCD....

A link to more images of Boeing's "On Board Loader": https://www.ausairpower.net/loaders.html
 
Max Q
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:42 am

That self contained loader on the Iraqi 747 is interesting and quite clever engineering but you’re right it must have been incredibly heavy, inefficient and space wasting to cart around


Then again for the ‘unique’ uses that aircraft has been put to it’s probably been invaluable on occasion
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:59 am

md83ftw wrote:
UA857 wrote:
How many 747Fs came with the self loading device? The only airline I know who had the self-loading device was Iraqi Airways on their 747-200C from what I know the USAF´s planned KC-25/C-25 (747-200F) and C-33/KC-33 (747-400F) was supposed to have the self-loading device.

Image


I had never heard of these self loaders! I'm reminded of the built in airstairs on some L1011 models, in that it seems awfully complex, heavy, and must have been a nightmare to maintain - but super cool! I don't know why I find these "optional extras" to be so fascinating...

My understanding from the pictures I've seen is that the device would be stored in the nose section during flight, would be unfurled from within upon landing, and could be used to service both the nose and side doors - at least I assume thats the case, I wouldn't want to be the handler tasked with turning that bad boy in through the SCD....

A link to more images of Boeing's "On Board Loader": https://www.ausairpower.net/loaders.html


Wasn´t the planned KC-25 going to have the self-loading device as seen in this forum viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1449163?
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Thu Aug 20, 2020 8:24 am

747classic wrote:
TUGMASTER wrote:
Very interesting thread....
The JL machine is 32, not 23....


Correct, I keep making the same mistake.
Very strange that a later built JAL 747F has been delivered without SCD.

Correct list :
- L/N 168, 747-230F for Lufthansa
- L/N 209, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 211, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 273, 747-273C for World Airways
- L/N 315, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 319, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 340, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 343, 747-2J9F for IIAF
- L/N 382, 747-246F for JAL

TUGMASTER wrote:
Also, why have all the SCD’s got blocked out windows.... rather than just the sheet metal..?
I know there is one window , but the others are also clearly visible as being blocked out on a SCD.


The SCD was first developed for retrofitting the Sabena 747-100combi's, for that reason windows were added, when operating in the full pax mode.
For all factory installed and later modified SCD's, up to and included the 747-400 series, the same door with windows was used. Some windows were blanked out at full freighters.
With the introduction of the 747-8F another (lighter) SCD was developed , with only one window.



Here's 2 more for your list, EL AL's 4X-AXD and 4X-AXF both 200Cs L/N 272 and 327 respectively.

4X-AXD:


4X-AXF:


Viper911
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:40 am

Viper911 wrote:

Here's 2 more for your list, EL AL's 4X-AXD and 4X-AXF both 200Cs L/N 272 and 327 respectively.

Viper911


Thx for these additions.

Hopefully now without typos :

Provisional Listing of factory delivered 747 Freighter and Convertible aircraft, without a Side Cargo Door (SCD).


- L/N 168, 747-230F, Lufthansa, D-ABYE
- L/N 209, 747-273C, World Airways, N747WA
- L/N 211, 747-273C, World Airways, N748WA
- L/N 237, 747-273C, World Airways, N749WA
- L/N 242, 747-245F, Seaboard W A, N701SA, first freighter with factory installed SCD
- L/N 250, 747-233B(M), Air Canada, C-GAGA, first combi with factory installed SCD.
- L/N 272, 747-258C, El AL Israel Airlines, 4X-AXD
- L/N 287, 747-270C, Iraqi Airways, YI-AGN, first convertible with factory installed SCD
- L/N 315, 747-2J9F, IIAF, 5-8113
- L/N 319, 747-2J9F, IIAF, 5-8114
- L/N 327, 747-258C, El AL Israel Airlines, 4X-AXF
- L/N 340, 747-2J9F, IIAF, 5-8115
- L/N 343, 747-2J9F, IIAF, 5-8116
- L/N 382, 747-246F, JAL, JA8132

Note : In colour are the first aircraft of each subtype (-F, -C and -M) that were assembled with a factory installed SCD.

It still strikes me that the first JAL 747-246F (L/N 243, JA8123) seems to have been delivered with a SCD, the second (L/N 382, JA8132) without a SCD and the third (L/N 432, JA8144) again with a SCD.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
justplanesmart
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:40 am

L/N 242, the first 747-200F built with a side cargo door, was registered N701SW on delivery.

"So many planes; so little time..."
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:43 am

justplanesmart wrote:
L/N 242, the first 747-200F built with a side cargo door, was registered N701SW on delivery.


The same plane made also history, because it was original delivered with JT9D-7F engines , with the promise from Pratt for a re-engine with the new PW JT-9D-70A engine.
See : http://www.seaboardairlines.org/aircraft/jt9d-70a.htm

N701SW, after re-engined with JT9D-70A engines

Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:12 am

747classic wrote:
Viper911 wrote:

- L/N 287, 747-270C, Iraqi Airways, YI-AGN, first convertible with factory installed SCD


Does YI-AGN have the self-loading device?
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:59 am

In Boeing's "self loading device" promotion pictures one of the three Iraqi Airways 747-270C's aircraft was indeed shown.
Most probably YI-AGN or YI-AGO, both delivered in 1976, because YI-AGP was delivered years later (late 1982).

See : https://www.ausairpower.net/loaders.html
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
Max Q
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:36 am

747classic wrote:
In Boeing's "self loading device" promotion pictures one of the three Iraqi Airways 747-270C's aircraft was indeed shown.
Most probably YI-AGN or YI-AGO, both delivered in 1976, because YI-AGP was delivered years later (late 1982).

See : https://www.ausairpower.net/loaders.html



I just realized how clever that self loading device was, initially I thought it was just used to load cargo through the nose door but it appears it could be connected to the side door as well, with its own wheels it looks like it could be easily moved around on the ground, perhaps with a tug then once all freight was loaded it folded itself up into the nose


I wonder if it could be used on the lower hold cargo doors ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:07 am

Why does the 744F and 748F have a shortened upper deck and not a stretched one like the passenger variants?
 
787SIN
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:33 am

UA857 wrote:
Why does the 744F and 748F have a shortened upper deck and not a stretched one like the passenger variants?


Simply because the stretched section was conceived for passengers only and on 744 converted freighters it limits the locations for full height pallets which why the -F maintains the original 747 upper deck size as more space for freight.
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:15 am

What does the A in 747-121A/SF stand for?
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:51 am

UA857 wrote:
What does the A in 747-121A/SF stand for?

-100A model (or simply the original -100) as compared to the improved MTOW -100B.
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:05 am

UA857 wrote:
What does the A in 747-121A/SF stand for?


Starting in November 1970 Pan Am began returning its 747-121 aircraft to Boeing for modification to phase A standard.
The changes primary involved modifications to the side of the body wing ribs, new 30-ply tires and changes to the flaps, fuel system, doors and in-flight entertainment systems.
Also engine upgrades were available (-7, -7A and -7W).
After these structural modifications MTOW could be increased to 755.000 lbs.
Pan Am called the modified aircraft 747-121A's, although Boeing never acknowledged this designation.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:08 am

Anyone know why a 747-400C Convertible wasn't created I mean a 747-400C would've looked like this:

Image

A standard 747-400 airframe with a nose & side cargo door and can be configured for both passenger, cargo or mixed configuration like the 747-200C?
 
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Re: How many 747F were built without a SCD?

Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:32 am

UA857 wrote:
Anyone know why a 747-400C Convertible wasn't created I mean a 747-400C would've looked like this:

Image

A standard 747-400 airframe with a nose & side cargo door and can be configured for both passenger, cargo or mixed configuration like the 747-200C?


Nice picture :)

There was no demand for a 747-400C configuration,
Only 13 747-200C aircraft were ever sold.
And after the SAA combi accident (1987) new main deck fire fighting rules were in established in 1993, practically killing the flexible convertible concept.
744Combi's were produced until 2002, with a main deck halon knock down system, but were less frequently rebuilt from combi to full pax configuration and back.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.

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