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BealineV953
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Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:03 pm

Heathrow Airport Limited’s pre-covid development plan looked like this:

https://aec.heathrowconsultation.com/plans/

For each phase, run the slide show to see the elements.
In that plan:
Phase 1, by 2026:
• The third runway.
Phase 2, by 2030:
• ‘T2A’ extended onto the site of T1.
• ‘T5X’ built to the west of T5.
Phase 3, by 2035:
• ‘T5X’ extended.
• ‘T5XN’ satellite built to the north of ‘T5X’.
Phase 4, by 2050:
• ‘T2A’ further extended onto the site of T1.
• ‘T2C’ satellite built to the east of T2.
• ‘T2D’ satellite built on the site of T3.
• T5X and T5XN extended.

On 5th May John Holland-Kaye, the CEO of HAL, told the House of Commons Transport Committee that the airport's £14billion expansion plan is no longer a priority. “Whether that [the third runway] will be needed we will have to see how things turn out over the next few years. If we are successful in rebuilding the UK economy, we will be needing that in 10 to 15 years' time; if not, then I think we're all in a different world.”
On 29th July in an interview on Channel 4 News, when asked about the third runway Holland-Kaye said that it would not been needed for “10 years”. He did not mention 15 years.
The delay to the third runway does not mean that the redevelopment of the Central Area must also be pushed back. Arguably there would be significant benefit from this work being brought forward.
Terminal 2 will see a significant increase in capacity when ‘T2A’ is extended and ‘T2C’ opens.
Terminal 5 will see a significant increase in capacity if ‘T2D’ was brought forward and were to be treated as an extension of T5 (making it ‘T5E’) instead of an extension of T2. My understanding is that ‘T2D’ is to be connected to both Terminal 2 and Terminal 5.
Terminal 3 is aging and will be demolished. ‘T2D’ is to be largely on the site of T3 Pier 7. Pier 7 does not comply with current Immigration and security protocols; its corridors are shared by departing and arriving passengers with doors (‘valves’) opened and closed to keep departing and arriving passengers apart. This restricts the operational flexibility of 8 of T3’s 20 on-pier gates.

Bringing forward work on T2A, T2C and T2D (‘T5E’) – all within the existing airport boundary - while delaying the third runway would give a revised plan something like this:
Phase 1, by 2026:
• ‘T2A’ extended onto the site of T1.
• ‘T2A’ further extended onto the site of T1.
• ‘T2C’ satellite built to the east of T2.
• ‘T2D’ satellite built on the site of T3.
Phase 2, by 2030:
• The third runway (in “10 years”).
• ‘T5X’ built to the west of T5.
Phase 3, by 2035:
• ‘T5X’ extended.
• ‘T5XN’ satellite built to the north of ‘T5X’.
Phase 4, by 2050:
• T5X and T5XN extended.

Additional capacity at Terminal 2 by 2026 may enable the airlines that have moved from T3 to T2 to stay there. Additional capacity at Terminal 5 by 2026 may enable the recent oneworld airline terminal moves to be permanent without compromising BA’s ability to grow back to pre-Covid capacity.
All this may mean that Terminal 3 does not have to be re-opened. My understanding is that the original plan was for Pier 7 to be demolished to enable ‘T2D’ to be built, while much of the rest of T3 remains in use. So, even if part of T3 is needed again work on T2D could still progress.
No-one knows how long this pandemic will last. However, the world will not stand still. A well-run business must adapt to circumstances.
HAL must have a plan for the scenario in which the third runway does not get approval. Without the third runway T5X and T5XN will not be built; both lie outside the existing airport boundary.
I fully appreciate that HAL’s revenue has taken a hit. However, right now borrowing money is cheap. HAL may now be reworking its redevelopment programme to bring forward the Central Area elements of Phases 2 and 4.

Has HAL recently said anything public about the redevelopment of Heathrow’s Central Area?
Are there any HAL or airline insiders out there who know if HAL is working on a revised development plan, and if you do, are able to share a few clues with us?

Please, I am not asking for speculation; I’ve probably already done enough of that.
Also, this is not about the third runway, that subject has been done to death in other threads.
Rather, I am curious to know if HAL have revised their development plans.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited title for clarity
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
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Cointrin330
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:23 pm

A third runway has been in discussion for LHR since the 1980s. It will never happen.
 
Opus99
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:27 pm

My advice would be to just let the 3rd runway go at this point and just focus on expanding T5 and T2
 
chonetsao
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:57 pm

I thought T2A has always been the first project to finish before anything done to T3. It was in previous planning somewhere sometime (there are so many versions with minor changes). T2C won't happen until T2A is completed and T3 re-design is done. T5X was designated as T6 in the submitted Third Runway master plan with a mid field satellite between new runway and northern runway.

In fact as things going now, if they can open T5X and T2A on time, Heathrow Airport may find enough space to close T4, by then would be so out dated.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:25 pm

Out of curiousity, is the Terminal 5X development as shown on that map purely hypothetical, or have they already drawn up plans for what it will look like? It looks weird with that shape, different from the architectural style set by T5 and T2, and their respective satellites.
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:39 pm

The runway was planned to be operational 'by 2026'. The new information suggests the date it is now 'by 2030'. So taking these statements, that is a delay of 4 years, not 10, which I think everybody felt was inevitable anyway.
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:57 pm

PlymSpotter wrote:
The runway was planned to be operational 'by 2026'. The new information suggests the date it is now 'by 2030'. So taking these statements, that is a delay of 4 years, not 10, which I think everybody felt was inevitable anyway.

I don't think you can set a date in anything but the most abstract way till the project is fully funded and all the land is acquired and cleared.
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:57 pm

Even at that development rate, it's just not going to be enough. This all should have been built decades ago, so it was actually there when it was needed. That's one of the things with London airports, they don't plan ahead. They look at what is needed now, not at what will be needed in the future. These expansion plans are enough to cover the current shortages, but by the time they're finished new shortages will have popped up and these expansions won't be enough to cover them.

Instead of trying to expand Heathrow, which is next to impossible, I think it's better to expand the other London airports instead. With the exception of London City, they all got plenty of room for expansion. Let's say you build a second runway and terminal at Stansted. You might say that would do nothing for airlines at Heathrow, no airline is going to leave Heathrow for Stansted. However if the price is right, they might leave Heathrow for Gatwick. Meanwhile another airline would be willing to move from Gatwick to Stansted, making place at Gatwick for the airline that comes from Heathrow.

Not every airline can get into Heathrow, the airport just doesn't have enough capacity for that. Some airlines will have to take second best, which is Gatwick. And Gatwick can accommodate them if they move some of their airlines to Stansted. Specially LCCs would be all too glad to move from Gatwick to Stansted if they get paid for it.
 
chonetsao
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:08 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Even at that development rate, it's just not going to be enough. This all should have been built decades ago, so it was actually there when it was needed. That's one of the things with London airports, they don't plan ahead. They look at what is needed now, not at what will be needed in the future. These expansion plans are enough to cover the current shortages, but by the time they're finished new shortages will have popped up and these expansions won't be enough to cover them.

Instead of trying to expand Heathrow, which is next to impossible, I think it's better to expand the other London airports instead. With the exception of London City, they all got plenty of room for expansion. Let's say you build a second runway and terminal at Stansted. You might say that would do nothing for airlines at Heathrow, no airline is going to leave Heathrow for Stansted. However if the price is right, they might leave Heathrow for Gatwick. Meanwhile another airline would be willing to move from Gatwick to Stansted, making place at Gatwick for the airline that comes from Heathrow.

Not every airline can get into Heathrow, the airport just doesn't have enough capacity for that. Some airlines will have to take second best, which is Gatwick. And Gatwick can accommodate them if they move some of their airlines to Stansted. Specially LCCs would be all too glad to move from Gatwick to Stansted if they get paid for it.


Your point makes sense. However, the problem is both Gatwick and Stansted would have fierce opposition from local communities. Especially Gatwick. The local resistance group is ultra noisy (and they have the backing of local politicians).

Despite the opposition from Richmond, Teddington and Kingston residences, Heathrow expansion is actually supported by many of local communities in Hounslow and Slough (with condition of course).

What Gatwick should do is to redesign the whole North and South terminal and build a new giant terminal to replace both (on the ground of environmental friendly of course). After that they can lobby for a second runway. As new facility would attracts new airlines and airlines that can not make Heathrow work. Once this is done they may have a chance to build second runway. But I just do not think MAG has the money to do the project.
 
BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:13 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
A third runway has been in discussion for LHR since the 1980s. It will never happen.


Hello. Thanks for your reply, but as in my post, this is not about the third runway, that subject has been done to death in other threads.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 2:41 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Even at that development rate, it's just not going to be enough. This all should have been built decades ago, so it was actually there when it was needed.


What's the evidence that LON has been significantly underserved?
 
BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:23 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Out of curiosity, is the Terminal 5X development as shown on that map purely hypothetical, or have they already drawn up plans for what it will look like?
It looks weird with that shape, different from the architectural style set by T5 and T2, and their respective satellites.


Hello. The designs have changed over time, but here is one of the more recent pictures of the redeveloped airport:

https://www.heathrowexpansion.com/expansion-plan/

As you say, the architecture does not follow the style of T5 or T2.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
chonetsao
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:30 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Out of curiosity, is the Terminal 5X development as shown on that map purely hypothetical, or have they already drawn up plans for what it will look like?
It looks weird with that shape, different from the architectural style set by T5 and T2, and their respective satellites.


Hello. The designs have changed over time, but here is one of the more recent pictures of the redeveloped airport:

https://www.heathrowexpansion.com/expansion-plan/

As you say, the architecture does not follow the style of T5 or T2.


This design is what we got from Heathrow the last time as local residence.
 
BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:36 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I thought T2A has always been the first project to finish before anything done to T3. It was in previous planning somewhere sometime (there are so many versions with minor changes).
T2C won't happen until T2A is completed and T3 re-design is done.
T5X was designated as T6 in the submitted Third Runway master plan with a mid field satellite between new runway and northern runway.


Hello.
You're probably right about the Terminal 2 developments. Whether T2C is built before T2A is finished and whether anything is done with Terminal 3 before Terminal 2 is finished will be in the the detail of the twenty years between completion of Phases 2 and 4:
Phase 2, by 2030:
• ‘T2A’ extended onto the site of T1.
Phase 4, by 2050:
• ‘T2A’ further extended onto the site of T1.
• ‘T2C’ satellite built to the east of T2.
• ‘T2D’ satellite built on the site of T3.

Yes, T5X and certainly T5XN used to be referred to as Terminal 6.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:41 pm

I don't think they will have the money for major projects for a while, revenue is negative and staff are being let go. It will be a while before anything new is started, work being restricted to care and maintenance like the current runway works.
 
BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:48 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Instead of trying to expand Heathrow, which is next to impossible, I think it's better to expand the other London airports instead.


Hello. Thanks for your post.
Expanding Heathrow is certainly very difficult. However, I was trying to focus this thread on the art of the possible; the redevelopment of Heathrow's Central Area. As the CTA is within the existing airport boundary obtaining planning permission is not so difficult.
I was wondering if HAL will put their entire development plan on hold, or replan and complete the work that has started (T2) and needs to be done (T3).
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Sun Aug 16, 2020 3:52 pm

Why just focusing at Heathrow but not try to improve and expand Stantead and Gatwick?
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BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:03 pm

Opus99 wrote:
My advice would be to just let the 3rd runway go at this point and just focus on expanding T5 and T2


Hello.
I'm inclined to agree. In these difficult times, and with approval for the third runway pending, it would be good to see HAL focus on what they can get on with: completing T2 and adding capacity to T5.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
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lhrnue
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:04 pm

When the reality of Covid hit, the majority of capital investment projects got stopped. The few remaining projects recommenced at the end of lockdown and got funding to the end of the year. It appears to me that HAL is currently working on the budgets for next year. Again I would think mainly around which current projects need to continue. There are tentative planned dates when T3 and T4 will come back ... which also influences the plan / spending for next year. E.g. work in an empty terminal can be delivered quicker. Another example is the refurbishment of the Southern runway. Some of the thinking is also around spending on existing infrastrucre rather than new infrastructure, e.g. the remaining infrastructure in T1 need to work longer as the T2 extension is delayed.
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:29 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Even at that development rate, it's just not going to be enough. This all should have been built decades ago, so it was actually there when it was needed. That's one of the things with London airports, they don't plan ahead. They look at what is needed now, not at what will be needed in the future. These expansion plans are enough to cover the current shortages, but by the time they're finished new shortages will have popped up and these expansions won't be enough to cover them.

Instead of trying to expand Heathrow, which is next to impossible, I think it's better to expand the other London airports instead. With the exception of London City, they all got plenty of room for expansion. Let's say you build a second runway and terminal at Stansted. You might say that would do nothing for airlines at Heathrow, no airline is going to leave Heathrow for Stansted. However if the price is right, they might leave Heathrow for Gatwick. Meanwhile another airline would be willing to move from Gatwick to Stansted, making place at Gatwick for the airline that comes from Heathrow.

Not every airline can get into Heathrow, the airport just doesn't have enough capacity for that. Some airlines will have to take second best, which is Gatwick. And Gatwick can accommodate them if they move some of their airlines to Stansted. Specially LCCs would be all too glad to move from Gatwick to Stansted if they get paid for it.

It is thought provoking.

COVID has delayed LHR 3rd runway. This hasn't made it cheaper, if anything it's more expensive now. It has delivered a huge blow to the revenues of the network carriers that serve LHR. In particular a lot of the business travelers that used to need to travel to make things happen have now figured out how to use teleconferencing and it's now acceptable in cases it was not in the past. That could stunt the growth curve at LHR and make it possible to give slots to new entrants without needing a 3rd runway. The ability to finance the 3rd runway project hadn't happened before COVID and it seems it'll be even more difficult after COVID.

On the other hand we're moving past the point in time where the ability to add a runway to LGW is in play since the agreement to not do so is timing out. LGW will still be a cheaper option and another runway there can add diversity and capacity to the LON air ecosystem at a lower cost.

Many would argue that the 3rd runway project was already not going to happen. Maybe COVID is just one more nail in the coffin?
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BNAMealer
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 5:29 pm

chonetsao wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
Even at that development rate, it's just not going to be enough. This all should have been built decades ago, so it was actually there when it was needed. That's one of the things with London airports, they don't plan ahead. They look at what is needed now, not at what will be needed in the future. These expansion plans are enough to cover the current shortages, but by the time they're finished new shortages will have popped up and these expansions won't be enough to cover them.

Instead of trying to expand Heathrow, which is next to impossible, I think it's better to expand the other London airports instead. With the exception of London City, they all got plenty of room for expansion. Let's say you build a second runway and terminal at Stansted. You might say that would do nothing for airlines at Heathrow, no airline is going to leave Heathrow for Stansted. However if the price is right, they might leave Heathrow for Gatwick. Meanwhile another airline would be willing to move from Gatwick to Stansted, making place at Gatwick for the airline that comes from Heathrow.

Not every airline can get into Heathrow, the airport just doesn't have enough capacity for that. Some airlines will have to take second best, which is Gatwick. And Gatwick can accommodate them if they move some of their airlines to Stansted. Specially LCCs would be all too glad to move from Gatwick to Stansted if they get paid for it.


Your point makes sense. However, the problem is both Gatwick and Stansted would have fierce opposition from local communities. Especially Gatwick. The local resistance group is ultra noisy (and they have the backing of local politicians).

Despite the opposition from Richmond, Teddington and Kingston residences, Heathrow expansion is actually supported by many of local communities in Hounslow and Slough (with condition of course).

What Gatwick should do is to redesign the whole North and South terminal and build a new giant terminal to replace both (on the ground of environmental friendly of course). After that they can lobby for a second runway. As new facility would attracts new airlines and airlines that can not make Heathrow work. Once this is done they may have a chance to build second runway. But I just do not think MAG has the money to do the project.


Why does a Gatwick expansion have more opposition than Heathrow? There is not as much development surrounding it.

I’ve long though that Heathrow should focus on rebuilding and interconnecting it’s terminals rather than adding runway capacity. Gatwick OTOH, ought to build a proper second runway either north or south of the current one and then build a giant new midfield terminal to replace the existing ones. Then connect Gatwick and Heathrow via the long proposed Heathwick rail link.
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:05 pm

When Terminal 3 goes I will cherish all the memories I have there, from TWA in 1982 on a flight from Boston to my last BA 747 flight to Miami in September just two weeks after my last Qantas 744ER flight from Sydney to Haneda. In Between I had many Pan AM and TWA with 2 JAL's 777 and a Cathay Pacific 777. In recent years AA 77W have been my favorite planes to and from LHR to Miami & DFW. T3 was the first 747 terminal at Heathrow, I love the old photos with the tales from PA, TWA, SAA, BOAC, Air India and too many others.
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:37 pm

I can't take John Holland-Kaye seriously. We are talking about an airport which was full about 15 years ago, and has only eked out more numbers through more A380s landing and taking off. It's been debated to death on a.net when pax numbers will be back to 2019 levels but for arguments sake lets take the pessimistic time frame of 2024/25. So by then LHR, will again be rammed full, in an environment with probably less A380s, begging for the third runway. You could actually say it will be exactly where it was going to be as an airport prior to 3rd runway opening in 2026 under original plans. Rammed full. So why now say a third runway may not be needed until 2030? It was needed in 2007.

I'm all for T2A (but good grief is that taking an age), T2C,D,T5X etc but for the hub, Heathrow need to pull their thumb out and drive this runway through. Sure they want to invest in expanding the shopping mall, but if a third runway is not needed, than the airport doesn't need by that logic more shopping mall/terminal footprint. The two go together. More pax need more runway and more terminal space, the former of those well over a decade ago.
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:41 pm

BealineV953 wrote:
Expanding Heathrow is certainly very difficult. However, I was trying to focus this thread on the art of the possible; the redevelopment of Heathrow's Central Area. As the CTA is within the existing airport boundary obtaining planning permission is not so difficult.
I was wondering if HAL will put their entire development plan on hold, or replan and complete the work that has started (T2) and needs to be done (T3).

Capital Expenditure permitting, I think that reopening T4 whilst redeveloping the T3 site, makes a lot of sense. But, there is one further aspect that they could consider. In an earlier iteration of the development plan (East Campus / West Campus) ISTR that T3 gates 1, 3, 5 and 7 would be connected to T2 and this could still be done. Emirates, at least, would be quite happy.
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:46 pm

Downturns are the time to expand. Oh well, Dublin and US airlines thank UK planners.

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chonetsao
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:55 pm

BNAMealer wrote:
Why does a Gatwick expansion have more opposition than Heathrow? There is not as much development surrounding it.

I’ve long though that Heathrow should focus on rebuilding and interconnecting it’s terminals rather than adding runway capacity. Gatwick OTOH, ought to build a proper second runway either north or south of the current one and then build a giant new midfield terminal to replace the existing ones. Then connect Gatwick and Heathrow via the long proposed Heathwick rail link.


As I tried to explain, the locals in Gatwick does not want development so does the local politicians. The reason is that Gatwick is surrounded by rural areas, and that is precise the reason why there is more opposition. People live around Gatwick appreciate the rural-ness more than people live around metropolitan and working-class Hounslow and Slough. People live around Gatwick is often more affluent than people live near Heathrow. You have to imagine Gatwick is surrounded by people who would normally live in Richmond, Barnes, Teddington and Kingston, where the most Heathrow expansion opposition lives. Instead of those people live outside the Heathrow core areas, the opposition of Gatwick expansion is actually live in the core Gatwick operational area.

Not to get political, let us say people vote for Lib Dem and Green party in UK will be 100% against the airport expansion without any reason. That is why Richmond and Kingston have fierce objections. Conservative is a fence sitter on expansion issues. This is due to the unfortunate reality that where Lib Dem and Green party voting intention is strong, is often a conservative party held area. Labour party says they are against expansion due to environment concerns but in reality they often are more supportive. That is why Heathrow expansion is voted yes under conservative government but with the help of local labour party from Hounslow and Slough. It can't be voted in when Labour in power as Conservative would side with Lib Dem to save their own votes.

But in Gatwick, it is traditionally Conservative with strong surge of Lib Dem and Green party recently. The local political support is not there. If Conservative sided with Gatwick expansion, many votes will be going to Lib Dem and Green, then there is a danger of the vote splits three ways to Con, Lib Dem and Labour to make the situation messy. If Conservative choose to be against Gatwick expansion, it could at least stop the exodus of voters to Lib Dem who simple can not bear with Labour (politic is toxic).

I am sure some local residence from Gatwick can explain the issues better than me. And I welcome any one who can contribute to this topic. But my understanding is rural area often has more opposition on grand project due to the fact that people choose to live in a rural setting to protect the rural-ness. It is easier to expand in urban areas as it is already built up. Plus, people in urban area is more mobile and supportive of infrastructure projects. Then we have the dreaded local politics...I hope I have explained clearly here.
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Sun Aug 16, 2020 10:06 pm

TedToToe wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
I was wondering if HAL will put their entire development plan on hold, or replan and complete the work that has started (T2) and needs to be done (T3).

Capital Expenditure permitting, I think that reopening T4 whilst redeveloping the T3 site, makes a lot of sense. But, there is one further aspect that they could consider. In an earlier iteration of the development plan (East Campus / West Campus) ISTR that T3 gates 1, 3, 5 and 7 would be connected to T2 and this could still be done. Emirates, at least, would be quite happy.


The Emirates pier is said to be the only part of T3 would be kept. It is still unclear whether there would be a separate check-in and arrival for these gates or it would utilise T2. A small boutique style T3 attached to that pier was discussed. Although there is a Master Plan, part of me thinks Heathrow Airport has not finalised a plan for T3 yet. The current priority is still T2A north (where T1 is).
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:11 pm

Antaras wrote:
Why just focusing at Heathrow but not try to improve and expand Stantead and Gatwick?

Because the government says so. It seems runway is a scarce resource in England, and will continue that way for quite a long time.
If you can only build one, for whatever reason, the case study is quite simple. Having 2 rwy at LHR at capacity, 1 rwy at LGW near to capacity and 1 rwn at STN that is not at capacity but it's hard to pick from the available slots.

3rd runway at LHR would release pressure on the other two that could be used as spare in case of need/disruption (unlikely) or create new slots for airlines to operate. Many airlines "forced" to operate some routes/frequencies away from their main base at LHR would have the chance to consolidate their operation at LHR, releasing that capacity at LGW/STN, with some airlin s that have been "displaced" over the years to LGW/STN...
If you add a 2nd runway at LGW, somewhere... you add some slots that not many airlines would be thrilled to operate. And you would have that scarce resource just idle some good time. And LHR would still be boiling.
Same for STN but even worse bearing in mind that it is not fully saturated. And both LHR and LGW would be still coping with almost 100% capacity..
 
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:03 am

Antaras wrote:
Why just focusing at Heathrow but not try to improve and expand Stantead and Gatwick?


Perhaps review the other billion threads and read the recent govt review.
If you consider market strength, LCY and LGW are still semi dead but LHR is bouncing back ASAP as airlines scramble to get back. LGW long haul's closure indicates the relevant strength of the market. We go round and round and round yet again.

Third runway is likely gone forever if the upcoming high court case goes against them.
 
Leej
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:45 am

Why bother with any of it? By the time the 3rd runway gets built, we'll be teleporting anyway.
 
uta999
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:28 pm

HAL should come out and say the 3rd runway is no longer a viable option. Demand and the finance has evaporated.

Instead use the brown field site to the north for a new T6 and satellite stands, with taxiway access east & west of the existing northern runway. Thus avoiding active runway crossings altogether, once T4 closes.

They should avoid the two villages currently threatened too, stating they have listened to locals and the greens.

T1, T3 and T4 should be demolished and T2/T5 both extended with new satellites over the T3 site.
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:55 pm

Aisak wrote:
Because the government says so. It seems runway is a scarce resource in England, and will continue that way for quite a long time.

If you can only build one, for whatever reason, the case study is quite simple. Having 2 rwy at LHR at capacity, 1 rwy at LGW near to capacity and 1 rwn at STN that is not at capacity but it's hard to pick from the available slots.

3rd runway at LHR would release pressure on the other two that could be used as spare in case of need/disruption (unlikely) or create new slots for airlines to operate. Many airlines "forced" to operate some routes/frequencies away from their main base at LHR would have the chance to consolidate their operation at LHR, releasing that capacity at LGW/STN, with some airlin s that have been "displaced" over the years to LGW/STN...
If you add a 2nd runway at LGW, somewhere... you add some slots that not many airlines would be thrilled to operate. And you would have that scarce resource just idle some good time. And LHR would still be boiling.
Same for STN but even worse bearing in mind that it is not fully saturated. And both LHR and LGW would be still coping with almost 100% capacity..

The government says so in a planning sense, and even that didn't survive the first court challenge.

It won't pass muster till the planners figure out a way to navigate around their own government's climate commitments.

It also won't pass muster till someone figures out how to pay for it, and the government is not willing to be more than a participant, it expects HAL to do the heavy lifting and accept the risk of the inevitable cost overruns.

The main party pushing for this is HAL itself, and it is already financially over-leveraged.

If HAL does take it on, it will eventually go bust and the government will end up dealing with the aftermath, IMO.
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jonas12345
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:36 pm

As others have said, i think that it will be a while before HAL will spend of major infrastructure projects. Whilst this is their norm and the regulation encourages HAL to spend, it doesn't make sense when airlines are in a fragile position and extra spending is just going to increase charges at LHR, already one of the highest in the world.

Redeveloping T3 will always be tricky, given how full LHR is. Also it's not in the best location - tube tunnels underneath and right bang in the middle of the airport. Before Covid, Heathrow were planning on increasing the capacity of T5, and this may still be the best bang for the buck project. But finding space for the residents of T3 whilst knocking it down and rebuilding for 2+ years will not be easy.

The T2B satellite could be built at some point, but that requires moving the Eastern taxiway and hence knocking down a maintenance hanger, which will have to be relocated. Again, not a great use of money right now.

T5E (which appears to be connected to T2) is again not in a great place and looks like it requires a track transit system - these are undoubtedly one of the most expensive pieces of infrastructure to create, and not without risks. Remember this:?

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey ... d-17601515


Don't get me wrong, HAL are desperate to spend money, it is their modus operandi. They are pretty much the only ones still pushing for expansion. But the reality of the situation is that in the past, airlines had no real threat of not flying at Heathrow, whereas now anyone and everyone is vulnerable.
 
uta999
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:00 pm

The UK Government last week announced a massive shift in planning permission rules (Build Build Build) for large building projects, making it easier to gain permission that in the past would have been blocked for a decade.

I wonder if airports are included in these new rules, where no new runways are included and land already earmarked for development is being used.

Perhaps some form of PPP (Public/Private) finance could be included, to make it happen sooner than HAL are in a position to deliver.
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BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:06 pm

lhrnue wrote:
When the reality of Covid hit, the majority of capital investment projects got stopped. The remaining infrastructure in T1 need to work longer as the T2 extension is delayed.


Hello.
Have HAL said that work on the extension of T2 has been delayed?
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
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BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:12 pm

TedToToe wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
Expanding Heathrow is certainly very difficult. However, I was trying to focus this thread on the art of the possible; the redevelopment of Heathrow's Central Area. As the CTA is within the existing airport boundary obtaining planning permission is not so difficult.
I was wondering if HAL will put their entire development plan on hold, or replan and complete the work that has started (T2) and needs to be done (T3).

In an earlier iteration of the development plan (East Campus / West Campus) ISTR that T3 gates 1, 3, 5 and 7 would be connected to T2 and this could still be done. Emirates, at least, would be quite happy.


You're right; there were versions of HAL's plan in which T3 Pier 6 (gates 1, 3, 5 & 7) which is relatively new, survived and was to be connected to T2. However, in the more recent versions of the plan these gates do not survive.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:18 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Downturns are the time to expand.

Lightsaber


I agree entirely.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed for 10 years.

Thu Aug 20, 2020 3:26 pm

chonetsao wrote:
TedToToe wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
I was wondering if HAL will put their entire development plan on hold, or replan and complete the work that has started (T2) and needs to be done (T3).

Capital Expenditure permitting, I think that reopening T4 whilst redeveloping the T3 site, makes a lot of sense. But, there is one further aspect that they could consider. In an earlier iteration of the development plan (East Campus / West Campus) ISTR that T3 gates 1, 3, 5 and 7 would be connected to T2 and this could still be done. Emirates, at least, would be quite happy.


The Emirates pier is said to be the only part of T3 would be kept.
Part of me thinks Heathrow Airport has not finalised a plan for T3 yet.


See the latest plans. Although in earlier plans T3 Pier 6 was to survive and be linked to T2, Pier 6 is not in the latest plans. Demolishing a relatively new Pier does seem odd, but there you have it.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:00 pm

jonas12345 wrote:
The T2B satellite could be built at some point, but that requires moving the Eastern taxiway and hence knocking down a maintenance hanger, which will have to be relocated. Again, not a great use of money right now.
Before Covid, Heathrow were planning on increasing the capacity of T5, and this may still be the best bang for the buck project.
Redeveloping T3 will always be tricky, given how full LHR is. Finding space for the residents of T3 whilst knocking it down and rebuilding for 2+ years will not be easy.
Also it's not in the best location - tube tunnels underneath and right bang in the middle of the airport.
T5E (which appears to be connected to T2) is again not in a great place and looks like it requires a track transit system - these are undoubtedly one of the most expensive pieces of infrastructure to create.


My question is, with the third runway on hold, will HAL do nothing for ten years, or will they reprioritise and focus on the elements of their plan that do not depend on the third runway.
T2 does not depend on the third runway.
For T2B to be built, BA's 'cathedral' hangar will indeed be demolished. HAL's plans show a replacement. However, BA and IAG may decide that a replacement at Heathrow is not needed, pocket the compensation, re-purpose other hangars and move engineering work to Cardiff, Madrid or wherever.
Yes, redeveloping the T3 site will have to be carefully planned. My point is, it'll be easier to do this during this downturn.
As above, my understanding is that T3 Pier 7 is to be demolished to enable ‘T2D’ to be built, while much of the rest of T3 remains in use. So, even if part of T3 is needed again work on T2D could still progress.
Yes, the T3 site with rail and tube tunnels underneath and with T2D ('T5E') requiring a track transit system will be a challenge. However, the HAL plan shows that this is going to be done.
I agree that increasing the capacity of T5 will probably deliver the best bang for buck. However, T5X and T5XN are tied very closely to approval of the third runway, expansion of the airport footprint to the west and the realignment of the M25. With no third runway, T5X and T5XN can't be built. A relatively easy way to add capacity for T5 is to build T2D, but use it for T5, making it 'T5E'.
Last edited by BealineV953 on Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:06 pm

Deleted
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
skipness1E
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:15 pm

Date for the diary :

The Supreme Court has announced that it will hear an appeal from Heathrow Airport and Arora Group on Wednesday 7th and Thursday 8th October 2020 on the plans to expand Heathrow Airport by adding a third runway.
 
BealineV953
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:16 pm

uta999 wrote:
The UK Government last week announced a massive shift in planning permission rules (Build Build Build) for large building projects, making it easier to gain permission that in the past would have been blocked for a decade.

I wonder if airports are included in these new rules, where no new runways are included and land already earmarked for development is being used.

Perhaps some form of PPP (Public/Private) finance could be included, to make it happen sooner than HAL are in a position to deliver.


Yes, we've seen a lot of Boris Johnson in hard hats and high viz jackets in recent weeks saying that he wants the UK to get building. Johnson may not want to encourage Holland-Kaye to build the third runway (he'd have to lie down in front of the bulldozers), but he might want to see HAL get on with the Central Terminal Area re-development work.
Ever since childhood, when I lived within sight of London Airport, I have seldom seen a plane go by and not wished I was on it.”
With apologies to Paul Theroux - ‘The Great Railway Bazaar’
 
jonas12345
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:28 am

BealineV953 wrote:
jonas12345 wrote:
The T2B satellite could be built at some point, but that requires moving the Eastern taxiway and hence knocking down a maintenance hanger, which will have to be relocated. Again, not a great use of money right now.
Before Covid, Heathrow were planning on increasing the capacity of T5, and this may still be the best bang for the buck project.
Redeveloping T3 will always be tricky, given how full LHR is. Finding space for the residents of T3 whilst knocking it down and rebuilding for 2+ years will not be easy.
Also it's not in the best location - tube tunnels underneath and right bang in the middle of the airport.
T5E (which appears to be connected to T2) is again not in a great place and looks like it requires a track transit system - these are undoubtedly one of the most expensive pieces of infrastructure to create.


My question is, with the third runway on hold, will HAL do nothing for ten years, or will they reprioritise and focus on the elements of their plan that do not depend on the third runway.
T2 does not depend on the third runway.
For T2B to be built, BA's 'cathedral' hangar will indeed be demolished. HAL's plans show a replacement. However, BA and IAG may decide that a replacement at Heathrow is not needed, pocket the compensation, re-purpose other hangars and move engineering work to Cardiff, Madrid or wherever.
Yes, redeveloping the T3 site will have to be carefully planned. My point is, it'll be easier to do this during this downturn.
As above, my understanding is that T3 Pier 7 is to be demolished to enable ‘T2D’ to be built, while much of the rest of T3 remains in use. So, even if part of T3 is needed again work on T2D could still progress.
Yes, the T3 site with rail and tube tunnels underneath and with T2D ('T5E') requiring a track transit system will be a challenge. However, the HAL plan shows that this is going to be done.
I agree that increasing the capacity of T5 will probably deliver the best bang for buck. However, T5X and T5XN are tied very closely to approval of the third runway, expansion of the airport footprint to the west and the realignment of the M25. With no third runway, T5X and T5XN can't be built. A relatively easy way to add capacity for T5 is to build T2D, but use it for T5, making it 'T5E'.


My take on it is that Heathrow will not be doing any of this work for a long time. As I mentioned in my first post, Heathrow as a regulated entity are encouraged to spend money, so they will be trying to push capex projects through as much as they can. But in the post-Covid world, the airlines will strongly resist this as any of the projects you mentioned are likely to cause a steep increase in airport charges. The current terminals at Heathrow can manage 480k movements a year, so keeping the lights on will be the priority until balance sheets are rebuilt. That includes Heathrow's, which is highly geared with some covenants that would already been breached barring the recent changes agreed by debtholders.

[as a rough calculation, building a satellite like T2B would cost in the region of £1bn. The way the regulation works is that Heathrow would then earn c.5% WACC on that figure (£50m p.a.) plus get depreciation back (£25m p.a. over say 40years.) So T2B would cost the airlines an extra £75m p.a., or about an extra £1 per passenger flown. That would equate to roughly a 5% increase in airport charges]

I don't think Heathrow have planning permission to redevelop T3 either, i think they got enough to develop T2B but i'm not clear on the details. I suspect that they would rather roll all new planning permission into the current 'on-hold' 3rd runway application, rather than do it separately whilst a decision is still pending. Also, whilst it may make sense to build all this stuff when there aren't many flights, unfortunately that puts even more pressure on the airlines. If you only have half the numbers of passengers to spread the additional costs over, that means airport charges would have to go up even higher.


I can see the next battle lines forming along the arguments of:

Airlines: absolutely do not want an increase in charges at Heathrow, especially as we're now trying to re-build our balance sheets
Heathrow: customers want shiny new terminals and 'monopolist' airlines are trying to block that.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:15 am

It's not that complex, Toronto built new infrastructure by massively ramping charges. The airlines revolted,some tried Hamilton. In the end they paid up. Heathrow isn't in exactly the same pot as there's more competition via LGW/STN/LTN/LCY, but the airlines who would leave are a rounding error in the forecasts. Any airline which left LHR risks allowing one of their competitors in to the gap, and that's a huge risk. If you want decent infrastructure you have to pay for it, now of course there's a balance and "cost cutting is in our DNA" but the medium term strategy is a good one for UK PLC.
 
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flyingphil
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:18 am

I think the longer this saga drags on the less chance there is of a third runway at Heathrow.
The very expensive Howard Davis report that recommended Heathrow for expansion is well out of date.

Just slapping a runway down over a built up area, that also has main roads, vital motorways and transport links is a huge undertaking. Plus you would have to knock down hotels, offices and British Airways Head Office.
Maybe the fairly radical idea of splitting the northern runway into two separate runways is worth a further look
https://heathrowhub.com/

To me the obvious candidate for an additional runway is Stansted.
It has excellent road and rail links to Central London, plus room to expand. There seems to be a certain snobbery against Stansted for some reason, maybe because it is in Essex.

Gatwick has room to expand, but is in a more rural area, although again it does have excellent road and rail links to Central London.

Luton is hemmed in by geography with no room to expand as is London City.

Will check back in ten years or so to see if anything has changed.
 
uta999
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:54 pm

Stansted is not well connected to anything, road or rail are both appalling. It is in the middle of nowhere and has no major international airlines based there.

A new runway there would be as effective for UK aviation as building another at Manston in Kent.

The only place worth building one is LHR. Unfortunately it won’t happen.

You only have to look at the railways since Beeching, or the major road network in the UK. Motorways that just stop randomly on the outskirts of London, rather than join each other in tunnels. Same with the Victorian railways that never join up. Crossrail taking 15 years to open etc.

The mend and make do attitude has been going on for 200 years. It won’t change now.
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Vicenza
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:36 pm

uta999 wrote:
Stansted is not well connected to anything, road or rail are both appalling. It is in the middle of nowhere and has no major international airlines based there.

A new runway there would be as effective for UK aviation as building another at Manston in Kent.

The only place worth building one is LHR. Unfortunately it won’t happen.

You only have to look at the railways since Beeching, or the major road network in the UK. Motorways that just stop randomly on the outskirts of London, rather than join each other in tunnels. Same with the Victorian railways that never join up. Crossrail taking 15 years to open etc.

The mend and make do attitude has been going on for 200 years. It won’t change now.


A bit difficult, if not prohibitively expensive, to 'join up' things which were never designed to be that way when built. Unless of course you're saying that Victorian engineers should somehow have had the vision to foretell how the world would be almost 200 years years into the future (when an aircraft wasn't even remotely thought of)
 
Confuscius
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:40 pm

Which will open first, LHR's third runway or Berlin-Brandenburg Airport? Perhaps never...
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Vicenza
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:51 pm

jonas12345 wrote:
BealineV953 wrote:
jonas12345 wrote:
The T2B satellite could be built at some point, but that requires moving the Eastern taxiway and hence knocking down a maintenance hanger, which will have to be relocated. Again, not a great use of money right now.
Before Covid, Heathrow were planning on increasing the capacity of T5, and this may still be the best bang for the buck project.
Redeveloping T3 will always be tricky, given how full LHR is. Finding space for the residents of T3 whilst knocking it down and rebuilding for 2+ years will not be easy.
Also it's not in the best location - tube tunnels underneath and right bang in the middle of the airport.
T5E (which appears to be connected to T2) is again not in a great place and looks like it requires a track transit system - these are undoubtedly one of the most expensive pieces of infrastructure to create.


My question is, with the third runway on hold, will HAL do nothing for ten years, or will they reprioritise and focus on the elements of their plan that do not depend on the third runway.
T2 does not depend on the third runway.
For T2B to be built, BA's 'cathedral' hangar will indeed be demolished. HAL's plans show a replacement. However, BA and IAG may decide that a replacement at Heathrow is not needed, pocket the compensation, re-purpose other hangars and move engineering work to Cardiff, Madrid or wherever.
Yes, redeveloping the T3 site will have to be carefully planned. My point is, it'll be easier to do this during this downturn.
As above, my understanding is that T3 Pier 7 is to be demolished to enable ‘T2D’ to be built, while much of the rest of T3 remains in use. So, even if part of T3 is needed again work on T2D could still progress.
Yes, the T3 site with rail and tube tunnels underneath and with T2D ('T5E') requiring a track transit system will be a challenge. However, the HAL plan shows that this is going to be done.
I agree that increasing the capacity of T5 will probably deliver the best bang for buck. However, T5X and T5XN are tied very closely to approval of the third runway, expansion of the airport footprint to the west and the realignment of the M25. With no third runway, T5X and T5XN can't be built. A relatively easy way to add capacity for T5 is to build T2D, but use it for T5, making it 'T5E'.


My take on it is that Heathrow will not be doing any of this work for a long time. As I mentioned in my first post, Heathrow as a regulated entity are encouraged to spend money, so they will be trying to push capex projects through as much as they can. But in the post-Covid world, the airlines will strongly resist this as any of the projects you mentioned are likely to cause a steep increase in airport charges. The current terminals at Heathrow can manage 480k movements a year, so keeping the lights on will be the priority until balance sheets are rebuilt. That includes Heathrow's, which is highly geared with some covenants that would already been breached barring the recent changes agreed by debtholders.

[as a rough calculation, building a satellite like T2B would cost in the region of £1bn. The way the regulation works is that Heathrow would then earn c.5% WACC on that figure (£50m p.a.) plus get depreciation back (£25m p.a. over say 40years.) So T2B would cost the airlines an extra £75m p.a., or about an extra £1 per passenger flown. That would equate to roughly a 5% increase in airport charges]

I don't think Heathrow have planning permission to redevelop T3 either, i think they got enough to develop T2B but i'm not clear on the details. I suspect that they would rather roll all new planning permission into the current 'on-hold' 3rd runway application, rather than do it separately whilst a decision is still pending. Also, whilst it may make sense to build all this stuff when there aren't many flights, unfortunately that puts even more pressure on the airlines. If you only have half the numbers of passengers to spread the additional costs over, that means airport charges would have to go up even higher.


I can see the next battle lines forming along the arguments of:

Airlines: absolutely do not want an increase in charges at Heathrow, especially as we're now trying to re-build our balance sheets
Heathrow: customers want shiny new terminals and 'monopolist' airlines are trying to block that.


I fully agree with going what customers (i.e. passengers) want in this instance. What airlines do regarding charges is entirely their choice......after all, they are very vocal about wanting a runway, solely because it suits them alone and let passengers/other entities go to hell. They know they can easily increase the cost of a ticket for that.
 
skipness1E
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Re: Heathrow Airport Limited’s redevelopment plan with the third runway delayed until 2030

Tue Aug 25, 2020 9:00 am

For the 10 millionth time, and the key point of the Holland review, it’s not about how quickly you can get from the airport to your own house, but the economic benefits of an efficient and well connected hub and spoke airport. That is not and never has been Gatwick. But yeah, snobbery.

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Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos