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vfw614
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Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:55 am

French airline Corsair operated the most densely configurated 747 ever - they squeezed in even slightly more seats than ANA and JAL on their domestic 747s. As Corsair operated the 747 on leisure routes to the French DOMTOM destinations (but, IIRC, during peak season occassionally even to Corsica), I was wondering if baggage was an issue - can the freight compartment of an 747-400 fit the typical baggage allowance for almost 600 passengers both size- and weight-wise? Or was there a reduced baggage allowance on those flights (also given the fact that accommodating carry-ons for almost 600 pax in the cabin must also have been a nightmarish challenge)?

Belly cargo was probably not carried on those flights, but still: Is the cargo compartment large enough for, say 800 large suitcases or so? The Japanese 747-400SR never faced this issue as they were exclusively operated on domestic routes that did not require a massive uplift and did mostly carry business travellers/commuters.
 
ethernal
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:23 pm

Cargo hold of the 744 non-ER was around 6000 ft^3. The average checked bag is less than 5 ft^3 - so even with packing inefficiencies (especially in LD containers) it should be able to hold over 1000 bags. More than enough for 600 passengers as most folks/families won't check two bags per head. This is only looking at volume of course, not MTOW.
 
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MD80
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:27 pm

I´ve never seen a seating chart of a 587-seat Boeing 747. Is there some link or source available?

Thanks
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tootallsd
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:41 pm

MD80 wrote:
I´ve never seen a seating chart of a 587-seat Boeing 747. Is there some link or source available?

Thanks


https://www.seatmaestro.com/airplanes-s ... -b747-400/
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:42 pm

Also Corsair would be one of those holiday airlines with a very restrictive bagage policy.
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vfw614
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:53 pm

Although that is the "premium heavy" variant with only 527 seats... An additional 60 seats in the highest density offering menat something like 60 seats on the upper deck and fewer galleys on the main deck.

Further googling unearthed this 13 year old a.net thread where someone - apparently an employee - posted this:

No Corsair has no restriction about bags and cargo. For example on a fully loaded 744 to the Caribbean (PTP ot FDF) , we load 14 AKE bags containers and 5 PAG cargo pallets, the rest in the bulk , which is full of mail and bags. The same applies to the flights for La Reunion, and sometimes for the flights to DKR. As SS has so many cargo for Guadeloupe and Martinique, we load PAG cargo pallets on flights to Punta Cana, where a 727F Lineas Aereas Suramericanas of Colombia dispatch this freight to PTP and FDF. On the flights to Cancun, SS carries cargo for Aeromexico.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=460331&start=50
 
drdisque
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:28 pm

The 744 was a cargo-carrying beast as long as you didn't ask it to fly 14+ hour flights.

These flights at ~9 hours the 744 wasn't breaking a sweat and could take everything you threw at it since it wasn't carrying full fuel.

On the other hand, when UA flew the 744 HKG-ORD, weight and balance for the ORD flight had to be done before the SFO flight (which was scheduled before it due to connection banks at SFO) could leave and leave enough time for cargo bumped from the ORD flight to be put on the SFO flight (assuming it had room).
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:39 pm

This plane would be more comfortable to fly in than today's 787 or 3-4-3 777s.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:45 pm

Ziyulu wrote:
This plane would be more comfortable to fly in than today's 787 or 3-4-3 777s.


No it wont.
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travelsonic
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:52 pm

tootallsd wrote:
MD80 wrote:
I´ve never seen a seating chart of a 587-seat Boeing 747. Is there some link or source available?

Thanks


https://www.seatmaestro.com/airplanes-s ... -b747-400/


I can't put my finger on why, but I am a bit surprised at how the First Class and Premium Economy cabins are set up, both being in the upper hump of the 747 (with regards to lav and galley placement) - as I thought people crossing cabins was often a point of contention, or something often discouraged.
 
raylee67
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:33 pm

Back then, I was expecting Corsair to order the A380 and put 800 seats on the plane.

FlyRow wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
This plane would be more comfortable to fly in than today's 787 or 3-4-3 777s.


No it wont.


From seat-width perspective, I think 3-4-3 on a 744 is better than 3-4-3 on a 777 or a 3-3-3 on a 787. From seat pitch perspective, it really depends on how many rows the airline squeeze into the cabin and that's irrespective of the aircraft type.

But 3-4-3 on a 777 and 3-3-3 on a 787 is really uncomfortable, especially I have flown so many times on 3-3-3 config 777s, then they suddenly became 3-4-3.
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ScottB
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:42 pm

vfw614 wrote:
French airline Corsair operated the most densely configurated 747 ever - they squeezed in even slightly more seats than ANA and JAL on their domestic 747s. As Corsair operated the 747 on leisure routes to the French DOMTOM destinations (but, IIRC, during peak season occassionally even to Corsica), I was wondering if baggage was an issue - can the freight compartment of an 747-400 fit the typical baggage allowance for almost 600 passengers both size- and weight-wise? Or was there a reduced baggage allowance on those flights (also given the fact that accommodating carry-ons for almost 600 pax in the cabin must also have been a nightmarish challenge)?

Belly cargo was probably not carried on those flights, but still: Is the cargo compartment large enough for, say 800 large suitcases or so? The Japanese 747-400SR never faced this issue as they were exclusively operated on domestic routes that did not require a massive uplift and did mostly carry business travellers/commuters.


So... Corsair was operating the 747 largely to beach destinations. Have you ever seen what the French wear to the beach? They probably could have packed what they need for a week in what some women use as a purse. Large suitcases? Doubt it.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:01 pm

travelsonic wrote:
tootallsd wrote:
MD80 wrote:
I´ve never seen a seating chart of a 587-seat Boeing 747. Is there some link or source available?

Thanks


https://www.seatmaestro.com/airplanes-s ... -b747-400/


I can't put my finger on why, but I am a bit surprised at how the First Class and Premium Economy cabins are set up, both being in the upper hump of the 747 (with regards to lav and galley placement) - as I thought people crossing cabins was often a point of contention, or something often discouraged.


Also forces them to deboard premium-economy passengers before business class.

They aren't the only ones to screw up the configuration like that. Emirates 2-class A380s have the second upper-deck cabin blocked because they are located ahead of the business class cabin, blocking business class when leaving the plane. It was also a problem that there was no galley between business class and that cabin, because economy passengers would sneak down into the bar and noise would be heard through the curtain.
 
IFlyVeryLittle
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:09 pm

ScottB wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
French airline Corsair operated the most densely configurated 747 ever - they squeezed in even slightly more seats than ANA and JAL on their domestic 747s. As Corsair operated the 747 on leisure routes to the French DOMTOM destinations (but, IIRC, during peak season occassionally even to Corsica), I was wondering if baggage was an issue - can the freight compartment of an 747-400 fit the typical baggage allowance for almost 600 passengers both size- and weight-wise? Or was there a reduced baggage allowance on those flights (also given the fact that accommodating carry-ons for almost 600 pax in the cabin must also have been a nightmarish challenge)?

Belly cargo was probably not carried on those flights, but still: Is the cargo compartment large enough for, say 800 large suitcases or so? The Japanese 747-400SR never faced this issue as they were exclusively operated on domestic routes that did not require a massive uplift and did mostly carry business travellers/commuters.


So... Corsair was operating the 747 largely to beach destinations. Have you ever seen what the French wear to the beach? They probably could have packed what they need for a week in what some women use as a purse. Large suitcases? Doubt it.



I only wish A,net had a like button for this response
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:48 pm

drdisque wrote:
The 744 was a cargo-carrying beast as long as you didn't ask it to fly 14+ hour flights.

These flights at ~9 hours the 744 wasn't breaking a sweat and could take everything you threw at it since it wasn't carrying full fuel.


Ding ding ding!

They won't cube out, and they certainly won't need max fuel for a ~4,300 sm distance. They got favorable departure elevations, and typically favorable PAR temps westbound, too.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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MD80
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:49 pm

FlyRow wrote:
MD80 wrote:
I´ve never seen a seating chart of a 587-seat Boeing 747. Is there some link or source available?

Thanks

https://www.seatmaestro.com/airplanes-s ... -b747-400/

First hit on google.



This layout doesn´t show 587 seats.
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kabq737
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:07 pm

IFlyVeryLittle wrote:
ScottB wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
French airline Corsair operated the most densely configurated 747 ever - they squeezed in even slightly more seats than ANA and JAL on their domestic 747s. As Corsair operated the 747 on leisure routes to the French DOMTOM destinations (but, IIRC, during peak season occassionally even to Corsica), I was wondering if baggage was an issue - can the freight compartment of an 747-400 fit the typical baggage allowance for almost 600 passengers both size- and weight-wise? Or was there a reduced baggage allowance on those flights (also given the fact that accommodating carry-ons for almost 600 pax in the cabin must also have been a nightmarish challenge)?

Belly cargo was probably not carried on those flights, but still: Is the cargo compartment large enough for, say 800 large suitcases or so? The Japanese 747-400SR never faced this issue as they were exclusively operated on domestic routes that did not require a massive uplift and did mostly carry business travellers/commuters.


So... Corsair was operating the 747 largely to beach destinations. Have you ever seen what the French wear to the beach? They probably could have packed what they need for a week in what some women use as a purse. Large suitcases? Doubt it.



I only wish A,net had a like button for this response


If there was a like button I’d also like this.
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SueD
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:07 pm

VSMUT wrote:
travelsonic wrote:
tootallsd wrote:


I can't put my finger on why, but I am a bit surprised at how the First Class and Premium Economy cabins are set up, both being in the upper hump of the 747 (with regards to lav and galley placement) - as I thought people crossing cabins was often a point of contention, or something often discouraged.


Also forces them to deboard premium-economy passengers before business class.

They aren't the only ones to screw up the configuration like that. Emirates 2-class A380s have the second upper-deck cabin blocked because they are located ahead of the business class cabin, blocking business class when leaving the plane. It was also a problem that there was no galley between business class and that cabin, because economy passengers would sneak down into the bar and noise would be heard through the curtain.


They were bl**dy package holiday flights; even the front seats were going to cruises villas or hotels within the Tui group and were just as likely to be boarding to same coach transfers as those in the back on landing.

Frankly priority boarding at Orly wasn’t really not part of the deal .

As for 527 seat two class Emirates planes , used on secondary Uk sub continent and Bangkok routes; again most are tourists rather than business travellers and several airports including Manchester have only two bridges anyway.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:12 pm

FlyRow wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
This plane would be more comfortable to fly in than today's 787 or 3-4-3 777s.


No it wont.

I Agree it wouldn't be. not the 343 nor any other config. I worked for a charter outfit that had a 3-5-3 main Cabin config for 525 pax on a 747-100 and -200 the cabins were miserable. and we flew JFK to ATH/Rome/ CDG and STN. I just now burned all my miles gathered in having to Maint. Rep those airplanes. Damn near 30 years later. Luckily for me? the company bought all our Tickets via United Airlines where I later spent 33 years working at. In my early years at United? I believed they hired me Just to get back their Miles. And I sure burned (spent) them and a lot of them at the Westin and Hilton hotels all over the world..
 
TheWorm123
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:19 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
This plane would be more comfortable to fly in than today's 787 or 3-4-3 777s.


No it wont.

I Agree it wouldn't be. not the 343 nor any other config. I worked for a charter outfit that had a 3-5-3 main Cabin config for 525 pax on a 747-100 and -200 the cabins were miserable. and we flew JFK to ATH/Rome/ CDG and STN. I just now burned all my miles gathered in having to Maint. Rep those airplanes. Damn near 30 years later. Luckily for me? the company bought all our Tickets via United Airlines where I later spent 33 years working at. In my early years at United? I believed they hired me Just to get back their Miles. And I sure burned (spent) them and a lot of them at the Westin and Hilton hotels all over the world..

That charter company wasn’t Tower Air was it?
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workhorse
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:03 pm

FlyRow wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
This plane would be more comfortable to fly in than today's 787 or 3-4-3 777s.


No it wont.


Yes it would. I've flown Corsair's 747s and I would choose them over the 787 and the 10-abreast 777 any day. They had regular 31'-32' pitch and regular 747 seat width (and of coursethe signature 747 feeling of spaciousness). The high capacity came from the absence of J on the lower deck.
 
DDR
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:42 pm

workhorse wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
This plane would be more comfortable to fly in than today's 787 or 3-4-3 777s.


No it wont.


Yes it would. I've flown Corsair's 747s and I would choose them over the 787 and the 10-abreast 777 any day. They had regular 31'-32' pitch and regular 747 seat width (and of coursethe signature 747 feeling of spaciousness). The high capacity came from the absence of J on the lower deck.


You make a very good point. The 747 is a huge plane but F and J on the main deck take up a very large amount of space. Without those cabins, you can fit a shitload of seats and still have a decent amount of pitch. Same of course would apply to the A380 or any large aircraft.
 
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aeromoe
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:08 am

ScottB wrote:
Have you ever seen what the French wear to the beach? Large suitcases? Doubt it.


This. :rotfl: Great answer!
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workhorse
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:42 am

DDR wrote:
workhorse wrote:
FlyRow wrote:

No it wont.


Yes it would. I've flown Corsair's 747s and I would choose them over the 787 and the 10-abreast 777 any day. They had regular 31'-32' pitch and regular 747 seat width (and of coursethe signature 747 feeling of spaciousness). The high capacity came from the absence of J on the lower deck.


You make a very good point. The 747 is a huge plane but F and J on the main deck take up a very large amount of space. Without those cabins, you can fit a shitload of seats and still have a decent amount of pitch. Same of course would apply to the A380 or any large aircraft.


Exactly. Actually, it's easy to verify: find a seat map of a Corsair 747 and of a 747 of any legacy (AF, LH, UA...) from the same period and compare the number of rows in the two rear cabins. It's the same.
 
BHM
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:46 am

Looking at the seating chart has me wondering about the view from the first few rows. Being angled in towards the nose, is the forward view looking outside much better than seats further back?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, I have never been privileged to fly in 747.
 
69bug
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:11 am

On a typical Jumbo with 3 class layout you would use only around half the volume. In the old days LD3 containers would be used to load bags and these would later be loaded in the rear hold. Later on when connecting times were cut it was essential to get the transfer bags (with connecting flights) off the planes as soon as possible so we loaded bags front and rear with the transfer bags near the door.

Also on most carriers the volume was not maxed out as the 'wing' of the LD3 (AKE/AVE) container was limited to enable commonality across other aircraft types like DC10/MD11/A310/300/330/340. The only widespread user of the LD3 with full wings (AKC) was BA. My guess is the unused space would be around 0.5m3 so a typical load of 14containers wuld mean wasted space of around 7m3.

My first thought when I saw the proposed layout for the A3xx (as it was initially) was that there would be not much space for cargo.

bug
 
69bug
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:18 am

BHM wrote:
Looking at the seating chart has me wondering about the view from the first few rows. Being angled in towards the nose, is the forward view looking outside much better than seats further back?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, I have never been privileged to fly in 747.


Yes.. if you were sitting on the left and the aircraft had a strong crosswind from the right you would get a straight view of the runway up to the last 50 feet or so when the pilot kicked it straight.

Talking about the forward cabin and high density seating, there was also a single seat in the middle zone with the stairs just behind you... no one on the left and no one on the right. This is the area where you would find the triangular table on 747s with a First or Business class cabin. I had a window seat and told myself I must get on that seat the next time but never managed it.

bug
 
Antarius
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:54 am

FlyRow wrote:
MD80 wrote:
I´ve never seen a seating chart of a 587-seat Boeing 747. Is there some link or source available?

Thanks

https://www.seatmaestro.com/airplanes-s ... -b747-400/

First hit on google.


Well, 497 + 12 + 18 isn't 587. So nope, not the answer.
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Antarius
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:55 am

BHM wrote:
Looking at the seating chart has me wondering about the view from the first few rows. Being angled in towards the nose, is the forward view looking outside much better than seats further back?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, I have never been privileged to fly in 747.


Its a great view. I was fortunate as a young child to be in F in a 747 coming in to Kai Tak. Breathtaking approach from the nose.
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AOMlover
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:28 am

Corsair's 747-400 cabin was modified in 2011 from a 582 seat configuration (24Y+ / 558Y) to a 536 seat configuration (36Y+ / 500Y).

Seat capacity was further reduced in 2017 when they introduced a proper business class on a section of the upper deck. Those were refurbished NEV 4 business class seats from Air France.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:20 am

AOMlover wrote:
Corsair's 747-400 cabin was modified in 2011 from a 582 seat configuration (24Y+ / 558Y) to a 536 seat configuration (36Y+ / 500Y).

Seat capacity was further reduced in 2017 when they introduced a proper business class on a section of the upper deck. Those were refurbished NEV 4 business class seats from Air France.


I flew one of these in 2016 from Orly to Guadeloupe to connect with a repositioning cruise to Italy. Top deck, excellent French service and meals. It would not be the same in a single decker!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:13 pm

I only flew SS once return, on the 743, one with "premium" seats on the upper deck (I was on the lower one). It was a charter flight to Canada so I've no experience of regular flights, however the French DOM-TOMs, while being beach destinations (well the ones SS goes to anyway), are also O-D/VFR destinations. Students going to Metropolitan France for a year, workers going back to see their families, etc. You wouldn't expect these people to pack light !
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vfw614
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:38 pm

ScottB wrote:
So... Corsair was operating the 747 largely to beach destinations. Have you ever seen what the French wear to the beach? They probably could have packed what they need for a week in what some women use as a purse. Large suitcases? Doubt it.


DOM/TOM-Paris flights also mean quite a bit of VFR-traffic. And judging by flights to Caribbean destinations, folks living in those places often tend to bring everything but the kitchen sink when returning home because of the high cost of goods in those places..
 
rampbro
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:01 pm

ScottB wrote:
So... Corsair was operating the 747 largely to beach destinations. Have you ever seen what the French wear to the beach? They probably could have packed what they need for a week in what some women use as a purse. Large suitcases? Doubt it.


I used to watch the offload onto the customs belt at YUL. Exactly the opposite of this. High summer travellers, lots going on randonee; 80l packs, big tent bags, etc. The 747 bus after the SS crowd made it through customs always sucked.
 
Thibault973
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:27 pm

ScottB wrote:

So... Corsair was operating the 747 largely to beach destinations. Have you ever seen what the French wear to the beach? They probably could have packed what they need for a week in what some women use as a purse. Large suitcases? Doubt it.


In the peak summer season a huge hunk of SS passengers to PTP/FDF are NOT from package holiday but rather VFR driven. Around 1 million Overseas French live in mainland France hence why you see up to 9 daily flights each to PTP (in fact, Paris-PTP is right in the top 10 busiest transatlantique city pairs) and FDF operated by super-dense aircrafts in summer and around public holidays. Of those 1 million, a big chunk are public workers who get "congés bonifiés" which are subsidised bi-annual leave, where plane tickets to travel back home are paid for by the Governement.
 
B-HOP
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:40 am

AOMlover wrote:
Corsair's 747-400 cabin was modified in 2011 from a 582 seat configuration (24Y+ / 558Y) to a 536 seat configuration (36Y+ / 500Y).

Seat capacity was further reduced in 2017 when they introduced a proper business class on a section of the upper deck. Those were refurbished NEV 4 business class seats from Air France.


And real shame they have to go, the yield might not be high, but loads certainly are, looks like they make some money out of that even their financial performance were mixed bag. Which also makes me think of the old VS LGW based 744, which seats around 470 and Wamos Air, in fact, bar a few PW powered A330-200 and one GE powered 747-400 ex NZ, Wamos and Corsair, they operates similar fleets (PW 747-400 and RR A330-200/300)
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747classic
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:02 am

Also several Corsair 747-200B's operated in high density configuration.

When L/N 170, c/n 20427, 747-206B (ex KLM PH-BUG) was sold to Corsair in 1995, the aircraft received a HMV, incl. aging aircraft checks and a cabin configuration change.
At that time i was receiving my one week/year type recurrent hangar training at AMS and watched the cabin configuration first hand.
Re-registered F-GPJM the aircraft was ferried Amsterdam-Paris Orly as CRL099 in full color scheme with 534 economy seats at July 01th 1995
First in service Paris Orly-Fort de France
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
curlowl
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:43 am

VSMUT wrote:
travelsonic wrote:
tootallsd wrote:


I can't put my finger on why, but I am a bit surprised at how the First Class and Premium Economy cabins are set up, both being in the upper hump of the 747 (with regards to lav and galley placement) - as I thought people crossing cabins was often a point of contention, or something often discouraged.


Also forces them to deboard premium-economy passengers before business class.

They aren't the only ones to screw up the configuration like that. Emirates 2-class A380s have the second upper-deck cabin blocked because they are located ahead of the business class cabin, blocking business class when leaving the plane. It was also a problem that there was no galley between business class and that cabin, because economy passengers would sneak down into the bar and noise would be heard through the curtain.


My parents flew to FDF with them a few times: the FO would come to the back of the upper-deck cabin and block Premium Economy passengers from leaving before the First Class passengers. My parents felt that it was quite strange and impractical, that's why they remembered it
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:48 am

FlyRow wrote:
Ziyulu wrote:
This plane would be more comfortable to fly in than today's 787 or 3-4-3 777s.


No it wont.



Wouldnt the seats be wider??
 
VSMUT
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:52 am

curlowl wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
travelsonic wrote:

I can't put my finger on why, but I am a bit surprised at how the First Class and Premium Economy cabins are set up, both being in the upper hump of the 747 (with regards to lav and galley placement) - as I thought people crossing cabins was often a point of contention, or something often discouraged.


Also forces them to deboard premium-economy passengers before business class.

They aren't the only ones to screw up the configuration like that. Emirates 2-class A380s have the second upper-deck cabin blocked because they are located ahead of the business class cabin, blocking business class when leaving the plane. It was also a problem that there was no galley between business class and that cabin, because economy passengers would sneak down into the bar and noise would be heard through the curtain.


My parents flew to FDF with them a few times: the FO would come to the back of the upper-deck cabin and block Premium Economy passengers from leaving before the First Class passengers. My parents felt that it was quite strange and impractical, that's why they remembered it


That's a bit weird indeed. I've flown their A330 some times. Often in Orly, the stairs will be attached to the second door, and premium economy will be let out first.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:43 pm

On a certain configuration with Delta's 757, Y gets off before F when the second door is being used.
 
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BubbleFrog
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:36 pm

BHM wrote:
Looking at the seating chart has me wondering about the view from the first few rows. Being angled in towards the nose, is the forward view looking outside much better than seats further back?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, I have never been privileged to fly in 747.

It's not a stupid question. Yes, you can see a bit, and depending on the wind quite a bit, as was said before. I thought it wasn't THAT much, to be honest, but I was quite impressed by it when I had my one and only chance to sit in the nose.

It's more different that that much more.
Absolute Relativist
 
carl50mq
Posts: 34
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:39 pm

ScottB wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
French airline Corsair operated the most densely configurated 747 ever - they squeezed in even slightly more seats than ANA and JAL on their domestic 747s. As Corsair operated the 747 on leisure routes to the French DOMTOM destinations (but, IIRC, during peak season occassionally even to Corsica), I was wondering if baggage was an issue - can the freight compartment of an 747-400 fit the typical baggage allowance for almost 600 passengers both size- and weight-wise? Or was there a reduced baggage allowance on those flights (also given the fact that accommodating carry-ons for almost 600 pax in the cabin must also have been a nightmarish challenge)?

Belly cargo was probably not carried on those flights, but still: Is the cargo compartment large enough for, say 800 large suitcases or so? The Japanese 747-400SR never faced this issue as they were exclusively operated on domestic routes that did not require a massive uplift and did mostly carry business travellers/commuters.


So... Corsair was operating the 747 largely to beach destinations. Have you ever seen what the French wear to the beach? They probably could have packed what they need for a week in what some women use as a purse. Large suitcases? Doubt it.

Apart from the fact that French people's dressing to the beach amazes some of us, I can tell you that Corsair used to operate these high density aircrafts on a daily basis to FDF, PTP and RUN from ORY without any recurrent issues.
Economy class pax where limited to a 25kg baggage each, and I felt like they used to bring an other 25kg of bags in the cabin.
More weight or more bags were allowed, as soon as you accepted to open the wallet.
Last edited by carl50mq on Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
B-HOP
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:51 am

69bug wrote:
On a typical Jumbo with 3 class layout you would use only around half the volume. In the old days LD3 containers would be used to load bags and these would later be loaded in the rear hold. Later on when connecting times were cut it was essential to get the transfer bags (with connecting flights) off the planes as soon as possible so we loaded bags front and rear with the transfer bags near the door.

Also on most carriers the volume was not maxed out as the 'wing' of the LD3 (AKE/AVE) container was limited to enable commonality across other aircraft types like DC10/MD11/A310/300/330/340. The only widespread user of the LD3 with full wings (AKC) was BA. My guess is the unused space would be around 0.5m3 so a typical load of 14containers wuld mean wasted space of around 7m3.

My first thought when I saw the proposed layout for the A3xx (as it was initially) was that there would be not much space for cargo.

bug


You mean using LD3 bins even 747 and ONLY 747 can use LD1 bins side by side, which other operators also uses LD1 containers?
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SAAB35Draken
Posts: 1
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:26 am

These +580 seats Corsair 747-400 used to fly from Stockholm(ARN) to Phuket and Bangkok for about 5-6 years(winter seasons)
They were wetleased by TUI Travel Nordic.
I flew them twice from Arlanda to Phuket.
It was all economy seating on the maindeck. It did not feel cramped at all despite all seats.
In my opinion I felt more cramped when I flew LHR-IAH with United Airlines B787-8(3-3-3)and DOH-BKK with Qatar Airways B777-300ER(3-4-3)
Those 744 were always fully booked from Sweden to Thailand and with infants it was common with a total of more than 600 passengers.
I never heard of any weight and balance issus.
When those 744 flew fully booked between Stockholm and Bangkok/Phuket they normally carried 17 AKE containers with checked-in luggage.
 
B-HOP
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Fri Aug 21, 2020 5:56 am

May I also ask, apart from KE, did anyone adopt designs that allows 742 to store luggage on carts on main door, like the middle config on page 28 on Boeing's material ? https://www.boeing.com/resources/boeing ... _123sp.pdf, were the carts loaded by catering truck? I believe DC10 also allows this and LH used that before, also, apart from First 4 with Qantas, did any 747 operators adopt underfloor gallery concepts, thanks.

Kev
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kelval
Posts: 34
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:37 am

ScottB wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
French airline Corsair operated the most densely configurated 747 ever - they squeezed in even slightly more seats than ANA and JAL on their domestic 747s. As Corsair operated the 747 on leisure routes to the French DOMTOM destinations (but, IIRC, during peak season occassionally even to Corsica), I was wondering if baggage was an issue - can the freight compartment of an 747-400 fit the typical baggage allowance for almost 600 passengers both size- and weight-wise? Or was there a reduced baggage allowance on those flights (also given the fact that accommodating carry-ons for almost 600 pax in the cabin must also have been a nightmarish challenge)?

Belly cargo was probably not carried on those flights, but still: Is the cargo compartment large enough for, say 800 large suitcases or so? The Japanese 747-400SR never faced this issue as they were exclusively operated on domestic routes that did not require a massive uplift and did mostly carry business travellers/commuters.


So... Corsair was operating the 747 largely to beach destinations. Have you ever seen what the French wear to the beach? They probably could have packed what they need for a week in what some women use as a purse. Large suitcases? Doubt it.

Aside from the funny comment, it just shows how uninformed you are.

When those destinations's status changed from colonies to departements, they brought the medical facilities close to the mainland standards, wich resulted in an insane natural population growth, wich a couple decades later led to large population movements to study and find work on the mainland. And the come back regularly to visit the family, or the reverse.

Several people mentioned how dense the liaison is to the french Antilles, it's the same for Reunion Island.

I grew up there and flew a good dozen of times to the mainland between 1980 and 2005. I can assure you that the travellers on the flights used every single allowed gram they could, paying hefty sums for the overweight checked luggage, and even more, filling the handbags to the brim ( I remember a 16kg handbag once when I was 13). That was before they started checking the cabin luggage weight.

And if, as a tourist, you come to Reunion Island with only your swimsuit, you're borderline stupid. It's a 3000m high mountain and an active volcano in the middle of the ocean. During the austral winter, temperatures often go below the freezing point in the mountains ( and it's damn cold regardless of the season during the nights when you go past 2000m high).

I flew on those high density UU flights back in the days, and they didn't feel any different than the Y Air France 747 flights.
I remember when the 747-400 were finally put on the rotation at the very end of the 90ies , because we didn't have to stop anymore for 2hrs in Nairobi's heat, forbidden to leave the plane.
It's a 7500 NM flight and the planes were definitely weight/range challenged, even more because the runway wasn't extremely long. The new "long" runway was delivered around the same time the 747-400 were put on the rotation, so it's hard to know what the main reason was for the change to nonstop flights.

I also flew on the 10 abreast AF 777 COI , and the 747 were clearly superior comfort wise.
 
69bug
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:28 pm

Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:20 pm

B-HOP wrote:
69bug wrote:
On a typical Jumbo with 3 class layout you would use only around half the volume. In the old days LD3 containers would be used to load bags and these would later be loaded in the rear hold. Later on when connecting times were cut it was essential to get the transfer bags (with connecting flights) off the planes as soon as possible so we loaded bags front and rear with the transfer bags near the door.

Also on most carriers the volume was not maxed out as the 'wing' of the LD3 (AKE/AVE) container was limited to enable commonality across other aircraft types like DC10/MD11/A310/300/330/340. The only widespread user of the LD3 with full wings (AKC) was BA. My guess is the unused space would be around 0.5m3 so a typical load of 14containers wuld mean wasted space of around 7m3.

My first thought when I saw the proposed layout for the A3xx (as it was initially) was that there would be not much space for cargo.

bug


You mean using LD3 bins even 747 and ONLY 747 can use LD1 bins side by side, which other operators also uses LD1 containers?


B-HOP, that is correct. LD1 (thanks for reminding me of the term) only fits side by side in the 747. On other aircraft if you need to load them you can only load one and the wing of the container will face the centreline so no pairing.

bug
 
VC10DC10
Posts: 670
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Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Fri Aug 21, 2020 3:46 pm

kelval wrote:
It's a 7500 NM flight
ORY-RUN is more like 5,050 NM, but yes, that's quite a long way for a fully-loaded aircraft operating off a fairly short runway.
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8826
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

Re: Corsair's 587-seat 747-400s

Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:43 am

587 + 20 crew + non-revs in the last few spare jumpseats already gets you way past 600, but wait — because this was a leisure/VFR airline, that means lots of families, so 20 babies on laps was routine. So you’re talking about >630 souls on board. Nearly as many as the record-breaking Qantas evacuation flight out of Darwin after Cyclone Tracy, Christmas 1974, which was 674.

I flew SS twice to Guadeloupe (hunting for the wrecks of the two 707s Air France crashed into the same mountain four years apart) and found them perfectly comfortable, normal 747 config (3-4-3, 31” pitch). They reached the numbers simply by having all economy on the main deck, radome to pressure dome.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz

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